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Unfortunately it seems that this debate will not end until one of these articles on the suitability of the 45-70 ends with an obituary.

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I cannot see why anybody would choose to go with the .45-70 over some other more-commonly used cartridge for heavy African game

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if such hotrodded .45-70 "stunt loads" are to be condemned so should such cartridges as the mediums cited above.

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It drives the flat point 560gr. Lyman hard cast bullet (hardened WW) of 560gr. weight at 1,850fps. For those who feel the .450/.400 has plenty of poop, this load beats it in diameter, bullet weight, KO, FPE or whatever measurement is used. fpe is 4,257.

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My gut feeling is I would like to see some penetration testing of a 540 gr hammerhead at 1550 fps compared to African standard cartridges.

My feeling is Buff is on the light end of desired penetration?maybe,but a 45-70 definitely not an option on Ele for me.With numerous documented headshot failures of 500 gr 458 WM around 2000 fps *ain't no way* I'm going to try a head on shot at a charging Ele with any 45-70 if I have a choice.

I prefer to always be prepared for the worse scenario, not the perfect shot--Bet somewhere someone has even killed an Ele with a handgun.I know they have--SO WHAT!!Better to respect the animal to dispatch it quickly with the most potent rifle I can control and avoid nasty painful terminal complications like becoming instant toejam!!!

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Some of this is due to case capacity/bullet quality but note 1900+ fps only penetrated one half as deep as others 200fps faster.


If this is so then how would a 540 gr at 1550 fps(much,much slower) possibly hold its own??

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And even though it's now obsolete for military use, the 30-06 is far more versatile than the 45-70 is as a hunting cartridge in just about every way.

Absolutely true. Did somebody say the .45-70 was more versatile than the .30-06? I didn't, and I can't find a post here on this thread of anyone who did.


Then along comes the 458 Win. Mag. in 1956, and almost immediately that cartridge became suspect due to the fact that it's short on case-capacity.

Interesting statement, as that cartridge really and truly did have some problems early on. But were those actually due to a muzzle velocity of 1950 fps to 2000 fps or due to the provable failures caused by early powder clumping, bad bullets, etc. I have read so much argument over this subject that I am really curious as to what the facts are. Many with vast experience with the .458 even in its early years had nothing but praise for it. The actual failures I have read about were due to poor load practices or bad early powders. Your point is well-taken as far as early ammo is concerned, but is the .458 considered a "dog" now...?

And now the 45-70...is the modern do-everything wunder cartridge, huh?

Again, not sure where you are getting this stuff. Has somebody here said this? Or is this statement based on other threads? I've never suggested such a thing at all. I've asked if anyone has extensive experience shooting heavy game with something along the lines of a .45/540/1550 load. Have you seen failures with such a load? Please, if you have, I for one am all ears. I'd love to read of documented results with such a load on Aussie or African buff or US bison or even stock cattle or other heavy game. You are making some wild accusations. Maybe they are based on proclamations from .45-70 devotees from other threads? If so, please specify, since I don't read anybody doing what you accuse here on this thread.

I don't think so.........not for any hunting purpose that I'll ever need to fill. In fact, I've been so turned-off by some of this 45-70 froth in recent years that I'll never own one, pure and simple.AD

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The 458 Win. Mag. has had a checkered career in its own right, yet it's considerably faster and more versatile than the 45-70 is, and I have personally used it on dangerous African big game such as buffalo and hippo, as well as plainsgame. It's a better dangerous game cartridge than the 45-70 is (it couldn't be any other way), and the faster 458s and 416s are better yet. So the 45-70 loses that battle by default.

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If that .50 lever rifle was is .50 Alaskan, I'd put all the blame on the shooter, not the rifle or cartridge. Going bigger wouldn't help if it made him shoot worse (other than a total miss not requiring going into the bush) if anything I'd rather him shoot less gun that he can actually shoot well with. .50 Alaskan isn't .45-70.

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Smicha:

Wake up!!! You entirely miss the point!!

It is obvious that an unknown .50 caliber levergun shooting unknown bullets at an unknown velocity under unknown conditions with unknown shot placement is all we need to know that the 540/1550 load in the .45-70 is no good for anything.

I once shot a stray barn cat in the head with a .44 Special. It ran away after taking the shot. That too proves the .45-70 is no good for deer hunting. I once missed a deer with the .303 British. That proves that the .300 Weatherby won't kill a pronghorn...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Needless to say the shot wasn't perfect and the result was poor.
Interesting!!!

