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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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ducmarc
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: szihn]
      #304742 - 04/09/17 02:29 AM

i think the 6.5 reconition started over here when about a half of million swedish mausers were imported. i have two m94 carbines and love them. before that no one knew of it once people started shooting them and reloading began sky was the limit. as far as the best allround long range cartage cris kyle swore by the 300 win mag out passed 1000 yards. and he wasen't out shooting for pleasure.he needed accuracy and knock down which is what we want.match shooters bullets barrels actions and the shooter are the whole package. when my dad raced hydros you win with a certian motor , prop, or hull the next month every one had your combo. not saying was the right one they just knew you won with it. like any other sport that use a mechanical devise .

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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Ripp
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: szihn]
      #304892 - 07/09/17 02:21 AM

Quote:

Will it prove to be a fad?? I don't think so..people have been shooting the 6.5 caliber in other parts for the world for a very long time..it has finally really taken hold here in the US in the past 10-15 years and now with the 6.5 CR being chambered by so many different rifle manufacturers, it will probably stick for the foreseeable future..IMHO
Ripp
______________________________________________________________________


I agree. But I will say I don't think it will be "ONLY a fad." Let me explain my statement:

All success stories of cartridges are fads ----at first! The ones that last are the ones that have merit enough to stand on that merit, and not just the writings of someone paid to sell products.

The 30-30 and the 30-06 were both fads ----- until the were standards. So were all the 300 magnums.
In fact, so was the 375H&H. That's how they all were in their first 10-15 years of use.

That is not to say that "standards" are always built on superior performance, or that shells with great performance are the ones that catch on and become "standards."

There are exceptions on both sides.

But I think it's safe to say that no cartridge will last long that has a low degree of merit.

A shell that preforms as well (or close to) a world standard, (in this case the 6.5 Swede) which fits a new set of gun standards (in this case a rifle with a Military length detachable mag and still can hold very long bullets) is how I see the 6.5 CM. In other words, barrel for barrel, pressure for pressure, the CM is very close to the 6.5X55, BUT it fits into a magazine that the 6.5X55 won't fit into. So that will open up a place in the market and that's what will make it last.

Like the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC. No new ballistics to either. Both give us ballistics we have had from other shells for 80-100 years and neither will give the top ballistics of those 80 year old shells.
But those other shells would not go into an AR15, or for that matter, a bolt gun that can weight less then 6 pounds with a scope and strap and fully loaded. It's not just the ballistics that make them desirable, but the synthesis of the shell and the gun it's in.

Today the merits of a shell are seldom truly some new set of ballistics. It's old news. What makes them new and excellent is the guns that they give those old ballistics from.

I have done a lot of 6.5X55s with 1-8 twist barrels. Shooting long, slick .264" bullets is very old news to me. Been doing that for 40 years. Some newer bullets of today did not exist then, but the guns were easily within reach of any who wanted such a gun.
Having one that can fit with a detachable 20 round mag however is something I have not done, and from an economic standpoint, I could not do.

The 264 Winchester with a 1-8 twist barrel is VERY old news! I did a few of them way back in the 70s. But speed by itself is not what is making the 6.5CM popular.

It's merit.
The bullets used in the CM do not have to be pushed as fast as the Mag pushes them.
The barrel life is a LOT better,
recoil is a LOT less,
weight of the gun can be a LOT less(If you'd like. Some guns in the 6.5CM weight as much or more than the magnums did, but now the customer gets to choose)

The the 6.5cm IS a fad. SO WHAT?
I think it will be a fad until it isn't. When it isn't it will become a standard. That's really the pattern of all great shells. All great ones develop that way.





For ONCE, I agree with you...

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Ripp]
      #304956 - 08/09/17 02:18 AM

Another interesting comparison...insight

http://www.accuracy-tech.com/6-5-creedmoor-vs-308-winchester/

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Daryl_S
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Ripp]
      #304967 - 08/09/17 05:53 AM

Interesting article.

I do like my daughter's .260 and of course, my old M96 6.5x55.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Daryl_S]
      #304976 - 08/09/17 09:16 AM

Quote:

Interesting article.

I do like my daughter's .260 and of course, my old M96 6.5x55.




