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CarlsenHighway
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The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge
      #368430 - 18/08/22 09:04 AM

What I mean by this, is that it doesn't exist.

There is no such thing as a .275 ""Rigby"" cartridge.

Its a name made up by modern American gun writers from a misunderstanding. The cartridge was just called a .275. The rifle was called a Rigby-Mauser. Rigby sold Mauser rifles under that brand name.

The 7mm Mauser cartridge was never a Rigby proprietary cartridge (it was military for several countries). Rigby did not sell it as the .275 Rigby on their own brand of ammo , they called it the .275 bore, and they stamped their rifles the same. There is no mention of .275 Rigby in any of their catalogs - or by anyone else. The earliest reference is from an American gun writer in 1970.

The two most famous users of the .275 / 7mm Mauser would have to be WDM Bell, who famously shot 800 bull elephant with one and Jim Corbett of India who shot at least one man eating tiger with one. Both of them referred to the cartridge variously as the .275, the .276, the 7mm, the 7mm Mauser or to the cartridge and rifle together: the .275 in a Rigby-Mauser.

British website and auction houses are often more correct and dont fall for this (apart from Rigby themselves, who must be delighted).

It started with Jack O'Conner with an article in 1970, where he mistook the Rigby name as referring to the cartridge and not the rifle, and people have been running with it ever since. It's now all over the internet as if it's a valid thing, and no article on the 7x57 is ever innocent of mentioning it. Even responsible people like Craig Boddington and John Barsness, have all fallen for this. Hornady have brought out 7mm brass headstamped .275 Rigby. Even Rigby themselves (the new company) - who should know better - now sell ammunition headstamped .275 Rigby (which they may not, they all seem very young.) Original .275 Hi-velocity cartridges of the early 20th century are stamped Roth, which was the German made ammunition that Rigby repackaged and sold as their own.

Meanwhile sundry people are building 7x57 custom rifles and having them marked "".275 Rigby"" because they like the traditional British old-world sound of it.

It's essentially become a true thing. And it sounds like it should be right. People believe it when they hear it. The power of the internet has made it so. But its just a .275. Or a 7mm Mauser.







--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #368433 - 18/08/22 03:55 PM

Image below showing labelling of the lid end of the same old Rigby ammo box with ammunition referred to as .275 Mauser not .275 Rigby. Pity cartridge head-stamps can't be seen to confirm exactly what nomenclature was applied to the ammunition. I'm betting most likely 7x57 or in keeping with the age, 7mm Mauser.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: eagle27]
      #368434 - 18/08/22 04:47 PM

Rifles engraved as Rigby .275 Bore, effectively the same thing.

What does Kynoch ammo boxes say?

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #368435 - 18/08/22 07:29 PM

Google image search.

Boxes appear to be labelled either as:

- 7 mm Mauser; &

- .275 Magnum Rimless - for Holland & Holland rifles.

Adding credibility to opening poster's argument.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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cooch
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #368437 - 18/08/22 07:49 PM

“There’s no such thing”

It would appear that there is.... now.

Given that the majority of cartridges and named according to some inventor or manufacturer’s whimsy, it’s hard to argue otherwise.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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CarlsenHighway
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Reged: 19/03/09
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Loc: Port Chalmers, New Zealand
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: cooch]
      #368442 - 18/08/22 09:43 PM

You might argue that it doesn't matter, and that it has now been invented by common useage, except for the fact that the entire cachet of the cartridge name is based purely on nostalgia; whenever it is mentioned in an American article for example, it's always in a historical sense. And when someone stamps it on a custom rifle it is to hark back to old world British big game sporting rifles.

But if it didn't exist in the past, then there is no nostalgia and there is no history. Then it's just a mistake.

Another example: In the Rigby ledgers the six 7mm sporting rifles that WDM Bell bought from them between 1910 and 1923 are all recorded as ".275 High velocity Mauser". (This to show that even Rigby didn't call the chambering a .275 Rigby - back when they were supposedly making them.)

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Huvius
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #368446 - 19/08/22 01:45 AM

I think the "Rigby" ID is that of the cartridges loaded with the 140gr bullet at higher velocity than the standard 7X57
It was Rigby's loading for their rifles sighted to that load.
Bell famously used the military ammunition for elephant so it would seem that, if there was any difference in POI, he compensated for that.

Also, what of the many modern rifles stamped "275 Rigby" - do you need to have ammunition headstamped the same to get through Customs in Africa? I've heard that is the case but don't know for sure.

