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Ripp
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Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley
      #308984 - 15/12/17 01:14 AM

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/...m_campaign=1217

Why do I hate the .270 Winchester? Well perhaps for the same reasons I dislike fish dinners, smart cars and rap music—they just are not to my taste.

First off, the .270 is too popular, and I have always disliked running with the crowd. I usually find the misfits of the world much more interesting, but I can’t make that argument and still talk about how much I like the even more popular .30-06 Springfield without embracing hypocrisy.

The .270 Win. was introduced in 1925 along with a new Winchester bolt-action rifle—the Model 54. It ushered in a new era for American hunters, with a muzzle velocity in excess of 3000 fps, and a bullet big and heavy enough for big game. It’s a mystery exactly why Winchester chose the .277-inch bullet diameter. One theory is that the company wanted something different and distinctive from the bullets everyone else was using. The 30-caliber was well established with the .30-06 Springfield, .30-30 Win., .30-40 Krag and other cartridges. The 7mm cartridges were mostly European at the time and not popular with or well-known by American hunters. That left the .250-3000 Savage as the next step down in popular U.S. rifle cartridges. I don’t think it’s any accident that the .270 Win. split the difference almost exactly.



The .270 Win. was an orphan for 20 years. Then for the next 56 years, its only sibling was a stepbrother, the .270 Weatherby Magnum. The latter is a good cartridge, perhaps even a great cartridge, but it has never enjoyed the commercial success of the .270 Winchester.

It’s only recently that a few more 27-caliber cartridges have entered the market. The .270 WSM was introduced in 2001, but sales withered in the shadow of its bigger sibling, the .300 WSM. The 6.8 SPC was introduced commercially by Remington in 2004 and was designed to bring a bit more performance to the AR-15 rifle platform. It has a small but loyal following.

The truth is, the .270 Win. is the only 27-caliber cartridge that enjoys huge commercial success—and it didn’t gain popularity until decades after its release. My guess is that if the .270 Win. were introduced into today’s “make-or-break” market, it likely would never have survived. Its eventual success is attributed to the writings of Jack O’Connor, who is often quoted as saying he thought the .30-06 was a better cartridge.

It’s said that foolish people get their opinions from others, but intelligent people form opinions from multiple sources, including their experiences. My experiences with the .270 Win. have not been very impressive.

The first time I saw it in action was back in the ’60s when my grandfather shot a whitetail on the point of the shoulder. It politely fell down and didn’t move. It was, however, in a different pasture on the other side of a fence. When we arrived, the deer was gone. We looked long and hard, but never found it.

Years later, I was hunting moose in Newfoundland and I watched a man shoot a spike bull seven times with a .270 Win. The last shot hit the spine, and mercifully the bull tipped over and hit the ground. I gutted it for him, and was shocked to find most of the bullets only penetrated about halfway through the moose.

I could, and have, blamed both of those experiences on bullet failure. While I’ll never know for sure with my grandfather’s whitetail, the moose hunter spent thousands of dollars on his hunt, yet went cheap on his ammo. He had the lowest priced, bargain-basement ammo he could find.

Bad bullet, not a bad cartridge? Not so fast.

Several years later, I was hunting mule deer in Montana when I spotted a rutted out, scrawny buck with a huge rack. I shot him with a .270 Win. loaded with factory ammo using the latest, high-tech wonder bullet. The deer dropped, but as I walked closer it tried to get up, so I shot it again. Both were broadside shots, and neither of the 140-grain bullets managed to exit the deer’s body.



I have plenty of other experiences with the .270 Win. that were also less than impressive—whitetails in Alabama, Maine, Saskatchewan and probably a few other places I am mentally blocking. There was a hog in California and an elk in Colorado. They all died, so the unimaginative will argue that the cartridge worked. I am a student of terminal ballistics, and can tell you without hesitation that in each of these circumstances it did not—at least in the technical sense. The fact that the critter died was secondary to the failed performance of the cartridge.

I used to do a lot of black bear hunting in Canada and I think I have tracked more wounded bears that were hit with the .270 than all other cartridges combined. But don’t just take my word for it. Kenny Jarrett—inventor of the legendary Beanfield Rifle, the .300 Jarrett cartridge and a world-traveled hunter—told me that hunters lose more deer at his Cowden Plantation in South Carolina with the .270 Win. than with any other cartridge.

I know this will ruffle some feathers, as the .270 has a large, loyal following. I understand that it makes no sense that I’ve had better luck with a .243 Win. than with the .270 Win. I’m a huge fan of the .280 Remington, but when you compare it to the .270 Win., there is little ballistic difference. Explain it? I can’t—at least not from a technical standpoint.

Most will agree that our dislikes and biases are often anything but logical. If you love the .270, I understand—there is no need for you to send me hate mail. I am simply explaining why I do not. I’ll bet there is a cartridge out there you feel the same way about.

For the record, I am stubborn. If anything, I continually try to prove myself wrong. I own several rifles chambered for .270 Win. and keep hunting with them, mostly because I like a little contradiction in my life. I find it keeps things interesting. But it also ensures that my opinions are drawn from a solid foundation of experience. I maintain they are.

It seems no matter how hard I try—as with the search for the Holy Grail—my quest to find love for the .270 has gone and may always remain unfulfilled.

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Claydog
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #308994 - 15/12/17 07:50 AM

I have seen more animals wounded with a 375 H&H than anything else only because I have seen more shot at with it than anything else. Still think it is a good cartridge. Leave the 270 alone I say.

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coll416
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309004 - 15/12/17 11:36 AM

Sounds a bit like the nut behind the butt, please don't blame the tool! My experience with .270W is extensive with hundreds of clean kills on animals 50kg to 350kg. The cartridge is a surgeons weapon, however dodge the big bones on the close shots !

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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: coll416]
      #309009 - 15/12/17 01:36 PM

coll416 said
"Sounds a bit like the nut behind the butt, please don't blame the tool! My experience with .270W is extensive with hundreds of clean kills on animals 50kg to 350kg. The cartridge is a surgeons weapon, however dodge the big bones on the close shots ! "

I also have made more kills with 270 Winchesters than I can count. I have had 0 complaints, as long as a good bullet was used. I can say the same thing about good bullets on any game and from any bore diameter. A poor bullet that fragments and doesn't penetrate is not dependent on it's diameter when it's in the shell's neck. It's just a poor bullet. Be it .243" or .366" And yes, I have seen both in those diameters.

I also avoid the biggest bones when shooting close, but not because the bullet don't get through and exit. They do. What I don't like is the damage it does to the meat, so I avoid bone shots on close range deer and elk for that reason alone.

I shoot only those bullets from my 270s that the last 50 years of hunting have shown me are good. 130 Gr Partitions, 150 Gr Partitions, 160 Gr Partitions, Barnes X in any weight, The old 1960s made Remington Core-Lokts in 150 grain, the new Fox bullets made in Slovenia, any bonded bullet of 130 grains and heavier, and a handful of other standard "cup and core" bullets that just work fine.

Ascribing a damnation, or some virtue to a mathematical measurement is a sigh of a lack of logic or wisdom.
I have to give the author credit, in that he did acknowledge this point.

Edited by szihn (15/12/17 01:46 PM)


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sharps4590
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309022 - 15/12/17 11:52 PM

eh...sounds like fodder for those who don't know and don't know that they don't know.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Claydog]
      #309034 - 16/12/17 04:07 AM

Quote:

I have seen more animals wounded with a 375 H&H than anything else only because I have seen more shot at with it than anything else. Still think it is a good cartridge. Leave the 270 alone I say.




I knew posting this that it would raise more than a few hackles...

Creates good discussion IMHO...

Personally I have nothing against the 270 other than its not for me..no particular reason other than I feel there are better options...

In the case of the .375H&H, do you feel that is more a product that most can't shoot a 375 because of recoil/fear ?? Curious as to your experience...

Thank you..

Ripp

Edited by Ripp (16/12/17 04:08 AM)


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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309036 - 16/12/17 06:31 AM

Ripp said;
"In the case of the .375H&H, do you feel that is more a product that most can't shoot a 375 because of recoil/fear ?? Curious as to your experience..."

I would second this.

The 375H&H is the cartridge I have shot more than any other rifle cartridge except the 270 Winchester, and I have nothing but good to say for it. (I am not counting the 7.62 NATO fired from machine guns I used in the Marine Corps and as a DOD Employee.)
I have four 270 rifles now and I have had 3 others in the past which I have sold. I have one made on a Mauser that is on it's 3rd barrel.
I also have a Mauser in 375H&H that is well into it's 2nd barrel.
I do know a bit about the effects of both the 270s and the 375s on game. No one can know it all, but I do some, and what I do know I know from experience, not reading a book or article.

I would have to guess that anyone that is having troubles with a 375H&H in the game fields is either using the wrong bullet for the job, or is not shooting very well, or both. In EVERY instance I have shot anything with a 375 the results were as good as I could have hoped for, and often better. I have had mine since I was 22 years old. I am now 61. Soon I will have 40 years of use with a 375H&H and I have yet to see anything wrong with it. Reading the hunting stories of a lot of men who went before me, I don't find I am alone in this thinking. In fact, I know a few men still living today, who have used the 375 extensively, and all agree with me that if you use the right bullets for the job, the 375 is a rifle that is good for about 95% of all the hunting you could want to use it for.

What I do know from a lot of experience is that a gut shot, or even a liver shot, from a very powerful rifle is not as effective as a center chest hit from a lesser rifle assuming both bullets hold together enough to exit the animal.

Bullet failures can turn perfect placements into hair raising stories and/or long tracking stories. And that has NOTHING to do with the diameter of a bullet.

Edited by szihn (16/12/17 06:33 AM)


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Dogfish858
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309037 - 16/12/17 06:36 AM

I once saw a 3000 lb Charolais bull shot dead with one shot from a 22-250.

This fall I made a perfect 70 yard shot through both lungs of a whitetail buck using a .280 Rem. The buck ran 300 yards with two shattered shoulder blades and no lungs.

I saw a small black bear shot three times perfectly with a .308 run uphill away over Vancouver Island old growth slash before keeling.

I have wounded several deer with shotguns and bows, to the point where I quit using them.