Personally would really like a 6.5x55 in this rifle...

http://www.sako.fi/rifles/sako-85/85-bavarian-carbine

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Daryl_S
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Ripp]
      #304978 - 08/09/17 09:46 AM

That's pretty sweet!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Rell
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Daryl_S]
      #304981 - 08/09/17 10:03 AM

I have one in 260 Rem that I had Hill Country Accurize. Great rifle, just never taken it out of the safe since I sighted in three years ago.

It will probably go on the chopping block soon.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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szihn
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: szihn]
      #305306 - 14/09/17 12:55 AM

Just a quick re-cap.

I believe the 6.5X284 is 100% fad and really had no merit outside what the 6.5-06 has to offer in actions and in performance in both game field and target range. It is effectively about the same, but cost more to make and more to shoot.

The new 26 Nosler is also a fad, trying to go super fast with high BC bullets and it does this well. But bore life is super short, even shorter then the 64 Win Mag, and the Win mag is just as accurate. In fact I have seen 4 26 Noslers now and none of them are quite as accurate as the only 264 Win mag I now of around here, one I did a re-barrel on for a neighbor about 5 years ago, which shoots into 5/8" All the 26 Nos gun I have seen 9only 4 so far) shoot well, but not 5/8" well.

The 264 was a fad and is barely hanging on today. The nail in its coffin was the 7MM Rem mag and the 270 Winchester that it was trying to replace. The 7 mag did all it would do and do so better with a larger selection of bullets and the 270 was too well entrenched to give up ground. Number don't impress someone that has 50 years of excellent success. In the 50s when the 264 came out the 270 was very very VERY well received already and the market was not primarily target shooters, but hunters. If men of my Dad's age had 100% satisfaction since their dads were young, and you offer them something that's "better" they are going to ask better for what? And how do you get better than a 100% satisfaction? So the 264 got off to a late start and then Remington cut it's throat with the 7MM Mag, so the 264 was a good thing offered at the wrong time, and that fad started out but never got a lot of traction.

Now the 26 cal cartridges that really have merit are the old 6.5 Swede, the 260 Remington and the new 6.5 CM I wrote about above. All are close in performance.

The 6.5X55 is the standard to which others are compared. It is the one to match and beat. In International Military Matches all the way up through the 90s (I stopped my involvement in the late 90s) and maybe even today, it's the shell that is "the one to beat" and beating it at 600M 900M and 1000M is a hard trick to pull off. Even our Hot American Magnums don't beat it often. Americans often loose those matches because they send too much time and attention of trying to come up with a "better" shell or bullet and don't simply shoot and shoot and shoot, so they lack the degree of skill they need to win. American love to compare theories and parade around their tables and mathematical formulas, but none of that matters to the man laying on his belly shooting, especially if that shooter is using a rifle with it's 20th barrel in it, (19 of which were shot out in the last 10 years.) That's not a theory. I have seen that with my own eyes a number of times. We American always seem to think "new and improved" is new and improved and in most cases it's not. In many cases it's a step backwards.

But the Swede doesn't fit in modern NATO length magazines however. For a mid length or long bolt action, loaded one at a time from the top, it's still the king of 6.5s.

Enter the 260 Remington.
308 necked down. Does all the 6.5X55 will do if the magazine will allow seating the same bullets without deep seating and encroaching on powder room. But not all guns allow this. It is just as accurate and a very good hunting round. It's popular especially in new rifles that come set up as 308s to start with, so a 26 cal option is a drop in. As a custom gunsmith, I see the demand for it, but even to this day I get calls for 6.5 Swede about 2 to 1 over 260 Remington. The main demand I get for barreling to 260Rem is from those using 243s that want to step up a notch in power, and not buy a new gun. That's it's real market so far, in my shop at least. It's an excellent option too.

So enter the 6.5 CM.
Now this one is the correct combination for case shape for use in NATO length mags, will come close enough to the Swede in use of hunting bullets to not matter in the field, and is set up from the drawing board for the use of the very best target bullets, and wills till fit the NATO length mags.
This is the one I think is going to go through the fad stage and become the new standard. This one, in combination with the rifles it's made for, will be the new 6.5 of the future. I am betting the Swede will give up ground to it over time. I also expect it may start to take over the 260 Rem market too. Not because it's any better then the 260 for hunting, but as it gains popularity the availability of factory 260 ammo may decrease.
For the hand loader (most of my customers) the 260 will not be moved because NATO machine Gun brass is cheep and sometimes free, and it's very easy to make into 260 brass. The CM s based on the 30 TC, so you can't make it from 308.