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #368448 - 19/08/22 02:37 AM

Quote:



But if it didn't exist in the past, then there is no nostalgia and there is no history. Then it's just a mistake.





totally agree with this

--------------------
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.
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #368449 - 19/08/22 07:51 PM

Well the 7x57 or7mm Mauser or .275 Mauser ...

Rigby historically have been smart labelling their rifles:
"Rigby .275 bore".

Gunwriters picked it up. It has become part of general popular usage.


The association with Rigby is probably due to in English speaking countries the popularity of .275 rifles and the chamerbing by Rigby.

At one time, still? Gunwriters blab the 7x57 is a dead cartridge. So unpopular it no longer exists. I remember reading an article where the writer discussed how the 7x57 loaded ammo was unpowered. Due to 7x57 loaded ammo needing to cope with older rifles not capable of modern pressures. Some military rolling block single shots or some such.

The 7mm/08 is a dead cartridge, not the 7x57. The7mm/08 was the must have creedmoor of the day.


Accidentally the .275 Rigby nomenclature is accidentally sort of like many modern words where the originally meanings have been completely changed on purpose. And 99% of people parrot these words with the new meanings.

Btw I always preferred the nomenclature 7x57 and perhaps 7mm Mauser. The ".275 Rigby" always sounded affected.

Not that I wouldn't mind a vintage Rigby, WR, Jeffery or H&H .275 bore classic sporter.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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crshelton
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #368450 - 19/08/22 10:07 PM

As stated previously, "You might argue that it doesn't matter, "

--------------------
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kuduae
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: crshelton]
      #368451 - 20/08/22 01:25 AM

Quote:

I think the "Rigby" ID is that of the cartridges loaded with the 140gr bullet at higher velocity than the standard 7X57
It was Rigby's loading for their rifles sighted to that load.
Bell famously used the military ammunition for elephant so it would seem that, if there was any difference in POI, he compensated for that.



Rigby’s 1924 catalog showed two models of their .275 rifles: Their No.1 was sighted for the standard 7x57 / 7mm Mauser load with 175 gr bullets, while their No.2 was sighted for the 140 gr High Velocity load. The sighting seems to be the only difference. So Bell may have used the No.1 model.
BTW, that catalog listed a No.4 model in .350 Magnum and a No.5 in .416 “Big Game” too. None of the cartridges were called “Rigby” by them.



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kuduae
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
      #368453 - 20/08/22 01:40 AM

Manton’s, Calcutta, 1925 catalog called the 7x57 175 gr load “.275 MAUSER”, while the 140 gr load was the “.275 RIGBY, No. 2 H.V.”.

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lancaster
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
      #368457 - 20/08/22 02:41 AM

if you hold all facts here in line you must come to the conclusion in the end the .275 mauser cartridge is exactly this - a .275/ 7x57 chambered in a mauser rifle, sometimes build into a sporting rifle by Rigby.

personel must say ".275 Rigby" looks allways a little bit gay in my eyes and after this thread I know why!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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sharps4590
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #368467 - 20/08/22 10:14 PM

It's more accurate than using "caliber" for "cartridge."

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: sharps4590]
      #368471 - 21/08/22 02:39 AM

Quote:

It's more accurate than using "caliber" for "cartridge."




I absolutely agree.

A pet dislike for me.

Cartridge chamberings is what people often call "calibre".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Marrakai
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #368481 - 21/08/22 09:38 AM

I have always preferred "chambering" myself.

On topic, I think "Rigby's .275" but usually type ".275 Rigby".

If Manton's of Calcutta called the 140gr loading ".275 Rigby" in 1925, that's hardly fantasy.
Good enough for me!

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Marrakai]
      #373218 - 17/01/23 02:12 AM

I've posted this discussion on the NE Facebook group.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #373233 - 17/01/23 01:19 PM

I wonder what length barrel the .275 140gr load was chronographed in. Probably 28" which is usual par for the course for the English when chronographing their ammunition. With the Rigby No 2 rifle having a 23.5" barrel Rigby were stretching the truth somewhat with their advertised MV of 3000fps.
I can't imagine them loading to much over the lower pressure level that the 7x57/.275 would have been loaded back in those days.

