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Ripp
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The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards
      #340618 - 02/05/20 12:18 AM

https://gundigest.com/rifles/hunting-rif...848603692364407

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DarylS
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Ripp]
      #340621 - 02/05/20 12:48 AM

Good article, RIPP. Interesting that the ballistics are quite similar to the .35 Whelen, although with smaller bullet.
Contrary to the COTW listed ctg. dimensions, the shoulder does appear somewhat larger than the Whelen ctg.
more in line with the 9.3x62, ie: .454" rather than the .445"listed. The .445" might/must be a typo.
Seems to me we had some .318 Express ammo in the store in Vancouver & I thought it had the same shoulder dia. as all standard case Ackley ctgs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Marrakai
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: DarylS]
      #340640 - 02/05/20 11:55 AM

Agreed: very good article.
The .318 WR is an itch I have been needing to scratch for a long time now.
In fact I just had a conversation with a barrel supplier 2 days ago.

Foolishly hesitated for just 24hrs on an original Westley Richards Mauser in this chambering about 25 years ago, and missed out! It had side panels, shadow-line cheek piece, horn bolt-knob, stupidly long barrel, about 4 different sighting systems on the one rifle, you know the style!
Regret can be a cruel life-long companion...!

The .338-06 I built in the interim has identical ballistics but just doesn't seem "pukka" by comparison.

Reading that article has helped strengthen my resolve. Thanks, Ripp!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Marrakai]
      #340648 - 02/05/20 08:51 PM

Quote:

Agreed: very good article.
The .318 WR is an itch I have been needing to scratch for a long time now.
In fact I just had a conversation with a barrel supplier 2 days ago.




Tell me about it!


Quote:


The .338-06 I built in the interim has identical ballistics but just doesn't seem "pukka" by comparison.




Not pukka one little bit, old chap.

I would like a vintage .318 WR, but probably couldn't afford one. I also want one with a scope in QD mounts, but also express sights and a bolt shroud peep sight, or a pop up peep sight. And a re dot sight to able to be put on a QD base as well. Nothing like total redundancy!

A custom built rifle would be nice and built perfectly the way I want one. But again $$$.

So a half way house solution would be to obtain a CZ in say .30-06 and rebore or rebarrel. And build the custom rifle bit by bit in stages. Need $$$ for the CZ as well, but also finding the right one. I want one with a pop up peep sight. They are neat the ZKK 600 or thereabouts that model.

An advantage of the non-pukka .338/06 or the 8.5x63 is all the lovely bullets available for the .338 calibre, from 160 gr to 300 grs. Bertram makes a 180 gr for plinking and lighter game, Woodleigh and Bertram 250 gr for the same or for buffalo.

I don't know if I could do it, to re-barrel my existing .30-06 to .318 WR and add some open sights to it ??? Everyone needs a .30-06 though. And it is still my MAIN deer hunting choice rifle. Loading 250 gr .30 calibre bullets would probably do the same as the .318 anyway .....

Always too many choices ....

--------------------
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Carpetsahib
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340671 - 03/05/20 05:10 AM

How about squeezing .338 diameter bullets down to .330 for the .318. Xausa has had good results doing this in other calibers, using Lee sizing dies.

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DarylS
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #340672 - 03/05/20 06:26 AM

Yes- .338's can be sized down to .330" quite easily.
Lee has made this set of dies for a friend of mine - a 3-die set. I think they were $30.00ea.
He also got a set for sizing .323's down to .315 for a .303 he had.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: DarylS]
      #340690 - 03/05/20 03:01 PM

sizing down .338 to .330 for the M 95 Mannlicher in 8x56R is common for decades

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Marrakai
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: lancaster]
      #340705 - 03/05/20 09:21 PM

Those 205gr .330 Hornadys come up for sale in Oz every now and again: I have a modest stash to use on the range when the day arrives, and the heavier Woodleighs are readily available for the hunting field.
And not to forget Bertram's bullets as well.
Life is good.
Nothing kills the enthusiasm for a vintage chambering quicker than no available reloading components!

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Marrakai
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--------------------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Marrakai]
      #340712 - 03/05/20 10:46 PM

A lot of the .338 lighter projectiles are monometal bullets which I assume do not size down well at all?

And what about partition style projectiles. The H jacket section, I would think does not size well at all?

Correct me if I am wrong.

I like the idea of a .318 WR and using 160 to 180 gr HUNTING projectiles for the like of fallow, chital, red deer etc.

Soft non controlled expansion bullets might be fine for a lot of paper and competition shooting, or for feral goats or most feral pigs. But a trophy red deer hunt, I'd like a 180 gr quality controlled expansion projectile.

Marrakai,

I would love to know who sometimes sells those Hornady's. As for reloading components, no rifle yet, no dies yet, but I do have a walnut blank, and I think a supply of .318 WR Bertram head stamped brass! I know .30-06's can also be used. I think I have some Bertram 180 gr projectiles. I should lay up some of the others including Woodleighs. And dies. Then finally the rifle! And probably sell them all off oneday!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340715 - 04/05/20 12:50 AM

The Nos. Partitions & Swift A-frames might size down really hard, and mono's a no-go.
If the .375's down to .366" are any indication, the cup and core bullets might actually get tougher with the sizing.
This happened to the 270gr. Hornady SP's Rod first did as well as the 235gr. Speers & the 225gr. Horn. SP's.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: DarylS]
      #340731 - 04/05/20 07:32 AM

Some possibilities:

Quote:

.318 WR .330

.318 Westley Richards

Also the 8x56R Hungarian Steyr

Woodleigh
63 318 Westly Richards .330" 250gr RN SN
64 250gr FMJ

Betram
SP 180 Gr
SP 250 Gr

prvipartizan
Art. Calibre Dia. (inch) Bullet Type Bullet
Weight (g) Bullet
Weight (gr)
B-384 8 mm 0.330 FMJ BT 13.50 208
B-561 8 mm 0.330 SP 13.50 208

Hawk
Round Tip
200 grains x .035 RT $45.50

Buffalo Arms
https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloading-supplies-accessories/jacketed-lead-copper-coated-bullets
.329" Diameter 150 Grain Spitzer Bullet for 8X56R Hungarian Bag of 100
.329" Diameter 175 Grain Spitzer SP Bullet for 8X56R Bag of 100
.329" Diameter 200 Grain Spitzer SP Jacketed Bullet for 8x56R Bag of 50
.329" Diameter 205 Grain Spitzer SP Jacketed Bullet for 8x56R Bag of 100

Hornady - available from Grafs and Buffalo Arms
https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/73644
.330" Dia. 205 Grn. Spire Point Jacketed Bullets Box of 100


Potential for re-sizing

Woodleigh
60 333 Jeffery .333" 250gr RN SN
61 300gr RN SN
62 300gr FMJ

Woodleigh
56C 338 Fed 338/06 .338" 180gr PP SN
56D 200gr PP SN






http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=301927&page=0&vc=1

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Rule303
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340735 - 04/05/20 10:04 AM

Good article. Thanks for posting Ripp.

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szihn
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Rule303]
      #340737 - 04/05/20 12:25 PM

I am not surprised at the fanfare and was attached to the old 318 way back in the day.

I have never used (or seen used) a 318 WR. But I have the 338-06 quite a few times. The 2 rounds are very similar in performance when complaining bullet weight and velocity.

In my 338-06 rifles I have used the 210 grain Nosler Partition the 250 grain Partition and the old 275 gr Speer.

One of the fastest kills I ever made on an elk was with a 338-06 and the 275 gr Speer. Shot was about 165 yards with the bull walking away at a 45 degree angle. I fired for mid body and wanted to run the bullet from center chest to the base of the neck on the off side. At the shot the bull simply dropped like all it's legs disappeared. I was glad, but thought I must have pulled high and spine shot it. Nope. The bullet hit exactly where I intended it to go, and only hit a rib going in, went full length across the forward part of the body and exited in the neck about 3" to the other side of center. No major bone was hit. I was wide-eyed when it hit the ground like it fell into a pit. Considering the lack on damage to the bones, it was amazing how fast the elk dropped.

I have talked to a few other hunters and all have said the 338-06 is a real killer on about everything. Results are consistent. (I like that) Not always "electric" like the elk I described above, but VERY short blood trails are the rule.