So I am betting the three 6.5s we'll see on top of the heap in the next 20-30 years are going to be the 6.5 Swede, the 260 Rem and the 6.5CM. Today, that is the order of demand too.

In a few years I expect that order to be exactly reversed.


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Ripp
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: szihn]
      #305316 - 14/09/17 04:52 AM

Another perspective...albeit a bit outdated (2007 info) as 6.5/284 brass is readily available




The 6.5mm-284 Norma and 6.5mm Remington Magnum


By Chuck Hawks


The 6.5mm-284 Norma and 6.5mm Rem. Mag. are well regarded cartridges among savvy riflemen, particularly those specializing in long range shooting. These cartridges are comparable in performance, but they are based on very different cases.

The 6.5mm Remington Magnum was the second of Remington's original short magnum cartridges, introduced in the mid-1960's for use in their Model 600 bolt action carbine. This is a hunting cartridge designed for use in hunting rifles. The 6.5-284 Norma's parent case, the .284 Winchester, was introduced in 1963 by Winchester for use in their Model 88 lever action and Model 100 autoloading rifles. Both of these cartridges were intended to provide what was essentially .270 Winchester ballistics from short (.308 Win. length) actions.

The 6.5mm Remington Magnum was formed by necking down the .350 Rem. Magnum belted case. (Actually, any standard belted magnum case can be used as the basis for forming 6.5mm Rem. Mag. brass.) It uses a standard belted case with a .532" rim diameter and .513" head diameter. The case length is 2.170", the shoulder angle is 25 degrees and the cartridge overall length (COL) is 2.800". The 6.5mm Mag. was standardized by Remington to SAAMI specifications with a MAP of 53,000 cup.

While the original .284 Winchester cartridge never caught on, wildcatters immediately seized upon the .284 case and necked it up and down. Perhaps the most successful and enduring of the .284-based wildcats was the 6.5mm version, which became a very successful match cartridge. This cartridge achieved considerable popularity as a wildcat, where it was known as the "6.5mm-284 Winchester" or simply the "6.5mm-284." Having been a wildcat cartridge for most of its life, the precise chamber dimensions of 6.5mm-284 custom built rifles may vary, but the most common approach was simply to neck-down the .284 Winchester case without any other changes.

A few years ago Norma of Sweden picked-up on the increasing popularity of the 6.5mm-284, got the cartridge standardized by the European CIP, loaded it with Nosler bullets and introduced it in their ammunition line. Now that it has been standardized, the former wildcat's proper name is "6.5mm-284 Norma." The .284 Winchester was standardized by the SAAMI at the very high Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) of 54,000 cup and the 6.5mm-284 Norma is presumably loaded to similar pressure. Specialty ammo makers Stars & Stripes and Nosler now offer custom factory loaded ammunition in 6.5mm-284. Norma also sells virgin 6.5mm-284 brass for reloading, as does Lapua of Finland and perhaps others. All of the major manufacturers of reloading dies offer the caliber.

The .284 Winchester case upon which the 6.5mm-284 is based is a rebated rim design with a cartridge overall length of 2.800" and a very sharp 35 degree shoulder angle. It has the .473" rim diameter of a standard rimless case, but a head diameter of .500". Thus, its head is fatter than its rim (a rebated rim). This case style is satisfactory for a single shot bolt action target rifle (the primary application for the 6.5mm-284), but has serious drawbacks for repeating hunting rifles, as both the rebated rim and sharp shoulder degrade feeding reliability.

The 6.5mm-284 Norma case length is 2.170" and the shoulder angle remains 35 degrees. A cartridge overall length of 2.8" is required for use in the magazines of short action repeating rifles. Single shot 6.5mm-284 target rifles are often reamed with throats that allow seating 140+ grain bullets farther out for a longer COL. For example, the Sierra reloading manual specifies a COL of 2.910" with their popular 142 grain HPBT MatchKing bullet and the Nosler guide specifies a COL of 3.310" for the 6.5-284 Norma (longer than the popular 6.5x55!).

The 6.5mm-284 has become the cartridge of choice for long range (600-1000 yard) target shooting. It now dominates both NRA Long Range High Power (where in recent years it has been used to win the Leech and Wimbledon Cups) and F-Class Open matches and seems likely to maintain its position as the premier long range cartridge for many years.