It is not possible or easy to get the 7mm-08 in modern loadings up to a MV of 3000fps with a 140gr bullet in a 24" barrel (Hornady Superformance gets to 2950fps with a 139gr bullet and their special powder - 2900fps in a 24" barrel I have chronographed) and while the 7x57 cartridge has a little more case capacity, powders and pressure specifications of the day wouldn't have seen the .275 cartridge for the Rigby No.2 approaching anywhere near 3000fps MV.
Nevertheless I imagine the lighter bullet at somewhere round 2800fps MV, maybe optimistic at that, would have been a better performer on smaller game than the commonly loaded slow heavy 175gr bullet.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: eagle27]
      #373239 - 18/01/23 12:26 AM

To assume old factory loadings is biased against the 7x57. A lot of factory ammo was risk adverse under loaded because of ancient rolling block military 7x57s ... At least per an article I read decades ago. A reason the 7x57 was regarded as a lacklustre cartridge. Underloaded factory ammunition inlaw suit happy USA. Also the USA with the insistence of factory ammunition. Most other places hand loading is far more the norm. And the larger powder capacity shoukd easily outdo the 7mm08 with reasonable handloads. Sure not by much but ...

The .275 HV ammo for the 7x57 I would guess were NOT limited by under loading? Designed for specific Mauser 98 rifles. Still were around a long enough time ago it should be possible to exceed today.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #373242 - 18/01/23 05:06 AM

CIP (European Law) pressure limit on the 7x57(.276) case, was and is 57,000PSI/49,000CUP. That is only 4,000PSI/3,000cup under the 7mm/08's 61,000PSI/52,000CUP,
however, that difference will pretty much make up for the larger case of the 7mm vs. the 7mm/08, thus max. vel. at their pressure limits should be about equal.
Norma is one of the Euro companies who appears to load to the CIP specs, of course.

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"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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eagle27
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #373250 - 18/01/23 08:22 AM

I recall Norma 150gr factory loads back in the 60's and 70's were around 2800fps MV so yes Norma did load to the CIP specs. Unfortunately they were the exception and even today almost all 7x57 factory loads from various manufacturers, both European and American, are down quite a bit in MV compared to the 7mm-08 loadings.

The Brits underloaded most of their cartridges because they didn't have the powders back then, even when they went from cordite to the nitrocellulose granular powders such as the Nobel range they still tended to underload.

While the 7x57/.275 can definitely be improved and loaded to the same if not higher level than the 7mm-08, the vast majority of shooters are not hand-loaders.


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DarylS
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: eagle27]
      #373251 - 18/01/23 08:26 AM

All my life, if I hadn't loaded my own, for everything but rim fire, I wouldn't
have been able to shoot enough to become reasonably proficient at the game.
I loaded my Ruger #1 with 140gr. Partitions at 2,940fps. It had a 22" bl. Reloader 19, seems to me, offhand. Same load as in Nosler's book, but got a bit more speed. They listed 2,890 something from a 24" bl.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Marrakai
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #373258 - 18/01/23 10:18 AM

Not long after acquiring my pre-WWI Rigby .275 (chambered for the ".275 Rigby" cartridge) I pushed the load development and got to around 2980 fps IIRC before (very) slight resistance to bolt-lift after firing. I was chasing the published 3000 fps with the 140-grainer, just to see if it could be done with modern powders, but I am fairly conservative so after discovering that was the probable limit I have since backed off to a bit under 2950 fps as a working load.
Barrel is only 22 inches. Reckon I would have safely achieved 3000fps with a 24-inch barrel, but that's just a number...
Not worth pushing it on hundred-year-old rifles!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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DarylS
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Marrakai]
      #373259 - 18/01/23 11:20 AM

My BRNO 7x57 ran 2,730fps or so, with a 160gr. TSX. It had a 23.4" bl. I think.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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3DogMike
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Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #373322 - 20/01/23 10:53 AM

It is interesting the Rigby literature claim of 3000'/sec for their .275HV in the Rigby Mauser Model #2 rifle. Perhaps a bit of "artistic license" as to the claimed muzzle velocity?

Other sources like John Taylor give a speed of 2750'/sec and Cartridges of the World attributed 2800'/sec.

Certainly the average hunter/shooter back in the day did not have access to any kind of chronograph, but hey, catalog speed sounded good and maybe led to spirited campfire debate?

One of these days I may be lucky enough to come across a vintage box of Kynoch .275 HV ammo and I will certainly sacrifice 3 rounds to my LabRadar chronograph and my original 1936 Rigby "Sighted For High Velocity .275 Bore Cartridge" rifle.

Personally, given the powders available in the 1920's & 1930's, I'm betting closer to the 2750-2800 number…..

- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

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