Considering the 318 and the 338-06 are almost the "same thing" with only .008" difference in diameter and no difference in speed or bullet weights. I have no doubt the old Westley Richards would become the darling of many in the old days of Africa.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: szihn]
      #340763 - 05/05/20 10:36 AM

The initially wildcat .338/06. later legitimised and the .338 Win Mag were "copies" of the .318 WR. In Europe they copied these with the 8.5x63, essentially another .338/06 I believe. I assume it is the same case head?

If I lived in the USA or Canada, I would definitely have a .338/06.

I did consider a 8.5x63 barrel for my Mauser M03, but at $2500 for just a barrel .... and close to my 8x68S anyway. Since then Mauser has ffffed up its line up with "rationalisation" and Blaser has downgraded the choices at its group company. So little options now available. Cheaper rifles, lesser ranges. Killing off a brand.

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Homer
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340807 - 06/05/20 07:43 AM

G'Dasy Fella's,

I noticed the following .318 WR, on " https://www.usedguns.com.au/used-guns-whats-new " yesterday.
--------------------------
Calibre/Item: 318 Westley Richard
Make: Enfield
Model: SMLE
Action: Bolt repeater
Scope: Peep sight / 4X
Serial No: P8239
Condition: Good
Price: $595
Advertised: 5/05/2020
Licence number: 405578863
Phone: 02 9740 9760
Comment: 318 Westley Richards in a SMLE. Has a 4X scope and a peep sight. Has some carving to the woodwork.
Transfering dealer: Safari Firearms 146 Stoney Creek Rd Bexley NSW
----------------------------
This would be a Cheap entry into a .318WR, if you really needed one.

D'oh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Marrakai
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Homer]
      #340809 - 06/05/20 09:53 AM

Someone should call the seller and find out if it feeds from the magazine.
Don't like to be a tyre-kicker myself...

Bit of an arty-farty stock on that thing!

...and its not the first .318WR-chambered SMLE to be offered in recent months! What gives?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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jvw
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Marrakai]
      #340813 - 06/05/20 04:32 PM

I used a 1928-vintage for a number of years and the cartridge is, in one word, DEADLY. It punches above its weight, performance-wise, and performs more like a 9,3x62 than a lighter cartridge. The 250-grain Woodleigh soft is also in a class of its own. It penetrates deep and straight and mushrooms beautifully.

Its one cartridge I will buy in a heartbeat again.


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Homer
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Marrakai]
      #340816 - 06/05/20 05:33 PM

Quote:

Someone should call the seller and find out if it feeds from the magazine.
Don't like to be a tyre-kicker myself...

Bit of an arty-farty stock on that thing!

...and its not the first .318WR-chambered SMLE to be offered in recent months! What gives?




The above advertised SMLE .318 WR, was with a number of other older style firearm, so I imaging it's another one of us Old Codgers, has Fallen off the Perch.
So Marrakai I assumed it/they, all came from Deceased Estate, and it may be a bit late, to ask the owner, if it feeds from the mag?

Hope that helps
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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xausa
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Homer]
      #340818 - 06/05/20 06:29 PM

Back in the early 1970's, when I was embarking on an ill fated attempt at being a firearms dealer, I had the run of Kenya Bunduki in Nairobi's walk-in vault. I ended up coming away with a collection of largely shot out and abused African rifles, among them several in caliber .318 Westley Richards. I paid a pittance for them and sold them for not a lot more. I wish I had saved one or two of the better ones, but the ammunition question was an insurmountable problem at the time.

Several years later I encountered a person with a large collection of Kynoch bullets of various calibers, including .510", which I needed at the time, .410" which I later acquired a need for and a selection of both soft nose and solid bullets for the .318. I bought the whole lot and have gradually put the various calibers to good use.

Years later I had an FN action barreled in the caliber and returned to me in the white, so that I could decide whether to proceed further with it. I developed some loads and sighted it in, but so far have never used it on game, but who knows, maybe this is the year! It's a little too powerful for the local white tails, but I don't imagine they would complain.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Homer]
      #340822 - 06/05/20 11:46 PM

Quote:

G'Dasy Fella's,

I noticed the following .318 WR, on " https://www.usedguns.com.au/used-guns-whats-new " yesterday.
--------------------------
Calibre/Item: 318 Westley Richard
Make: Enfield
Model: SMLE
Action: Bolt repeater
Scope: Peep sight / 4X
Serial No: P8239
Condition: Good
Price: $595
Advertised: 5/05/2020
Licence number: 405578863
Phone: 02 9740 9760
Comment: 318 Westley Richards in a SMLE. Has a 4X scope and a peep sight. Has some carving to the woodwork.
Transfering dealer: Safari Firearms 146 Stoney Creek Rd Bexley NSW
----------------------------
This would be a Cheap entry into a .318WR, if you really needed one.

D'oh!
Homer




I hope it is just the photo but it it looks very ugly in the photo.



If it feeds well and can take 8 rounds, a fast shooting rifle for the BGRC rapid fire, 8 rounds, min'm .330 calibre event. No need to reload.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340823 - 06/05/20 11:52 PM

BTW I think I need to get a Rigby or perhaps a Holland & Holland or a Purdey cardboard rifle box to lie all of my non rifles of those brands on for photos in adverts ... like some seller has for a dozen photos. The first I kept re-reading trying to work out how the shotgun related to a Rigby ... it did not of course. Dickhead.



An LC Smith ...



An FN ...

Well this one looks like a Rigby, the rifle starts with R at least , Rem 788 ...



A lot of others, twit.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340827 - 07/05/20 12:48 AM

A question regarding the .318 WR and converting a .30-06 to a .330 bore .318 WR.

Can the barrel re-bored from .308 to .330 bore?

And is there someone in Australia who can still do this?

I assume the .30-06 chamber can be modified to a .318 WR chamber?

I believe some people don't do this, and use .30-06 brass instead. Comments?

I think I would want the chamber to be correct for the .318 WR. I have not looked at what the differences are.

Or is it far more advisable to source a new barrel for the purpose?

What is the optimum barrel length? I assume 24 inch would be pretty fair and ideal for the ballistics and also usage in the field.

What barrel length did the usual length were the usual vintage Westley Richards .318 WRs? Many of the vintage rifles appear to have quite long barrels. This might be sometimes relative as the fore-ends are often shorter.

This is a possible donor rifle,a ZKK 600 available. For a WIP project. If it has the right features.

One thing is that the CZ/Brno ZKK's have always been a little chunky for my tastes ... but if the rifle is availble might be a start. Need to find the dollars as well, and even more so, will be a test of whether I can get a PTA.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340832 - 07/05/20 02:44 AM

I had a 600 in 7x57 - did not think of it as clunky. It handled extremely well, I thought.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: DarylS]
      #340833 - 07/05/20 04:25 AM

Chunky not clunky.

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340839 - 07/05/20 05:22 AM

just compare the measurments by yourself





but it looks like the 308 shoulder is much bigger so the chamber reamer dont clean it up. better to start with another barrel blank.
I dont know if anyone making barrels for the .318 now, maybe american custom barrel maker but in australia? lothar walther in germany dont offer them.

if you find a french machine gun barrel for the 8x50R lebel, the 8 mm lebel shoots a 8,30 mm bullet what I think is fine for the 8,32 mm of the .318. machine gun parts are restricted in many countrys but if you cut off the chamber its a common barrel blank. this way I made my 7,62x39 Carcano barrel by using a finnish maxim gun barrel in 7,62x54R were the orignal chamber was cut off before.
machine gun barrels are usually very thick in diameter.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (07/05/20 05:35 AM)


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Carpetsahib
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: lancaster]
      #340840 - 07/05/20 07:29 AM

Does anyone have a drawing and/or information on the .318 WR version with a 90 degree shoulder. I have only read that there was such a beast, but info is scarce.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340841 - 07/05/20 07:54 AM

John, the Special Snap event is 8 rounds but you may only load 4 to start with regardless of magazine capacity.

Matt.

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DarylS
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #340842 - 07/05/20 07:58 AM

Saw a picture once of a .318 with the same shoulder appearance as the .416 Rigby.

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Daryl


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340843 - 07/05/20 08:00 AM

John, you would be much better of starting with a new barrel. Alan Swan Barrels in Queensland and Lothar Walther of Germany make barrels in 0.330". Alan Swan barrels are very good and they are very well priced. They will do any length and profile you want. They are also very pleasant to deal with.

Matt.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: lancaster]
      #340856 - 07/05/20 09:06 PM

Thanks Lancaster. People seem to be able to get barrels (I hope) so no need for an ex-machine gun barrel! I will have enough trouble getting a PTA (permit to acquire) I think without using a machine gun barrel.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #340857 - 07/05/20 09:11 PM

Quote:

John, the Special Snap event is 8 rounds but you may only load 4 to start with regardless of magazine capacity.





No problem, not going to buy a SMLE conversion.

BTW can you use a magazine rifle, with a second magazine pre-charged?

Or do the second lot of four rounds need to be individually loaded?


Quote:

John, you would be much better of starting with a new barrel. Alan Swan Barrels in Queensland and Lothar Walther of Germany make barrels in 0.330". Alan Swan barrels are very good and they are very well priced. They will do any length and profile you want. They are also very pleasant to deal with.




Matt, that does seem to be the case. Since Sprinter Arms has gone, not sure if anyone is doing re-boring jobs anyway? Do you know? Sprinter in Hahndorf was close by years ago. Will have to see if either of those do supply them eg Swan.

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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340858 - 07/05/20 09:13 PM

The other questions were on barrel length, plus what profile is the "norm"?

Quote:

What is the optimum barrel length? I assume 24 inch would be pretty fair and ideal for the ballistics and also usage in the field.

What barrel length did the usual length were the usual vintage Westley Richards .318 WRs? Many of the vintage rifles appear to have quite long barrels. This might be sometimes relative as the fore-ends are often shorter.




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Waidmannsheil
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340859 - 07/05/20 09:20 PM

John, yes you can use a second magazine pre-charged with four rounds.

Matt.

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4seventy
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340873 - 08/05/20 08:58 AM

Quote:

The other questions were on barrel length, plus what profile is the "norm"?

Quote:

What is the optimum barrel length? I assume 24 inch would be pretty fair and ideal for the ballistics and also usage in the field.

What barrel length did the usual length were the usual vintage Westley Richards .318 WRs? Many of the vintage rifles appear to have quite long barrels. This might be sometimes relative as the fore-ends are often shorter.







Type A 318 WR

John here is a link to some Type A Mauser measurement details for the 318 (and others) which might be of interest, from the awesome Westley Richards 'The Explora' website.
If you search 318 on that site there are several rifles, both vintage and modern which are definitely worth checking out.


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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: 4seventy]
      #340877 - 08/05/20 07:42 PM

Thanks.

--------------------
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #340898 - 09/05/20 08:35 PM

The ZKK 600 in .30-06 I thought might be a project rifle I have decided to not progress. Good decades old ZKK rifle, for $900. Including fixed mounts and some scope.

But no pop up peep sight which I am looking for.

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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #343957 - 02/08/20 11:09 PM

An original Westley Richards in .318 is high on the list of my grail guns. I would love to try wing shooting Cormorants with one!

Since I have never been to Africa can someone tell me if they actually check the headstamps on cases to verify if they match the rifle’s chambering?


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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: pacecars]
      #343983 - 03/08/20 05:27 PM

Quote:

An original Westley Richards in .318 is high on the list of my grail guns. I would love to try wing shooting Cormorants with one!

Since I have never been to Africa can someone tell me if they actually check the headstamps on cases to verify if they match the rifle’s chambering?




Never for me. Zimbabwe, South Africa and Namibia. In Namibia they did count the number of cartridges. Boofheads trying to be important ....

Other persons have said they have had them checked.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Ripp
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #343995 - 04/08/20 01:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

An original Westley Richards in .318 is high on the list of my grail guns. I would love to try wing shooting Cormorants with one!

Since I have never been to Africa can someone tell me if they actually check the headstamps on cases to verify if they match the rifle’s chambering?




Never for me. Zimbabwe, South Africa and Namibia. In Namibia they did count the number of cartridges. Boofheads trying to be important ....

Other persons have said they have had them checked.




Never for me either with the exception of Cameroon.. they were nuts over there..biggest pain in the ass place I have ever hunted.. and corrupt beyond imagination..