In both performance and case capacity the 6.5mm Rem. Mag. and 6.5-284 Norma are between the .260 Rem. and the .264 Win. Mag. They shoot flatter than the .260 Remington and kick less than the .264 Mag. Shooting reasonable loads, barrel life is also better than the .264 Magnum, although with maximum loads the 6.5mm-284, in particular, has a reputation as something of a barrel burner in its own right. No doubt this is because it is primarily a target rifle cartridge and fractions of a MOA can matter at the highest levels of competition. A barrel that has fired about 1000-1200 rounds is usually considered to be past its useful life, although it may still shoot satisfactorily for big game hunting. Here are the case capacities of our two cartridges.
•6.5mm-284 Norma = 68.33 grains of water
•6.5mm Rem. Mag. = 68.64 grains of water

Despite their excellent long range ballistics, neither of these are popular hunting cartridges nor is there a plentiful supply of factory made rifles. Over the years, Remington has offered some of their bolt action carbines (Model 600, Model 660) and rifles (Model 673, Model 700) in 6.5mm Magnum caliber and Savage offers their production F-Class Open target rifle in 6.5mm-284 Norma. The great majority of 6.5mm-284 target rifles are custom built.

Among the major ammo manufacturers, factory loaded ammunition for the 6.5mm Mag. is available only from Remington, loaded with a 120 grain Core-Lokt PSP bullet (BC .323). Factory loaded ammunition for the 6.5mm-284 is available only from Norma, loaded with a 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet (BC .458) or a 140 grain Nosler Partition bullet (BC .490). Here are the common factory load ballistics for the 6.5-284 Norma and 6.5mm Rem. Mag. taken in 24" test barrels (velocity in feet per second / energy in foot pounds).
•6.5mm-284 Norma, 120 grain: 3117 fps / 2589 ft. lbs. at muzzle; 2890 fps / 2226 ft. lbs at 100 yards; 2675 fps / 1906 ft. lbs. at 200 yards; 2469 fps / 1624 ft. lbs. at 300 yards
•6.5mm-284 Norma, 140 grain: 2953 fps / 2712 ft. lbs. at muzzle; 2750 fps / 2352 ft. lbs at 100 yards; 2557 fps / 2032 ft. lbs. at 200 yards; 2371 fps / 1748 ft. lbs. at 300 yards
•6.5mm Rem. Mag., 120 grain: 3210 fps / 2745 ft. lbs. at muzzle; 2905 fps / 2248 ft. lbs at 100 yards; 2621 fps / 1830 ft. lbs. at 200 yards; 2353 fps / 1475 ft. lbs. at 300 yards

As might be expected by their very similar case capacities, there is not much difference in the ballistics of these two cartridges as factory loaded. The superior ballistic coefficient (BC) of the 120 grain Nosler bullet compared to the 120 grain Remington bullet accounts for what difference there is down range.

Due to the scarcity of factory loads, these are primarily reloaders' cartridges. Reloaders can essentially duplicate the factory loads listed above by shooting maximum loads in long barreled rifles. Bullets as light as 95 grains and as heavy as 160 grains can be used, although the popular bullet weights for hunting or target shooting are between 120 and 142 grains.

Published reloading data in the Hodgdon, Hornady, Lyman, Nosler, Sierra and Speer reloading manuals for these two cartridges varies considerably. This is no doubt partly because 6.5mm-284 rifles usually have barrels from 26" to 32" long and most 6.5mm Rem. Mag. hunting rifles are carbines with 18.5" or 20" barrels. The longest barrel supplied on a factory built 6.5mm Rem. Mag. rifle, to the best of my knowledge, was the Model 700 BDL with a 24" barrel and the most recent offering was the Model 673 with a 22" barrel. The longest length listed for a 6.5mm Rem. Mag. barrel in any of my reloading manuals (Hodgdon in this case) is a 26" pressure test barrel.

Depending on whose data you use, in 26" barrels the various 120 grain bullets can be driven to a maximum MV of about 3100 fps in the 6.5mm-284 (Sierra figures, with two powders) and at 3286 fps in the 6.5mm Rem. Mag. (Hodgdon figure, with only one powder). For a hunting rifle with a 24" barrel, loading for a MV of 3000 fps in the 6.5mm-284 and 3100 fps in the 6.5mm Magnum would seem reasonable.

140 grain bullets in the 6.5mm-284 Norma can be driven to a MV of 2924-2925 fps from a 26" barrel by two powders according to the Nosler reloading guide, or to 2901 fps by one powder according to Hodgdon figures. F-Class long range target shooters typically load their 6.5mm-284 rifles very hot and are achieving about 2950 fps from 30" barrels.

