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Ripp
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308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/?
      #307528 - 10/11/17 01:02 AM

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/arti...m_campaign=1117

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Claydog
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Ripp]
      #307549 - 10/11/17 08:52 AM

Found this an interesting article. Especially coming from a man who thinks 80yards is long range. Are there many in the US who use the Creedmore for hunting?

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Iowa_303s
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Claydog]
      #307551 - 10/11/17 09:00 AM

The Creedmoor seems to be catching on as a hunting round in the US.
Most if not all of the major rifle manufactures here are now chambering traditional!y styled sporting rifles for it and, at least in my area, hunting ammo is abundant on retailers shelves.

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DarylS
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #307555 - 10/11/17 10:38 AM

As for as a big game hunting ctg. is concerned, the 6.5 pales in the face of the .308 - on big game. I do not consider antelope or deer as big game. When it comes to elk, moose, large bears, I'd rather have the larger diameter bullet, thanks.

If the 6.5 was capable of shooting a .30 cal. 200gr. bullet at 2,550fps to 2,600fps, then it would be equivalent, not better, just equivalent. imho

I fully endorse the 6.5 for smaller game, like deer, antelope, black bears, etc - out to extended ranges (3 to 400yards even)., but not for big and/or dangerous game.

As this was a choice, I picked the larger one. I seriously think .358 is about minimum for the bigger 'stuff'.

Yeah- the .30's will work, even the .270, as long as you can shoot better than Jack - but I prefer larger bullets.

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Daryl


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szihn
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: DarylS]
      #307556 - 10/11/17 11:43 AM

"Better" is like "Prettier". We all understand the concept, but also understand it's based on use, and also opinion, more than anything else.

Better for what?

It depends on the judge, not on the object being judged.


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Huvius
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: szihn]
      #307559 - 10/11/17 12:25 PM

Funny, the same debate occurred over a century ago regarding the 303 British and the 256 Dutch (6.5X53R)!
Both are lovely if used appropriately and, frankly, I prefer both to the 308 and Creedmoor!

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Homer
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Huvius]
      #307561 - 10/11/17 01:04 PM

Quote:

Funny, the same debate occurred over a century ago regarding the 303 British and the 256 Dutch (6.5X53R)!
Both are lovely if used appropriately and, ..............




G'Day Fella's,

+1 Huvius.

Personally, they are both different animals (.303 - .256 Dutch and also, 6.5 Creedmore - .308 Win).

Avagreatweekendeh!
Homer

--------------------
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Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: DarylS]
      #307570 - 10/11/17 07:37 PM

Quote:

As for as a big game hunting ctg. is concerned, the 6.5 pales in the face of the .308 - on big game. I do not consider antelope or deer as big game. When it comes to elk, moose, large bears, I'd rather have the larger diameter bullet, thanks.

If the 6.5 was capable of shooting a .30 cal. 200gr. bullet at 2,550fps to 2,600fps, then it would be equivalent, not better, just equivalent. imho

I fully endorse the 6.5 for smaller game, like deer, antelope, black bears, etc - out to extended ranges (3 to 400yards even)., but not for big and/or dangerous game.

As this was a choice, I picked the larger one. I seriously think .358 is about minimum for the bigger 'stuff'.

Yeah- the .30's will work, even the .270, as long as you can shoot better than Jack - but I prefer larger bullets.




As was proved by NE member "Orion" a 6.5x54 M-S will work on water buffalo, on our 2005 hunt with Graham Williams of Australian Buffalo Hunters.

Even though a member tried to stop the hunt because he believed it should not be done.

Orion shot TWO water buffalo with three bullets. Though the second bullet for the first water buffalo bull was un-necessary.

Just takes a well aimed bullet to the heart.

Ha ha, Daryl, I agree with your comments however. There are always exceptions.

Big calibre for larger game always equals BETTER, in general terms.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Huvius]
      #307571 - 10/11/17 07:39 PM

Quote:

Funny, the same debate occurred over a century ago regarding the 303 British and the 256 Dutch (6.5X53R)!
Both are lovely if used appropriately and, frankly, I prefer both to the 308 and Creedmoor!




