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Ripp
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California bans lead bullets
      #93175 - 02/01/08 02:11 AM

Just read an article that Gov. Schwartzenage signed a bill that will outlaw the use in many areas in California---suites are flying.. but fear is it could spread to other parts of the nation..

Ripp

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9.3x57
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: Ripp]
      #93184 - 02/01/08 03:39 AM

This has been kicked around for years.

We all need to get together on this one.

Sweden moved to ban lead bullets, and apparently a variety of research was used to defeat the measure. I may be able to locate some of that data.

IIRC, one of the studies apparently involved a battlefield where some bullets were known to have been fired circa 1600's. Thus they had lots of time to oxidise. Tests in surrounding soil indicated very little or no migration of lead. SOME acidic soils have been linked to lead oxidation and migration but I would love to hear from some of our technically-aware folks here who might have some specialty in this area.

I read quite a while ago that the BS-politics of lead in CA involved the fear of ingestion by endangered condors eating gutpiles from hunted game animals. This seems so absurd that it could only be an April Fools joke.

Anyway, COPPER is as toxic, or more so, and represents another place for the antigunners to address the issue in environmental terms. Also, I have read of monolithic bullets being linked to logging equipment damage and hazards to loggers.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93228 - 02/01/08 04:30 PM

Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. When Californica has clean air, 100% clean streams and rivers, clean minds maybe they should start worrying about inconsequential issues like lead bullets. Idiots.

Quote:

I read quite a while ago that the BS-politics of lead in CA involved the fear of ingestion by endangered condors eating gutpiles from hunted game animals.



Maybe better training for hunters so they don't shoot animals in the gut would be the answer. Was any EVIDENCE ever produced to support that silly theory. Evidence I think would be far from it, merely another attack on hunting and shooting by the Terminator.

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albertan
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: NitroX]
      #93234 - 02/01/08 05:06 PM

This is my opinion only, but I do believe that this is really a legal means of shutting down, or otherwise prohibiting shooting ranges.

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ArnoldB
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: albertan]
      #93239 - 02/01/08 05:53 PM

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/California_lead_bullet_ban_moves_forward





Edited by ArnoldB (02/01/08 05:59 PM)

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Yochanan
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: ArnoldB]
      #93247 - 02/01/08 11:59 PM


The ban in Sweden was lifted as the new government decided bans or regulations shall be based of scientific facts. I know there are a number studies stating that metallic lead is not a problem. We are most fortunate to have a minister of agriculture that actually knows his trade and is not some armchair expert that thinks milk comes from a machine, macaroni grow on trees and predators are cute furry and cuddly like in Disney movies.

Lead or no lead - California’s condors will most likely be extinct in a near future due to breeding problems.
I would not be surprised if some of the bullets manufacturers been “supporting” this ban in order to expand markets and close out competitors manufacturing cup n’ core bullets with lead.

Johan

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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9.3x57
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: Yochanan]
      #93252 - 03/01/08 01:16 AM

Quote:


The ban in Sweden was lifted as the new government decided bans or regulations shall be based of scientific facts. I know there are a number studies stating that metallic lead is not a problem. We are most fortunate to have a minister of agriculture that actually knows his trade and is not some armchair expert that thinks milk comes from a machine, macaroni grow on trees and predators are cute furry and cuddly like in Disney movies.

Lead or no lead - California’s condors will most likely be extinct in a near future due to breeding problems.
I would not be surprised if some of the bullets manufacturers been “supporting” this ban in order to expand markets and close out competitors manufacturing cup n’ core bullets with lead.

Johan



Johan, thanks for posting.

I believe the editor of Svensk Jakt magazine kept abreast of this issue and may have published some articles during the debate or legislative process. Are you familiar with any published sources of lead bullet studies?

Also, I would not doubt for one minute that you are right about business competition being a source of possible misinformation. For example, obviously, a monolithic, homogenous bullet made from a copper alloy devoid of lead will not, by definition, add lead to the environment. Would the removal of one bullet type help another industry or product?

