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When it comes to shoot at longer range or when you have to shoot under poor conditions, for example under poor light conditions or in the dense bush, a scope is already an advantage and should no longer be missed nowadays. That's why nowadays you should not work without the technology if this is available. For these reasons I also have a scope on my rifles caliber 460 WBY-Magnum and 500 Schüler. It's about hunting and shooting game under the best conditions, and not just about demonstrating your skills.

As far as the use of weapons without iron sights is concerned, as it is very often or almost exclusively the case nowadays, hunters have to consider that carefully. If, under special circumstances, you need to shoot game at short range, iron sights are often very advantageous. For these reasons, it is a must for a hunter in Africa to always use a weapon that also has iron sights, be it in all cases when hunting big game, but even if you are just hunting plain game, because you can also encounter something dangerous. Defending yourself against an attack without iron sights is a very uncertain and dangerous matter.

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A reason good QD mounts are standard for most scoped DG rifles.

I question how many people with scoped DG rifles have ever used the rifle's open sights?

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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A reason good QD mounts are standard for most scoped DG rifles.

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As far as a good scope mount is concerned, on the scope of my rifle caliber 500 Schüler you can see the traces of what due to the recoil happens when a scope is not particularly solidly anchored. The gunsmith built the weapon very nicely, but when it came to scope, he did not take a few practical points into account. A few tries were necessary on my part and three scope mounts before I found the right one.

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At the eye doc right now. I only have reading glasses and rarely use them. Last time 6-6 or 20-20 vision. Hopefully still.

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Still good. Eighteen months before the next appointment.

Acscooevos certainly useful for lesser light, dawn, dusk, night, Shooting in a foresr or a herd, a scope is very useful.

Lots of different people, lots of different hunting scenarios, places, types of game. I think hunting a sambar is far different to stand hunting a whitetail. Or hunting a boar from a hochsitz at midnight.

Of course asking this question on the NE forums gets very different answers than some plastic rifle "tactical" forum or one saturated with Creedmoor buyers.

On some of those forums, the guys probably don't know how to use open sights.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Everything you say is correct, grandveneur, however I hold same as John, new shooters should be taught to shoot open sights - first.
An air rifle is very good for this 'early' teaching.

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Hunting is a sport not work.

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At the eye doc right now. I only have reading glasses and rarely use them. Last time 6-6 or 20-20 vision. Hopefully still.

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maybe its obsolete but a gun without looks like a woman without breast.
if you like this?

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Like female breasts without nipples ...

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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There are weapons that were always designed without iron sights and that definitely have a certain style.

Here for example a Lloyd rifle caliber 7mm rem mag, a rifle specifically designed for deer hunting in Scotland.



http://gavingardiner.com/BidCat/detail.asp?SaleRef=0007&LotRef=5

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I decide what the rifle will shoot and at what range.

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For me, a hunting rifle has normally open sights. However, every shooters, and especially long range shooters, knows that a free-swinging barrel is better in terms of precision.

David Lloyd's rifles were primarily intended for long range shooting at deers and were also zeroed in up to 400 yards, according to the customer's wishes. Strangely, Lloyd only used scopes with fixed magnification and these 4x or 6x, which is paradoxical for rifles that were intended for long range shooting.

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In addition, the scopes were delivered with the turrets removed, which makes subsequent regulation with another ammunition very difficult. It was a very personal concept from the manufacturer. The rifles were built from the fifties until supposedly the early nineties. According to him, it should be very robust rifles for demanding deer hunters in the highlands.

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By the way, David Lloyd is also the designer of the cartridge that was later called 244 H&H Magnum.

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Since the ammunition with which the rifle above was regulated was not known, it was difficult to first find a suitable load and then to gain with tools an access to the control of the scope. We finally succeeded, and the rifle also shoots very accurate.

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Well done.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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But you have to take into account the social environment and the hunting concept of a certain class of hunters from the British Islands. You look at Rigby's advertising and you will understand what I mean.

By the way, I bought this rifle by Rigby in London, but I am not a Gentleman Hunter British-style.

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Can you elaborate? Just interested.

Perhaps you mean the "gentleman" huntersthe client hunter type whether in Scotland or Africa where for examplethe gamekeeper carries the rifle for the client.The PH or gamekeeper has the binoculars and sights the game. Works out the stalk. Positions the didn't hunter. Tells the the animal to shoot and where to shoot it. The client pulls the trigger, hands the rifle back Later the beast is delivered to the game skinning room the triumphant hunter toasts his success with a Scotch. ???

Not much hands on A rifle already setup to be theoretically full proof is loaned to the client.

I remember the Brit approach when hunting Roebuck in Northumberland Not as bad as I describe sarcastically above, but I get the picture. I did get to sit in a highseatby myself for a few hours in the middle of the day.

We've probably all been there or partly there. Especially with African PHs. I had one saying I didn't need binoculars as the PH does it all. All I needed was to shoot the rifle .... I asked him if the arrogant c#nt wanted to pull the trigger as well . Not those words but that attitude in my words. Most of these dumb c#nt PHs don't realise they are only used by some clients mostly because it is required by law. Access to properties could be purchased directly just like many outfitters do. Their camp setup is handy of course. They have more experience judging African trophies of course. Blacks are often very good trackers. Hiring a good one is hit and miss, so if the PH has good trackers that's a plus. Skinning,trophy prep, if you don't at home, you can do it in Africa.

A guy in the 1980s wrote articles on how to hunt South Africa solo. Hire a 4WD, What gear to buy. How one could buy access directly to game farms hunting areas. Farm staff might accompany you. How to sell the meat to reduce costs etc. I think later on banning foreign hunters from Soo hunting was enforced

Friends and acquaintances of mine used to hunt Zimbabwe solo. A local farmer provided a vehicle and camp equipment and some staff. Self hunting including buffalo and lion. They purchased hunt quotas and dates in auctions in the citizens hunting areas. With Mugabe's farm invasion era and south African white outfitters poaching Zimbabwe , these auctions were ffffed up.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (06/11/23 11:41 PM)

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Can you elaborate without being rude? Just interested.

Perhaps you mean the "gentleman" huntersthe client hunter type whether in Scotland or Africa where for examplethe gamekeeper carries the rifle for the client.The PH or gamekeeper has the binoculars and sights the game. Works out the stalk. Positions the didn't hunter. Tells the the animal to shoot and where to shoot it. The client pulls the trigger, hands the rifle back Later the beast is delivered to the game skinning room the triumphant hunter toasts his success with a Scotch. ???

Not much hands on A rifle already setup to be theoretically full proof is loaned to the client.

I remember the Brit approach when hunting Roebuck in Northumberland Not as bad as I describe sarcastically above, but I get the picture. I did get to sit in a highseatby myself for a few hours in the middle of the day.

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Interesting concepts - all.

Not for me.

I decide what the rifle will shoot and at what range.

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In addition, the cartridge seem not to deliver ballistically what it promises. It was not a success.

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There are weapons that were always designed without iron sights and that definitely have a certain style.

Here for example a Lloyd rifle caliber 7mm rem mag, a rifle specifically designed for deer hunting in Scotland.



http://gavingardiner.com/BidCat/detail.asp?SaleRef=0007&LotRef=5

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Please excuse my ignorance but what action did Lloyd use? That looks a bit like a Rem Model 30, a factory rebuild of the M17.

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Gewehr 98 / lateral slide safety

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TR shooting which is probably the largest user of Iron sights (peep) is dying scopes have moved in. Small bore (22) is probably holding its own every other discipline is going gang busters all scoped.
The BBRG Nationals had how many shooters.
And i haven't touched on the vermin shooting Brigade.
Lazers are quietly moving in with thermals, starlight died.
Times and gear is certainly changing

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Here in Scotland we pretty much all use telescopic sights. Indeed most use a 4-12x50 or 56 type scope, if not more powerful, all with lots of clicky turrets etc.

Go back 30 years a 4x32 or a 6x42 was considered a powerful optic.