The Hornady manual shows that four powders can drive their 140 grain bullets at a MV of 2900 fps from a .350 Rem. Mag. rifle with a 24" barrel. I would consider 2900 fps from a 24" barrel about the maximum practical MV for either caliber. Here are some trajectory figures (in inches) for the Hornady 140 grain A-Max bullet (BC .550) at a MV of 2900 fps zeroed at 200 yards, 600 yards and 1000 yards.
•140 grain A-Max at 2900 fps/200 yards: -1.5" at muzzle; +1.6" at 100 yds.; 0 at 200 yds.; -6.9" at 300 yds.; -66.9" at 600 yds; -150.0" at 800 yds.; -281.2" at 1000 yds.
•140 grain A-Max at 2900 fps/600 yards: -1.5" at muzzle; +12.7" at 100 yds.; +22.3" at 200 yds.; +26.6" at 300 yds.; 0 at 600 yds.; -60.9" at 800 yds.; -170.1" at 1000 yds.
•140 grain A-Max at 2900 fps/1000 yards: -1.5" at muzzle; +29.7" at 100 yds.; +56.3" at 200 yds.; +77.6" at 300 yds.; +102" at 600 yds.; +75.1" at 800 yds.; 0 at 1000 yds.

These figures are humbling. They illustrate not only the extreme capability of our hot 6.5mm cartridges, but also how difficult long range shooting is with any cartridge, even the world's premier long range match cartridge. From the hunter's perspective, a bullet from a hot 6.5mm Magnum deer rifle zeroed at the usual distance of 200 yards will hit nearly 7" low at 300 yards; he will need to aim along the animal's spine to put his bullet into the heart/lung area. If he were so foolish as to try a shot at 600 yards, he would have to hold approximately 5-1/2 feet over his target!

On the other hand, if our hypothetical hunter anticipated shooting at long range and zeroed his rifle at 600 yards, he would shoot completely over the top of a deer that appeared at 200 or 300 yards; he would have to remember to hold a couple of feet under where he wanted to hit. Moreover, if his deer were 800 yards away instead of 600, he would have to hold 5 feet over where he wanted to hit! The bullet's 14+ foot drop at 1000 yards is too depressing to contemplate. And remember, this is shooting the ultra-low drag A-Max match bullet, not an ordinary hunting bullet. Ponder those numbers for a while and then decide if you still believe the stories you read in the sporting magazines about ultra-long range big game kills.

Trajectory is not the entire story, of course. Other factors are also important, particularly for the hunter. Sectional density (SD), the ratio of a bullet's weight to the square of its diameter, is an important factor in penetration and thus the length of the wound channel and killing power. 6.5mm (.264" diameter) bullets shine in this area. The sectional density of a 6.5mm/120 grain bullet is .246, slightly superior to the .242 SD of a 130 grain .270 bullet and practically identical to the .248 SD of a 165 grain .30 caliber bullet.

The sectional density of a 140 grain 6.5mm bullet is .287, which is considerably better than the .271 SD of a 180 grain .30 caliber bullet and nearly identical to the .288 SD of a 230 grain .338 bullet. The excellent SD of 6.5mm hunting bullets has made the caliber's reputation as a slayer of big game animals. It also contributes to the high ballistic coefficient of 6.5mm match bullets.

Recoil, or its absence, is another factor in the popularity and effectiveness of 6.5mm rifles. The 6.5mm-284 Norma and 6.5mm Rem. Mag. shoot as flat as a .300 Magnum with bullets of equal or superior SD, yet kick far less. It is no secret that anyone can shoot better with a rifle that kicks less. Here are some recoil energy (in foot pounds) and velocity (in feet per second) figures for 6.5mm-284 and 6.5mm Rem. Mag. rifles weighing 8 and 15 pounds.
•6.5mm-284, 8 lb. rifle, 120 grain bullet at 3000 fps: 11.6 ft. lbs, 9.6 fps
•6.5mm Mag., 8 lb. rifle, 120 grain bullet at 3100 fps: 13.1 ft. lbs, 10.3 fps
•6.5mm-284, 8 lb. rifle, 140 grain bullet at 2900 fps: 11.9 ft. lbs, 9.8 fps
•6.5mm Mag., 8 lb. rifle, 140 grain bullet at 2900 fps: 12.6 ft. lbs, 10.1 fps
•6.5mm-284, 15 lb. rifle, 140 grain bullet at 2900 fps: 6.3 ft. lbs, 5.2 fps
•6.5mm Mag., 15 lb. rifle, 140 grain bullet at 2900 fps: 6.7 ft. lbs, 5.4 fps

