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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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AussieHunter
.224 member


Reged: 29/08/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Outback, NSW, Australia
Breaking In New Rifle
      #86173 - 25/09/07 04:32 PM

Just wondering how you guys break in your new rifles. Do you clean the bore and barrel before you fire the first shot? Is there some sort of routine i need to take?

Any Advice would be great.


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Mike_McGuire
.333 member


Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 348
Loc: Sydney Australia
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: AussieHunter]
      #86178 - 25/09/07 07:04 PM

You can and will get lots of disagreement on "breaking in" BUT everyone will agree that the barrel of a new rifle should be cleaned before shooting so as to remove the greases/oils etc that the factory put in the barrel.

As to following shots I do the following:

If the barrel is stainless I fire a few shots then:

Clean out the powder fouling with Hoppes and brush or similar then dry out the Hoppes and then with a patch on the ramrod put Sweets 7.62 into the bore. Leave for about 5 minutes. Dry out the Sweets and the patch will probably have a bluis green colour, then run Hoppes through the bore and then dry out the Hoppes and then shoot again. I might repeat this every 5 shots or so for about 20 shots.

Don't leave Sweets in for too long and don;t shoot the rifle without removing the Sweets.

If the barrel is Chrome Moly I only clean powder fouling out after I have finished shooting, depending on calibre and number of shots. I don't bother cleaning copper fouling out of Chrome Moly barrels as I think it is better left there. Others will disagree. If the calibre is small but has a larger case capacity such as 22/250, 243, 257 Wby etc them I might clean the powder fouling out after 20 shots or so. For big bores with small capacity for the bore size such as 375 H&H, 458 Win I would only clean out the barrel after I finish shooting.

Having said of all that the vital thing is to clean out the factory barrel protection before shooting.

After you have fired 3 or 4 shots tighten the action screws. The front screw shoul be tightened quite hard and the rear screw not tightened up to much.....somewhere between being "nipped up" and very tight.

Mike


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AussieHunter
.224 member


Reged: 29/08/07
Posts: 47
Loc: Outback, NSW, Australia
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #86180 - 25/09/07 08:19 PM

Thanks Mike,

The calibre is a .308 Winchester and it does not have a stainless barrel. I will follow your advice.

Cheers.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: AussieHunter]
      #86185 - 25/09/07 10:04 PM

Agree there are various ideas on this--personally, I clean the gun very well as described above-using Hoppes--then either Barnes or Sweets--

After which time I clean after every shot for the first 10 shots--then after every for the next 10--after which time I clean after every group for the next 10 or so--

I feel when I spend $400 plus for a new barrel--and I will probably have that barrel for 3 to 5,000 rounds--it is worth my effort to take a bit of time to break it in..plus with higher grade barrels they clean very easy--you can tell a great deal just by how easy it cleans...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: AussieHunter]
      #86193 - 26/09/07 04:46 AM

Breaking in a new rifle is essentially the same as breaking in a new barrel. Barrels with cut rifling tend to be rough unless they have been "lapped", a process used by custom barrel makers, but not, to my knowledge, by rifle manufacturers. The break in process either complements or replaces lapping.

The first few shots through a cut rifled barrel are important because they tend to remove the jagged edges left by the cutter. Button rifled or hammer forged barrels are not as rough, but have their own issues. The "smoothing" process carried out for the first few shots through the barrel unfortunately leaves a residue of copper fouling in the rough spots which, unless removed, will be forced into the uneven spots in the barrel and inhibit the smoothing process.

This is most important for target or benchrest shooters, but the owner of an expensive rifle would do well to use the same process, which is time consuming and somewhat onerous, but will result in a barrel which will deliver stellar accuracy for thousands of shots. My large bore target rifles were usually good for 6000 rounds before their accuracy weas no longer acceptable. This assumes having the barrel shortened and rechambered after 3000 shots. If the barrels ahd been long enough to permit shortening a second time, probably another 2000-3000 rounds of accurate life would have been possible. The only really discernable wear to any of them was to the throat area, directly in front of the chamber.

