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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309142 - 18/12/17 01:42 PM

Quote:

Im with Ripp.......its not bad, or great, just another one of those slightly overbore, boring, un interesting, common as muck cartridges, whose reputation is over stated ( thanks to Jack).
Just go stright to the great range of true 7mm cartridges, and be done with it.
The European manufactures got it right over a century ago.....




Ironic you mention this, read an article this weekend about the aforementioned Jack O...the last custom rifle he had built was by Al Biesen --a Ruger M77 chambered in 280 Rem... sacrilege...

Also stated he killed just as much game using the 7x57 and 30-06...even hunted with and appreciated the 300 Weatherby..never knew that one.. Jack also owned .338's, .375's, .416's, a .458 Watt's wildcat, a .458 W Mag, and a double in .400 Jeffrey

It would appear even Jack learned the error of his ways, albeit a bit late in life..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309166 - 19/12/17 10:25 AM

Ripp...dont you mean the " not true " (7) x57....now there is a cartridge!!

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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309167 - 19/12/17 10:57 AM

Seems to me, Elonner O'Conner used a 7x57 for those 28 head with 29 shots in Africa.
Jack packed a .375 H&H that trip, along with, seems to me, a .30/06.

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Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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CarlsenHighway
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309187 - 19/12/17 09:25 PM

If this guy has a hard time killing animals with a .270, I don't think you can blame the cartridge.

The article is just a wind up to get attention. But he doesn't even have his facts straight for a start. The 7x57 was quite popular for a period interwar in the States, cheap surplus rifles were available, right when the .270 was coming of age. It was later due to the war that 7mm became foreign and German and lost ground.

And you cannot put the success of the .270 onto a single gunwriter. Jack O'Connor was popular in his time, and the .270 was indeed his favourite cartridge. He said as much, demonstrated it, (took it on several safaris to Africa, and also India, and many other countries) and it comes through in his writing. But he didn't get the .270 bug seriously until around 1938 and didn't become a full-time writer until 1945. The .270 was well regarded and written about by others also influential; editors like Monroe Goode and writers like Townsend Whelen.
The .270 became popular because it was successful. You can't talk a dead duck into life. (Thats a saying I just coined.)

Honestly if you have trouble shooting little whitetails with a .270 and finding them again...it means you can't shoot deer right. I killed red three deer with a black powder .44/40 this year, none of them went twenty feet. Deer are not hard to kill.

In NZ when the Army stopped releasing .303's and ammo to the deer cullers,the NZ Forest Service had to decide on an updated cartridge to become government issue for deer culling. These men had several thousand red deer on their tally's each. They decided on the .270 Winchester* and they had ammo manufactured with their own headstamp. NZFS .270.

(*They also issued .222 Remington - but that just goes to illustrate my point that deer are not hard to kill.)

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eagle27
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309188 - 19/12/17 09:39 PM

Quote:

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?




Actually it was 17 head of game Jack's wife Eleanor shot on safari in Mozambique using 19 shots. All bar the big bull Kudu were one shot kills, the Kudu was heart shot with the first and she hit it twice more to prevent it running too far, She used handloads in her 7x57, 52.0gr 4831 and 160 gr Sierras for a velocity of around 2700fps. She did pretty well for a supposed alcoholic.

Jack used a great variety of rifles for his African safaris from a 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, couple of 30.06s, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and a 450 Watts. He did quite a few safaris in various localities in Africa and shot a big variety of game. To those doubters, until you duplicate or better what he achieved you are hardly in a position to call into question his knowledge and abilities.


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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: eagle27]
      #309199 - 20/12/17 03:20 AM

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/...m_campaign=0817

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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: eagle27]
      #309208 - 20/12/17 06:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?




Actually it was 17 head of game Jack's wife Eleanor shot on safari in Mozambique using 19 shots. All bar the big bull Kudu were one shot kills, the Kudu was heart shot with the first and she hit it twice more to prevent it running too far, She used handloads in her 7x57, 52.0gr 4831 and 160 gr Sierras for a velocity of around 2700fps. She did pretty well for a supposed alcoholic.

Jack used a great variety of rifles for his African safaris from a 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, couple of 30.06s, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and a 450 Watts. He did quite a few safaris in various localities in Africa and shot a big variety of game. To those doubters, until you duplicate or better what he achieved you are hardly in a position to call into question his knowledge and abilities.