I have seen blacktail deer nearly decapitated by a .222

I have shot black bear, deer, coyotes, etc dead without a twitch using shotguns and rifles. Clean kills are -- to my dogmatic view -- the product of accurate shooting combined with suitable bullets, usually aimed at a nerve. There are mathematics in play with distance shooting but killing to 'modern standards' usually seems to be a euphemism for 'making up for impatient and uneducated or otherwise innapropriate shots resulting in wounded animals'.

I killed my first deer at 14 with a .270 in one shot. I would shoot a moose with a .270 but only through the neck within 75 yards. But that's me. I try to shoot everything in the neck.

--------------------
But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?


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Claydog
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Dogfish858]
      #309043 - 16/12/17 09:49 AM

Ripp
Most people I see use the 375H&H and usually it works out just fine. I took out a couple for a cull hunt that shot 50 odd buffalo with a 223 and 308 with zero problems. 375 H&H is my choice for most folks as it is a balance between power and usability. But I have seen some flinches from hell and think that is the biggest issue. At the start of the hunt we go to the range and fire a few shots and it can get quite touchy. Especially when someone uses our rifles and wants to adjust the scope because they barely hit the target at 75 yards or the groups are all over the place. I always have two shots before I adjust the scope and it can cause some tension when I put them an inch high and dead centre. Add in shooting sticks, a bit of excitement and some nervousness and it can easily go wrong with any cartridge. Just has happened most with the 375 because that is whats used most. I have also seen shots from 416 and 458s that should have been fatal just cause some mild level of annoyance. Some times more comes into it than cartridge and projectile. I think the situation the animal is in when it is shot can have a huge effect especially on bigger animals.


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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Dogfish858]
      #309044 - 16/12/17 09:58 AM

Im with Ripp.......its not bad, or great, just another one of those slightly overbore, boring, un interesting, common as muck cartridges, whose reputation is over stated ( thanks to Jack).
Just go stright to the great range of true 7mm cartridges, and be done with it.
The European manufactures got it right over a century ago.....

--------------------
Walk softly and carry a big stick


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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Claydog]
      #309049 - 16/12/17 11:26 AM

Quote:

Ripp
Most people I see use the 375H&H and usually it works out just fine. I took out a couple for a cull hunt that shot 50 odd buffalo with a 223 and 308 with zero problems. 375 H&H is my choice for most folks as it is a balance between power and usability. But I have seen some flinches from hell and think that is the biggest issue. At the start of the hunt we go to the range and fire a few shots and it can get quite touchy. Especially when someone uses our rifles and wants to adjust the scope because they barely hit the target at 75 yards or the groups are all over the place. I always have two shots before I adjust the scope and it can cause some tension when I put them an inch high and dead centre. Add in shooting sticks, a bit of excitement and some nervousness and it can easily go wrong with any cartridge. Just has happened most with the 375 because that is whats used most. I have also seen shots from 416 and 458s that should have been fatal just cause some mild level of annoyance. Some times more comes into it than cartridge and projectile. I think the situation the animal is in when it is shot can have a huge effect especially on bigger animals.




Agree 100%..what you say is what I have seen in my travels as well as visits with PH's and guides around the world..sad but true fact, many are not as impervious to recoil as they think..as such are not as deadly as they think..OR, they just have the guide kill the game for them which truly disgusts me for several reasons...

My first cape buffalo I shot as chased in a cat and mouse pursuit for about 2 1/2 hours...finally he exposed himself and I got a trotting shot at about 80 yards...hit him hard with my .416..he stopped briefly..I shot again and he turn running away..I placed 2 more Texas heart shots..he dropped..about 20 yards away I shot him again..when about 3 yards away he tried to get back up..to which I shot him 2 more times..amazing..

The next buffalo I shot had no idea we were there..snuck in on him..made a good shot..boom down he went..no adrenaline to affect his mood..DEAD..

BTW Clatyon, had breakfast with Troy today,,told me to tell you Hello...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309050 - 16/12/17 11:39 AM

I've never liked the .270 - mainly because I never liked Jack O.
I liked Elmer much better and leaned his way, most of the time.
I know people who have great faith in the .270 - good, long time friends who have used that round for over 40 years.

I stopped reading Jack, when he said his average # of shots needed to kill a Canadian moose in BC, Northern Alberta or Northern Sask, was 3.8 shots per.

The man was a lousy shot and needed to learn how to shoot, not write about how wonderful his blow-up 130gr. ST's were on all game.

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?

Those people I know who use .270's and swear by them on all our game, use hand loaded 150gr. or some old horded 160gr. Imp. KKSP's for ALL big game. One shot, one moose, deer, elk or bear - quite simple with any decent rifle, including the .270.

One merely has to hit them in the 10 ring with a good bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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cordite
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309054 - 16/12/17 12:49 PM

Only owned one 270, and that very briefly. Never very interested. Like Daryl, I'm a Elmer Keith fan. Maybe that's why. Elmer did say the 270 would be just fine for coyotes!

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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309055 - 16/12/17 12:52 PM

Quote:

Im with Ripp.......its not bad, or great, just another one of those slightly overbore, boring, un interesting, common as muck cartridges, whose reputation is over stated ( thanks to Jack).
Just go stright to the great range of true 7mm cartridges, and be done with it.
The European manufactures got it right over a century ago.....




The 270 is actually the closest to a true 7mm on the market today, those others are not true 7mm's.
The 276 is 7mm.


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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309058 - 16/12/17 01:57 PM

Mmm, thanks Rule, then I gues I should have being referring to the " not true" 7x57, " not true" 7x64....sorry my mistake.

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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309062 - 16/12/17 07:23 PM

Quote:

Mmm, thanks Rule, then I gues I should have being referring to the " not true" 7x57, " not true" 7x64....sorry my mistake.




Yep, the 277 is 7.014mm, the 7X57 etc 7.24mm. Nitt picky I know.


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coll416
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309063 - 16/12/17 10:11 PM

Szihn I love your pragmatic views. I have made many errors & misses with shots on big game over 45 years. As my knowledge increased through these experiences I found less inclined to blame the tools & look at how I could improve. I bought a .270W with my first adult pay & wore it out over 10 years hunting & culling ferals. My second .270W a plain ol' push feed Model 70 is accurate with all fodder I have tried. I particularly liked the old 130gn Nosler Solid Base.... 60.0mm high at 100.0m it sure hustles way out!

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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309081 - 17/12/17 04:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Mmm, thanks Rule, then I gues I should have being referring to the " not true" 7x57, " not true" 7x64....sorry my mistake.




Yep, the 277 is 7.014mm, the 7X57 etc 7.24mm. Nitt picky I know.




As I see this,

The .270 has a .277" groove diameter. The .276 (7mm) has a .284" groove diameter but .276"/.277" bore, hence the Brits named it the .276, not .7mm or .284.


The same? - not a chance, but they are as close as a .358 is to a 9.3 (.366")

and a 9.3(.366") to a .375.

All 3 of these comparisons use the former's groove diameter as their bore diameter.

What changes the most and usually more than simply bullet diameter, is the bullet weight in the normal run of 'factory' ammo.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309090 - 17/12/17 08:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Mmm, thanks Rule, then I gues I should have being referring to the " not true" 7x57, " not true" 7x64....sorry my mistake.




Yep, the 277 is 7.014mm, the 7X57 etc 7.24mm. Nitt picky I know.




As I see this,

The .270 has a .277" groove diameter. The .276 (7mm) has a .284" groove diameter but .276"/.277" bore, hence the Brits named it the .276, not .7mm or .284.


The same? - not a chance, but they are as close as a .358 is to a 9.3 (.366")

and a 9.3(.366") to a .375.

All 3 of these comparisons use the former's groove diameter as their bore diameter.

What changes the most and usually more than simply bullet diameter, is the bullet weight in the normal run of 'factory' ammo.




Yep I was talking grove/bullet diameter. Please do not confuse "The 276" with an actual measurement of .276" "The 276" is a false 7mm ie 7.24mm, where as the measurement .276" is a true 7mm measurement.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309097 - 17/12/17 10:24 AM

No confusion, I was referring to the .276 Rigby, which was the 7x57 Mauser iirc - that is why I wrote as such .276 (7mm) bring the bore measurement and .284" the 'normal' groove diameter when having standard 004" rifling depth.
|some rounds, on the other hand tend to have deeper rifling - as in some 9.3's and some .375's. Standard seems with euro rifles, to be .004" to .006" depth.


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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309102 - 17/12/17 02:52 PM

Daryl the Rigby was the 275. The 276 was the 276 Pedersen from jaded memory. This was a 284 grove size I believe. I stand to be corrected on that.

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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309124 - 18/12/17 07:29 AM

Inches to MM is a multiple of .03937

So if we look at it mathematically instead of in the shooters vernacular,

5MM = .1968" (almost 20 cal)
5.56MM = .2188" (almost 22 cal)
6MM = .2362" (remember the old 6MM Lee was called a 236?)
6.5MM = .2559" (the 256 Rigby was their version of the 6.5X54 Mann /Scho)
7MM = .2755" (Close to the 270 which is .277)
6.8MM = .2677" (so where in the hell did the US Army come up with that name for the 6.8SPC?)
.284" is actually 7.213MM
.308" = 7.823 Not 7.62MM
8MM = .3148" (the old 8mm Mauser with the J bore was .318", which is close but not exact)
9mm =.3543" 7 ten-thousandths off.
9.3MM = .366" (Wow, one that is correct)
9.5MM = .374" (very close to the .375 bullets used in that bore size)
10MM = .3937" (again close but not .400 as we have been told)
11.5 = .4527" (wow, another one that's right)
13 MM = .5113" VERY close to the 50 BMG which is .512"

Edited by szihn (18/12/17 07:30 AM)


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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309130 - 18/12/17 08:52 AM

szihn, thanks for that.

6.8SPC I believe is based on the bore size as the grove size is .277"

308 is grove size and 7.62 is bore size I believe.

303 is bore size .311 is bullet size and nominal grove size. I do say nominal


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SharpsNitro
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309134 - 18/12/17 09:53 AM

I’ve owned a few 270s. Never kept one long, bullet selection is too limited for my tastes.

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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309135 - 18/12/17 10:39 AM

Quote:

Daryl the Rigby was the 275. The 276 was the 276 Pedersen from jaded memory. This was a 284 grove size I believe. I stand to be corrected on that.




Oh yeah now I remember - sucks to have a screwed up memory.