For the purpose of that debate, the subject however was probably a rifle cartridge for war. And for the shooting of soft skinned fragile man, the 6.5mm was more than adequate.

Animals are tougher than men.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: NitroX]
      #307572 - 10/11/17 07:44 PM

Phillip misses the much better European "long range" cartridge, the 6.5x55mm.

CZ for example manufactures a "sniper" rifle in that cartridge chambering and markets it to the world.

When I had a look at the write up and the videos I was surprised at what their "sniper" rifle was chambered for. But it makes a lot of sense.

BTW if shooting at long range, either from a bench or some other fixed position at a range, or shooting from a portable bech sniping at animals a long long way away, why is it important to have a short action?

What when carring a bench, spotting scope, mat to lie on, buddy to spot for you, range estimators, probably a lap top for calculating ballistics, ear phones, ammunition, why is the length of the action SO IMPORTANT ??? !!!! And the slightly lesser weight of the rifle in a target rifle ??? !!!



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: NitroX]
      #307573 - 10/11/17 07:47 PM

Quote:


What when carring a bench, spotting scope, mat to lie on, buddy to spot for you, range estimators, probably a lap top for calculating ballistics, ear phones, ammunition, why is the length of the action SO IMPORTANT ??? !!!! And the slightly lesser weight of the rifle in a target rifle ??? !!!






The little boy who pointed out the Emperor was wearing no clothes ...

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Ripp
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: NitroX]
      #307609 - 11/11/17 03:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:


What when carring a bench, spotting scope, mat to lie on, buddy to spot for you, range estimators, probably a lap top for calculating ballistics, ear phones, ammunition, why is the length of the action SO IMPORTANT ??? !!!! And the slightly lesser weight of the rifle in a target rifle ??? !!!






The little boy who pointed out the Emperor was wearing no clothes ...




Per what I have been told previously by my gun building buddies is also stated below--as it points out, think the idea is much less about actual weight and more concerned with accuracy..every little bit helps .. kinda like packing for a 2 week backpacking trip...cutting off the handles on the tooth brush.(for those of us who still have teeth , ounces make pounds.. every little advantage to win the match, etc...

This is a brief article I found..


The short action receiver (built to hold .308 Rem/NATO length and shorter cartridges) is typically about 1” shorter and weighs about a quarter pound less than the long action receiver. Its shorter bolt throw could theoretically allow slightly faster reloading. Since it has a much shorter ejection port, it is stiffer and will not torque or bend quite as much as a long action. It also has a lighter firing pin in most rifles so the lock time (the time from pulling the trigger until the firing pin hits the primer) can be (and on the Rem 700 IS) faster.

The last two differences make the short action popular with benchrest shooters because they need everything they can get for accuracy and they typically don’t need powerful cartridges to punch a hole in paper. The short lock time helps them get the shot off while they see the cross hairs exactly on the target. Nowadays, we have good action bedding systems so that neither the long or short actions are allowed to bend or torque so some long range benchrest shooters use long action cartridges very effectively. Custom aluminum firing pins are also now available to reduce the long action lock time to nearly the same as short actions.
The long action receiver is built for 30-06 and shorter cartridges. Therefore, you can shoot a .308 Rem cartridge and even shorter cartridges in them too if you like as long as your barrel is chambered for the cartridge. Both the .308 Rem (short case) and the 30-06 (long case) shoot 30 caliber (.308” diameter) bullets so you seldom see someone shooting .308 Rem cartridges in a long action. They typically just use a 30-06 cartridge version. Both the 30-06 and the .270 are "long" cartridges so they won’t fit in a short action receiver. People typically use long action receivers to enable them to use more powerful cartridges.

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Edited by Ripp (11/11/17 03:20 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Ripp]
      #307610 - 11/11/17 03:30 AM

I can understand action length in a AR, not so much the need in a bolt action.

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Ripp
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: NitroX]
      #307616 - 11/11/17 04:06 AM

Quote:

I can understand action length in a AR, not so much the need in a bolt action.