Any metallic bullet material can be attacked by virtue of merely being added to the environment, and unless there is clear scientific data and health threats, a "witch hunt" can sweep up ALL bullets.

We have kicked the dead horse of fear over fact and supposition over substance ruling American culture but this is an issue that highlights it.

In my opinion there is no reason to ban lead bullets unless clear fact demands it. Otherwise ignore the lead shot at critters in the woods and rejoice in the riffle range backstop as a mining resource.

ENGLISHMEN;

WHAT ABOUT SANDRINGHAM??? HUGE QUANTITIES OF LEAD SHOT WERE FIRED AT PHEASANTS OVER THE YEARS THERE. WHAT HEALTH ISSUES HAVE ARISEN THERE? ANY INVOLVING LEAD MIGRATION? AND THAT IS SHOTGUN WHERE FINE SHOT, THE "WORST" KIND IS BEING DEPOSITED. COMMENTS??

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JabaliHunter
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93268 - 03/01/08 03:46 AM

Quote:

ENGLISHMEN;

WHAT ABOUT SANDRINGHAM??? HUGE QUANTITIES OF LEAD SHOT WERE FIRED AT PHEASANTS OVER THE YEARS THERE. WHAT HEALTH ISSUES HAVE ARISEN THERE? ANY INVOLVING LEAD MIGRATION? AND THAT IS SHOTGUN WHERE FINE SHOT, THE "WORST" KIND IS BEING DEPOSITED. COMMENTS??



Well over here they banned lead shot for all waterfowl (or shooting over water) and the impact of leadshot accumulation on land has certainly been examined with a view to a ban by the powers that be.

I believe that much of the science used to support the original ban for waterfowl has since been refuted, but just like the ban on handguns, when they found out that gun crime is still rising despite a handgun ban, they didn´t allow us to have them back again. Can you believe that the British Olympic teams had to travel abroad for practice in the past?! Now I think they are getting special dispensation for 2012 in London (I think it is only .22 now anyway...)

We also have a velocity limit on military shooting ranges (i.e. just about every official range in the country). I can´t quote the numbers off the top of my head, but it is not particularly fast. I believe there is an energy limit too, which creates problems for some big NE cartridges. I will look up the numbers and post later.

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9.3x57
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #93274 - 03/01/08 04:40 AM

Jabali:

Thanks for the info.

Don't you have to use FMJ's at most rifle ranges there in the UK? If so, is that a lead containment issue or is that to prevent undue destruction of the ranges?

Lead poisoning in waterfowl is primarily an issue involving the grinding of lead shot in bird crops IIRC, specifically lead shot taken up by diving ducks, and when reduced to such small particles some health issues may arise, though I am not certain if that has been conclusively proven, or if the mechanical processes were isolated and health threats merely interpolated from the possibilities presented.

Small lead particulates can cause health problems, though, but the particle size has to be very small from what I have read, and I mean very small. As in lead pollution which gets in the ground from auto emissions or massive lead dust accumulation on railroad beds near mining areas as has been suggested here in north Idaho or possibly lead vaporisation caused by shooting steel plates at rifle ranges or that given off in tap water supplies by superheated water passing over lead pipes or solder. These are totally different issues than those presented by rifle bullets in normal dirt backstops and light years separated by the scattering of lead rifle bullets in the field caused by hunting.

I would love to also hear from a chemist that can comment from professional experience or personal interest in this lead bullet topic?

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93276 - 03/01/08 04:56 AM

Quote:

Lead poisoning in waterfowl is primarily an issue involving the grinding of lead shot in bird crops IIRC, specifically lead shot taken up by diving ducks, and when reduced to such small particles some health issues may arise,



In areas where shallow water overlies sandy bottom, where there is intensive hunting, lead shot can accumulate in sufficient quantity as to be visible. The appearance is of seeds lying on the bottom, and some species of ducks would be attracted and consume large quantities of the small lead pellets. The pellets are small enough that they could be ground in the bird’s crop.