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Daryl


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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309142 - 18/12/17 01:42 PM

Quote:

Im with Ripp.......its not bad, or great, just another one of those slightly overbore, boring, un interesting, common as muck cartridges, whose reputation is over stated ( thanks to Jack).
Just go stright to the great range of true 7mm cartridges, and be done with it.
The European manufactures got it right over a century ago.....




Ironic you mention this, read an article this weekend about the aforementioned Jack O...the last custom rifle he had built was by Al Biesen --a Ruger M77 chambered in 280 Rem... sacrilege...

Also stated he killed just as much game using the 7x57 and 30-06...even hunted with and appreciated the 300 Weatherby..never knew that one.. Jack also owned .338's, .375's, .416's, a .458 Watt's wildcat, a .458 W Mag, and a double in .400 Jeffrey

It would appear even Jack learned the error of his ways, albeit a bit late in life..

Ripp

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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309166 - 19/12/17 10:25 AM

Ripp...dont you mean the " not true " (7) x57....now there is a cartridge!!

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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309167 - 19/12/17 10:57 AM

Seems to me, Elonner O'Conner used a 7x57 for those 28 head with 29 shots in Africa.
Jack packed a .375 H&H that trip, along with, seems to me, a .30/06.

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CarlsenHighway
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309187 - 19/12/17 09:25 PM

If this guy has a hard time killing animals with a .270, I don't think you can blame the cartridge.

The article is just a wind up to get attention. But he doesn't even have his facts straight for a start. The 7x57 was quite popular for a period interwar in the States, cheap surplus rifles were available, right when the .270 was coming of age. It was later due to the war that 7mm became foreign and German and lost ground.

And you cannot put the success of the .270 onto a single gunwriter. Jack O'Connor was popular in his time, and the .270 was indeed his favourite cartridge. He said as much, demonstrated it, (took it on several safaris to Africa, and also India, and many other countries) and it comes through in his writing. But he didn't get the .270 bug seriously until around 1938 and didn't become a full-time writer until 1945. The .270 was well regarded and written about by others also influential; editors like Monroe Goode and writers like Townsend Whelen.
The .270 became popular because it was successful. You can't talk a dead duck into life. (Thats a saying I just coined.)

Honestly if you have trouble shooting little whitetails with a .270 and finding them again...it means you can't shoot deer right. I killed red three deer with a black powder .44/40 this year, none of them went twenty feet. Deer are not hard to kill.

In NZ when the Army stopped releasing .303's and ammo to the deer cullers,the NZ Forest Service had to decide on an updated cartridge to become government issue for deer culling. These men had several thousand red deer on their tally's each. They decided on the .270 Winchester* and they had ammo manufactured with their own headstamp. NZFS .270.

(*They also issued .222 Remington - but that just goes to illustrate my point that deer are not hard to kill.)

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eagle27
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309188 - 19/12/17 09:39 PM

Quote:

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?




Actually it was 17 head of game Jack's wife Eleanor shot on safari in Mozambique using 19 shots. All bar the big bull Kudu were one shot kills, the Kudu was heart shot with the first and she hit it twice more to prevent it running too far, She used handloads in her 7x57, 52.0gr 4831 and 160 gr Sierras for a velocity of around 2700fps. She did pretty well for a supposed alcoholic.

Jack used a great variety of rifles for his African safaris from a 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, couple of 30.06s, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and a 450 Watts. He did quite a few safaris in various localities in Africa and shot a big variety of game. To those doubters, until you duplicate or better what he achieved you are hardly in a position to call into question his knowledge and abilities.


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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: eagle27]
      #309199 - 20/12/17 03:20 AM

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/...m_campaign=0817

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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: eagle27]
      #309208 - 20/12/17 06:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?




Actually it was 17 head of game Jack's wife Eleanor shot on safari in Mozambique using 19 shots. All bar the big bull Kudu were one shot kills, the Kudu was heart shot with the first and she hit it twice more to prevent it running too far, She used handloads in her 7x57, 52.0gr 4831 and 160 gr Sierras for a velocity of around 2700fps. She did pretty well for a supposed alcoholic.

Jack used a great variety of rifles for his African safaris from a 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, couple of 30.06s, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and a 450 Watts. He did quite a few safaris in various localities in Africa and shot a big variety of game. To those doubters, until you duplicate or better what he achieved you are hardly in a position to call into question his knowledge and abilities.




There ya go - guess I should have looked it up.

As to Jack's abilities - 3.8 shots average to kill a sinking moose says a lot about that subject.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309215 - 20/12/17 08:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?




Actually it was 17 head of game Jack's wife Eleanor shot on safari in Mozambique using 19 shots. All bar the big bull Kudu were one shot kills, the Kudu was heart shot with the first and she hit it twice more to prevent it running too far, She used handloads in her 7x57, 52.0gr 4831 and 160 gr Sierras for a velocity of around 2700fps. She did pretty well for a supposed alcoholic.

Jack used a great variety of rifles for his African safaris from a 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, couple of 30.06s, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and a 450 Watts. He did quite a few safaris in various localities in Africa and shot a big variety of game. To those doubters, until you duplicate or better what he achieved you are hardly in a position to call into question his knowledge and abilities.




There ya go - guess I should have looked it up.

As to Jack's abilities - 3.8 shots average to kill a sinking moose says a lot about that subject.




IMHO, honestly if the above comment is correct and it is taking you nearly 4 shots to kill animals on average you suck as a rifleman, period....

Ripp

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eagle27
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309222 - 20/12/17 03:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?




Actually it was 17 head of game Jack's wife Eleanor shot on safari in Mozambique using 19 shots. All bar the big bull Kudu were one shot kills, the Kudu was heart shot with the first and she hit it twice more to prevent it running too far, She used handloads in her 7x57, 52.0gr 4831 and 160 gr Sierras for a velocity of around 2700fps. She did pretty well for a supposed alcoholic.

Jack used a great variety of rifles for his African safaris from a 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, couple of 30.06s, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and a 450 Watts. He did quite a few safaris in various localities in Africa and shot a big variety of game. To those doubters, until you duplicate or better what he achieved you are hardly in a position to call into question his knowledge and abilities.




There ya go - guess I should have looked it up.

As to Jack's abilities - 3.8 shots average to kill a sinking moose says a lot about that subject.




IMHO, honestly if the above comment is correct and it is taking you nearly 4 shots to kill animals on average you suck as a rifleman, period....

Ripp




He did not seem to have any trouble shooting his animals in Africa so can't see why he would be any different when shooting in the States. He certainly was successful on long range shooting of sheep/goats in America. Perhaps he was more honest than others on how many shots some animals took to get down. Those of us who shoot under a variety of conditions soon learn that. Averaging shots on animals is not really a good indication unless one was confined to always shooting from a stand at fairly close range standing animals where you would expect a fairly good kill ratio. Try introducing mountain shooting, night shooting, running animals, bush shooting, etc, then it only takes a magazine full to anchor one animal to blow an average of one shot per animal, depending on number of animals in the average of course.

I don't personally care how many shots it takes for someone to get an animal down in terms of statistics. A bit like winning a golf match by just one stroke, you are the winner all others are losers. You get an animal on a hunt where it might take you a few shots you win, you come home empty handed you lose. We're not all perfect.


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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: eagle27]
      #309246 - 21/12/17 01:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?




Actually it was 17 head of game Jack's wife Eleanor shot on safari in Mozambique using 19 shots. All bar the big bull Kudu were one shot kills, the Kudu was heart shot with the first and she hit it twice more to prevent it running too far, She used handloads in her 7x57, 52.0gr 4831 and 160 gr Sierras for a velocity of around 2700fps. She did pretty well for a supposed alcoholic.

Jack used a great variety of rifles for his African safaris from a 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, couple of 30.06s, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and a 450 Watts. He did quite a few safaris in various localities in Africa and shot a big variety of game. To those doubters, until you duplicate or better what he achieved you are hardly in a position to call into question his knowledge and abilities.




There ya go - guess I should have looked it up.

As to Jack's abilities - 3.8 shots average to kill a sinking moose says a lot about that subject.




IMHO, honestly if the above comment is correct and it is taking you nearly 4 shots to kill animals on average you suck as a rifleman, period....

Ripp




He did not seem to have any trouble shooting his animals in Africa so can't see why he would be any different when shooting in the States. He certainly was successful on long range shooting of sheep/goats in America. Perhaps he was more honest than others on how many shots some animals took to get down. Those of us who shoot under a variety of conditions soon learn that. Averaging shots on animals is not really a good indication unless one was confined to always shooting from a stand at fairly close range standing animals where you would expect a fairly good kill ratio. Try introducing mountain shooting, night shooting, running animals, bush shooting, etc, then it only takes a magazine full to anchor one animal to blow an average of one shot per animal, depending on number of animals in the average of course.

I don't personally care how many shots it takes for someone to get an animal down in terms of statistics. A bit like winning a golf match by just one stroke, you are the winner all others are losers. You get an animal on a hunt where it might take you a few shots you win, you come home empty handed you lose. We're not all perfect.



----


I have hunted and shot in a wide variety of conditions for most of my life..and can honestly say it has never taken me an average of 4 shots to kill 99.9 % of the animals I have harvested...and that is hunting in the field conditions, shooting at running game, longer shots, close shots, etc..Before I had moved to Montana almost 30 years ago I had never shot at a deer that was standing ..just not how it was done were I grew up..we did drives and you took them as they cone running out of the trees, slough, whatever...

It does bother me if its taking someone that many shots to harvest an animal..that person either needs to get closer or practice a LOT more at the range...

Just because someone has the money or influence to hunt all over the world and can write flowery words about guns and hunting doesn't necessarily mean they can shoot..have seen that first hand dozens of times at various hunting camps around the world..fact is I have seen just the opposite unfortunately ..

As to the hunting here in the US, also read of all the desert sheep he harvested, only the last one was with a .270W... stated he was more a fan of the winchester model 70 than he was of the actual cartridge..again, not sure of all this but it is what I read..

I have never seen or heard that it took old Jack an average of 3.8 per animal..but if that is true I will stand by my original comment, he sucked as a shooter.. one can plant all the flowers you want in the cow pasture but in the end its still full of bull shit


Finally I don't claim to be perfect. Just because I am good looking, make a lot of money, and have a large penis, most people think life is easy for me..but I have a lot of the same struggles regular people do.. oh, and I am very modest...