This just crossed my mind...remember when Remington come out with their cheaper rifle, the 788..however it had a faster lock time so everyone started buying those for target shooting..in fact Remington built those too good which took away the sales of the more expensive model 700..so away they 788's went...

Ripp

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DarylS
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Ripp]
      #307617 - 11/11/17 04:56 AM

The extra-long actions of the .338 Lap and the .5 bolt guns seem to shoot fairly well at the longer ranges.

Good points on action length, etc, John.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Grenadier
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: DarylS]
      #307621 - 11/11/17 05:11 AM

Quote:

308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/?


And that just begs the question, "Better for what?"

If the answer is rifle competition then the 6.5 Creedmoor has already demonstrated the edge and has already gained in use against the .308.

If the answer is military use in assault rifles the 6.5 Creedmoor would be head and shoulders above the 5.56. Likewise, the 7.62 would prove better than the 6.5 Creedmoor, especially considering rifles in either cartridge would weigh about the same. Remember, the standard military bullet is FMJ. Both cartridges would be about equal for short range sniper use against personnel. Long range you say? Well, at the distances any difference between .308 and 6.5 Creedmoor would matter neither would be the choice. Thus, the move to .300 WM and larger cartridges in long range sniper weapons. Finally, the 6.5 Creedmoor would be inferior to 7.62x51 as a medium machine gun cartridge for several reasons.

If the answer is for hunting then it all depends on what you are hunting. I like to think in comparative terms. I would consider a 6.5 Creedmoor to be "more" in a hunting round then .25-06 but "less" in a hunting round then .270 Winchester. If both .25-06 and .270 are great deer hunting cartridges then it stands to reason that 6.5 Creedmoor must also be a great deer hunting cartridge. Similarly, I put it to you that if one considers the .270 is marginal for elk, moose, and plains game then one must also consider the 6.5 Creedmoor just as marginal, or even more marginal, than the .270 on those animals. One response to what I just said might be that a well placed shot from a 6.5 could kill a Tyrannosaurus Rex but we're better off using a little more common sense when choosing cartridges for the game we pursue. As for the .308, it's long been considered acceptable, as opposed to marginal, for elk sized game, even if one of the magnums would be a better choice. I might choose to carry a .308 for a caribou hunt in big bear country but I definitely would NOT choose a 6.5 Creedmoor for that hunt.

I intend to have a rifle built in 6.5 Creedmoor to use as my primary antelope and deer hunting rifle. Those are animals the cartridge is best suited for.

The debate reminds me of the many .30-06 vs .270 debates.

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Ripp
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: DarylS]
      #308029 - 21/11/17 03:10 AM

Quote:

The extra-long actions of the .338 Lap and the .5 bolt guns seem to shoot fairly well at the longer ranges.

Good points on action length, etc, John.




Agreed, BUT, they are not shooting the groups the smaller calibers are at either..

The articles I read, 1/10 of an inch or less can make or break the win...

I have a Sako TRG 42 in 338 Lapua, very accurate...but again, not the same ...

Ripp

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DarylS
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Ripp]
      #308033 - 21/11/17 04:36 AM

You are right, Ripp - the 6.5's are more accurate at the closer ranges.

When we're talking 1,500yards and beyond, what many now seem to call long range, the little ones cannot compare due to the laws of physics, of course, neither can the .308.

I was quite astounded, my 30mm Vortec scope got me on the 1,000 meter buffalo's heart, in a mere 2 shots. the Rifle was a stock .300 MAG, Bronwing A3, shooting factory Winchester 180gr. Bonded, zeroed at 200meters.

IIRC, I needed only 27 moa elevation and the scope provides 30 moa correction.
I used this program: The BC's and etc, were all guess-at.
The second column gives moa correction for the ranges. Unfortunately the chart is in yards and I could get it to change it to meters, however the extrapolation is only an extra 9 yards per 100 meters, pretty simple. My screw-up needing 2 shots at 1000, was due to holding for 1000 yards, not 1,090 yards. The second shot was needed due to my flub, oh well. My first shot was just under the heart area, second with correction for the extra 90yards was spot-on.