As the above figures show, you get a lot of performance for the price (in recoil) with these 6.5mm calibers. That, in a nutshell, is why the 6.5-284 has displaced the various .300 Magnums in the exacting sport of ultra-long range target shooting. The world's best riflemen know that less recoil translates to higher scores and knowledgeable hunters have learned that less recoil puts more meat in the freezer.

Summary and Conclusion

These hot 6.5mm numbers are superior long range cartridges. They offer a nearly optimum balance of characteristics, including low recoil, high velocity, flat trajectory, excellent sectional density and ballistic coefficient, adequate bullet weight and high retained energy downrange. The acceptance of the 6.5mm-284 among target shooters is understandable, since it uses the sort of short, relatively fat case upon which they dote. It is a design well adapted to single shot bolt action rifles. Match grade brass, while expensive, is available from Norma, Lapua and possibly others.

Why long range target shooters have not discovered the 6.5mm Remington Magnum as an attractive alternative to the 6.5mm-284 is something of a mystery to me. The two cartridges offer essentially identical performance. Perhaps it is because Remington has never produced match grade brass for their short magnum. It seems to me that Remington is missing a bet by not producing match loads and match grade brass for the 6.5mm Magnum--and promoting both. Perhaps an F-Class Open version of the 40XB target rifle would also be in order. (Many custom built F-Class rifles are based on a Remington action.) Savage Arms is producing excellent F-Class target rifles and sponsoring shooters. Could Remington not do the same? The way things stand, if NRA Long Range High Power or F-Class Open competition is your goal, the 6.5mm-284 Norma is the best choice.

The balance swings the other way if you are looking for a long range hunting cartridge. The 6.5mm Rem. Mag. is a better design than the 6.5mm-284 Norma for feeding from the box magazine of a repeating hunting rifle. It has also been around longer as a factory standardized cartridge and there are more factory produced rifles available on the used market. Remington ammunition is more widely distributed than Norma ammunition in the U.S. and usually less expensive. For the reloader, if cases must be formed, there are a great number of belted magnum cases from which 6.5mm Rem. Mag. cases can be formed, compared to the limited supply of .284 Win. brass needed to form 6.5mm-284 cases.

As we have seen throughout this article, choosing between these two cartridges really comes down to the intended application. The way things stand as I write these words, if you are looking for a long range match cartridge, go with the 6.5mm-284 Norma. If you are looking for a cartridge for a hunting rifle, the 6.5mm Remington Magnum is the better choice.

Note: A comparison of the 6.5mm-284 Norma and 6.5mm Rem. Mag. can be found on the Rifle Cartridge Page.

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Ripp
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Ripp]
      #305317 - 14/09/17 04:55 AM

Dave Petzals view and more recent...

Have to say, considering it has been around and used by long range shooters now for more than 50 years, think the "fad" era comment has come and gone..

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/guns/rifles/2014/05/long-time-coming

Most new cartridges arrive on the market with much publicity and reams of prose on how they are the deadliest thing since the rinderpest. Then the aura fades, and they sink to the sales level of the .22 Velo-Dog. The 6.5/284 Norma is different. Though it had been around as a wildcat since the mid 1960s, it was introduced with no fanfare as a factory load in 1999. But purely on merit, not hype, it has become more and more popular over time and is now a solid success.

In the Beginning
In 1963 Winchester created a cartridge designed to equal the ballistics of the .270 in the short actions of the Model 88 lever rifle and the Model 100 auto. The cartridge, dubbed the .284, was the same length as a .308, but its fat, nearly taperless body gave it a lot more powder capacity. Though the .284 achieved its design goals, it could not save either gun from being discontinued. The rifles vanished; the cartridge stuck around. The people who seized on the .284 were wildcatters. They created all sorts of variations on it, and among these was a cartridge called the 6.5/284. Shooters discovered that this wildcat could shoot bullets of very high ballistic coefficient at pretty good velocities, and that said slugs would hold those speeds for a long way downrange. Moreover, the round would do it with very little recoil.