There ya go - guess I should have looked it up.

As to Jack's abilities - 3.8 shots average to kill a sinking moose says a lot about that subject.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309215 - 20/12/17 08:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?




Actually it was 17 head of game Jack's wife Eleanor shot on safari in Mozambique using 19 shots. All bar the big bull Kudu were one shot kills, the Kudu was heart shot with the first and she hit it twice more to prevent it running too far, She used handloads in her 7x57, 52.0gr 4831 and 160 gr Sierras for a velocity of around 2700fps. She did pretty well for a supposed alcoholic.

Jack used a great variety of rifles for his African safaris from a 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, couple of 30.06s, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and a 450 Watts. He did quite a few safaris in various localities in Africa and shot a big variety of game. To those doubters, until you duplicate or better what he achieved you are hardly in a position to call into question his knowledge and abilities.




There ya go - guess I should have looked it up.

As to Jack's abilities - 3.8 shots average to kill a sinking moose says a lot about that subject.




IMHO, honestly if the above comment is correct and it is taking you nearly 4 shots to kill animals on average you suck as a rifleman, period....

Ripp

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eagle27
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309222 - 20/12/17 03:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?




Actually it was 17 head of game Jack's wife Eleanor shot on safari in Mozambique using 19 shots. All bar the big bull Kudu were one shot kills, the Kudu was heart shot with the first and she hit it twice more to prevent it running too far, She used handloads in her 7x57, 52.0gr 4831 and 160 gr Sierras for a velocity of around 2700fps. She did pretty well for a supposed alcoholic.

Jack used a great variety of rifles for his African safaris from a 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, couple of 30.06s, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and a 450 Watts. He did quite a few safaris in various localities in Africa and shot a big variety of game. To those doubters, until you duplicate or better what he achieved you are hardly in a position to call into question his knowledge and abilities.




There ya go - guess I should have looked it up.

As to Jack's abilities - 3.8 shots average to kill a sinking moose says a lot about that subject.




IMHO, honestly if the above comment is correct and it is taking you nearly 4 shots to kill animals on average you suck as a rifleman, period....

Ripp




He did not seem to have any trouble shooting his animals in Africa so can't see why he would be any different when shooting in the States. He certainly was successful on long range shooting of sheep/goats in America. Perhaps he was more honest than others on how many shots some animals took to get down. Those of us who shoot under a variety of conditions soon learn that. Averaging shots on animals is not really a good indication unless one was confined to always shooting from a stand at fairly close range standing animals where you would expect a fairly good kill ratio. Try introducing mountain shooting, night shooting, running animals, bush shooting, etc, then it only takes a magazine full to anchor one animal to blow an average of one shot per animal, depending on number of animals in the average of course.

I don't personally care how many shots it takes for someone to get an animal down in terms of statistics. A bit like winning a golf match by just one stroke, you are the winner all others are losers. You get an animal on a hunt where it might take you a few shots you win, you come home empty handed you lose. We're not all perfect.


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Ripp
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: eagle27]
      #309246 - 21/12/17 01:29 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

On one African strip, his wife Elennor O. shot something like 28 head of game with 29 shots using a 7x57 Mauser - 175's I think - - Why-The-Hell couldn't Jack do that?




Actually it was 17 head of game Jack's wife Eleanor shot on safari in Mozambique using 19 shots. All bar the big bull Kudu were one shot kills, the Kudu was heart shot with the first and she hit it twice more to prevent it running too far, She used handloads in her 7x57, 52.0gr 4831 and 160 gr Sierras for a velocity of around 2700fps. She did pretty well for a supposed alcoholic.

Jack used a great variety of rifles for his African safaris from a 257 Weatherby Magnum, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, couple of 30.06s, 300 Weatherby Mag, 338 Win Mag, 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and a 450 Watts. He did quite a few safaris in various localities in Africa and shot a big variety of game. To those doubters, until you duplicate or better what he achieved you are hardly in a position to call into question his knowledge and abilities.




There ya go - guess I should have looked it up.

As to Jack's abilities - 3.8 shots average to kill a sinking moose says a lot about that subject.




IMHO, honestly if the above comment is correct and it is taking you nearly 4 shots to kill animals on average you suck as a rifleman, period....

Ripp




He did not seem to have any trouble shooting his animals in Africa so can't see why he would be any different when shooting in the States. He certainly was successful on long range shooting of sheep/goats in America. Perhaps he was more honest than others on how many shots some animals took to get down. Those of us who shoot under a variety of conditions soon learn that. Averaging shots on animals is not really a good indication unless one was confined to always shooting from a stand at fairly close range standing animals where you would expect a fairly good kill ratio. Try introducing mountain shooting, night shooting, running animals, bush shooting, etc, then it only takes a magazine full to anchor one animal to blow an average of one shot per animal, depending on number of animals in the average of course.

I don't personally care how many shots it takes for someone to get an animal down in terms of statistics. A bit like winning a golf match by just one stroke, you are the winner all others are losers. You get an animal on a hunt where it might take you a few shots you win, you come home empty handed you lose. We're not all perfect.



----


I have hunted and shot in a wide variety of conditions for most of my life..and can honestly say it has never taken me an average of 4 shots to kill 99.9 % of the animals I have harvested...and that is hunting in the field conditions, shooting at running game, longer shots, close shots, etc..Before I had moved to Montana almost 30 years ago I had never shot at a deer that was standing ..just not how it was done were I grew up..we did drives and you took them as they cone running out of the trees, slough, whatever...

It does bother me if its taking someone that many shots to harvest an animal..that person either needs to get closer or practice a LOT more at the range...

Just because someone has the money or influence to hunt all over the world and can write flowery words about guns and hunting doesn't necessarily mean they can shoot..have seen that first hand dozens of times at various hunting camps around the world..fact is I have seen just the opposite unfortunately ..

As to the hunting here in the US, also read of all the desert sheep he harvested, only the last one was with a .270W... stated he was more a fan of the winchester model 70 than he was of the actual cartridge..again, not sure of all this but it is what I read..

I have never seen or heard that it took old Jack an average of 3.8 per animal..but if that is true I will stand by my original comment, he sucked as a shooter.. one can plant all the flowers you want in the cow pasture but in the end its still full of bull shit


Finally I don't claim to be perfect. Just because I am good looking, make a lot of money, and have a large penis, most people think life is easy for me..but I have a lot of the same struggles regular people do.. oh, and I am very modest...

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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Ripp]
      #309254 - 21/12/17 05:34 AM

When shooting in Canada, he used a .270 - likely with 130gr. ST bullets he was always pushing.

Sounds like in Africa, he used 'better' rifles.

No one here who uses a .270 on moose and there are a LOT of them, uses 130's (unless TSX) - they ALL use 150's or 160's.

It takes only one shot with a decent bullet or round ball to kill a moose.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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CarlsenHighway
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309257 - 21/12/17 06:30 AM

Have you guys got Jack O'Connor confused with the idiot that wrote the article in the first post?

Jack O'Connor used his .270 rifles all around the world, including as the sole plains game rifle on African safari's. He wrote of it, it doesn't need to be inferred.
He also used many other rifles, including doubles. He was a gunwriter and gun editor of the largest outdoor magazines in the world for years. He owned about 20, many of them custom rifles.

He was quite well known as an excellent shot on game, spoken of as such by people that hunted with him, and particularly as a superlative shot on running animals, something put down to so much practicing on jackrabbits in the desert with his big game rifles.

He shot many of his grand slam of sheep with his .270, it was the perfect mountain cartridge, that was the whole point of the thing, mating the .270 Win with a light rifle.

What on earth makes you guys think he 'sucked as a shooter' or only shot one sheep with a .270...?

I could dig out quotes from him and other people but...you guys are supposed to be gun guys, why don't you know about Jack O'Connor? Go and read some of his books, he wrote enough of them.

(As for moose, he wrote that he never killed a mature bull moose with one shot with a .270. But then he said it happened that he never saw a big moose killed with one shot with any cartridge.)

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Dogfish858
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #309261 - 21/12/17 07:18 AM

It's right here where I'll stir the bubbling pot and bring up the most successful caliber of all time: the 7.62x39. Shoot it once, shoot it 45 times, it's accounted for more of everything than everything else likely combined. It is the prime African cartridge, readily available in every market on a robust and hard-working cheap and ultrareliable platform, the AK-47. No weapon yet devised can compare with its simplicity or ease of cleaning. Best of all it's easily fired and maintained by the whole family, from eight years old to eighty, men and women alike -- and if some videos are to be believed, a chimpanzee. Whether you're hunting elephants or eland, if one shot doesn't do it, forty more will! And you'll be fed for a month.

Popularized by such trends as Violence In Hot Places, videogames, books, movies, and broader culture, this little cartridge and its charming platform is the emblem on two official flags and unnofficially others; it is the synonym for brute strength. It remains the apex of the trifecta of technology, and wherever there is killing the 7.62x39 rains (bullets) supreme. For there seem to be three constants in this world: Toyota Hilux, the Mercedes O617 diesel, and the AK-47.

Jack O'Conner or not.

Though bullet expansion can be an issue...

Merry Christmas! 🙏

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But what about you? he asked. Who do you say I am?


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Claydog
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Dogfish858]
      #309263 - 21/12/17 09:25 AM

I think Bryce M. Townsley nailed the article. If his objective was to stir up some lively debate. These days I could not care less what cartridge the rifle I am using is chambered in. Long as I know where it hits at 50yards and 100yards and I have the ability to put it there its all good as far as I am concerned. Not really concerned what Jack O'Connor did or didn't do either. I have messed up shots with lots of different rifles and can generally say that the cartridge was not to blame for any of them. I have been aware of any limitations there may be so it is all on me. It follows then that I take the credit for any perfect kills I have made and not put it down to a particular round. Put any rifle in my hands and send me out and I will be more than happy. Even an AK47or a 270.

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cordite
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Claydog]
      #309267 - 21/12/17 10:30 AM

Claydog, I can't argue with what you are saying. As a gun enthusiast I do care about what cartridge I shoot. Often times for nostalgic reasons or for real or perhaps imagined performance advantages. But the sad truth is there is very little difference in the field between many cartridges. While I don't want to, I'm sure I could spend the rest of my days using the 270 with no real disadvantage. It's fun to debate the merits of the 270 verses the 280 or the 3006, but sometimes we need a bit of a reality check. But I have to draw the line somewhere, no 7.62x39 for me!

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Claydog
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: cordite]
      #309268 - 21/12/17 10:42 AM

Yes it would be quite interesting to see what the average number of shots per kill is for that particular round worldwide.

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paradox_
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Claydog]
      #309283 - 21/12/17 05:19 PM

" Prime African Cartridge"....Dog fish, your apparent infatuation for the AK47, is only exceeded by you sense of humour....that very funny!!. Thought you were serious there for a moment.

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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: paradox_]
      #309293 - 22/12/17 04:54 AM

I doubt that "shots-per-kill" have very much to do with shell cases.
They have a LOT to do with;
(A) marksmanship and
(B) bullet choice.

I have been hunting since I was a young boy and I am not approaching geezerhood. I was blessed to live a life that allowed me to hunt a lot and except for a few years during my military service, (And only 3 of them, out of 15, U.S.M.C. and D.O.D.) I have been able to kill multiple head of game every year. Some of those years I was able to kill a very large number of animals.

I do not know how many big game animals I have shot in my life. In fact, I had lost count of that number in my early 20s.

And what I think is interesting is that the ones I have killed, that I was dissatisfied with the results, were shot with the cartridges that get more ink in the modern gun-rags then those that are old and well established. In other words, over-all, my best results have come from cartridges that are anywhere form 85 to 120 years old rather than the new improved ones. New shells that were supposed to be the improvements on the old-school cartridges were the ones I have had the bad results with.

This is NOT to say that the new is bad. I have not had that many failures with the new stuff ether, but far more than with the old ones.

Of the old ones, the 270 Winchester and the 300 H&H are the 2 I have used that are "fast" and yet still old. I learned early on that such shells need bullets that hold together if you want to avoid disappointments. Actually I think ALL do, but finding such bullet that work well starting out in the 2200 to 2700 FPS range is a lot easier then fining those that work well started at 3000-3400 FPS. The expanding solids of today (Barnes X and their copies) solved the problem to a large degree with the super fast magnums.

In my 1/2 century of hunting the kills I have made that were not what I wanted ( Note: these are kills. I only ever lost 2 head of game that I shot in my life, both mule deer)were mostly shot with modern magnums, vintage of the 1960s and later. I did recover all of them. But the ones that I saw a lot of room for improvements with were those that had bad bullet performance. These animals were recovered because of good marksmanship. There were a few that had both bullet failures and a long follow up, even when hit exactly where I wanted to hit them, 2 of which were followed over 1/4 mile, one of which was followed for a full mile.

I just read a report of a deer killed about 5 minutes ago. The hunter said "superb bullet performance" with a very bad bullet. He said the bullet totally came apart, and the jacket was found under the skin. This was with a Burger bullet. He had to follow up a nice deer hit with a 7-08.
I guess his logic is that the dear was dead, so the bullet was "Superb". I disagree with this way of judging bullet performance. From that line of logic cancer, CWD and old age are even better.

But back to the post:
I have been loading my own ammo since I was 12 years old. I and my dad and uncle hunted together for a few years before that, going back with me about 4 years. They started teaching me to hunt when I was in 2nd grade if memory serves me correctly.

By shooting 1960s made Winchester Silver-Tips and Remington Bronze Points, I learned that bullets that come apart are not the best for dependable kills. This was learned in 300 Savage, 30-06 and later my 270 Winchester.

MY dad sold the 300 Savage when I was 12 and the "family rifle" was then the 270. We killed everything with it for years. Not just game but ranch and farm animals too.

In all the years I have hunted, in thinking back, I can say I never lost one animal I shot with a 270. In all those animals I can also say I can remember exactly one I (thought I) had to shoot 2 times. ( Only 2 seasons ago I killed my elk with 2 shots and the 2nd one was probably not needed, but I didn't know it when I fired it.) All the others were 1 shot kills. Those I hit with bullets that came apart were still killed, but I did learn that a good bullet kills well and penetrates at the angle I want it to.

The longest tracking jobs I have ever done on game that I personally shot were shot with 7MM Mags and 300 mags, and one with a 338 mag. None of these make me think that anything was wrong with the shells, but that I used the wrong bullets. The 338 surprised me. It was a smallish deer killed when hunting elk with a 250 grain Hornady Round Nose. The deer went about 500 yards after being hit at the rear of the lungs and the exit was about 2" around, but the deer didn't seem to notice it for several hundred yards.

The so-so performance I got when I shot with the 300s and the 7mm Mags were all just because bullets came apart and didn't penetrate well, or penetrate straight. I can't say a 300 Win Mag, 308 Norma Mag or 7MM Rem Mag are not enough gun for deer or antelope, but the projectiles were not good enough for those fast magnum. Those same bullets seemed to do just fine in my 308 Winchester, 30-40 Krag and in my 7X57.

So I think a list of "shots fired to kills made with various cartridges" is not really going to teach us much, even if one could be made.

The bullets are the working part of the cartridge, not the brass powder bottles.

Edited by szihn (22/12/17 05:04 AM)


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rigbymauser
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309303 - 22/12/17 06:39 AM

I realized when I had an aversion against a some cartridge, it was really against those who used them.

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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: rigbymauser]
      #309312 - 22/12/17 10:39 AM

Be careful about that kind of emotions leading your logic.

That's EXACTLY how the Communist/Liberal/social-democrats react, and justify the stance they take on about everything. It's about the people they hate (or dislike) and that is why they do the things they do. They hate guns because armed people represent a threat to their control over their action and even their thought processes. So they hate guns.

If a rifle had a large magazine and is similar to what military forces use, and they know that a military force is more formidable then a disorganized mob, they hate large capacity magazines.

But a rational man doesn't fall for such tricks. If we wish to act and think rationally let's not fall into the same idiocy as those that oppose us just because we "feel" like it makes us more powerful, or more justified. If we do so on small and unimportant things we set a pattern to do so on larger and larger issues in life.

Don't fall for that kind of thing.
When i was a young man I was shot at many times by other young men using AK47s. For many years I disliked AKs but when I set aside my feelings about these machines and tried them for myself I found them to be superb weapons, reliable and rugged. When they are made with high quality barrel they can also be far more accurate then most men think.

Now I really like AKs.

I don't like communist ideals or methods at all. But I do not think of the AK47 as a "commie weapon" any more then I think of a small revolver as a "Saturday night Special" or an AR15 as an "Evil Black Rifle.

So if I can apply simple logic to AKs why would I not be able to do the same with a cartridge that was used by someone I disliked. Speaking personally, I could not care less what someone else likes and used even if I like the man, let alone dislike the man.

I own and use AKs, 8MM Mausers and 7X57 Mausers even thought all of these weapons and calibers were used by enemies of my nation, and some AKs were used against ME!. But I don't hate the gun because someone used it that I didn't like.

We need to grow out of that kind of illogic.


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Sarg
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: szihn]
      #309313 - 22/12/17 11:43 AM

What a way cool post !

Still don't like the .270 how ever, cartridge companies load them with bad bullets more often I think same for 8mm Rem Mag & 8X68S, we can fix that, but I don't want to myself, I'd strangely prefer the 25/06 on smaller stuff & 338/06-9.3X62 on bigger stuff but I do love my 30/06's

Again great post !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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szihn
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Sarg]
      #309315 - 22/12/17 12:44 PM

Thanks Sarg.



You know what...... I started shooting the 270 when I was 12 and re-loading ammo for it when I was 13.
I do remember thinking the Bronze Points and the Silver Tips both came apart way too much but the Power Points and the 150 grain Core-Lokts were excellent. In fact, the blow-ups in the 130 grain BP and Silver Tips were one of the things I tried to avoid when I started to load my own. I have not purchased a box of factory 270 ammo since I was 13. Almost 50 years of nothing but my own hand loads.

Your post made me think............... there are some factory 270s that I didn't think were so good. But it's been so long since I fired any of them I had forgotten about those horrid erratic wounds I saw back then. With that remembered, I may be able to see why some men don't like the 270.

When I see the 270 haters post things, I should ask them what ammo they are using. I am always a bit surprised when someone tells me of a failure, because for me the 270 has been very close to a death ray. As I said above, I have never lost an animal to a 270, and I have only one time had to fire 2 times. But most of my ammo had been loaded with good bullets. I did learn a bit about Sierra Boat Tails, and how they were not always the best at holding together, but I quit buying them in about 1974

Since the mid 70s I have been loading ammo with tough bullets and I have not had any problems at all since then.
I think this only validates my position about the bullet being far more important then the shell.

Since I have not fired a factory 270 in well over 40 years, I'd have to ask the readers here:

What brands and loads have worked for you and what loads were not so good?

For me the bullets I have a lot of faith in are the Nosler partitions in every weight.
The Barnes X bullets.
The Norma Bonded Core bullets.
The OLD Remington 150 grain Core Lokts were outstanding. (I have not bought any new ones, so I don't know about them, but I am told Remington makes then now with much thinner jackets)
Winchester 150 grain Power Points. Nothing fancy here, but I have not had any problems with them at all.
Bonded bullets by Hornady in 150 grain and from Nosler in 140 grain. Also the Bonded A Frame bullets by Swift.
The old Speer 170 grain round noses. These are now discontinued and I have only 1 box left.
The 150 grain Speer Grand Slams and the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws in 140 grain.
And every Woodleigh I have seen used.

I have had good but not great results with these:
Hornady 150 grain Inner Locks and also with Remington 130 grain Core Lokts.
The very best Sierras I have used were OK, but not great, and many were pretty fragile. All were very accurate however. The very best one was actually their old 150 gr. Round Nose, but it's discontinued now too.

Speer Hot-Cores also have a tendency to come apart in 130 grain. 150s shot well, but I think I only ever killed one deer with a 150 grain Hot Core, so I can't really say much good or bad about them. It left me a good exit but one kill doesn't give me enough info to really say much about that particular bullet.
In the early 70s I shot a lot of Norma Sliver colored steel jacketed bullet. They were silver colored 130 grain, had a small lead tip and would draw to a magnet. Hard on deer meat, but shot very well.
The130 grain Winchester Silver tips were bad and so were the 130 grain Remington Bronze Points

The very worse performance I have seen in my life (and not just with the 270s) are from Burger bullets. So bad in fact that I refuse to buy them for any reason other than varmints and paper shooting. I cringe when I am told one of my hunters has Burgers in his ammo no matter what caliber they are.

I have yet to see ANY Burger hit ANY animal and not come apart. I have now seen hits with Burgers in 257 cal, 264 cal 277 cal, 284 cal 308 cal and 338 cal. Some have given exit wounds (mayby 1/3 of them) but even those with exits are full of fragments. I have not even seen ONE that I felt was what I'd call good game bullet performance. 100% failure, 100% of the time so far.

Yes they have killed game.

A car with a smoking transmission and over-heating engine can go down the road, but that doesn't mean it's the best car on the road. Or even a good car. If it gets you to work, that's good, but I am not going to believe that because it got to work it's the best car on the road.

Just like I am not going to believe Burgers are any kind of big game bullet because some men have killed and not lost game hit with them.
I don't shoot them myself BECAUSE I have seen so many Burgers give bad performance on game. Not just in 270, but in everything ---- so far.
Burgers are nearly always accurate. But that the only good thing I can say for them.

Heck, they even advertise that they are designed to blow up, and somehow they have convinced a lot of hunters it's a good trait. IT'S NOT!!!

Will a bullet that shatters into small metal fragments in the lungs of an animal kill it?
Sure.

But so will a good bullet that balls up and hold it's weight, breaks big bones and still exits. And the good bullet will get through when the animal is quartering away from you and still exit.

If the position is held---- the deer/elk/sheep/antelope is dead, so the Bullet is good" --- then that same standard has to be accepted if the bullet balls up, holds half or more of its weight and exits. Right?
Or is that same position now somehow not accepted------------- from bullets that don't break up and fail to penetrate well, don't break bones and still hold together, and fail to exit?



Ok.........rant over.

Edited by szihn (22/12/17 01:18 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Sarg]
      #309320 - 22/12/17 06:01 PM

Quote:

What a way cool post !



Again great post !




Agreed.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Rule303]
      #309327 - 22/12/17 06:51 PM

A long time VERY good friend of mine and a medical Dr. now retired, has used the .270 off and on over 50 years that I know of. He's used nothing but the 150gr. Sierra BT, driven by too high pressure in his Belgium Browning at 3,020fps, and now in the new (15yrs old now) 26" bl. barrel I put on it, 3,040fps with 3gr. less IMR4831 powder than he used before. Now, he gets the velocity without hard bolt lift.

He did shot a Sako .375 for a number of years, back in the late 70's, early 80's but sold it and now prefers a .338 as his grizzly & sometimes moose rifle with the now discontinued 275gr. Speer. Bears, he finds drop more quickly with a 200gr. PP.

The Power Points by Winchester have seem to have been good bullets in a variety of calibres, from .243 through .375's.

He loves the way it dumps moose, but does not shoot them anywhere but in the ribs, or directly through the spine on close shots, just behind the head. He's an excellent shot and shows it every year.

I have never shared his love or strong accolades for the .270, but do acknowledge it will certainly do the job. Hell, I know I could do all of my future, moose, deer or bear hunting with nothing more than my .243 Vangard, with excellent bullets, of course - no Bergers, except maybe for wolves or 'big' crows on farm land.

I still don't like the .270, but, it's OK I guess.
lol

I have wanted a .280 for some time and preferably, a .280 AckIMP.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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xausa
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Re: Why-I-hate-the- 270 -- by Bryce M. Towsley [Re: Daryl_S]
      #309334 - 22/12/17 09:39 PM

If I have never really warmed up to the .270 Winchester, it is probably because of my love affair with metric cartridges, starting with the 6.5-08 my gunsmith made for me out of a 6.5mm Arisaka back in 1958. From there is was a natural progression to the .256 Newton (actually a shortened 6.5-'06), which began with my first 1916 Newton rifle. Ironically, the first .270 I have actually hunted with is a 1922 Newton which had been rebarreled by Niedner Arms back in 1935, about the time factory production of the .256 Newton ceased. In the meantime, I have acquired another Newton rifle, this one evidently a special order factory model 1916, which has also been rebarreled in .270.

I suspect that if the .256 Newton had not perished, the .270 Winchester would never have achieved such popularity. The limiting factor for the Newton was the fact that it was only available in the somewhat exotic and well ahead of its time Newton rifle, which incorporated such features as low scope bolt handle and safety and a take down system which does not require the use of tools.



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