That scope makes it easy if you have a range finder.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballis...=+Create+Chart+

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Daryl


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Ripp
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: DarylS]
      #308034 - 21/11/17 04:59 AM

Quote:

You are right, Ripp - the 6.5's are more accurate at the closer ranges.

When we're talking 1,500yards and beyond, what many now seem to call long range, the little ones cannot compare due to the laws of physics, of course, neither can the .308.

I was quite astounded, my 30mm Vortec scope got me on the 1,000 meter buffalo's heart, in a mere 2 shots. the Rifle was a stock .300 MAG, Bronwing A3, shooting factory Winchester 180gr. Bonded, zeroed at 200meters.

IIRC, I needed only 27 moa elevation and the scope provides 30 moa correction.
I used this program: The BC's and etc, were all guess-at.
The second column gives moa correction for the ranges. Unfortunately the chart is in yards and I could get it to change it to meters, however the extrapolation is only an extra 9 yards per 100 meters, pretty simple. My screw-up needing 2 shots at 1000, was due to holding for 1000 yards, not 1,090 yards. The second shot was needed due to my flub, oh well. My first shot was just under the heart area, second with correction for the extra 90yards was spot-on.

That scope makes it easy if you have a range finder.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballis...=+Create+Chart+




Agree..especially some of the newer ones..equipment is getting more and more user friendly..

The Sig Sauer 2400 is an incredible unit for the money...saw a guy do a 1003 yard shot last week using a 280AI with the new Hornady ELD--162 gr I believe ..smoked a bull elk....not my cup of tea on game..but was not my shot..it took three steps and tipped over...have several friends using them...nice and compact..imho, better unit than the Gunwerks model..who also just come out with a new model btw, to compete with the Sig..

https://www.sigsauer.com/products/electro-optics/rangefinders/kilo2400/

AS to the comment of another post made by another member which suggested the 6.5 is not a good choice for moose, there are approx. 300,000 Swedish hunters that might argue that point as in 6.5x55..

Ross Seyfried once wrote an article about hunting elk with a 6.5x54 Mannlicher using an 160 gr Oryx bullet which he had altered slightly to make it expand quicker. He wrote one shot, one elk..

Finally it is proven, the 6.5 is far from inferior to the 270..actually the opposite is true in every sense of the word..sad but true state of affairs, the 6.5, especially in longer distances (400 yards and beyond) is very much ballistically superior to the 270, period.

Ripp





Edited by Ripp (21/11/17 02:39 PM)


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tinker
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Ripp]
      #308076 - 22/11/17 03:43 AM

On our hills I run the .308 out at 1400 yards

The new bullets and powders are amazing
The new optics and rangefinders are amazing
Still there's up and down drafts, winds, atmosphere condition etc

The .308 has been good for me
I'd take a nice Creedmoor too

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HeymSR20
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: tinker]
      #308078 - 22/11/17 05:02 AM

From a hunting perspective take two identical rifles, have one in 308 and one in 65 Creedmoor and I very much doubt whether you nor the game you are shooting will now the difference. A correctly constructed bullet is probably more important than the calibre.

And if the game will only be irritated by being shot with a 6.5 or 308, then you take out the 375 H&H or 470. And if its long range and needs really destroying then thats the job for the 338 Lapua, 50BMG or heavy artillery


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Homer
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: HeymSR20]
      #308117 - 22/11/17 01:03 PM

Quote:

From a hunting perspective take two identical rifles, have one in 308 and one in 65 Creedmoor and I very much doubt whether you nor the game you are shooting will now the difference. A correctly constructed bullet is probably more important than the calibre.

And if the game will only be irritated by being shot with a 6.5 or 308, then you take out the 375 H&H or 470. And if its long range and needs really destroying then thats the job for the 338 Lapua, 50BMG or heavy artillery




G'Day Fella's,

Says it all really (along with bullet placement).