High-power-rifle competitors learned that they could get better scores at 600 to 1,000 yards with a 6.5/284 than they could with traditional .30-caliber rounds. The smaller-diameter bullets shot as flat, and bucked the wind just as well, as the .30 calibers. But they produced far less recoil, which was a huge advantage. Despite the lack of factory rifles or factory ammo, the 6.5/284 prospered.
**
Enter Norma**
In 1999, Norma said "Oh, why not?" (or the Swedish equivalent) and introduced the cartridge as a factory round. This is probably when hunters began to catch on to its virtues. Here was a round that had enough power for all but the biggest game, did very well at long range, kicked very little, and worked through a short rifle action.

Hunters in increasing numbers have clutched it to their bosoms, and now there is no shortage of either 6.5/284 rifles or ammo. Savage, Ruger, Tikka, and Remington, to name a few, make the rifles; Nosler, Norma, Cor-Bon, and HSM make the ammo.

From handloading it, I can tell you that the 6.5/284 takes about 5 grains less powder per round than a .270, which makes for a noticeable reduction in muzzle blast and kick. The round does require a 24-inch barrel to get the maximum velocity from that charge. The 6.5/284 normally operates at high pressure, but without blowing primers I can move 140-grain bullets out of the muzzle at 2950 fps, and a lot of that velocity is still there at 300 yards plus. The reason behind this is the 6.5 (.264) slugs, which are very slim and very long for their weight and caliber, and whose ballistic coefficients are very high. The most common bullet weights range from 120 to 140 grains. The latter is my favorite; it provides the best retained velocity and the most downrange thump of any weight.

On Game
The 6.5/284 will drop anything that the .270 will, which is practically anything. I've shot small whitetails and a couple of antelope with the 6.5mm 130-grain Swift Scirocco bullet, and nothing moved out of its tracks. A good-size whitetail, taken with the 140-grain Nosler Partition, simply sagged sideways and never twitched. That same Nosler Partition killed an 800-pound elk in Utah. He did not seem to feel he'd been shot with too small a cartridge. Nothing is perfect, and the 6.5/284 is no exception. The ammo is not sold everywhere, and it tends to be expensive. Also, the cartridge is not easy on barrels, but you'll still get a lifetime of hunting out of one. The 6.5/284 won't turn you into a super shooter, and if you have a good .270 there's no reason to trade. But if you're in the market for a new rifle and you value bullet placement over gobs of power, here's a cartridge that will make you happy.

The 6.5/284's long, slim bullets, such as the Cor-Bon T-DPX (left) and the Nosler Ballistic Tip, retain velocity well.


--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (14/09/17 01:26 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Ripp]
      #305323 - 14/09/17 10:39 AM

And yet another...

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/reloading/greatest-cartridges-6-5-284-norma-long-shot

Back in 1963, the cartridge designers at Winchester introduced a new cartridge to the marketplace. Dubbed the .284 Winchester, it was designed specifically to produce ballistics equal to the .270 Winchester and .280 Remington, but in a case that was the same general length as the .308 case that would fit in the Winchester Model 100 autoloader and the Winchester Model 88 lever action rifles.

They succeeded by designing a rebated rim case with a greater diameter that provided a powder capacity about the same as the .270 and .280.

Although the designers met their design goal, the cartridge, and the rifles it was designed for, turned out to be considerably less than a smashing success. Savage made a few Model 99s in that chambering, and Ruger also did a run of M77 rifles chambered for the cartridge. To my knowledge, no other cartridge manufacturer except Winchester ever loaded the cartridge.

By all reasonable measures, an unpopular cartridge chambered in relatively unpopular rifles, and available from only one source, should quickly disappear from the market. The .284 Winchester cartridge was headed in that direction and would have made it there quickly had it not been for one factory.

Wildcatters found the case design suited the development of a few very useful non-standard cartridges, primary of which was the 6.5-284, legitimized by the Swedish ammunition maker Norma in 1999 and renamed the 6.5-284 Norma cartridge. The reason — the cartridge found its niche among long-range target shooters.
Related GunDigest Articles


I am told that these days it is the most widely used non-wildcat cartridge in F-Class and 1000 yard benchrest matches. For awhile, a variation of the 6.5-284 Norma held the 1000 yard benchrest record of 1.564 inch! That record was broken (group size 1.403”) in 2007, but the cartridge is still very popular with long-range competitors.

It is slowly gaining an inroad into the hunter’s market as well.
For awhile, a variation of the 6.5x284 Norma held the 1000 yard benchrest record of 1.564 inch!
For awhile, a variation of the 6.5×284 Norma held the 1000 yard benchrest record of 1.564 inch!

The 6.5mm chambering in various forms have long been popular in Europe and in Africa, but have gained acceptance in the US market very slowly. The US sporting market aversion to any cartridge designated with a mm following it has long had a very hard row to hoe among American shooters. That seems to be changing however.

Even my old pal and fellow curmudgeon David Petzal, seems to have taken a liking to the cartridge. Dave, for those readers that have been languishing under a very large rock for a half-century or so, has been writing for Field & Stream since the era of the quill pen and ink well. He has, during those many decades, earned the enviable reputation of not liking much of anything. However, even Dave wrote a two-part review of the 6.5-284 Norma in his Field & Stream blog that is reasonably favorable. Reasonably favorable from Petzal would be the equivalent of a gun-wrenching, wall climbing, flag waving, brass-band booming hoopla coming from anyone else.

He found the cartridge capable of extreme accuracy, while delivering the goods with light recoil. Typical of Petzal, he also wrote, “And one other fringe benefit: If, when someone asks you in hunting camp what caliber your rifle is, and you say “6.5-284,” people will have no idea what the hell you’re talking about and will think you know all about guns and shooting. I’ve been dining off this for years.”

I sure wish I had come up with that one!
================================

NORMA's take..

http://www.norma-usa.com/index.php/produ...e-month-6-5x284

Excerpt:
The same phenomenal external ballistics that endear the 6.5-284 Norma to many die-hard long-range competitors also interest a budding breed of hunters who excel at stretching the distance when situation dictates such. For a “mountain” or “African plains” rifle, where shot distances can be exponentially long, there’s likely no better choice; in fact, when loaded with streamlined hunting projectiles, the 6.5-284 Norma outperforms the vaunted 270 Win. at distances beyond 400 yds. For example, when loaded atop of 47.5 grs. of Ramshot Hunter, a Swift 130-gr. Scirocco II—with a BC of .571— propelled to 2,949 f.p.s. from the 26” barrel of my E.R. Shaw Mark VII rifle drops 3.4” at 300 yds.,14.6” at 400 yds. and 32.2” 500 yds. when zeroed at 250 yds. Despite its 3,250-f.p.s. muzzle velocity (factory-provided ballistics) the 120-gr. Kalahari from the 270 Win. Norma-USA American PH load drops 3.4” at 300 yds., 14.9” at 400 yds. and 34.4” at 500 yds. with the same zero. The key differences, however, are that the 6.5-mm bullet has an additional 448 ft.-lbs. of energy at 500 yds., and it deflects off course 11.7” less at the same distance when encountering a mild, 10-m.p.h. full-value wind. Such performance is why serious long-range competitors and hunters “pay to play” with the 6.5-284 Norma.




Edited by Ripp (14/09/17 01:21 PM)


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VonGruff
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Ripp]
      #305324 - 14/09/17 10:55 AM

I will stick with my 6.5x57 (140/2800 120/2950) and the little custom 6.5 Grendel-Max (123/2700 100/2950)Superb accuracy from both and up to anything I care to use them for.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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Ripp
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: VonGruff]
      #305329 - 14/09/17 01:33 PM

Quote:

I will stick with my 6.5x57 (140/2800 120/2950) and the little custom 6.5 Grendel-Max (123/2700 100/2950)Superb accuracy from both and up to anything I care to use them for.




AND that is what makes the proverbial world go around..shoot what you are comfortable with and feel good about..I am currently dealing on a Sako in 6.5x55...open sights,, think it would be great fun for whitetail deer drives in thicker woods...

Also have shot the 6.5 Grendel..great round...fun to shoot out of an AR style rifle as well...

In the end I plan to keep my 6.5x284 for the rest of my days..plenty of info out there by those who actually know it and have done it proving what a great round it is for those who care to enjoy its ballistics..if for nothing else than knowing while I am carrying it, that its superior to a 270..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (14/09/17 11:16 PM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Ripp]
      #305331 - 14/09/17 03:35 PM

Spot-on Ripp!

Right now, the 6.5's sit in the locker while I am HOT to trot to kill something with my 1936, Model 70 .30/06.

Just found loads putting 200gr. