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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 352
Loc: Colorado USA
Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers
      #330933 - 08/08/19 09:52 AM

I have a relatively rare "small bore" inbound - .242 Vickers Mauser by Cogswell and Harrison.

The rifle is missing its bolt so its first stop will be Steve Bertram (www.bertramandco.com) for a new bolt assembly and possibly cleanup of the metal work with a fresh rust bluing job.
While there I will have Steve do a chamber cast to confirm dimensions and exact groove diameter so I can get the correct reducing die from Corbin to squeeze a 100 grain .25 caliber down. Failing that a .243 could be "bumped up".......
Standard .242 Vickers bullet diameter was .249" but the neck and throat will tell the tale of exact bullet diameter needed.

Reloading dies were actually the easiest part, sourced a set of North Devon Firearms Service dies from "Jack First". It is said that common readily available .25-06 brass can be sized in one pass then trimmed before fire forming.

I have contacted Cogswell and Harrison for whatever info they have on this rifle, will be interested to see that turns up.

Additional details when this one arrives.

- Mike





--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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tinker
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #330934 - 08/08/19 10:44 AM

Very cool!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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93x64mm
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: tinker]
      #330940 - 08/08/19 05:56 PM

Shame its missing its bolt 3DM!
Looks a pretty niffy piece of kit there, I've never heard of this calibre before.
When you do get a chance can you please put in the loading data for this as it appears to be a 'rare' bird indeed!


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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 93x64mm]
      #330949 - 09/08/19 01:02 AM

A very rare chambering indeed.......apparently not too popular and faded into obscurity fairly early on.
Possibly due to the onset of WWII then after the war the hunting bans in India?

The only load data I have found is from "Cartridges of the World" as well as an article in the 1972 6th edition "Handloaders Digest" by Ken Waters.
Per Cartridges of the World the original .242 Vickers loading is said to have been 40.5 grains of "Nitro Cellulose" for 2800'/sec with a 100 grain bullet.

Cartridges of the World:
39 grains of 4350
34 Grains of 4895
both for about 2800'/sec

Ken Waters data:
42 grains of (IMR?) 4350
48 grains of H4831
no velocities mentioned; Waters' loads in his "Pet Loads" tended to be pretty hot.

The .242 Vickers cartridge is similar to and only slightly larger than the 6mm/.244 Remington so starting loads for the 6mm/244 Rem look like a decent guideline.

Right now Cogswell & Harrison are stumped because of the 4 digit serial number, they are still checking.........maybe a Vickers made and numbered rifle marked and retailed by Cogswell and Harrison? The barrel is marked "Cogswell & Harrison, Ltd" which indicates that the rifle is from some time after the 1932 liquidation and reorganization of Cogswell and Harrison.

- Mike

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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lancaster
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #330956 - 09/08/19 05:07 AM

hope its a standard length action so find another bolt will be easy
headspace is another question

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
      #330966 - 09/08/19 09:35 AM

Seller said a standard M98 bolt entered and closed fine.......? Just no attempt to go farther as to install to be shootable.

Headspace should not be insurmountable because if nothing else, due to no available loaded ammunition, this is a totally handload only proposition. If close enough then fireform brass to fit the chamber and headspace.

Here's the proof marks and serial number on the action ring; will have a look under the wood when I take delivery to see if there are any other markings such as Vickers-Armstrong, etc.









--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #330972 - 09/08/19 11:20 AM

A resized .30-06 using the NDFS .242 Vickers sizing die. Several gentle passes into the FL die using Imperial Sizing Die Wax, trim to 2.38"/60mm and eureka, a perfectly formed case.
I think to avoid possible thick necks and need for neck reaming I will use .25-06 for actual shooting brass.

That is a SHORT case neck!



--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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wkudu
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #330976 - 09/08/19 02:57 PM

hey i almost bought that too!

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Loc: Colorado USA
Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: wkudu]
      #331061 - 12/08/19 10:39 AM

Quote:

hey i almost bought that too!



Ah Ha....another man with both fine taste and vision (as well as a perchant for obscure British calibers)

My guy Steve Bertram (www.bertramandco.com) will soon be busy bringing this one back to shooting condition and it's rightful period correct heritage.
- Mike

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #331276 - 17/08/19 10:35 AM

This is a surprising discovery; this rifle's groove-groove measures 4 grooves and .255", a sample original Kynoch bullet is .247" diameter while the commonly stated bullet diameter was supposed to be .249".
Makes me wonder if the .242 Vickers became unpopular because of bullets essentially rattling down the bore and thus not being too accurate?

The up side of this is that a common .257" bullet is easily sized down .002" in a Corbin reduction die. Case necks may need inside reaming or neck turning........we shall see.
-Mike

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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Daryl_S
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #331278 - 17/08/19 12:47 PM

Make sure to check release room in the neck. (Of course you will, Mike. Just posted this for others)

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Daryl_S]
      #331282 - 17/08/19 01:13 PM

Quote:

Make sure to check release room in the neck. (Of course you will, Mike. Just posted this for others)



Something to be very mindful of when fooling with a long obsolete 95 year old cartridge that is going to amount to a modified, slightly undersize bullet, .25-06........

After forming and trimming of .30-06 & .25-06 cases with the .242 Vickers die and measuring I cannot help wondering if Manton and Kynoch did pretty much exactly that; necked down a .30-06 (.30 USG) case to nominally .242 specs? The case taper is a hair more and consequent shoulder diameter is a bit less, but base to shoulder is, as closely as I can measure, the same and shoulder angle is for all purposes the same as far as I can discern.
Yes, while the -06 case is very overbore for a ~.250" 100 grain bullet with the powders available in 1924; like all the cartridges meant for tropical use in "the Colonies" this large case at 2800'/sec meant comparatively lower pressures which were a desirable thing back then.

The adventure continues!
- Mike

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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lancaster
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #331283 - 17/08/19 01:52 PM

whatever it was then you are fortunate today to have so much basic brass to choose from

did the rifle now have a bolt again?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
      #331300 - 17/08/19 06:40 PM

I wonder if the .242 and .255 calibre differences is like the .303 and .312 bore differences in naming? And .318 and .330? Using lands width rather than bore calibre.

Or something like that.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ash
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: NitroX]
      #331302 - 17/08/19 09:23 PM

Please for the love of God don’t drill and tap this!

Looks beautiful!

--------------------
.


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3DogMike
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Ash]
      #331308 - 17/08/19 11:47 PM

Quote:

Please for the love of God don’t drill and tap this!

Looks beautiful!



Now THAT got a chuckle out of me!......no, no way, no drill & tap, no heavy repolish and hot blue, no Weatherby stock finish.......this one gets a "gentle" restoration to what it was.
Will get a new bolt with period straight (no scope) bolt handle treatment and pear shaped Mauser knob, clean up minor corrosion on a couple of spots on the barrel and mag floor plate, re rust blue. Not re-finish the stock, just needs a refresh on a couple of dry or moisture impacted spots.
Having Steve Bertram do it right so that it will look again as it was in use in the game fields circa 1930's.

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Loc: Colorado USA
Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #331309 - 17/08/19 11:58 PM

Lancaster and Nitro John
The rifle does not yet have a bolt, we just yesterday actually got delivery. Steve Bertram is chasing one down to use in the "restoration" to shooting condition.

The ".242" undoubtedly was the expected bore at top of rifling lands while the groove depth was supposedly ~.249". Who knows now, maybe Vickers quality control for bore dimensions was not that good?
As I have sourced an original unfired box of 10 Kynoch .242 Vickers I can say with fair certainty that all the Kynoch .242 Vickers ammo had bullets of .247" diameter.

- Mike





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lancaster
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #331314 - 18/08/19 03:32 AM

maybe oversized bore for dealing with high pressure?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Daryl_S
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
      #331318 - 18/08/19 05:08 AM

Poor consistency on bore diameters, maybe? .247" is not bad for a .249" groove diameter & likely shoot just fine.
My old 9.3x57 had .370" groove dia. and still shoots all bullets from 225gr. to 300gr. & from .365" to .367" bullets into 1 1/8" or better at 100meters - most weights are under an inch.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Loc: Colorado USA
Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: lancaster]
      #331320 - 18/08/19 05:11 AM

Quote:

maybe oversized bore for dealing with high pressure?



Who knows......the answer is lost to the mists of time.
Maybe "made on a Monday", or the guy running the rifling machine had one too many pots of beer at lunch?
- Mike

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Loc: Colorado USA
Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Daryl_S]
      #331321 - 18/08/19 05:16 AM

Quote:

Poor consistency on bore diameters, maybe? .247" is not bad for a .249" groove diameter & likely shoot just fine.
My old 9.3x57 had .370" groove dia. and still shoots all bullets from 225gr. to 300gr. & from .365" to .367" bullets into 1 1/8" or better at 100meters - most weights are under an inch.



Yep, undersized bullets can do just fine. My R.B. Rodda .404 Jeffery (circa 1929, probably by Schüler) has groove to groove diameter of .4285" and shoots just fine with standard .423" Woodleigh's..........

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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Daryl_S
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #331327 - 18/08/19 07:49 AM

There is a really good chance - heightened by a large capacity case to bore ratio, of increased throat & groove wear due gas blow-by from oversized cases.
While not much of a problem in low pressure or smaller cased rounds, it is still there to some extent - has to be.
My 1929 Swede though, is still shooting like a brand new rifle. Go figure.
The rifle's chamber will not allow larger than .367" bullets to be used in it's .370" bore. To use larger bullets, I would have to relieve the chamber neck with a "Chucking Reamer". Those are available from reamer makers in .001" diameter increments.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ash
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #331388 - 19/08/19 09:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Please for the love of God don’t drill and tap this!

Looks beautiful!



Now THAT got a chuckle out of me!......no, no way, no drill & tap, no heavy repolish and hot blue, no Weatherby stock finish.......this one gets a "gentle" restoration to what it was.
Will get a new bolt with period straight (no scope) bolt handle treatment and pear shaped Mauser knob, clean up minor corrosion on a couple of spots on the barrel and mag floor plate, re rust blue. Not re-finish the stock, just needs a refresh on a couple of dry or moisture impacted spots.
Having Steve Bertram do it right so that it will look again as it was in use in the game fields circa 1930's.





I’ve seen plenty of unmolested great conditon rifles drilled for a scope. I die a little inside each time.

--------------------
.


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Loc: Colorado USA
Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: Ash]
      #331393 - 19/08/19 12:46 PM

Quote:

I’ve seen plenty of unmolested great conditon rifles drilled for a scope. I die a little inside each time.




I am of the same mind....sacrilege.
- Mike

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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lancaster
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Re: Cogswell & Harrison .242 Vickers [Re: 3DogMike]
      #331395 - 19/08/19 02:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

maybe oversized bore for dealing with high pressure?



Who knows......the answer is lost to the mists of time.
Maybe "made on a Monday", or the guy running the rifling machine had one too many pots of beer at lunch?
- Mike





read a report about carbine 88 making by C.G.Haenel in Suhl in the 1880s. the official was complaining about the fact that production could be go much quicker if the worker's not allways bringing bear into the factory and this was not meaning single bottles.
the management was more or less helplessly against it he wrote.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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