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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309254 - 21/12/17 05:34 AM

When shooting in Canada, he used a .270 - likely with 130gr. ST bullets he was always pushing.

Sounds like in Africa, he used 'better' rifles.

No one here who uses a .270 on moose and there are a LOT of them, uses 130's (unless TSX) - they ALL use 150's or 160's.

It takes only one shot with a decent bullet or round ball to kill a moose.

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CarlsenHighway
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309257 - 21/12/17 06:30 AM

Have you guys got Jack O'Connor confused with the idiot that wrote the article in the first post?

Jack O'Connor used his .270 rifles all around the world, including as the sole plains game rifle on African safari's. He wrote of it, it doesn't need to be inferred.
He also used many other rifles, including doubles. He was a gunwriter and gun editor of the largest outdoor magazines in the world for years. He owned about 20, many of them custom rifles.

He was quite well known as an excellent shot on game, spoken of as such by people that hunted with him, and particularly as a superlative shot on running animals, something put down to so much practicing on jackrabbits in the desert with his big game rifles.

He shot many of his grand slam of sheep with his .270, it was the perfect mountain cartridge, that was the whole point of the thing, mating the .270 Win with a light rifle.

What on earth makes you guys think he 'sucked as a shooter' or only shot one sheep with a .270...?

I could dig out quotes from him and other people but...you guys are supposed to be gun guys, why don't you know about Jack O'Connor? Go and read some of his books, he wrote enough of them.

(As for moose, he wrote that he never killed a mature bull moose with one shot with a .270. But then he said it happened that he never saw a big moose killed with one shot with any cartridge.)

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Dogfish858
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #309261 - 21/12/17 07:18 AM

It's right here where I'll stir the bubbling pot and bring up the most successful caliber of all time: the 7.62x39. Shoot it once, shoot it 45 times, it's accounted for more of everything than everything else likely combined. It is the prime African cartridge, readily available in every market on a robust and hard-working cheap and ultrareliable platform, the AK-47. No weapon yet devised can compare with its simplicity or ease of cleaning. Best of all it's easily fired and maintained by the whole family, from eight years old to eighty, men and women alike -- and if some videos are to be believed, a chimpanzee. Whether you're hunting elephants or eland, if one shot doesn't do it, forty more will! And you'll be fed for a month.

Popularized by such trends as Violence In Hot Places, videogames, books, movies, and broader culture, this little cartridge and its charming platform is the emblem on two official flags and unnofficially others; it is the synonym for brute strength. It remains the apex of the trifecta of technology, and wherever there is killing the 7.62x39 rains (bullets) supreme. For there seem to be three constants in this world: Toyota Hilux, the Mercedes O617 diesel, and the AK-47.

Jack O'Conner or not.

Though bullet expansion can be an issue...

Merry Christmas! 🙏

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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Dogfish858]
      #309263 - 21/12/17 09:25 AM

I think Bryce M. Townsley nailed the article. If his objective was to stir up some lively debate. These days I could not care less what cartridge the rifle I am using is chambered in. Long as I know where it hits at 50yards and 100yards and I have the ability to put it there its all good as far as I am concerned. Not really concerned what Jack O'Connor did or didn't do either. I have messed up shots with lots of different rifles and can generally say that the cartridge was not to blame for any of them. I have been aware of any limitations there may be so it is all on me. It follows then that I take the credit for any perfect kills I have made and not put it down to a particular round. Put any rifle in my hands and send me out and I will be more than happy. Even an AK47or a 270.

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cordite
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Claydog]
      #309267 - 21/12/17 10:30 AM

Claydog, I can't argue with what you are saying. As a gun enthusiast I do care about what cartridge I shoot. Often times for nostalgic reasons or for real or perhaps imagined performance advantages. But the sad truth is there is very little difference in the field between many cartridges. While I don't want to, I'm sure I could spend the rest of my days using the 270 with no real disadvantage. It's fun to debate the merits of the 270 verses the 280 or the 3006, but sometimes we need a bit of a reality check. But I have to draw the line somewhere, no 7.62x39 for me!

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Claydog
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: cordite]
      #309268 - 21/12/17 10:42 AM

Yes it would be quite interesting to see what the average number of shots per kill is for that particular round worldwide.

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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Claydog]
      #309283 - 21/12/17 05:19 PM

" Prime African Cartridge"....Dog fish, your apparent infatuation for the AK47, is only exceeded by you sense of humour....that very funny!!. Thought you were serious there for a moment.

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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309293 - 22/12/17 04:54 AM

I doubt that "shots-per-kill" have very much to do with shell cases.
They have a LOT to do with;
(A) marksmanship and
(B) bullet choice.

I have been hunting since I was a young boy and I am not approaching geezerhood. I was blessed to live a life that allowed me to hunt a lot and except for a few years during my military service, (And only 3 of them, out of 15, U.S.M.C. and D.O.D.) I have been able to kill multiple head of game every year. Some of those years I was able to kill a very large number of animals.

I do not know how many big game animals I have shot in my life. In fact, I had lost count of that number in my early 20s.

And what I think is interesting is that the ones I have killed, that I was dissatisfied with the results, were shot with the cartridges that get more ink in the modern gun-rags then those that are old and well established. In other words, over-all, my best results have come from cartridges that are anywhere form 85 to 120 years old rather than the new improved ones. New shells that were supposed to be the improvements on the old-school cartridges were the ones I have had the bad results with.

This is NOT to say that the new is bad. I have not had that many failures with the new stuff ether, but far more than with the old ones.

Of the old ones, the 270 Winchester and the 300 H&H are the 2 I have used that are "fast" and yet still old. I learned early on that such shells need bullets that hold together if you want to avoid disappointments. Actually I think ALL do, but finding such bullet that work well starting out in the 2200 to 2700 FPS range is a lot easier then fining those that work well started at 3000-3400 FPS. The expanding solids of today (Barnes X and their copies) solved the problem to a large degree with the super fast magnums.

In my 1/2 century of hunting the kills I have made that were not what I wanted ( Note: these are kills. I only ever lost 2 head of game that I shot in my life, both mule deer)were mostly shot with modern magnums, vintage of the 1960s and later. I did recover all of them. But the ones that I saw a lot of room for improvements with were those that had bad bullet performance. These animals were recovered because of good marksmanship. There were a few that had both bullet failures and a long follow up, even when hit exactly where I wanted to hit them, 2 of which were followed over 1/4 mile, one of which was followed for a full mile.

I just read a report of a deer killed about 5 minutes ago. The hunter said "superb bullet performance" with a very bad bullet. He said the bullet totally came apart, and the jacket was found under the skin. This was with a Burger bullet. He had to follow up a nice deer hit with a 7-08.
I guess his logic is that the dear was dead, so the bullet was "Superb". I disagree with this way of judging bullet performance. From that line of logic cancer, CWD and old age are even better.

But back to the post:
I have been loading my own ammo since I was 12 years old. I and my dad and uncle hunted together for a few years before that, going back with me about 4 years. They started teaching me to hunt when I was in 2nd grade if memory serves me correctly.

By shooting 1960s made Winchester Silver-Tips and Remington Bronze Points, I learned that bullets that come apart are not the best for dependable kills. This was learned in 300 Savage, 30-06 and later my 270 Winchester.

MY dad sold the 300 Savage when I was 12 and the "family rifle" was then the 270. We killed everything with it for years. Not just game but ranch and farm animals too.

In all the years I have hunted, in thinking back, I can say I never lost one animal I shot with a 270. In all those animals I can also say I can remember exactly one I (thought I) had to shoot 2 times. ( Only 2 seasons ago I killed my elk with 2 shots and the 2nd one was probably not needed, but I didn't know it when I fired it.) All the others were 1 shot kills. Those I hit with bullets that came apart were still killed, but I did learn that a good bullet kills well and penetrates at the angle I want it to.

The longest tracking jobs I have ever done on game that I personally shot were shot with 7MM Mags and 300 mags, and one with a 338 mag. None of these make me think that anything was wrong with the shells, but that I used the wrong bullets. The 338 surprised me. It was a smallish deer killed when hunting elk with a 250 grain Hornady Round Nose. The deer went about 500 yards after being hit at the rear of the lungs and the exit was about 2" around, but the deer didn't seem to notice it for several hundred yards.

The so-so performance I got when I shot with the 300s and the 7mm Mags were all just because bullets came apart and didn't penetrate well, or penetrate straight. I can't say a 300 Win Mag, 308 Norma Mag or 7MM Rem Mag are not enough gun for deer or antelope, but the projectiles were not good enough for those fast magnum. Those same bullets seemed to do just fine in my 308 Winchester, 30-40 Krag and in my 7X57.

So I think a list of "shots fired to kills made with various cartridges" is not really going to teach us much, even if one could be made.

The bullets are the working part of the cartridge, not the brass powder bottles.

Edited by szihn (22/12/17 05:04 AM)


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rigbymauser
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309303 - 22/12/17 06:39 AM

I realized when I had an aversion against a some cartridge, it was really against those who used them.

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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: rigbymauser]
      #309312 - 22/12/17 10:39 AM

Be careful about that kind of emotions leading your logic.

That's EXACTLY how the Communist/Liberal/social-democrats react, and justify the stance they take on about everything. It's about the people they hate (or dislike) and that is why they do the things they do. They hate guns because armed people represent a threat to their control over their action and even their thought processes. So they hate guns.

If a rifle had a large magazine and is similar to what military forces use, and they know that a military force is more formidable then a disorganized mob, they hate large capacity magazines.

But a rational man doesn't fall for such tricks. If we wish to act and think rationally let's not fall into the same idiocy as those that oppose us just because we "feel" like it makes us more powerful, or more justified. If we do so on small and unimportant things we set a pattern to do so on larger and larger issues in life.

Don't fall for that kind of thing.
When i was a young man I was shot at many times by other young men using AK47s. For many years I disliked AKs but when I set aside my feelings about these machines and tried them for myself I found them to be superb weapons, reliable and rugged. When they are made with high quality barrel they can also be far more accurate then most men think.

Now I really like AKs.

I don't like communist ideals or methods at all. But I do not think of the AK47 as a "commie weapon" any more then I think of a small revolver as a "Saturday night Special" or an AR15 as an "Evil Black Rifle.

So if I can apply simple logic to AKs why would I not be able to do the same with a cartridge that was used by someone I disliked. Speaking personally, I could not care less what someone else likes and used even if I like the man, let alone dislike the man.