This method was taught me by a gunsmith who dealt exclusively with benchrest and target rifles involved no use of brass brushes whatever. All the cleaning was done from the breech end and employed a close fitting rod guide and a one piece plastic or nylon coated rod. Rods, rod guides and jags are best obtained from a firm such as Sinclair International http://www.sinclairintl.com/ which specializes in benchrest and target rifles.

First the rifle is placed in a secure support, either a commercially made cleaning stand, or an improvised one, made by cutting notches in opposite sides of a large cardboard box. Then the rod guide is placed in the rifle action, replacing the bolt. This centers the rod in the action, assuring that it will not rub against the throat of the chamber, holds the patch on the jag, and prevents any cleaning solvents from coming into contact with the trigger mechanism or stock.

An appropriate sized jag is fitted to the rod and a patch wrapped around the jag and inserted into the rod guide. (I generally use square flannel patches 2 1/2" on a side.) The rod is slowly pushed through the bore until about half of the patch protrudes from the muzzle. Bore cleaner (Hoppe's, Shooter's Choice, etc.) is applied to the patch and the rod is worked back and forth ten or twelve times. The wet patch is removed and the bore cleaned with a dry patch.

The barrel is cleaned after each shot for the first ten shots, then after every three shots for the next thirty shots, then after every ten shots for the next hundred shots and finally, after each day of shooting, which in my case, amounted to 66 to 88 shots, depending on the course of fire.

An occasional treatment with J-B Bore Compound should remove all traces of fouling and polish the bore bright. Solvents such as Sweet's, which contain a good deal of ammonia, should be used sparingly and should not be allowed to remain in the bore for any length of time. All traces of them should be removed after use.

As noted elsewhere, the manufacturers preservatives, oil and grease, need to be removed from the bore before the first shot is fired.


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zimhunter
.333 member


Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: AussieHunter]
      #86199 - 26/09/07 06:32 AM

I just finished the process with my new 257. Barrel is a 22" 3 groove Lilja. I run a drypatch thru the new barrel too remove all oil. Fire first shot. Soak patch with Sweets 7.62 Solvent and run thru barrel several times. Follow with clean patch till dry. Follow this procedure for first 20 shots between EACH shot. I use these to get scope in vicinity of correct point. Then I shoot for groups. There is a well known maker in the area who does the same thing but also uses a brush each time. I don't use a brush at all and the Smith who built this rifle does the same as I do. I was shooting 3 shot groups when I broke in this barrel and the best group was .283. Good enough for practice.

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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: zimhunter]
      #86200 - 26/09/07 07:30 AM

The only test I've ever seen of "break-in" procedures compared two barrels that were as nearly identical as it was possible to make them. One was broken in by a shoot-clean-shoot procedure, the other was installed and shot with no special treatment. Afterwards, there was no difference in the accuracy of the two barrels. The conclusion was that while break-in procedures do no harm, they do no good either. I'm sorry I don't have a citation, but if I find it I'll post the reference.

Take care, Tom


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #86204 - 26/09/07 08:10 AM

If you're talking hunting accuracy, I'd have to agree with you. The average hunter can't hold well enough to take advantage of the edge in accuracy the elaborate break-in procedure gives.

On the other hand, my late gunsmith, who built many of the rifles used by the US Palma teams in competition, definitely knew what he was talking about in other aspects of accuracy, and I choose to believe him in this one as well. (For those unfamiliar with the Palma Match, it is an international competition shot with iron sights at ranges of 800, 900 and 1000 yards, using the .308 cartridge of the host country's choice.)

Shooting a 200-12X with iron sights at 600 yards with a barrel with more than 5000 rounds through it convinced me that his directions were worth following. (This means that all 20 of my shots were in the 12" "10" ring and 12 of them were within the 6" "X" ring.)


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
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Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: xausa]
      #86232 - 26/09/07 10:15 PM

The test was performed on bench rest guns by an accomplished bench rest competitor.

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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
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Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #86242 - 27/09/07 01:50 AM

I don't really break mine in so much for accuracy as I do for easy cleaning. While I have run no scientific tests I find a patch goes thru a rifle I 'breakin' easier than one that has not been. I've been doing it this way for about 40 years and it works for me and really costs nothing but time. As I said I have no SCIENTIFIC proof it does anything except make ME feel better.