The counting of ammo is not uncommon..even outside of Africa..Russia, Kyrgyzstan, Azerbaijan, Turkey ..all have counted ammo

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Edited by Ripp (04/08/20 01:52 AM)


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grandveneur
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Ripp]
      #379293 - 12/09/23 04:01 PM

I have no experience with the cartridge 318 Westley Richards and don't want to criticize it. It is certainly a good cartridge, but due to the length of 60mm of it case, the caliber of 330/8,4mm and the load of a bullet weight of 250gr, at first glance I don't see a clear advantage for hunting compared to a cartridge 8x57IS, 8x60S or 8x64S, all cartridges that can be loaded with a 220gr bullet or even heavier. For the latter there are several factory loads, which doesn't seem to be the case for the cartridge 318 Westley Richards.

The cartridge 318 Westley Richards certainly has, as hunting in Africa is concerned, an aura that the others cartridges quoted do not have.

The same applies to the cartridge 333 Jeffery.


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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: grandveneur]
      #379294 - 12/09/23 04:29 PM

Quote:

the caliber of 330/8,4mm and the load of a bullet weight of 250gr, at first glance I don't see a clear advantage for hunting compared to a cartridge 8x57IS, 8x60S or 8x64S, all cartridges that can be loaded with a 220gr bullet or even heavier. For the latter there are several factory loads, which doesn't seem to be the case for the cartridge 318 Westley Richards.




Please elaborate on the heavier than 220 gr projectiles for .323/8mm.

I like to have 250 gr bullets for my 8x68S. Or heavier bullets than 220 gr. Woodleigh did made a 250 gr SP.

Ideally a matched SP and FMJ in the same weight 250, 240, even 220 gr. Well constructed SP and FMJ.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #379295 - 12/09/23 04:42 PM

John, I have some 250 grain Woodleigh's in 8mm if you are interested which I intend to sell.


Matt.

--------------------
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #379298 - 12/09/23 04:58 PM

Quote:

John, I have some 250 grain Woodleigh's in 8mm if you are interested which I intend to sell.


Matt.




PM me. How many and how much? Thanks.

Hopefully Woodleigh remakes them again.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (12/09/23 05:00 PM)


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grandveneur
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #379304 - 12/09/23 09:43 PM

I actually did not want to start a discussion about reloading the cartridge 8x57 and similar. My main concern was the cartridge 318 Westley Richards and that someone demonstrating to me what advantages it offers compared to the other cartridges. A 30gr difference in bullet weight is certainly not relevant by hunting.

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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: grandveneur]
      #379308 - 13/09/23 12:14 AM

Sectional density is very relevant to pentration ability. There is a "sweet spot" for most calibres.

Always a marginal difference, but marginal differences add up.

--------------------
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #379311 - 13/09/23 01:46 AM

In cup and lead core bullets, a sectional density of over 300, is/was normally considered optimal for the deepest penetration.
The 250gr. .330" bullet had an SD of well over 300, IIRC.

--------------------
Daryl


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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: DarylS]
      #379314 - 13/09/23 01:59 AM

Would be an easy peasey job to draw down .338 lead core bullets to .330 (or, come to think of it, whatever the groove actually was on an old rifle...are they ALWAYS spot on .330? Dunno.)

--------------------
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: 9.3x57]
      #379321 - 13/09/23 02:50 AM

As I posted some years ago here:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=329611&an=0&page=3#Post329611

Quote:

A question. Why is a 8x60S so impressive when compared to say a .30-06? Shorter case. Is powder capacity also lesser in the 8x60m or is it a blown out case? .323 (or .318 calibre, so in theory can use a heavier bullet than .30 calibres. But you can get .308 250 grs, just like you can get 250 gr 8mm. Lesser range of projectiles, and in particular less choice of premium projectiles.
So don't understand why it is much different from the 8x57, .30-06 etc
BTW I do like the idea of the 8x60S, but isn't it pretty much a 8mm/06 in usage?[quote/]

It may be annoying to an Anglophile, but the 8x60S, the old "Versailles treaty cartridge", is fully the equal of the venerated British .318 Rimless NE, comparing ballistics.
Kynoch now lists these muzzle velocities for their .318 loads, taken with a 28" test barrel:
180 gr bullet at 2700 fps
250 gr bullet at 2400 fps
Instrumental velocities, 5 m from the muzzle, of my 8x60S loads, from the 22" barrel of my Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1925:
180 gr Barnes TSX bullet,52 gr VV N140 at 2720 fps
250 gr Woodleigh bullet, 53 gr VV N160 at 2330 fps
Granted, the .318 bullet is larger by a mere .006". But I doubt any animal or hunter will note a difference in practical use.

Quote:

A question. Why is a 8x60S so impressive when compared to say a .30-06?[quote/]


Re.: Why is an "iconic" .318 WR so impressive when compared to say a "mundane" .30-06? Shorter case, less capacity, almost no bullet selection except 2 Woodleighs and 1 Prvi Partizan.
You are right, there is very little practical difference between all the cartridges you mentioned. But it's a matter of rifle provenance. Before WW2, just as English speaking hunters did not understand metric numbers (reread Taylor and Keith!), continantal Eurpeans did not understand the alien imperial ones like inches, grains or fps. Though German gunmakers made some rifles in .30-06 and .318 WR for export, such cartridges were virtually unknown in Germany. If you are looking for a 1920s – 30s bolt action sporting rifle of that performance class, an American one will be in .30-06 most likely, a British one in .318 WR and a German one in 8x60. The differences serve one purpose only: They provide topics for endless discussions among hunters on one being a marvel and the others about useless.

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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: kuduae]
      #379322 - 13/09/23 04:11 AM

the 250 grains bullet is maybe the solution of the riddle. heavy bullets in small caliber giving excellent penetration what makes then the hype about it.

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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: lancaster]
      #379699 - 28/09/23 09:39 PM

Quite a while ago I made a .308WR for an American sportsman.
I have the best memories of this fabulous cartridge even if intrinsically, ballistically, it is no better than its German counterpart, the 8x60S.
Mauser delivered many Type A and Type B 8x60S rifles to Nairobi between the wars.
But the .318 is a class apart...at least in the mythology of the great era of African hunting.

Regards to all.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com













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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: DORLEAC]
      #379701 - 29/09/23 01:28 AM

I have an old "Pacific" reloading manual. This manual states that the 8x57 Mauser in a 98 acion will match the .30/06 in vel. with the same bullet weight due to it's greater expansion ratio making up for the lesser capacity case. Both ctgs. of course, loaded to the same pressure level.
The 8mm/06 of course, handily beat the '06 due to it's greater expansion ratio and same useable case capacity.
The 8x60 should be in the same ball park as the 8x57 Mauser.
I've read the .30/06, with it's normal rate of twist of 10", did not stabilize it's. 308" 250gr. bullet well even though it was capable of driving it at 2,450 fps.

--------------------
Daryl


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DORLEAC
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: DarylS]
      #379706 - 29/09/23 04:02 AM

8x60S

11.7 g / 181 gr bullet
835 m/s / 2,740 ft/s
4,079 J / 3,009 ft⋅lbf
=========================
.318 W-R

12 g / 180 gr bullet
820 m/s / 2,700 ft/s
3,960 J / 2,920 ft⋅lbf
-------------------------
16 g / 250 gr bullet
730 m/s / 2,400 ft/s
4,330 J / 3,194 ft⋅lbf

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com


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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: DORLEAC]
      #379707 - 29/09/23 04:24 AM

Quote:

8x60S

11.7 g / 181 gr bullet
835 m/s / 2,740 ft/s
4,079 J / 3,009 ft⋅lbf
=========================
.318 W-R

12 g / 180 gr bullet
820 m/s / 2,700 ft/s
3,960 J / 2,920 ft⋅lbf
-------------------------
16 g / 250 gr bullet
730 m/s / 2,400 ft/s
4,330 J / 3,194 ft⋅lbf

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com





The key item there is the 250 gr bullet. The .318 WR reputation was made with the 250 gr bullet.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: DORLEAC]
      #379708 - 29/09/23 04:28 AM

Quote:

Quite a while ago I made a .308WR for an American sportsman.
I have the best memories of this fabulous cartridge even if intrinsically, ballistically, it is no better than its German counterpart, the 8x60S.
Mauser delivered many Type A and Type B 8x60S rifles to Nairobi between the wars.
But the .318 is a class apart...at least in the mythology of the great era of African hunting.

Regards to all.

DORLEAC









Please send me one!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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9.3x57
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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: NitroX]
      #379712 - 29/09/23 06:51 AM

Quote:



Please send me one!




Get in the back of the queue, John!!



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Re: The Nearly Forgotten .318 Westley Richards [Re: 9.3x57]
      #379718 - 29/09/23 09:34 AM

Yeah, that's kinda sweet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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