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sharps4590
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Reged: 09/03/16
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Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: Bindi2]
      #380592 - 04/11/23 12:21 AM

The middle of the Ozarks is not Germany and yes, hunting IS a sport and the challenge is very much a part of it. You embrace technology, I eschew it for sport hunting. Perhaps I would not for animal control but, that isn't hunting, that's the high side of just killing. I've taken several head of big game with flintlocks ranging from finely crafted, reproduction Jaegers to the same kind of crafted American long rifles and probably more squirrels with my 36 cal., Southern Mountain flintlock than my old scoped CZ 22. 78 in one year, 75 of which were head shots. I'd say that's a pretty good average.

In 60+ years of hunting I have had the misfortune to lose one whitetail but, I did find it later. It still bothers me. I've seen more lost by hunters using scoped rifles.

I won't write the obvious about those with beliefs of superiority.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6

Edited by sharps4590 (04/11/23 10:25 PM)


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fjrdoc
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Reged: 20/05/22
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Loc: United States
Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: sharps4590]
      #380595 - 04/11/23 05:27 AM

We all have options when it comes to hunting. Archery hunters can choose traditional recurve, compound or crossbows. Firearm hunters can choose traditional muzzleloaders, inlines, handguns, shotguns and rifles.
I have always been more of a traditionalist when it comes to rifle hunting. I hunt with a 45 caliber Pennsylvania long rifle that I made on my own. I have yet killed a deer with it but I'm trying. I own a variety of pre-war vintage hunting rifles. All of these rifles sport aperture sights. I couldn't ever bring myself to drill and tap these original receivers. That's the way I like to hunt and I will continue until my eyes dictate the use of opitics.


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lancaster
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: fjrdoc]
      #380627 - 04/11/23 11:25 PM

maybe its obsolete but a gun without looks like a woman without breast.
if you like this?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Loc: France / Germany
Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: lancaster]
      #380635 - 05/11/23 06:24 AM

There are weapons that were always designed without iron sights and that definitely have a certain style.

Here for example a Lloyd rifle caliber 7mm rem mag, a rifle specifically designed for deer hunting in Scotland.



http://gavingardiner.com/BidCat/detail.asp?SaleRef=0007&LotRef=5


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Bindi2
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Reged: 03/03/11
Posts: 80
Loc: WA, Aust
Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380649 - 05/11/23 11:42 AM


Thats not flat chested


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: Bindi2]
      #380652 - 05/11/23 07:21 PM

My .30-06 currently has no open sights. I removed the hooded front sight and the flip up rear sight in the past. Now want to find them again and put back on. Or replace.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Bindi2
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380655 - 05/11/23 10:02 PM


6 to 24x40 scope works well


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: lancaster]
      #380658 - 05/11/23 10:38 PM

Quote:

maybe its obsolete but a gun without looks like a woman without breast.
if you like this?




Like female breasts without nipples ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lancaster
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380661 - 06/11/23 03:47 AM

Quote:

There are weapons that were always designed without iron sights and that definitely have a certain style.

Here for example a Lloyd rifle caliber 7mm rem mag, a rifle specifically designed for deer hunting in Scotland.



http://gavingardiner.com/BidCat/detail.asp?SaleRef=0007&LotRef=5




despite don't like guns without iron sights I have to admit this is one of the best looking ever seen

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1275
Loc: France / Germany
Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: lancaster]
      #380665 - 06/11/23 05:51 AM

For me, a hunting rifle has normally open sights. However, every shooters, and especially long range shooters, knows that a free-swinging barrel is better in terms of precision.

David Lloyd's rifles were primarily intended for long range shooting at deers and were also zeroed in up to 400 yards, according to the customer's wishes. Strangely, Lloyd only used scopes with fixed magnification and these 4x or 6x, which is paradoxical for rifles that were intended for long range shooting. In addition, the scopes were delivered with the turrets removed, which makes subsequent regulation with another ammunition very difficult. It was a very personal concept from the manufacturer. The rifles were built from the fifties until supposedly the early nineties. According to him, it should be very robust rifles for demanding deer hunters in the highlands. By the way, David Lloyd is also the designer of the cartridge that was later called 244 H&H Magnum.

Since the ammunition with which the rifle above was regulated was not known, it was difficult to first find a suitable load and then to gain with tools an access to the control of the scope. We finally succeeded, and the rifle also shoots very accurate.


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DarylS
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380669 - 06/11/23 11:28 AM

Interesting concepts - all.

Not for me.

I decide what the rifle will shoot and at what range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Bindi2
.275 member


Reged: 03/03/11
Posts: 80
Loc: WA, Aust
Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380671 - 06/11/23 11:37 AM


Where i shoot and the type of shooting done open sights are very rare and seldom used any way.
I understand the reason why that rifle had a fixed low power scope. Many times i have cranked my variable scopes to max for a long shot then been caught out on high magnification for a very close shot.
Just for you open sight guys and gals take your open sighted 22 out to the range and try shooting matchsticks at 25 yds/M then do it with a fine cross hair scope.


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DarylS
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: Bindi2]
      #380672 - 06/11/23 11:45 AM

I understand where you are coming from, Bindi2, however my iron sighted hunting rifles are fully capable and have taken deer and moose to 200yards, which is my limit, for iron sights. Those shots were as easy as taking them with a scope, and perhaps taken more quickly as well.
.45/70 rolling block as well as 9.3x57 Husky.
When I was in my 20's or even up to about 35, I could do the matchstick deal with an iron sighted rifle (.50 cal MLoader).
The deer and moose were after that period of time. I did not need the precision of what you mention to cleanly kill both animals. Actually the deer was closer to 300yards. The 200yard shot on the moose was a chip shot - piece of cake. Boom/flap.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Bindi2
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Loc: WA, Aust
Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: DarylS]
      #380673 - 06/11/23 03:49 PM


The kinetic energy of the .50 is the killer. Just like 12bore slugs no pass through for best results.
The matchstick game got harder the further we went out but great fun and bragging rights. Some rifles were very accurate others were just hopeless.


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Loc: France / Germany
Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: DarylS]
      #380675 - 06/11/23 06:16 PM

Quote:

...

I decide what the rifle will shoot and at what range.




Lloyd's customer also decided that and after he chose his cartridge and the zeroing distance, the rifle was delivered according to his wishes.

Unfortunately, there was hardly anything that could be changed after that, but the mounts of the scopes of these weapons, according to Lloyd's concept and statement, were so strong that apparently nothing wrong more could happen.

I also find the concept very strange, because there are enough scope mounts that are very strong and allow the use of rifles with recoil on various terrain and under much more difficult conditions than a red deer hunting in Scotland. But you have to take into account the social environment and the hunting concept of a certain class of hunters from the British Islands. You look at Rigby's advertising and you will understand what I mean.

By the way, I bought this rifle by Rigby in London, but I am not a Gentleman Hunter British-style.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380676 - 06/11/23 09:01 PM

Quote:

For me, a hunting rifle has normally open sights. However, every shooters, and especially long range shooters, knows that a free-swinging barrel is better in terms of precision.

David Lloyd's rifles were primarily intended for long range shooting at deers and were also zeroed in up to 400 yards, according to the customer's wishes. Strangely, Lloyd only used scopes with fixed magnification and these 4x or 6x, which is paradoxical for rifles that were intended for long range shooting.




Must like open sights, a 4x or 6x scope is very adequate for normal hunting requirements.

My .30-06 wore a 4x scope for most of its career. Shots at pigs, goats, deer to 250 to 300 yards, very possible. The longest I took was approx. 400 yards at a herd of feral goats running along a mountain path O E by one fell off the path dead. Until I wounded one and half trouble finishing it off at the base of the cliff.

A 6x is better but lesser at closer ranges. A 4x is a better compromise. A 6x is better for shooting small game.

A 4x or 6x scope is very adequate.

Quote:


In addition, the scopes were delivered with the turrets removed, which makes subsequent regulation with another ammunition very difficult. It was a very personal concept from the manufacturer. The rifles were built from the fifties until supposedly the early nineties. According to him, it should be very robust rifles for demanding deer hunters in the highlands.




Interesting and perfectionist, but ridiculous, the turrents removed.

Quote:


By the way, David Lloyd is also the designer of the cartridge that was later called 244 H&H Magnum.




Btw is the .244 a 243/6mm cartridge? Or larger bore a la Brit nomenclature?

What sort of ballistics and bullet weights did it achieve?

Quote:


Since the ammunition with which the rifle above was regulated was not known, it was difficult to first find a suitable load and then to gain with tools an access to the control of the scope. We finally succeeded, and the rifle also shoots very accurate.




Well done.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380677 - 06/11/23 09:25 PM

Quote:

But you have to take into account the social environment and the hunting concept of a certain class of hunters from the British Islands. You look at Rigby's advertising and you will understand what I mean.

By the way, I bought this rifle by Rigby in London, but I am not a Gentleman Hunter British-style.




Can you elaborate? Just interested.

Perhaps you mean the "gentleman" huntersthe client hunter type whether in Scotland or Africa where for examplethe gamekeeper carries the rifle for the client.The PH or gamekeeper has the binoculars and sights the game. Works out the stalk. Positions the didn't hunter. Tells the the animal to shoot and where to shoot it. The client pulls the trigger, hands the rifle back Later the beast is delivered to the game skinning room the triumphant hunter toasts his success with a Scotch. ???

Not much hands on A rifle already setup to be theoretically full proof is loaned to the client.

I remember the Brit approach when hunting Roebuck in Northumberland Not as bad as I describe sarcastically above, but I get the picture. I did get to sit in a highseatby myself for a few hours in the middle of the day.

We've probably all been there or partly there. Especially with African PHs. I had one saying I didn't need binoculars as the PH does it all. All I needed was to shoot the rifle .... I asked him if the arrogant c#nt wanted to pull the trigger as well . Not those words but that attitude in my words. Most of these dumb c#nt PHs don't realise they are only used by some clients mostly because it is required by law. Access to properties could be purchased directly just like many outfitters do. Their camp setup is handy of course. They have more experience judging African trophies of course. Blacks are often very good trackers. Hiring a good one is hit and miss, so if the PH has good trackers that's a plus. Skinning,trophy prep, if you don't at home, you can do it in Africa.

A guy in the 1980s wrote articles on how to hunt South Africa solo. Hire a 4WD, What gear to buy. How one could buy access directly to game farms hunting areas. Farm staff might accompany you. How to sell the meat to reduce costs etc. I think later on banning foreign hunters from Soo hunting was enforced

Friends and acquaintances of mine used to hunt Zimbabwe solo. A local farmer provided a vehicle and camp equipment and some staff. Self hunting including buffalo and lion. They purchased hunt quotas and dates in auctions in the citizens hunting areas. With Mugabe's farm invasion era and south African white outfitters poaching Zimbabwe , these auctions were ffffed up.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (06/11/23 11:41 PM)


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380678 - 06/11/23 09:31 PM

That's the problem with the cartridge 244 H&H Magnum. Typically British, it should not be a caliber .243 but a .245, which poses a problem with the availability of bullets, and you have to reload this cartridge as there are hardly any or even no factory loads available at the moment.

Rifles of this caliber are still available used for purchase at times. Initially I wanted a Lloyd rifle in this caliber, but because of the availability of the cartridge I decided against it. In addition, the cartridge seem not to deliver ballistically what it promises. It was not a success.

David Lloyd initially wanted to produce his rifles primarily for the cartridge 244, but after that he built above all rifles in caliber 243 Winchester, 25-06 Remington, 264 Winchester Magnum, and a little bit later 7mm Rem Mag.

The cartridge 244 was handed over to the company Holland & Holland and hence the name 244 H&H Magnum. This company also built rifles for this cartridge, the used rifles which can actually be found primarily on the market.


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grandveneur
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380679 - 06/11/23 09:47 PM

Quote:

...

Can you elaborate without being rude? Just interested.