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jro45
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Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: zimhunter]
      #91575 - 15/12/07 12:42 AM

I break in my rifles just like I always shoot them. I fire 3 shots let it cool fire 3 more and continue that cycle until all the rounds are fired. Thats how I shoot my rifles at the range.

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: zimhunter]
      #91576 - 15/12/07 12:53 AM

Quote:

I don't really break mine in so much for accuracy as I do for easy cleaning. While I have run no scientific tests I find a patch goes thru a rifle I 'breakin' easier than one that has not been. I've been doing it this way for about 40 years and it works for me and really costs nothing but time. As I said I have no SCIENTIFIC proof it does anything except make ME feel better.







Agree with you totally, breaking in the barrel will have several effects with the ease of cleaning being one of them. I break mine in as I described above and the ease of cleaning on them is greatly enhanced.

As to long distance competition, Xauss is dead on--the average hunter will not notice--but the target shooter will ---

I have visited with many custom barrel manufacturers, custom rifle makers, etc and they have ALL told me they believe in breaking in barrels---as that is the business they are in one would tend to believe what they say versus some slanted article in a magazine.


Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
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Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Ripp]
      #91578 - 15/12/07 01:10 AM

I realize that many people have strongly held opinions on this subject, but very few actual tests have ever been made. Unless the hypothesis is tested, it is conjecture. If you're right you're right, but without data, how do you know?

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #91580 - 15/12/07 01:28 AM

Again, in visiting with the "Experts", the barrel makers and pro's telling you to do so-- and spending anywhere from $400 to $800 for a barrel--in my opinion--with the value of your time and money invested in a custom firearm, you would have to be a idiot not to..

Even if you believe that it "might not help"---what do you have to loose? A bit more time and a bit more ammo for a lifetime of easier cleaning and more accurate firearm..makes perfect sense to me

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Ripp]
      #91611 - 15/12/07 06:38 AM

I recently bought a new Rem SPS 220 Swift, I went straight home from picking it up, stuck the crackers in it and banged em off over the hi-lux bonnet "up the back",i have done the same with any of my rifles...I can tell you that this thing topped with a L 6 x 18 scope does the job and i have never seen the need for the elaborate processes above myself..each to their own opinion of course. My 7 mill is near on 30 yrs old with the same barrel and the same was done for it,the old girl still shoots an inch with Winny factory rounds to this day.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: gryphon]
      #91627 - 15/12/07 10:25 AM

I am a big fan of John Barsness & find him extremely practical & knowledgeable. He does not find any benefit in breaking in a new barrel.

I have had some new barrels & rifles and read up a lot of advise. My conclusion is as follows

1 Cleaning a new barrel or rifle is a CRITICAL issues. The barrel & action will have grease, oil, preservative, varnish etc. It will also have saw dust, metal filings, spurs & other rubbish from the factory or gunsmith's workshop. The bolt lug recess will hold such dirt. So I ALWAYS give a new barrel / rifle a good squirt of degreaser. It is surprising to see the amount of solid rubbish that comes out! Then I use a flexible chamber brush (a wonderful tool that I have seen only once in a shop in New Zealand & bought it) & scrub the chamber & the lug recess of the action & give another squirt of degreaser. Some more rubbish can be seen on the towel on the floor. Then I use a soft cloth & try to reach all the corners of the lug recess, even using a bamboo kaba skewer to get to the corners. More solid rubbish can be seen on the cloth. I then use solvent to clean the barrel in the usual way. Scrub with a wet patch & dry out with a few clean patches. If I am not shooting the rifle immediately, I use Break Free CLP & give the rifle a good wipe inside & out.
2 The breaking in of a new barrel is another issue all together - I now just shoot the rifle normally - 10 to 40 rounds at the range. Come home & clean it. I use JB paste to scrub the stainless barrel - this certainly smoothens out the tool marks & sharp edges (a Barsness recommendation). I almost NEVER use amonia based solvent (Sweets etc) anymore. In my early days of ignorance I stupidly left Sweets in the barrel of my Tikka 222 overnight & it looks like sand papaer now. Fortunately the rifle still shoots 0.5" groups with 5 shots! The only exception is when cleaning after using the old barnes X bullets as the fouling is terrible. On such rare occasions I use a strong solvent & wipe it out in 5 minutes & follow up with normal solvent or Break Free. The TSX is a real dream & does not foul barrels any more than lead core bullets.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

Edited by Nakihunter (15/12/07 10:09 PM)


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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Nakihunter]
      #91635 - 15/12/07 12:01 PM

Quote"It will also have saw dust, metal filings, spurs & other rubbish from the factory or gunsmith's workshop. The bolt lug recess will hold such dirt." Quote

Well a factory I cant comment, I don't buy factory rifles, but a gunsmith who returned a rifle so described would not recieve my custom again.

Regards


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Nakihunter]
      #91636 - 15/12/07 12:03 PM

Yes, I know John Barsness and actually have visited with him on occasion--he lives in Townsend Montana which is less than an hour from where I live..I as well enjoy his articles and knowledge..

However I also have visited with Kenny Jarrett and Dan Lilja who between the two of them have more knowledge on barrels and accuracy than any others I have talked too. They both are believers in breaking in barrels as described by others..As I mentioned earlier, they are the experts in their fields and I will follow what they have done in their past..

Another couple that come to mind is Mel Forbes or Lex Webernick --both custom gun makers and highly respected in their industry...and both have directions with their firearms on breaking in barrels..

I am not saying that you can't shoot a gun without breaking in the barrel and it won't still be accurate..but like I stated--what do you have to loose in a lifetime of ownership..to take an extra couple of hours something that might benefit you for decades..

But hey, if you think you know more than the custom barrel makers, knock yourself out..by all means shoot away...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26513
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Ripp]
      #91665 - 15/12/07 05:58 PM

The barrels that really benefit from proper breaking-in is the little ones used for shooting ground squirrels, etc. I an referring to .17's (or smaller) and .20's. Here, I'm talking about firing one shot and cleaning, then another and cleaning, etc for 10 shots, then 3 shto groupsa nd cleaning until 5 groups are fired. After that, with good custom barrels, routine cleaning is if and when accuracy drops off- which may run form 50 to 600 rounds depending on the calibre and amount of powder being burned.
; The benefit isn't in accuracy, it's in shooting cleanly, without picking up an copper (guilding metal) fouling.
; Having a .17 that's running 4,000fps yet not copper fouling is a blessing. The 3 groove PacNors are the best of the best in this regard and seldon foul is broken in properly.
; Big game rifles with produciton factory barrels may foul less with carfeful breaking in, but I've never seen it. Any I've had all fouled to some extent, some more heavily than others. They get cleaned every time they're used.
; The .17's I'm referring to, get cleaned every 200 to 400 shots depending on the weather - wet or dry. It's all they need, and Ed's Red is all the solvent taht's needed. It's pretty much a powder solvent only.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #91674 - 16/12/07 12:44 AM

Most of my big game rifles have custom barrels of one form or another..using a break in procedure very similar to what you have described--they are 2 to 3 times easier to clean than any factory barrel I have..with the fouling on longer shooting sessions being noticably less as well..

You are correct,in the assertion that breaking in will allow for the barrel to being cleaned easier as time goes on--this is true for both factory or custom---and if they are fouling less with less deposits being picked up and staying in the barrel, logic would say accuracy would also last longer with the less fouling..

Personally, when I go shooting prairie dogs--I will clean my rifles every 50 rounds..I usually take 4 to 5 rifles along on a shoot so I can shoot 3 to 4 shots and switch to another to let the barrel cool.. by the time one has 250 rounds through the guns it is usually time for a break anyway..

Typically if I am going big game hunting with a rifle after going to the range -I will fire one or two rounds through it from a clean barrel and go hunting leaving the fouling shot or two until I am done hunting..I have read numerous articles on this and visited with barrel makers as well --all have agreed on this practice--it seems to work.