This is the model used to claim that a single, jacketed bullet could be harmful to a condor. In all probability, if a condor ingested a bullet, it would be passed entire, along with all the other hard and indigestible objects it might ingest (teeth, claws, etc.). That this is a misapplication of the model is unquestionable; that it was deliberate is also likely.

Take care, Tom

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ArnoldB
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: Tatume]
      #93291 - 03/01/08 08:25 AM

Since they banned lead shot and certain fishing weights from water the swan population in certain area's has dramatically increased though to the point of causing problems on the ecology scale, they eat more plants less plants for the crawlies that fish eat means less fish.

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Tatume
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: ArnoldB]
      #93293 - 03/01/08 08:43 AM

Quote:

Since they banned lead shot and certain fishing weights from water the swan population in certain area's has dramatically increased though to the point of causing problems on the ecology scale, they eat more plants less plants for the crawlies that fish eat means less fish.



Dear Arnold,

Can you point me to a citation for this? I would like very much to read more about it. Part of my research has been centered on tundra swan food habits. Thank you.

Take care, Tom

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ArnoldB
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: Tatume]
      #93295 - 03/01/08 09:39 AM

Hello Tom,

Swan population increase
They mentioned this site http://www.naturalengland.org.uk in the article but I can't find any related info onthere.
http://www.defra.org.uk might have any information regarding swans on it to but the site is down.

Hope this helps.

Edited by ArnoldB (03/01/08 09:45 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: Tatume]
      #93298 - 03/01/08 09:51 AM

Tom:

Is your research work-related?

I am really curious as to the numbers of waterfowl saved by the banning of lead shot. Intuitively, it makes sense that lead shot would be dangerous to them due to the manner in which birds eat {crop action, etc}. I grew up in southern New Jersey and there are, as no doubt in parts of VA, coastal areas where intensive waterfowl shooting has been going on for over a hundred years, areas where, as you say, lead shot can and has accumulated in vast amounts.

Since accumulations of shot didn't just go away after the ban, I would think that deaths by lead poisoning would be measurable even for years after the ban, particularly with diving ducks, that is, until the shot settles deeply enough into the bottom to be safe. So, IS THERE clear evidence of lead poisoning in waterfowl?

And has the ban positively impacted waterfowl numbers in any measurable way?

And also, has any research been done to determine if the vast amounts of small shot deposited in the water has resulted in lead leachate, ANY lead leachate, migrating into surrounding water? I understand that the environment is oxygen deprived, but I would still think that the water would bear lead merely due to the vast amounts present.

I remember back in the '70's articles being written that identified lead shot found in the crops of birds taken during hunting season, and the presence of the shot was assumed to follow with lead poisoning, but the mere presence of the shot doesn't mean the birds were poisoned, and the fact that they were taken during hunting season or shot by game department researchers indicates they were alive till introduced to lead shot in another manner...

Can you comment on what actual effect WAS lead shot having on waterfowl health?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Bramble
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93310 - 03/01/08 12:42 PM

93x57

FMJ ammo on ranges is because of the way our law is written. Ammunition designed to expand is all section 5 (effectivly banned) this restriction can be lifted by specific permission for those who wish to hunt deer and have access/permission to do so on sutible land. Expanding ammunition is specifically precluded for target shooting, except for its use in zeroing a hunting rifle.

So perversly V-max ammo cannot be used on a range but A-max can.

Even more perversley we may not posess expanding ammunition in calibers for which no use exists within the united kingdom. So it is not legal to possess soft point in the large NE and rimless calibers unless you can get somebody to give you permission to hunt deer with them in the UK. And as most land does not have the safety distences required and most landowners will not allow deer to be shot over open sights it is almost impossible to get permission to have the ammo in your possession. It is not possible (specifically prohibited by law) to give permission for the possession of ammo to be used in another country even if the laws of that country permit it, if such ammo cannot be also used in the UK.

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500grains
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: Bramble]
      #93317 - 03/01/08 01:51 PM

I suppose sintered bullets will become much more popular for practice.