Perhaps you mean the "gentleman" huntersthe client hunter type whether in Scotland or Africa where for examplethe gamekeeper carries the rifle for the client.The PH or gamekeeper has the binoculars and sights the game. Works out the stalk. Positions the didn't hunter. Tells the the animal to shoot and where to shoot it. The client pulls the trigger, hands the rifle back Later the beast is delivered to the game skinning room the triumphant hunter toasts his success with a Scotch. ???

Not much hands on A rifle already setup to be theoretically full proof is loaned to the client.

I remember the Brit approach when hunting Roebuck in Northumberland Not as bad as I describe sarcastically above, but I get the picture. I did get to sit in a highseatby myself for a few hours in the middle of the day.

...







I don't need to explain it in more detail because you have already explained it very well.

I am not criticizing that, one can definitely go hunting with a tie and a tweet suit and then to carry a matching rifle, for certain circumstances built in such a way that the hunter believes that he is optimally equipped for the "extreme" wilderness of the Scottish highlands.

All of this is definitely not my hunting style, despite it I still like the David Lloyd rifles, but I would never take such a rifle with me to Africa or to the mountains of Central Asia.

Edited by grandveneur (06/11/23 09:52 PM)


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sharps4590
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Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: DarylS]
      #380680 - 06/11/23 11:54 PM

Quote:

Interesting concepts - all.

Not for me.

I decide what the rifle will shoot and at what range.




Precisely. No one from this board was looking over your shoulder, or mine, and is in absolutely no position to pass judgment on who is to use what. Opinions is all they are and everyone knows the truth of opinions.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380681 - 06/11/23 11:58 PM

I don't know how many Brits are reading the forum, but I don't want to annoy this group in any way. There is a certain caricature of the British hunter, just as there is a caricature of the French or German hunter. In practice, however, things often look completely different.

In the area of southwest Germany where I sometimes hunt, on driven hunts where many guests are invited, I have at times met British hunters as guests. In terms of their appearance, these hunters in no way corresponded to the cliché of the British hunter, but were hardly distinguishable from the local hunters. Their rifles was also comparable to ours, as does their concept of hunting.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380682 - 07/11/23 12:00 AM

Btw I didn't mean you would be rude. I sensed you might want to avoid criticising Brit hunting styles.

The wealthy urbanite the "city" broker, banker sort going out for a get no hands dirty shoot is very much of the scene.

I was once in a London gun show room where they were saying they knew when City brokers were getting good Christmas bonuses rather than after Christmas Party termination letters, as with the first, they received lots of new shotgun orders.

At least some brokers still just go shooting. Even if only for the annual company shoot.

This sort of behaviour is not just British by any means. Different cultures, different ways.

As for Rigby, they make excellent product. All sorts of different customers. Ordinary guys, NE members, rich guys, less rich guys, professional hunters, clients, the works. They make excellent products. Rigby filled the huge void of Mauser action rifles so demanded for many years. Not making three rifles per year like some makers but many times that.

PS some of the replies were after I started this post.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (07/11/23 12:03 AM)


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Loc: France / Germany
Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: NitroX]
      #380683 - 07/11/23 12:09 AM

Again, I definitely don't want to criticize the British hunting style. In the family we are more Scottish friendly than English friendly, but that is a different topic.

All comments refer to the Lloyd rifles which, as already mentioned, are more rifles for urban people who want to penetrate the wilderness.


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lancaster
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380690 - 07/11/23 05:34 AM

Quote:

In addition, the cartridge seem not to deliver ballistically what it promises. It was not a success.





how many times have we read this about new wonder cartridges when the first excitement was gone.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
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Re: Are Iron Sights Obsolete? [Re: grandveneur]
      #380691 - 07/11/23 09:08 AM

Quote:

There are weapons that were always designed without iron sights and that definitely have a certain style.

Here for example a Lloyd rifle caliber 7mm rem mag, a rifle specifically designed for deer hunting in Scotland.



http://gavingardiner.com/BidCat/detail.asp?SaleRef=0007&LotRef=5




Please excuse my ignorance but what action did Lloyd use? That looks a bit like a Rem Model 30, a factory rebuild of the M17.


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