With the David Lloyd rifles you need look at them with regard to when the were built. David Lloyd died in the mid 1990’s in his 80’s.

When he developed and patented his mounting system most sporting rifles still were open sighted and if scoped, scope mounts were flimsy affairs easily knocked off zero. The David Lloyd Rifles were built to maintain zero and they generally did very well.

In the past when a Gentleman or a Lady bought a rifle the rifle “shot and regulated” for a particular ammunition. Open sights would be filed in for such ammo, and scope zeroed for such ammo.

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Please excuse my ignorance but what action did Lloyd use? That looks a bit like a Rem Model 30, a factory rebuild of the M17.

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Gewehr 98 / lateral slide safety

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Thanks for the info. I see he bent the bolt handle back so the bolt nob is close to the trigger.

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I think it should be mandatory for any new shooter to learn using open sights, not start with optics. IMO. Of course lesser eyesight forces some to for go open sights.

When younger I could shoot very well with my open sights. With good eyesight it merely a skill to learn.

No doubt the smartphone glued Creedmoor obsessed generation disagrees.

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Hell John. Today's snowflakes can't change a spare tire or do arithmetic. A letter written in cursive is some strange code to them.

Do you actually believe they'll frustrate themselves with open sights. They're too complicated.

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Hunt with Class and Classics

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I like your paratrooper 30-30.

I agree that in bad weather open sights are less of a problem than scopes.

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Absolutely.

I should have been clear. It is a 94 but it's one of those tang safety factory .44 magnums.

i hated the tang safety so i drilled a hole, threaded it and set a machine screw in it to block it.



the folding stock idea i got from a local old timer who had the idea back in the '50's. gun and old timer long gone now.




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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Hell John. Today's snowflakes can't change a spare tire or do arithmetic. A letter written in cursive is some strange code to them.

Do you actually believe they'll frustrate themselves with open sights. They're too complicated.

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Change a tyre? Don't you have a smartphone to telephone a roadside assistant?

Arithmetic ? What, I've got a calculator on my smartphone for that.

Cursive? That's like Arabic. Who needs to use a pen and paper. Pens and paper is destroying the planit. So "boomer" old school. I just send a text via my smartphone.

The smarter phones get, the dumber people get.

Thanks for the laugh I got reading your reply.


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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (06/03/24 02:49 PM)

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I'm not going into the discussion between open sights pro and con.
I have always attached great importance to the metallic sight line on the rifles we manufacture.
Of course we respect the requirements of our customers but, for me, a rifle without a set of perfectly regulated metallic sights and without an hand fitted quick detachable scope mount guaranteeing a perfect return to zero is not a real rifleman rifle....
I also note that many forget all the benefits that the addition of a quality diopter can bring to our ageing eyes.
This is just my personal opinion and I don't impose it on anyone.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com

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I'm not going into the discussion between open sights pro and con.
I have always attached great importance to the metallic sight line on the rifles we manufacture.
Of course we respect the requirements of our customers but, for me, a rifle without a set of perfectly regulated metallic sights and without an hand fitted quick detachable scope mount guaranteeing a perfect return to zero is not a real rifleman rifle....
I also note that many forget all the benefits that the addition of a quality diopter can bring to our ageing eyes.
This is just my personal opinion and I don't impose it on anyone.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com

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Good post as one would expect.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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when the rifle have no scope iron sights are essential. if there is a scope and the rifle have no iron sights the rifle looks like cultural bolshevism

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Funny.

I succumbed to trendy fashion and removed open sights from my Parker Hale M98 .30-06. if I could find them again, I'd restore them. Just looks better, especially now as the MontecCarlo stock was replaced with a bespoke modern "American" style classic stock.

My old Remington 788 .222 has no open sights, removed. It doesn't matter on that rifle.

Modern makers make rifles with cheap and nasty stocks, plastic, synthetic, composite, ugly rifles, no open sights, picatinny rails etc. All for cost reasons. Entirely suitable for a 6.5 Creedmoor type rifle. A classic 6.5x55 rifle would demand more style.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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