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9.3x57
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: 500grains]
      #93330 - 03/01/08 04:48 PM

The bullets i have read about are, obviously, solid metal copper alloys, but also IIRC, I saw that some outfit was experimenting with cores made of a material similar to tungsten matrix.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: Bramble]
      #93345 - 03/01/08 06:22 PM

Quote:

93x57

FMJ ammo on ranges is because of the way our law is written. Ammunition designed to expand is all section 5 (effectivly banned) this restriction can be lifted by specific permission for those who wish to hunt deer and have access/permission to do so on sutible land. Expanding ammunition is specifically precluded for target shooting, except for its use in zeroing a hunting rifle.



Is there any logic behind the prohibition? I would have though FMJ's have an increased chance of ricochet?

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ripp
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: NitroX]
      #93351 - 04/01/08 12:57 AM

I had read an article that this was blowing in the wind for quite some time which is why other manufacturers have developed bullets similar to Barnes--NO LEAD...

As mentioned above--I see this as nothing more than a veiled attempt to reduce or stop sportsman from hunting/shooting...purely political with very little if any science behind it..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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EricD
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: Ripp]
      #93378 - 04/01/08 07:46 AM

Quote:


As mentioned above--I see this as nothing more than a veiled attempt to reduce or stop sportsman from hunting/shooting...purely political with very little if any science behind it..

Ripp



That's my take on it too. A bunch of politically correct BS to pacify the ignorant masses...

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peter
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: EricD]
      #93381 - 04/01/08 08:29 AM

so sorry for the people in cal. we had this stupid lead ban for a lot of years in denmark. the swedish goverment just lifted the ban because of the scientific results but no such luck in denmark,
we dont have it on bullets yet, but thats because the liberals dont know it is in there.



regards

peter

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jro45
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: peter]
      #93651 - 06/01/08 11:35 PM

We had that problem a few years back then it disapeared when somebody else was elected.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: jro45]
      #93656 - 07/01/08 12:08 AM

I suppose center fire shooters have a way out with mono-metal copper bullets, but what is the implication of this new law for the use of a .22LR?

Curl

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9.3x57
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: CptCurl]
      #93669 - 07/01/08 01:18 AM

I just read a synopsis in Fur-Fish-Game.

The ban will cover those areas of the state that encompass the range of the California Condor. The "leaving of carcasses" by hunters is the trouble according to those who have promoted the ban. Just what "leaving carcasses" means I do not know, unless they are referring to gut piles as stated above or varmint carcasses. Neither such sources would appear to me to likely hold ANY bullets statistically speaking.

One of the shooting sports associations stated that an education program for hunters would have been a much better method to address this "problem" {if it is a problem as nothing was mentioned about any case of lead poisoning of condors due to bullets}. Hunters could remove carcasses and thus remove the problem. This sensible approach was, of course, rejected.

One concern put forth is that due to costs of shooting thus being sent skyrocketing, it is estimated that some thousands of hunters will quit the sport, this being the last straw of sorts, and thus reducing revenue for the State wildlife department, thus reducing funding for legitimate and functioning conservation programs. Where the protection of the condor does not seem to be the result of this new law, damage to other conservation programs seems to be a very likely result of this new law. Interestingly, just as with the wolf recovery promoters in Idaho, the "condor protectors" do not seem to care what happens to other species, and in fact, my belief is that they HOPE other species will suffer, thus creating another species management problem for which to devise a "nonhunting" solution.

This all sounds way too much like the thinking of Indian and Kenyan "hunting ban" fanatics. One problem leads to another, to another, etc...

I see an enforcement issue, too, as I suspect many hunters will simply ignore the law. Having said that, I bet the fine/punishment for violation will be extremely severe, far beyond what is sensible, since the violation would involve an "endangered species".

More opportunity for the trial lawyers.

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Ripp
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Re: California bans lead bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #93672 - 07/01/08 01:48 AM

On the article I read, it was stated some sort of compensation would go to those hunters for the increase in expense..that it was part of the bill...however no one knows where the money would come from for the compensation...mmmmm...that's odd...goverment spending money that isn't there...never heard that one before..

This is nothing more than a back door attempt at halting hunting period...

Problem is most of the "sheep" in the urban areas don't care...

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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