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It it was Scovil - he should have known better. The Winchester 50-110 and the .45/90 as well, have too slow rifling twists for the length of the bullets used in them. They were meant for very short-for-calibre bullets, which didn't help matters. This resulted in poor penetration, such that the Winchester .45 and .50 cal rifles were the laughing stock of the buffalo plains. RCBS made or makes a mould for a .510" 450gr. which, if driven 2,000fps or over, cast of WW metal which was then hardened, would have done the job given proper shooting. Trouble is, the 450gr. bullet is too long for the 32"(.45/90) to 56"(.50-110) rifling (jury is out on the twist actually used) twist of those leverguns. I have seen 'duplication' .50 Wnchester barrels for sale for the .50/95 and .50/110 that have 56" twists. This is a round ball twist in .50 to .60 calibre, not a slug twist.
; The .50 Alaskan with a proper 15" to 24" twist is very much different than the .50-110 Winchester in both power and penetration. The high velocty load for the .50-110 was a short light 350gr. at sometihg like 2,200fps, while a strong lever gun will do about 2,000fps with a 450gr. .50 bullet. Chambered in a strong, single shot action, the Alaskan will do about 2,100fps wihth a 520gr.
; Buckbrush, I doubt this was the incident mentioned. Could have been though, you just never know.

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Scovill's rifle was built by Doug Turnbull Restorations from a original .45 caliber 1886. it was rebarreled with a 1-20" twist half octagon/round barrel from Montana Rifleman. he hunted with Martin Pieters of Rann Safaris in Botswana and yes he burned blackpowder in that rifle with that RCBS 450gr. bullet you mention Daryl. i have the DVD "10 days in africa" from wolfe publishing with Scovill's buffalo hunt and some plains game. he shoots that buffalo 6 or 7 times and you can see the dust flying off the buff with each hit. he wrote the buff hunt up in Successful Hunter mag and said the most bullets exited and were all in the vitals FWIW. Daryl, i see in quite a few posts you really like the 50 alaskan. it is an excellent close range thumper. i have a Browning 1886 converted to 50-110 with a 1-20" twist and using 50 Alaskan load data i can easily drive a 525gr. LBT LFN 2000+ fps from the 26" barrel. that cresent butt plate maakes it no fun though.

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AD:

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Second, everyone knows the .45-70 is a better elephant cartridge than the .577 NE. It's also a better anti-aircraft cartridge than the 88mm Flak, too. The .45-70 also shoots flatter than the .300 Weatherby, kicks less than the .243, and is quieter than a .22. EVERYONE agrees with all of this.

Yes, and the .45-70 is going to replace the 5.56 as the NATO standard cartridge, too. Hoppdoc said that. And let's not forget that Daryl sank a German U-Boat in 1943 with a 500 grain cast bullet launched at 1100 fps from the .45-70. And I've killed 574 ground squirrels with the .45-70 in a Trapdoor Springfield with a 16x Unertl scope mounted on it, the same gun I loaned to Sam Fadala who used it to shoot 1000 elephants after slaying 17 blue whales off the coast of Patagonia. All of this is fact and all attested to in the thread. Marrakai mentioned he has a belt-fed .45-70 that he used to shoot enough kangaroos to feed the entire dog populations of Sydney, Perth and East Timor.

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Yep ...the 45-70 does it all.

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Perfectly stated, Nitro.

I was not aware of ".45-70 Wars" till informed of their existence in this thread {and a PM sent by a member}.

I do not understand why some want to suppress the investigation of improved loadings of any cartridge, so the blowup over .45-70 experimental or other heavy loads really left me confused.

Honestly, I thought this post was being handled well, without hyperbolic worship of the silly cartridge, till it was condemned wholesale. Your post here is very helpful.

Maybe I am wrong, but I see a forum such as you have here as a place where experimentation and investigation and subsequent discussion can flourish, and where unknowns can be discussed based on the knowns. If a fellow says "I don't think that will work, based on my experience with this" I listen up. But when a fellow says "It's no good but I haven't used it" I get bored with such a forum fast. They are a dime a dozen...