Doh!
Homer

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Rule303
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: HeymSR20]
      #308174 - 23/11/17 12:37 PM

Quote:

From a hunting perspective take two identical rifles, have one in 308 and one in 65 Creedmoor and I very much doubt whether you nor the game you are shooting will now the difference. A correctly constructed bullet is probably more important than the calibre.






I am not so sure about that. Reason being during the various wars a person hit with a 30/303 cal bullet was effected measurably more than one hit with a 6.5mm bullet. yes there are some factors to take into account. The bullets were FMJ not sporting. However some FMJ's were designed to bend and cause a larger wound channel others were not. That is, I do not know if the 6.5mm bullets were designed to bend on entering a body. I have noticed the different effect on pigs that a 303 FMJ and a 6.5X55 FMJ causes. Unfortunately two people I was hunting with in my younger days, who should have known better, decided to use FMJ's. None stopped the animal straight away unless hit in the shoulder or neck. Those that were heart lung shot with the 303 did not stagger/run as far as those hit with the 6.5.

Where am I going with this? Simple, the 308 sporting ammo should be putting a bigger hole in the game than a 6.5. So with a lung only shot the larger calibre should be more effective. Hit in the shoulder, heart, neck, spine I can't see there being any detectable difference given the game is not Elk or bigger. Not saying 6.5 is not an Elk calibre.

Meant to add,

I do agree that ballisticlly the 6.5 is better than the 270 and I think the 7mm but the larger bullets put a bigger hole in the critter. If I was to be buying a 270 today would I or would I go the 6.5. Still go the 270 here simply because of the ammo situation and I can legally hunt Sambar in Victoria with a 270, I can't with a 6.5. If I was into long range shooting a 6.5 is what I would have.

Edited by Rule303 (23/11/17 12:44 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Rule303]
      #308463 - 29/11/17 05:03 AM

Quote:

Quote:

From a hunting perspective take two identical rifles, have one in 308 and one in 65 Creedmoor and I very much doubt whether you nor the game you are shooting will now the difference. A correctly constructed bullet is probably more important than the calibre.







Meant to add,

I do agree that ballisticlly the 6.5 is better than the 270 and I think the 7mm but the larger bullets put a bigger hole in the critter. If I was to be buying a 270 today would I or would I go the 6.5. Still go the 270 here simply because of the ammo situation and I can legally hunt Sambar in Victoria with a 270, I can't with a 6.5. If I was into long range shooting a 6.5 is what I would have.




Really?? Caliber restriction there on larger game??


As to 6.5 or 308..here are a couple of new ones available in 2018 ..

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/11/21/kimber-announces-new-precision-rifles/


Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (29/11/17 05:08 AM)


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Rule303
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Re: 308-win-vs-65-creedmoor- Which-is-better/? [Re: Ripp]
      #308473 - 29/11/17 09:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

From a hunting perspective take two identical rifles, have one in 308 and one in 65 Creedmoor and I very much doubt whether you nor the game you are shooting will now the difference. A correctly constructed bullet is probably more important than the calibre.







Meant to add,

I do agree that ballisticlly the 6.5 is better than the 270 and I think the 7mm but the larger bullets put a bigger hole in the critter. If I was to be buying a 270 today would I or would I go the 6.5. Still go the 270 here simply because of the ammo situation and I can legally hunt Sambar in Victoria with a 270, I can't with a 6.5. If I was into long range shooting a 6.5 is what I would have.




Really?? Caliber restriction there on larger game??


As to 6.5 or 308..here are a couple of new ones available in 2018 ..

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/11/21/kimber-announces-new-precision-rifles/


Ripp




Yep. In Victoria the legal minimum for Sambar - Indian Elk - is 270 and I think they still have a minimum case length of 2". People have taken Sambar with 243 but possible more have been lost than found. The Sambar is noticeably bigger than a Red Deer and some drop easy but most soak up punishment. A heart shot Sambar -taking it the heart wasn't full of blood when hit - can travel several 100 mts before dropping. Normally less but still more than most. This restriction was advised by experienced Sambar Hunters back in the 60's or earlier I believe.


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