I own and use AKs, 8MM Mausers and 7X57 Mausers even thought all of these weapons and calibers were used by enemies of my nation, and some AKs were used against ME!. But I don't hate the gun because someone used it that I didn't like.

We need to grow out of that kind of illogic.


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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309313 - 22/12/17 11:43 AM

What a way cool post !

Still don't like the .270 how ever, cartridge companies load them with bad bullets more often I think same for 8mm Rem Mag & 8X68S, we can fix that, but I don't want to myself, I'd strangely prefer the 25/06 on smaller stuff & 338/06-9.3X62 on bigger stuff but I do love my 30/06's

Again great post !

--------------------
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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Sarg]
      #309315 - 22/12/17 12:44 PM

Thanks Sarg.



You know what...... I started shooting the 270 when I was 12 and re-loading ammo for it when I was 13.
I do remember thinking the Bronze Points and the Silver Tips both came apart way too much but the Power Points and the 150 grain Core-Lokts were excellent. In fact, the blow-ups in the 130 grain BP and Silver Tips were one of the things I tried to avoid when I started to load my own. I have not purchased a box of factory 270 ammo since I was 13. Almost 50 years of nothing but my own hand loads.

Your post made me think............... there are some factory 270s that I didn't think were so good. But it's been so long since I fired any of them I had forgotten about those horrid erratic wounds I saw back then. With that remembered, I may be able to see why some men don't like the 270.

When I see the 270 haters post things, I should ask them what ammo they are using. I am always a bit surprised when someone tells me of a failure, because for me the 270 has been very close to a death ray. As I said above, I have never lost an animal to a 270, and I have only one time had to fire 2 times. But most of my ammo had been loaded with good bullets. I did learn a bit about Sierra Boat Tails, and how they were not always the best at holding together, but I quit buying them in about 1974

Since the mid 70s I have been loading ammo with tough bullets and I have not had any problems at all since then.
I think this only validates my position about the bullet being far more important then the shell.

Since I have not fired a factory 270 in well over 40 years, I'd have to ask the readers here:

What brands and loads have worked for you and what loads were not so good?

For me the bullets I have a lot of faith in are the Nosler partitions in every weight.
The Barnes X bullets.
The Norma Bonded Core bullets.
The OLD Remington 150 grain Core Lokts were outstanding. (I have not bought any new ones, so I don't know about them, but I am told Remington makes then now with much thinner jackets)
Winchester 150 grain Power Points. Nothing fancy here, but I have not had any problems with them at all.
Bonded bullets by Hornady in 150 grain and from Nosler in 140 grain. Also the Bonded A Frame bullets by Swift.
The old Speer 170 grain round noses. These are now discontinued and I have only 1 box left.
The 150 grain Speer Grand Slams and the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws in 140 grain.
And every Woodleigh I have seen used.

I have had good but not great results with these:
Hornady 150 grain Inner Locks and also with Remington 130 grain Core Lokts.
The very best Sierras I have used were OK, but not great, and many were pretty fragile. All were very accurate however. The very best one was actually their old 150 gr. Round Nose, but it's discontinued now too.

Speer Hot-Cores also have a tendency to come apart in 130 grain. 150s shot well, but I think I only ever killed one deer with a 150 grain Hot Core, so I can't really say much good or bad about them. It left me a good exit but one kill doesn't give me enough info to really say much about that particular bullet.
In the early 70s I shot a lot of Norma Sliver colored steel jacketed bullet. They were silver colored 130 grain, had a small lead tip and would draw to a magnet. Hard on deer meat, but shot very well.
The130 grain Winchester Silver tips were bad and so were the 130 grain Remington Bronze Points

The very worse performance I have seen in my life (and not just with the 270s) are from Burger bullets. So bad in fact that I refuse to buy them for any reason other than varmints and paper shooting. I cringe when I am told one of my hunters has Burgers in his ammo no matter what caliber they are.

I have yet to see ANY Burger hit ANY animal and not come apart. I have now seen hits with Burgers in 257 cal, 264 cal 277 cal, 284 cal 308 cal and 338 cal. Some have given exit wounds (mayby 1/3 of them) but even those with exits are full of fragments. I have not even seen ONE that I felt was what I'd call good game bullet performance. 100% failure, 100% of the time so far.

Yes they have killed game.

A car with a smoking transmission and over-heating engine can go down the road, but that doesn't mean it's the best car on the road. Or even a good car. If it gets you to work, that's good, but I am not going to believe that because it got to work it's the best car on the road.

Just like I am not going to believe Burgers are any kind of big game bullet because some men have killed and not lost game hit with them.
I don't shoot them myself BECAUSE I have seen so many Burgers give bad performance on game. Not just in 270, but in everything ---- so far.
Burgers are nearly always accurate. But that the only good thing I can say for them.

Heck, they even advertise that they are designed to blow up, and somehow they have convinced a lot of hunters it's a good trait. IT'S NOT!!!

Will a bullet that shatters into small metal fragments in the lungs of an animal kill it?
Sure.

But so will a good bullet that balls up and hold it's weight, breaks big bones and still exits. And the good bullet will get through when the animal is quartering away from you and still exit.

If the position is held---- the deer/elk/sheep/antelope is dead, so the Bullet is good" --- then that same standard has to be accepted if the bullet balls up, holds half or more of its weight and exits. Right?
Or is that same position now somehow not accepted------------- from bullets that don't break up and fail to penetrate well, don't break bones and still hold together, and fail to exit?



Ok.........rant over.

Edited by szihn (22/12/17 01:18 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Sarg]
      #309320 - 22/12/17 06:01 PM

Quote:

What a way cool post !



Again great post !




Agreed.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309327 - 22/12/17 06:51 PM

A long time VERY good friend of mine and a medical Dr. now retired, has used the .270 off and on over 50 years that I know of. He's used nothing but the 150gr. Sierra BT, driven by too high pressure in his Belgium Browning at 3,020fps, and now in the new (15yrs old now) 26" bl. barrel I put on it, 3,040fps with 3gr. less IMR4831 powder than he used before. Now, he gets the velocity without hard bolt lift.

He did shot a Sako .375 for a number of years, back in the late 70's, early 80's but sold it and now prefers a .338 as his grizzly & sometimes moose rifle with the now discontinued 275gr. Speer. Bears, he finds drop more quickly with a 200gr. PP.

The Power Points by Winchester have seem to have been good bullets in a variety of calibres, from .243 through .375's.

He loves the way it dumps moose, but does not shoot them anywhere but in the ribs, or directly through the spine on close shots, just behind the head. He's an excellent shot and shows it every year.

I have never shared his love or strong accolades for the .270, but do acknowledge it will certainly do the job. Hell, I know I could do all of my future, moose, deer or bear hunting with nothing more than my .243 Vangard, with excellent bullets, of course - no Bergers, except maybe for wolves or 'big' crows on farm land.

I still don't like the .270, but, it's OK I guess.
lol

I have wanted a .280 for some time and preferably, a .280 AckIMP.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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xausa
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309334 - 22/12/17 09:39 PM

If I have never really warmed up to the .270 Winchester, it is probably because of my love affair with metric cartridges, starting with the 6.5-08 my gunsmith made for me out of a 6.5mm Arisaka back in 1958. From there is was a natural progression to the .256 Newton (actually a shortened 6.5-'06), which began with my first 1916 Newton rifle. Ironically, the first .270 I have actually hunted with is a 1922 Newton which had been rebarreled by Niedner Arms back in 1935, about the time factory production of the .256 Newton ceased. In the meantime, I have acquired another Newton rifle, this one evidently a special order factory model 1916, which has also been rebarreled in .270.

I suspect that if the .256 Newton had not perished, the .270 Winchester would never have achieved such popularity. The limiting factor for the Newton was the fact that it was only available in the somewhat exotic and well ahead of its time Newton rifle, which incorporated such features as low scope bolt handle and safety and a take down system which does not require the use of tools.



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rigbymauser
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309335 - 23/12/17 12:19 AM

Quote:

Be careful about that kind of emotions leading your logic.


We need to grow out of that kind of illogic.




As stated..eventually I did too.


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DoubleD
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: rigbymauser]
      #309339 - 23/12/17 02:07 AM

Couple of days ago I was in the library reading a Boddington article on 7x 57 vs 7-08.

That article is just the same as Towsley's. Both writers needed 2500 words to fill the contract this month. So they sat down with the ammunition catalogs and loading manual's, quoted a bunch of stuff from them added in a bunch of anecdotes, bingo contract fulfilled.

Then Towsley article gets quoted here, and we get more of the same from you guys.

This proves one thing. Towsley wrote a good article. He got us thinking, he got us talking. Good job Bryce.


My 2 cents on the 270, well years ago I had a .270, think it was a Remington 700, could have been a Winchester 70 or even a Ruger. Shot a box of factory ammo to get brass. Tried to develop a load. I could not get that gun to shot and every time I fired that gun it bit me. Sold the gun and have avoided .270's ever since.

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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: DoubleD]
      #309341 - 23/12/17 04:32 AM

Interesting, DD -I have read, over the years, that the .270 has never been known as an "accuracy cartridge", as many

.30's, 7mm's and 6.5's have, thus, bullet construction and
dies for it, lack the precision of the 'accuracy calibres'.

True or not, I do not know. I have seen some really good shooting .270's, as have many

guys here, but then some really mediocre ones as well. Most Euro rifles chambered for the .270 seem to do very well


indeed, such as Belgium Brownings, Sako, Styer, etc.All three makes you named, Win, Ruger, Rem. have at times had

difficulty with production rifle accuracy, regardless of
the calibre, however, in those times, their offerings of

.308 and .30/06 were still reasonably accurate, being
better balanced ctgs. quite likely.

I recall, many years ago reading an expose' on the .270,
written by Ed Mathieus (sry Ed, just looked for your name

spelling and could not find it in the mess).He used 5 or 6 different .270 rifles and chronographed them

all with the same ammunition. In his tests, he noted he thought he discovered why a lot of people swear by the .270

for long range deer-type game shooting, while others were disappointed with it. His velocity recordings with 130gr. bullets were all over

the map, while the 150gr. readings from the same rifles
were spot-on, almost exactly box numbers.

He noted for some reason, 130gr. speeds ran from
2,740fps to just over 3,100fps, while 150gr. averages were

all in the 2,900fps range. Like I said, this was some time ago - maybe 15 years back,

but these numbers kind of stuck with me.
He said he contacted Remington and pretty much asked them

"Why". Their ballistics expert noted the 130gr.
.270 load was the most difficult to get consistent results

with, but did not know why, and to use 150's if the 130's
were sub-standard in his rifle. Ed felt that if you had a

.270 running 130's at 2,740fps, that you would be totally
dissatisfied with it's long range performance on deer,

compared to the guy running over 3,100fps, who would be elated with it's performance, thus polar opposite results.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Dogfish858
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309344 - 23/12/17 06:59 AM

That ^ is an interesting anecdote. So what would cause inconsistency? Powder volume?

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But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?


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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309354 - 23/12/17 09:05 AM

Daryl I have heard similar but only experienced the 2700 figure with a barrel whose shot out throat made a Weatherby throat look short. My second 270, a Steyr Prohunter does not like 130 grain pills- mono metals excepted- grouped about 1 1/2 inch at 100mts. The 110grains, 140 grains and 150's group around the .75"

When I finally twigged to the 140grain pills and how close they travel to the 130 velocities I wondered why the fook I ever bothered with 130 grain pills.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309358 - 23/12/17 09:46 AM

That reminded me of something I almost forgot. Some years ago, in the 1990's, I worked up a load for another friend & his Remington 270. The best shooting load in it was with 140gr. BT's - Hornady I think, BTSP's IIRC. The load escapes me now, but was likely H4831 and the velocity was just over 3,000fps, with .75" accuracy at 100 meters of double bags.

He shot one bear with it, in the ribs at about 70 yards, the bear collapsing at the shot. He said the entrance hole allowed him to put his whole felt-pack boot into it - Sorrel's I think he wore - LOL. He said something exited as the exit hole was larger than the entrance hole, not much left in between, but it was a decent bear - 5 or 6 year old, maybe 250 or 300 pounds - before the shot - 6 1/2 footer.

He got some 150gr. Partitions and we played with those after that experience - and 1" groups sufficed for his moose loads. Most guys around here shoot moose from 25 yards, out to 100yds or so.
I did have a 200yard shot once and took it, with my 9.3x57. THAT bullet blew up, too.


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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309369 - 23/12/17 02:26 PM

Just out of curiosity Daryl, what 9.3 bullet was that?
Speer?
RWS?


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TexasJohn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309387 - 24/12/17 12:12 AM

"You never get a second chance to make a first impression". Many of us judge rifle calibers by the firearm that they were housed in or by the ammo that we used. It is often held forth by gun writers that the .318 Wesley Richards (.330 diameter bullets) developed a sterling reputation in Africa due mostly to the good luck of having the available bullets of good quality and built to match the velocity of the loads of the time. I have a friend who was a Deer Culler in New Zealand for a number of years and he used and observed the use of many different available rifles during that time. He killed more deer than most of us will ever hope to. His favorite caliber was the .270. His favorite rifle was a ZKK 600. I do not know what brand of ammo the Game Department furnished during his time, but likely it was also loaded with good bullets that performed well at .270 speeds. He gifted me with a ZKK in .270 that has the bridge-mounted pop-up peep sight for a backup sight. I have lever release rings on it and it has become one of my go-to rifles. It has killed everything I have shot with it like a lightning bolt. This is a limited number of animals but includes deer and hogs. I loaned to a friend in camp after he suffered a mechanical failure in his 30-06 auto. He is a life-long '06 fan - and talked smack at the .270. He shot only one animal with only one shot and was very impressed as it never took a step. Luck? Good bullets? I will tell you the ammo is stuffed with IMR4831 and old fashioned Sierra 130 grainers. Not my first .270 but the first one that has really impressed me.......and I had previously shot deer both with a pre-64 Model 70 and a Browning 1885 and was not a .270 fan after using them. I don't think anyone could take it out and shoot a dozen animals with it and tell me what caliber it is without looking. Is it the rifle or the caliber? Another favorite of mine for North American game is the 6.5 X 55 Swede - there is not much difference.

John

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."


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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309391 - 24/12/17 03:08 AM

Quote:

Just out of curiosity Daryl, what 9.3 bullet was that?
Speer?
RWS?




Speer's varmint 9.3, the 270gr. semi-round nose. Very accurate and very explosive, even at an impact speed of 1,800fps. Nothing but pieces. Did hit bone, but it was only a bull calf, not a big bull at normal range. The bone it hit WAS 2" in diameter.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309396 - 24/12/17 04:31 AM

Yeah that was my first guess Daryl. I have had horrible results with the Speer 270 grain in my 9.3X74R even on small deer. It's a big varmint bullet for sure. Super accurate, but the worst kind of bullet that can be made for big game.
Speer doesn't care either, and is pretty up-front is saying so if you write to them about it. I know, because I did.

And Texas John, you experience is very similar to mine. I started out with a 300 Savage and went to a 270 when I was very young. I started doing gunsmithing in my teens and I have done it for many many years now. About 1/2 a century. I can have any caliber I want for the same price, because the labor is "free" to me. And believe me, I have done it. I have made and owned a LOT of different calibers and I killed game with them all. I have to say I have seen more killed on game than I can count and when I compare good bullets to good bullets, I have not been able to see any real difference in how more powerful rifles have killed elk any faster than my 270, and the truth is many of them were not AS FAST as the 270
I can only speculate as to why. If I had seen it 3-4 times I might explain it away as "luck", but I have seen it probably 40 times on elk, at least 250 times on deer and maybe 45 times on pronghorns. Throw in a few moose 1 Bison, about 15 big horn sheep and 3 goats as well as a few bear and about 25 horses and cattle on the ranch. That's not luck.

What is it? I don't know for sure, but I can say without any reservations at all the 270 will kill well past it's supposed power level and it's been doing so for about 80 years.
Anytime theory and facts disagree it's easy to guess which one is wrong.
The 270 stands of facts.

Yes there are failures, as there are with any caliber loaded with bullets that break up. It has nothing to do with the brass powder bottle we call a "caliber". I have seen in in "buffalo rifles" and so have others. Daryl and I both have had such experience with 270grain .366 bullets fired from guns WAY more powerful than a 270. I have seen it probably 12-14 times from various 300 magnums and about 10 times from 7MM mags as well as a few dramatic failures from a 338 magnum. All were bullet failures, not "caliber failures".

But when we compare apples to apples, and good bullet to good bullet, the 270 needs no apologies at all.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: DoubleD]
      #309402 - 24/12/17 05:49 AM

Quote:

Couple of days ago I was in the library reading a Boddington article on 7x 57 vs 7-08.

That article is just the same as Towsley's. Both writers needed 2500 words to fill the contract this month. So they sat down with the ammunition catalogs and loading manual's, quoted a bunch of stuff from them added in a bunch of anecdotes, bingo contract fulfilled.

Then Towsley article gets quoted here, and we get more of the same from you guys.

This proves one thing. Towsley wrote a good article. He got us thinking, he got us talking. Good job Bryce.





"I HATE THE X POPULAR CARTRIDGE (OR RIFLE ETC)"

Always gets people excited or angry. Usually the articles aren't worth paper they are published on, or nowadays, the bandwidth ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: NitroX]
      #309403 - 24/12/17 05:59 AM

Funny about the "I hate the X cartridge" articles and also the sort of logic in them, and also by many shooters.

One of our members LOVES the .270 and has used it on almost everything. When he hunted lion he wanted to use his .270 but the PH would let him, so he had to use his .375 H&H. This was that super light Blaser I have mentioned shooting before, 6.25 lbs including ammo and scope. He wounded the lion. The black Zim PH refused to follow it up into thick bush, so my mate went in alone, fired a couple doaen shots at anything that moved and finally got the lion. The black PH was sitting in the car waiting ... "Orion" says it would have been a one shot kill with his .270.

Orion says the 8x68S is a great killer of everything.

But hates the .338 Win Mag and says it is hopeless ...

And so it goes. People who either don't like the shooter, or see it used, or use it with crap ammo, bad shooting, bad bullets etc etc

To me it is logic. If the calibre is adequate, the bullet weight is right, the section density appropriate, the bullet construction is suitable, the velocity right, the rifle accurate and the shooter can shoot and does make a good shot ... all things being equal, ANY suitable calibre/cartridge will do it.

The 10.75x68 had a reputation for bad performance. Because of the bullet construction in the cartridges at the time.

There is NO reason why a properly constructed 130 gr in a .270 would not kill similar to a 150 gr in a .30-06 or .308, or a 120 gr in a 6.5, etc etc etc

All things being equal, however in the field many things are not equal and that is why there are variations and differences in performance.

I never liked the .270 because I thought it was common. When I acquired my .30-06 EVERYONE had a .270 ...

Nowadays it is referred to as a pipsqueak rifle ...

Animals have since become armour plated ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: NitroX]
      #309415 - 24/12/17 06:49 AM

Well there is nothing wrong with liking things that are "not as common".

But one thing we need to admit:
If something is common, and it's being purchased in huge numbers buy folks that work hard to get their money, there is probably a reason it's so popular. In the USA the 30-06 and the 308 are more popular then the 270 today and the 308 was in 3rd place in the 60s and 70s, the 270 being #2

I have had very good success with many common guns and calibers. Ones that are or at one time were common still work as well as they ever did. With upgrades is guns and powder, some of the oldest common ones are better today they they were in their golden age.

45 Colt 1873
45-70 1873
303 Brit. 1888
8X57 1888
7X57 1892
6.5X55 1893
30-30 Win 1895
404 Jeffery 1906
9.3X62 1905
30-06 1906
375H&H 1912
270 Win. 1925
and there are many more.

New cartridges come and go. Some come and stay.

But no matter what new goodie comes out, it doesn't mean the old one, which was quite good, suddenly becomes bad.


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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309416 - 24/12/17 08:10 AM

I shot & killed 2 elk, 1 bullet each, with a Winchester Model 94. It's 16" barrel provided 1,584fps from the .45 Colt chambering, with a cast 300gr. .458" I sized down to .452" after lubing them. The mould was a DC RCBS mould of which I converted one chamber to produce a HP bullet. In my alloy, the flat point cast at 322gr. I used the HP on the Elk. Both bullets exited leaving 1" exit holes.

Both were shot at approximately 75/80 yards. The cow was running, the bull calf was not. Both died very quickly, no further shots were necessary.