On that last note, and NOT particularly applying to this thread, for some time I thought this place was different than some others. But there appears to be a member or two who though very knowledgeable in some areas, constantly enters threads by belittling and denigrating others and by acting totally belligerently. Interestingly enough, such belligerence appears to frequently involve areas of weakness. I myself enjoy a debate but it is becoming more and more obvious to me over time as I read many posts {lots of which I do not even enter} that this like other forums, seemingly has its protected Sacred Cows and Heroes and since constant belligerence from any member makes for boring reading to me, it is easy to drift away, which is I suspect the normal way of things.

Thanks for your excellent summation here. You always have a valuable word to add.

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... on buffalo would be normal and the use of the .45-70 would be a "stunt", though backup with all of them is generally assumed. Use of the .45-70 would thus not be a stunt, but not a cartridge to use without backup, either.

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My comment on some hunts being "stunts" is not to belittle the hunts or what people want to do. If it is legal and the PH is happy people should go for it if they want.

My definition of "stunt" in this case is to use someone less than what is generally considered adequate. I think the people that say hunt a buffalo with a bow have a lot of guts just like someone who might want to use a BP muzzle loader or a lever action or whatever. Hey mankind used to hunt these beasts once with spears. A "stunt man" is someone usually who is a professional and does something dangerous but perhaps with careful weighing of the risks and capabilities. If a 6.5x54 can kill a buff in certain circumstances so can many other calibres. But what if for example the circumstances are not ideal for the choice of hunting tool eg if one encounters a buffalo or elephant at close range and a less than ideal shot has to bemade, say in a charge? Then one would need to make do with one has or the PH would have to do the shooting.

Regarding a .375 or similar and up in size and power I would feel quite happy to hunt on my own if that was possible in a legal framework today. It is certainly possible with Aussie water buffalo. My guide during a water buffalo cull only had a .303 by the way and I didn't feel any worry about being uner-gunned with a 9.3mm. Most of the well used calibres are pretty well proven in the majority of circumstances given a certain chance factor. However today as you say there is usually a PH armed differently to 'help out' if needed with whatever a client uses.

These ".45/70" debates have raged over the internet forums a lot of many people react to them as a result perhaps a little more harshly or quickly. Some of the previous proponents too have simply done it to create a stir. Not saying that is the case here however. That might need to be taken into account too when the topic comes up every now and again.

Garrett Bullets, and hunts using their projectiles make some claims too which might sometimes IMO be a bit of a stretch. However as I said I KNOW a .45/70 with a 540 gr Flat nosed hardened bullet at a suitable velocity will kill a buffalo with a single shot. I wasn't there at the hunt, but did hear all about it the evening of the hunt. For the guys and girls that want to do it, why not? One question is have the proponents or antagonists actually done what is being proposed ie first hand experience, or is conjecture?

I know there was a plan to use a spear to hunt water buffalo and hopefully the story of that will one day be factually reported. Now IMO that takes real guts to even consider! On Christmas Day I was speaking to a relative about one of his encounters with an enraged buffalo. He was unarmed and dodged and ran from an angry water buffalo for forty minutes before getting away. Also I respect many others opinions I know a member or two here who are very experienced and have once used "sub-standard" calibres and now recommend quite considerably more oomph in calibres after difficult encounters. Always good to take on good advice.

I haven't read much of the posts on this thread but I think sometimes we all over-analyse things too much instead of just having fun and doing more hunting. But discussions and debates are also fun and educational and allow all of us whom aren't out hunting as much as we would like to still participate in "hunting" activities be they hopefully friendly arguments.

I think people should just have fun doing their hunting, it is meant to be fun, not serious, use what they are happy to use, but also live with the results. "Spice" and variety in life is often good.

BTW I don't pretend to have any sort of expert knowledge, just my personal opinion.

Have fun, both hunting and in polite hunting discussions.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Perfectly stated, Nitro.

I was not aware of ".45-70 Wars" till informed of their existence in this thread {and a PM sent by a member}.

Having said that, I have never said, and still won't say, that the .45-70 is a .458 Lott, or is comparable to it merely because they share the same groove depth.

As for the .45-70 itself, where does it fall performance-wise?

Based on my use on game and in test media of the .45-70 and .375 H&H Magnum, with expanding bullets {I do not need or use FMJ's and can't comment on them} and using top loads in both, they appear equals at close range.

I don't see why the use of a 9.3x74R, 9.3x62 or .375 H&H Mag on buffalo would be normal and the use of the .45-70 would be a "stunt", though backup with all of them is generally assumed. And with proper solids, maybe they too make the .45-70 the equal of the 9.3's and .375 up close, that I do not know as I haven't tested solids in the .45-70.
: The famed Wally Johnson used a .375 throughout his career, so maybe the argument should be "Is a heavy .45-70 as good up close as the .375 H&H?", not "Is it as good as the .458?"

: Honestly, I thought this post was being handled well, without hyperbolic worship of the silly cartridge, till it was condemned wholesale. Your post here is very helpful.

: Thanks for your excellent summation here. You always have a valuable word to add.

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These ".45/70" debates have raged over the internet forums a lot of many people react to them as a result perhaps a little more harshly or quickly.

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well after the yule stress is gone, i went back and reread the tread.

gentelmen im sorry, i will try to read the stuff i write before i post it.

best regards

peter

have a safe new year

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... We know John Barnsness shot a bull Cape Buffalo with a Marlin .45/70 using a seemingly 'light' 400gr. solid, at a velocity that is a full 200 fps lower than the ctg. is capable of, yet killed it and the cow behind it. ...

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... We know John Barnsness shot a bull Cape Buffalo with a Marlin .45/70 using a seemingly 'light' 400gr. solid, at a velocity that is a full 200 fps lower than the ctg. is capable of, yet killed it and the cow behind it. ...

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Not that it matters that much but I think it was Brian Pearce and not John Barsness.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

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: You're right, Bob - it was Brian. Thanks for the correction.
: As to loading the .45/70 to equal the .458 - of course that can't be done.
; In my rifles, the .45/70 has handled 40,000 to 43,000cup pressure levels just fine. I think it is definitely possible for a rifle to have what appears to be an oversize chamber - generally when chambered with a brand new reamer. The brass can only expand to the size of the chamber and there is no problem if this expansion is up to .008" from unfired dimensions. .008", while quite a bit, is still within specs for most factory rifles from Rem, Winchester, etc. I feel it's too much but they don't. This is why I like to have my own reamers made to my specs. Too, some sizer dies squeeze the brass down more than necessary, RCBS comes to mind, making the expansion look excessive as well.
; It is normal for any modern round to expand to the chamber size, then contract .001" to allow for extraction.
: I've a friend with a Marlin Stainless Guide Gun, that gets 400gr. Barnes FN's doing 2,007 fps with a load straight from Speer's book - 49gr. Re#7. I know these are supposed to be 34,000CUP or less loads, but his velocity is 150fps to 200fps higher than the book speeds and yet his barrel is 3 1/2" to 5 1/2" shorter(book uses 22" or 24"??). So - his barrel and bullet choice is developing greater pressure and thus higher velocities, but the pressure is still low enough to cause abslutely no signs of high pressure, whatsoever.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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No, I did not ask that question in sports afield, but, maybe I should. Why, was there someone else out there with a similar foolhardy notion?
xring

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Somebody asked about using it in the January edition (although now I am not 100% certain it was the Marlin - I need to check) and Kevin Robertson was of the opinion that it was below the legal minimum in the energy department. Having said that, I expect that he was talking about factory loads.

As regards handguns, I'm pretty sure that there is a section on cape buff with handguns in Mark Hamptons book. In the same way as the 45-70 can clearly be made to work with the right loads and guns and in suitable experienced hands, as Daryl_S and 9.3x57 point out, it probably isn't advisable for all but the very experienced and even then you may be asking for trouble...

Certainly wouldn't be high on my list of things to do before I die. If it was, it might have to be a very short list! Hopefully that doesn't re-start the "war"! JMHO

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It surprises me no end to read where guys would take on buff with a 9.3 with factory ammo, yet shun the more powerful round just because it's not a bolt gun or $20,000 double.
: Adequate bullet, velocity and accuracy are the only criteria necessary. Perhaps those who fight against this round and the .45/70 merely reflect their feelings of inadequacy in the accuracy department - maybe I'm just full of it - hahahaha!

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Clearly things are possible with modern steel and 45/70 handloads today that were not possible 50 or 100 years ago - your experiments show that.
Its a similar story with the .458 Win's chequered reputation - no doubt its a great round today, but all the writers blow on about the Lott as if powders and technology have stood still all these years...
Whether either is the best choice is a different question though

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Anyone who would say the .45/70 is 'better' than a .458 WM or any other of the more powerful rounds is being a mite silly. My problem is with people who look at 405gr. bullets at 1,320fps or 500gr. bullets at 1,210fps, who judge the round by those black powder ballistics and will not look at what the round has become in modern guise.

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