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: AussieHunter]
      #91677 - 16/12/07 01:26 AM

As to the importance of breaking in a barrel, I am posting an article on Lilja's web site--by Dan Lilja himself--as their barrels have set several WORLD RECORDS.. I would consider his knowledge prudent and sound..here it goes...

Ripp




Barrel Fouling
By Dan Lilja

I read the excellent article by Fred Barker on fouling and accuracy in his 6.5 caliber 1000-yard type rifle. Per your request I'll do my best to convey my thoughts and observations on rifle barrels and bullet fouling.

It has been my experience in shooting a number of rifles and barrels used in 1000- yard rifles, that longer barrels and faster twists tend to foul more. And as Fred pointed out, this could be caused more by the long bullets (and the internal forces acting on them) than the barrel. I found too that some bullets just seem to foul more than others. This is no doubt caused by differences in the gilding metal used to make the jackets.

Fred makes some important observations and distinctions between true high-quality custom barrels and production barrels. I liked and agreed with his comment that " . . . in poor quality, mass-produced barrels, that build up thick, rough fouling and shoot poorly, every shot is a flier." One of the big differences between these barrels is the internal finish. A rough barrel is going to foul. After looking at the differences between a production barrel and finely finished lapped barrel in our video borescope, a customer made the comparison that the production barrel looked like railroad ties and the lapped barrel like a mirror.

Makers of custom hand-lapped barrels spend a lot of time achieving the internal finish that they require. We've experimented with different techniques and products and have settled on what we believe gives us the best finish. We strive to get a smooth uniform finish without losing the geometry of the rifling -- that is, keeping the lands sharp-cornered and crisp. And though it may surprise some, lapping to a finer finish will result in an increase in fouling. A barrel can be too smooth.

We've had customers ask about aftermarket operations and procedures that will "improve" the interior finish of our barrels. And I always warn them against it. The thought of lapping with 1200 grit makes me cringe. And I also feel it is very desirable to have the direction of the finish lay parallel to the rifling. A finish like this is produced naturally with hand-lapping. Some procedures can and will produce a directionless finish. My advice is to leave the internal finish to the barrel maker. Trying to "improve" it is only going to make it worse. The exception being unlapped production barrels.

I've noticed too that given an equal interior finish in both stainless steel (416) and chrome-moly (4142), the chrome-moly barrel will copper foul more.

I have not seen any real reason to use a dry lubricant on bullets as an effort to reduce fouling. With a proper barrel break-in, a top quality lapped barrel, and normal cleaning procedures, fouling just does not appear to be a major problem. We have now available some excellent bore cleaners that do a great job of removing the powder and jacket fouling that does accumulate. My personal favorite is Butch's Bore Shine.

It is important to break-in a barrel though. The jacket material must be removed after every shot during the initial few rounds. If this isn't done the areas of the barrel that fouled will tend to pick up more fouling and it will build on itself. It is important to get a layer of powder fouling on top of the lands & grooves. This hard deposit will prevent the copper from stripping off the bullets. However, if the internal finish of the barrel is too rough the barrel will never be completely broken-in and fouling will always be a problem. Some barrels can't be broken-in.

A similar phenomonon can exist if the shooter uses an abrasive-type cleaner too often. The abrasives are very effective at removing all traces of both powder and jacket fouling. I mentioned that a barrel can be too smooth. The abrasives can get a barrel too clean as well and in effect the shooter is rebreaking-in the barrel again every time he cleans. This can end up in the dog-chasing-his-tail scenario. The shooter thinks the barrel is a fouler, as evidenced by the copper accumulations in the barrel. He works hard at removing the copper, resorting to using an abrasive cleaner. But when he does he removes the desirable layer of carbon fouling left by the powder and exposes fresh steel ready to grab some more copper off the bullet on the next shot. The cycle repeats itself. Like the dog the best way out is to go lay down and take a nap.

I don't think I agree with Fred that the elements added to the steel to aid in machinability are a problem. At least for the steels we use. We buy our steel directly from the steel mills in truckload quantities and specify the chemistry we want. It is rare to see imperfections in the steel caused by impurities or alloying agents. And if they do show up as blemishes in the lapped finish, I would consider their size insignificant.

I do agree with the premise of Fred's article; we don't know all there is to know about fouling in barrels. But I do think that some of the procedures that have been tried and are still used by many shooters are steps in the wrong direction. Dry lubricants, surface finish enhancement procedures, and the overuse of abrasive cleaners all fall into that category, in my opinion.

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Ripp]
      #91681 - 16/12/07 02:33 AM

Lots of people believe it. Lots of people believe lots of things. Lots of important, authoritative people have believed things and offered their beliefs as evidence that the things were true. Upon testing, many things that many people have believed have been proven untrue. Examples abound throughout history. People have been executed for being right when lots of people believed otherwise. People have been called idiots (recently) for not accepting what other people believe without evidence.

The world is flat, and there is an eastern edge to the Atlantic Ocean beyond which one will fall into an abyss. The square root of two does not exist. The earth is the center of the solar system. These are but a few of the beliefs that have been strongly held by many people.

Other things that people believed without evidence have since been proven true. This may be true. But true or not, an untested hypothesis is conjecture.


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #91698 - 16/12/07 05:32 AM

Quote:

The barrels that really benefit from proper breaking-in is the little ones used for shooting ground squirrels, etc. I an referring to .17's (or smaller) and .20's. Here, I'm talking about firing one shot and cleaning, then another and cleaning, etc for 10 shots, then 3 shto groupsa nd cleaning until 5 groups are fired. After that, with good custom barrels, routine cleaning is if and when accuracy drops off- which may run form 50 to 600 rounds depending on the calibre and amount of powder being burned.
; The benefit isn't in accuracy, it's in shooting cleanly, without picking up an copper (guilding metal) fouling.
; Having a .17 that's running 4,000fps yet not copper fouling is a blessing. The 3 groove PacNors are the best of the best in this regard and seldon foul is broken in properly.
; Big game rifles with produciton factory barrels may foul less with carfeful breaking in, but I've never seen it. Any I've had all fouled to some extent, some more heavily than others. They get cleaned every time they're used.
; The .17's I'm referring to, get cleaned every 200 to 400 shots depending on the weather - wet or dry. It's all they need, and Ed's Red is all the solvent taht's needed. It's pretty much a powder solvent only.




Daryl
Per the PM--I will try to get that info to you--thanks

Ripp

Just sent--thx


--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (16/12/07 05:34 AM)


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Tatume]
      #91700 - 16/12/07 05:40 AM



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Nakihunter
.375 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Ripp]
      #91714 - 16/12/07 10:28 AM

Breaking in barrels to Philosopy of Perception! Man, this site rocks!

Tatum - you should start a separate thread regarding science, proof, belief etc. I'll then get the opportunity to bark up my favourite tree - science is man made! 400 years ago religion, magic, science, knowledge etc. were all rolled up together. Today most people think they are different - scientific fact is seen as some sort of a "sacred" reality. We just create those perception, values, methods, etc. & give it a name. That doesn't make it wrong or right - it is just different for each of us, depending on how we want to look at it & for what purpose. Science will never be able to explain emotions such as love & hatered or attributes such as bravery, cowardice, prejudice & stubbornness.

Ripp, you are an objective man who is prepared to stand up to his beliefs, well done. We may not garee all the time but that why we are different people. Regarding barrel breaking in - thanks for the article by Lilja - it fits in with other stuff I have read. The key issue for me is that I am just an average guy with a crazy interest in guns & hunting. I am not an expert & am not a target shooter. I shoot less than 1000 rounds a year (I used to shoot about 3000 rounds a few years ago but not any more). I am also glad to see that using Butch's Bore Shine is ok with Lilja.

Merry Christmas everyone.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Nakihunter]
      #91722 - 16/12/07 11:12 AM

Nakihunter,

PM your email address if you wish and I will send you another idea as to bore cleaning--I attended a seminar last year sponsored by both Barnes and another by Jarrett Rifles--

And yes, I share your passion for guns and hunting...almost to the point of obsession..

I have used their methods ever since and it really seems to work..

Thanks

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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GoneShootin
.224 member


Reged: 18/07/07
Posts: 31
Loc: Sydney Australia
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Ripp]
      #91738 - 16/12/07 02:09 PM

My conspiracy theory is that the barrel makers who dont have the bestest reputation and seem to lack consistency, tend to use running in as an excuse.

For instance, you buy a barrel, get it fitted, then shoot it, and it shoots larger than MOA groups. So you complain to the maker saying "rarara paid $600 for this chunk of crap rararara" and theyre response is "well did you run it in", if yes "how did you run it in", and inevitably the response to your method will be "well theres your problem, not my fault, bye".

The larger operations to do with firarms, would be investing money into research since to most people a lot of stuff to do with barrel making is a black art, however if they invest their money into research they aren't going to just give their secrets away.

I believe what Mr Lilja said, ive heard much of it before (ie that the finish has to be somewhere in between, not too polished and not too rough)


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KM4
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Reged: 23/11/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Outback Qld, Australia
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Nakihunter]
      #92186 - 20/12/07 05:34 PM

here's a dissenting view (from an authority from within the industry):
www.6mmbr.com/GailMcMbreakin.html

Perhaps a bit extreme, but sounds logical to me as do the the arguments on both sides. I'm a great fence-sitter!


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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: KM4]
      #92228 - 21/12/07 01:09 AM

Anybody with a bore scope ever used Lead-Away cloth to "break in" a rifle? Curious to know what if any comparisons can be made to this activity compared to the shoot/clean routine.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3525
Loc: Colorado
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #92240 - 21/12/07 02:44 AM

GoneShootin is right on.
I think all here agree that some breaking in process is preferable to none, but which is best is a question that is unanswerable.
I would expect that a barrel shoots its best somewhat early in its lifespan. Otherwise, magazine accuracy tests would be worthless not to mention the arduous process of regulating a double rifle. If a gunmaker regulates a fine double to hit the same point of aim out of both barrels, can breaking in improve this?...no.
Can breaking in help in cleaning?...yes.
The difference is that as internal barrel characteristics change, the consistency in accuracy changes - hopefully for the better. This consistency can be a great advantage for the single barrel target shooter who can adjust his sights to use it to his advantage. I don't think the same can be said of a doublerifle.
Anyway, not many will put that many rounds through a double, so my point may be moot.
As for manufacturers, it is in their best interest to make as accurate a rifle as is possible right out of the box. Some may be marginally better than others, but I would be surprised if there is a statistical difference once a load that barrel "likes" is found.
Which brings up a question for you benchrest guys out there.
How do you commit to a specific load when you buy a new barrel? Do you settle on a load first and then go through your break in process?

Huvius

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #92242 - 21/12/07 03:17 AM

For my last new barrel, I cleaned the rifle after every shot for 20 rounds. Thereafter It was sometimes cleaned after a group if I was at a range for checking zero, or after each hunting trip. Don't know if it was necessary or not.

Incidentally, I always use a dry patch, followed by a patch soaked in lighter fluid, followed by a dry patch before I start shooting in order to remove all traces of oil in the bore. The theory was that a) the lighter fluid evaporates (being flammable), b) any residue is much finer than machine oil (therefore less damaging than oil if left in a barrel when the bullet is fired) and c) most of the lighter fluid residue would be removed by the final dry patch (not the case with oil). This was part of the drill that we used when I shot competitively at Bisley - we were coached by a member of the GB match rifle team. I thought everybody did it, but apparently not!


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Breaking In New Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #92243 - 21/12/07 03:56 AM

Quote:

Anybody with a bore scope ever used Lead-Away cloth to "break in" a rifle? Curious to know what if any comparisons can be made to this activity compared to the shoot/clean routine.




I have not tried it but, when I attended the seminar last year by Jarrett, he stated that the theory that not brushing a bore will NOT get the copper out of your barrel...so I have followed his recommendation ever since

He runs two wet patches through the bore to remove the powder residue--then he brushes the bore with an amonia type cleaner (Sweets)--lets it set for a bit--maybe 10 minutes--however be carefull as this can pit the barrel--then he runs a couple of dry batches through-if copper is still present he will repeat the process with the Sweets or similar product..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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