That load produced identical ballistics to the 1884, .45/90 Winchester factory load, all from a .45 Colt Revolver ctg loaded to .44 Magnum pressure & is only usable in RP brass due to the feed ramp at the rear of the Winchester's chamber.

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CarlsenHighway
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309419 - 24/12/17 08:59 AM


I chronographed some Sellier and Bellot .270 not too long ago, 130 grain bullets clocked 2770fps out of a 23.5 inch barrel.
The same rifle shoots a 130 grain interlock to 3105fps with a max charge of H4831

So factory ammo is still about the same level as a 7x57.

I have shot three red deer with a black powder loaded .44-40 just recently, At 80 metres. I chronographed the pure lead bullet afterwards at 1125 fps.
None of those three went more than six yards.

This is what makes a mockery of his article. If he cant kill a little whitetail with a .270, well, I dont know what to say. Some people kill grizzly bears with them.

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416rigby
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #309425 - 24/12/17 12:15 PM

Drivel like this is one reason I've stopped reading the shooting magazines altogether. Sporting Classics is the only one I read any more.

--------------------
"Life's too short to hunt with an ugly gun"

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Dogfish858
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: 416rigby]
      #309426 - 24/12/17 12:32 PM

I use the .303 because the cartridge is pretty...

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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Dogfish858]
      #309427 - 24/12/17 01:01 PM

The 270 was " popularised " in the USA by marketing experts and gun writers....including his Royal Highness Jack Oconnor.
" Poularity" does not necessarliy translate in to greatness.
Many cartridges are great , but not necessarily sold in huge numbers.
The cartridge has a reputation well beyond what is deserves. As previously stated its not terrible, nor is it fantastic...its just the child of a marketing company who "invented " something different at a time when inovation was needed and the market was sucked in to buying it. At least the US market.

Its interesting to note that arguably the greatest sporting rifle ever built up the end of 1946 was not chambered in this " popular " cartridge. Yes, thats correct there is a huge hunting and shooting community outside of America.
ts called the rest of the world.

Mauser already had a line up of truly great cartridges including the truely great 7x57 for which they designed and built an intermediate length action which was and still is truely and deservedly famous.
Americas answer was a one size fits all Model 54, and later the pre 64 ( a crude copy of the real thing) in the " popular" ( at least in the US), 270Win. Americans flocked to it like the model T Ford.
This dedication to the 270 almost exclusively by the US is further emphasised by the Great English makers that even today consider chambering in such a " thing" to be sacrilege.
I dont think Hollands , or Purdey for example chambered many 270s...yes they undoubtley did, but Oh my goodness...really Sir!
Did they " retail" Model 54 Winchesters in 270.....nope, instead they chose Original Mausers and Mannlichers.

I dont believe that any other cartridge evokes so much discussion, even by people who have never owned , or hunted with one.
Its not fantastically efficient, you may even argue its overbore...its not one thing or another, but its very common.
Some cant even explain why they dont like it, and many , many people don't. Its bordering on tasteless.
Strange, I dont seem to see any negative comment on the venerable 7x57.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309443 - 24/12/17 08:37 PM

Quote:

Well there is nothing wrong with liking things that are "not as common".





Ignoring all the hate speech directed at the .270 Winchester, , I think it is NOW becoming less common, less fashionable, and becoming far more classic. So more attractive.

However I would never buy one, as I don't need one. And would prefer a 7x57 or .275 Rigby instead in that range of cartridges and rifles.

I would consider a .270/303 in a SMLE however! But would prefer a .25/303 if I wanted such a rifle or one came up.

I think I might write an article - "I hate the .375 H&H Magnum"! About how "useless" it is on big game, how curved is trajectory is. How it is neither a medium game cartridge nor a big game one. How cartridges since developed and before are much better.

If the .270 can get three pages of posts, the hate of the .375 should get nine!

Ha ha.

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...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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CarlsenHighway
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: NitroX]
      #309446 - 24/12/17 09:11 PM

I don't know about this weakening of the .270's 'greatness' that people have observed.
Its in the top five hunting cartridges in the world. Right now. It's as popular in Europe Aus and NZ as it is in America. It's been that way for decades.
I would argue that popularity over ninety years is definitely a measure of "greatness". (There's not too many people around calling the Sharps .44-77 a "great" cartridge.)

No one I know thinks of the .270 as an "American" cartridge - its just the .270. A standard caliber for everyman, and considered quite a powerful number. It's so accepted and normal that no one talks about it. (By contrast (In NZ) the .30/06 is considered an "American" cartridge, and is not very popular at all; people think it kicks too much)

If anything the .270 is in danger of falling out of fashion because its so boringly efficient that its "old hat" to the younger crowd who are bent on shooting the 6x47mm and the 6.5 Creedmore and suchlike at long distances.

But the idea that it is falling out of favour because of non-performance on game....

Can you imagine a modern rifle manufacturer bringing out a new model and NOT chambering it is .270 Winchester?

--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: NitroX]
      #309449 - 24/12/17 09:30 PM

Quote:

Funny about the "I hate the X cartridge" articles and also the sort of logic in them, and also by many shooters.

One of our members LOVES the .270 and has used it on almost everything. When he hunted lion he wanted to use his .270 but the PH would let him, so he had to use his .375 H&H. This was that super light Blaser I have mentioned shooting before, 6.25 lbs including ammo and scope. He wounded the lion. The black Zim PH refused to follow it up into thick bush, so my mate went in alone, fired a couple doaen shots at anything that moved and finally got the lion. The black PH was sitting in the car waiting ... "Orion" says it would have been a one shot kill with his .270.

Orion says the 8x68S is a great killer of everything.

But hates the .338 Win Mag and says it is hopeless ...

And so it goes. People who either don't like the shooter, or see it used, or use it with crap ammo, bad shooting, bad bullets etc etc

To me it is logic. If the calibre is adequate, the bullet weight is right, the section density appropriate, the bullet construction is suitable, the velocity right, the rifle accurate and the shooter can shoot and does make a good shot ... all things being equal, ANY suitable calibre/cartridge will do it.

The 10.75x68 had a reputation for bad performance. Because of the bullet construction in the cartridges at the time.





Never really explained my point. Orion thought the 8x68S was great, hated the .338 Win Mag. Another member on here, doesn't have a high opinion of the 8x68S, may well like the .338 etc.

Really there isn't much of a difference. One has higher SD and a bit lighter bullets. The other a wider calibre. Velocities are all in the acceptable range. What might be different is the shooter, his aim, the projectiles he is using etc. No logical reason both won't perform similar to each other, if the aim is on, and the bullet used constructed for the purpose.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Wayne59
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: NitroX]
      #309455 - 25/12/17 01:28 AM

I already have a 270 so I am going to build a 375 Dakota. Lets here the pros and cons of this cartridge.

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Dogfish858
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Wayne59]
      #309459 - 25/12/17 03:03 AM

It's likely that the sheer commonality of the cartridge has caused normal statistical variations across a broad spectra to be touted as general fact. With every use and user of the cartridge, the opportunity grows for a mishap -- but equally it grows for a success, thus the debate. In the end, the information is processed by our affections (much like my earlier fascetious post implied re: the 7.62x39 being the premier African cartridge and killer of elephants. In fact, by my understanding, it is.).

But in short, the widely variable reports on the cartridge are probably due to the fact that the cartridge is as good as O'Conner said it was, plus the millions of variables introduced with each use. As are .303 British, .22 lr, 30-06, etc.

Merry Christmas Gen'lmen!

Edited by Dogfish858 (25/12/17 03:22 AM)


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Rell
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Dogfish858]
      #309465 - 25/12/17 05:33 AM

I have found zero real difference in terminal performance at under 200m between the 270 Win, 280Rem, 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 RSAUM. I tend to use Nosler Partitions, Barnes X and Hornady Interbonds. All animals from White Tail to Moose die if I have put a hole in the heart lungs cavity. Surprise.

My experience with the 300 Weatherby and the Barnes X is pure devastation on game!

Oddly enough I have found the 338 Federal, 338-06 and 35 Whelen to be a step up in killing power. 215-250gr bullets.

Then the 375s seem to be stand alone with the exception of the 9.3x62and 9.3x74r. 286-300 gr bullets.

Same with the forties.

Not much ecperience with anything bigger except the 458 Win Mag using crap ammo, so not a fair comparison.

I agree with a past post, the rifle and scope set up is way more. If I had a fire and lost everything I would probably start and stop with Dorleac M98 in 9.3x62 and a Swarofski 1-8x24 8Xi.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rell]
      #309471 - 25/12/17 09:38 AM

Wow! 3 pages.

It occurred to me (after the fact) that all the answers would have been (and maybe should have been) covered in 4 words.



"OK,--------- Don't use it".


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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309484 - 25/12/17 08:30 PM

Quote:

Wow! 3 pages.

It occurred to me (after the fact) that all the answers would have been (and maybe should have been) covered in 4 words.



"OK,--------- Don't use it".




Now that is a perfect example of clear thinking.


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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309494 - 26/12/17 11:56 AM

Nitro

Write the 375 article, you will be lucky to get one negative response........." the 270 Winchester, surely no one can sucessfully argue that there is nothing more American than that!!!!!!!, why the very word Winchester with which it is joined at the hip is about American as the Model T Ford....................... a " classic "???, don't think so.
My last word. Ive been around hunting and rifles for over 45 years. I have many established many freinds , acquaintances , and meet many, many people of a like mind from all over this planet.
None of them I know uses a 270, let alone ownes one, and if they do, its more likely tucked away in a corner somewhere, hopefully never to see the light of day again.
Lets say you put two quality, identical rifles on UG for sale. One is a 270 Win, the other is a 7x64. In Australia, and NZ, ill wager that in 2017 the 7x64 will draw more enquiry than the 270....Ive proved it many times. Ask your local gunshot how many 270s he has sold lately......not many Ill bet.

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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309499 - 26/12/17 02:36 PM

"Ask your local gunshot how many 270s he has sold lately......not many Ill bet. "

Wow, you'd be wrong there. I do gunsmithing for a few shops in central Wyoming and I know what's selling here. The 270 is the 3rd or 4th most popular big game round sold in all the gun shops and also in the local Walmart.

In center rifle rifle ammo 223 is #1, but by far most of it's not used for hunting big game.

#2 is 308 followed very closely by 30-06 and the 270 Winchester is #4.

So for hunting of Deer and larger game, in Wyoming at least, the 270 is in the #3 place and in overall sales of center fire ammo it's #4.

Gun sales are slightly different.
223 is still the #1 seller. Mostly AR15s and a few other military style rifle.

#2 is the 30-06 and #3 is the 270.

#4 is the 308, but again many of these rifles are military style auto loaders (20 and 25 round magazines) which is when those rifles are being fired a lot more then the 30-06 and 270 bolt actions.

So ammo sales do not reflect gun sales exactly, but they are fairly close.

Edited by szihn (26/12/17 02:57 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309518 - 27/12/17 06:44 AM

Ammo sales/caliber info from various sites..

Personally, I feel the ammo shot/sold as of the last few years will change the overall sales numbers but perhaps not..as most participating in the PRS disciplines are mostly reloading vs purchasing factory ammo..and they are using 6 or 6.5 calibers more than all the others put together ..will do some more checking..see more recent info here regarding calibers used in competition for long range shooting..

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/02/16/long-range-calibers-cartridges-what-the-pros-use/


A bit outdated info..newest info is 2015 I believe..

http://www.chuckhawks.com/best_selling_rifle_cartridges.htm

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2015/12/20/america-s-most-wanted-ammunition/

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/what_is_the_best_caliber_for_north_american_big_game/

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/what_is_the_best_caliber_for_north_american_big_game/

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (27/12/17 06:50 AM)


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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309534 - 27/12/17 12:01 PM

szihn

Thank you, as I said earlier its " popularity" is essentially an American thing....and yep Walmart is where the 270 belongs, if it must belong anywhere

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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309535 - 27/12/17 12:27 PM

Ripp is 100% correct in his guess that most competitive shooters in the USA load their own rifle ammo. Small bore and some Military match shooters are the exceptions. In some Mil-Matches you have to shoot the ammo you are issued.

As far as this goes------------"Thank you, as I said earlier its " popularity" is essentially an American thing"

I'd agree! As I'd expect it to be.

The USA has the largest number of privately owned guns of any country in the world so it follows the most real rifle-men would be here too.

Edited by szihn (27/12/17 12:28 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309536 - 27/12/17 12:31 PM

Quote:

szihn

Thank you, as I said earlier its " popularity" is essentially an American thing....and yep Walmart is where the 270 belongs, if it must belong anywhere




I tend to disagree. 270 calibre belongs where ever rifle are sold. Cheap arse rifles of any calibre belong in Walmart.


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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309540 - 27/12/17 01:38 PM

Cocaine is popular too in the US......doesnt make a good thing!!

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Dogfish858
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309542 - 27/12/17 02:18 PM

Before we lean into nation-baiting re: rifles I think it's fair to state that we ought to drop the matter. Forums all over the web go dead due to spurious information and rude comments. In the end, it's an argument over a bit of recycled car battery, some brass, and a measuring tape.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309549 - 27/12/17 06:51 PM

Quote:

the 270 Winchester, there is nothing more American than that!!!!!!!




I beg to differ... .


--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Dogfish858]
      #309559 - 28/12/17 01:23 AM

Quote:

Before we lean into nation-baiting re: rifles I think it's fair to state that we ought to drop the matter. Forums all over the web go dead due to spurious information and rude comments. In the end, it's an argument over a bit of recycled car battery, some brass, and a measuring tape.




Agreed...this was posted to spur discussion and thoughts..no need for anyone to get their panties in a wad regarding a rifle caliber..geeze..life is way to short to worry/care that much about this, IMHO...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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cordite
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309563 - 28/12/17 02:47 AM

Rothhammer1, that is an incredible Thompson machine gun ad. Makes one realize how much the world has changed and how dangerous it is to judge actions of the past by today's standards.

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CarlsenHighway
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: cordite]
      #309579 - 28/12/17 12:14 PM

What a bizarre thread.

Some of this reminds me of the old Gary Larson cartoon of the "People who Hate Dances With Wolves Party". An enormous ballroom with three people standing in it holding drinks.

God knows I find the .308 utterly unappealing, but I am not going to pretend it won't kill a deer, or that its not one of the top five hunting cartridges worldwide...

(Ten dollars says I can sell a used .270 quicker than a 7x64...)

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If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
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Rothhammer1
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: cordite]
      #309590 - 28/12/17 06:57 PM

Quote:

Makes one realize how much the world has changed and how dangerous it is to judge actions of the past by today's standards.





I'm hip.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #309591 - 28/12/17 07:11 PM

Quote:

What a bizarre thread.

Some of this reminds me of the old Gary Larson cartoon






And an old favorite from B. Kliban:


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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309592 - 28/12/17 07:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Before we lean into nation-baiting re: rifles I think it's fair to state that we ought to drop the matter. Forums all over the web go dead due to spurious information and rude comments. In the end, it's an argument over a bit of recycled car battery, some brass, and a measuring tape.




Agreed...this was posted to spur discussion and thoughts..no need for anyone to get their panties in a wad regarding a rifle caliber..geeze..life is way to short to worry/care that much about this, IMHO...

Ripp




Agree with both of the above posts.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309608 - 29/12/17 05:10 AM



--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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LuckyPunk
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #311120 - 26/01/18 11:26 PM

I always thought one the things the 270 has going for it was that pretty much until the 270 Weatherby and the 6.8 SPC, all bullets were designed for it. In say a .308 bore, you could use a 30-30 bullet in a 30-378 cartridge with poor results if it struck heavy bone on a close shot. Pretty much every .277 bullet for many decades was intended for the velocity range of a 270 Winchester. About the only mistake a hunter could make is using a bullet intended for deer on larger game, a mistake that surly been made often. Poorly designed bullets are another matter, and I'm sure there have been some. When this has happened with a cartridge that is so "standardized" bad bullets may become more associated with the cartridge than with cartridges with multitudes of bullet options.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Dogfish858]
      #311170 - 27/01/18 07:22 PM

Quote:

Before we lean into nation-baiting re: rifles I think it's fair to state that we ought to drop the matter. Forums all over the web go dead due to spurious information and rude comments. In the end, it's an argument over a bit of recycled car battery, some brass, and a measuring tape.




NE forums go dead because of the .270?! Ha ha, what follow it into the grave? Ha ha. I don't think so.

This thread has been funny. A stupid concept, "Why I hate the .270" - a spurious "fake news" article, just designed to put some words on paper or monitor screens. And sell some advertising by the publisher.

Is it 'nation baiting' to say "the .270 is popular in the USA" but probably not so much elsewhere?

Of course not. The .277 and .308 are probably the same actually USA designed calibres (?). Noit copying a calibre elsewhere. Probably wrong! But I don't care.

The .270 used to be very popular, IMO, in Australia. Mentioned that before. Not so much today. We even used to have our own version, the .270/303 to make use of the many SMLE rifles available in Australia. Also I believe the actual .303 was banned at one time in civilian hands (?).

Like all the funny images and comments since the "nation baiting" comment. Well done guys.

Its just a rifle and a calibre, far better reasons to get upset over.

PS Anyone who can't kill a deer with a .270 providing reasonable bullets are used, can't shoot.

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John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: NitroX]
      #311196 - 28/01/18 04:41 AM

I have a .270/303 round in the box of odds and sodds and properly headstamped as well. I think there was likely a .244/303 or 6mm/303 as well. Hell of a roo ctg. I'd think, with a 10 round box magazine.

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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #311210 - 28/01/18 10:18 AM

Quote:

I have a .270/303 round in the box of odds and sodds and properly headstamped as well. I think there was likely a .244/303 or 6mm/303 as well. Hell of a roo ctg. I'd think, with a 10 round box magazine.




Daryl in Aust. River Brand? ammo and another cartridge company made 22/303, 243/303, 25/303, 270/303, not sure if the 35/303 was made commercially. The 25 and 270/303 were the more popular from my reading.

Others might know more about who made these calibres.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #311215 - 28/01/18 10:42 AM

Just spent 15 minutes going through that box of ctgs. and cases - lots of .303's I'd necked to other calibres, like .22 through to .410", but the .270/303 was not there.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #311216 - 28/01/18 10:45 AM

Didnt they call the .224 version the 22/303 " Falcon", or did I make that up?

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #311236 - 28/01/18 04:15 PM

Super Cartridge Company made in Maribyrnong Melbourne was the other brand that made 270/303.

Waidmannsheil.

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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: NitroX]
      #311249 - 28/01/18 11:12 PM

Quote:



NE forums go dead because of the .270?! Ha ha, what follow it into the grave? Ha ha. I don't think so.

This thread has been funny. A stupid concept, "Why I hate the .270" - a spurious "fake news" article, just designed to put some words on paper or monitor screens. And sell some advertising by the publisher.

Is it 'nation baiting' to say "the .270 is popular in the USA" but probably not so much elsewhere?





I had a .270 in my house once and my computer and television would no longer work until I removed it from my home..cell phone didn't work either...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Wayne59
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #311250 - 28/01/18 11:34 PM

So Rip your telling us your electronics felt inferior. I have a 270 and I just had to sit my TV down and have a hart to Hart.

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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #311302 - 29/01/18 07:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:



NE forums go dead because of the .270?! Ha ha, what follow it into the grave? Ha ha. I don't think so.

This thread has been funny. A stupid concept, "Why I hate the .270" - a spurious "fake news" article, just designed to put some words on paper or monitor screens. And sell some advertising by the publisher.

Is it 'nation baiting' to say "the .270 is popular in the USA" but probably not so much elsewhere?





I had a .270 in my house once and my computer and television would no longer work until I removed it from my home..cell phone didn't work either...

Ripp






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4seventy
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #312903 - 23/02/18 02:03 PM

A pretty strange article IMO.
The writer says that his hate for the 270 is based on poor kills and wounded game, experienced by himself and others over a long period of time.
Then he finishes up by saying that he still owns 'several' 270's and still hunts with them, despite the hating and the wounding!

Personally I've never found the need to hate the 270, or any other cartridge that I've used for that matter.
I do like some cartridges more than others though.
Never found the need to like or dislike a cartridge based on liking or disliking a particular gun writer either.

My first 270 was bought back in 1979, and since then I think I've owned and used a total of five different bolt rifles in that chambering.

I think anyone who is constantly having problems killing game with the 270 Win, must be having problems with bullet placement, bullet performance, or both.


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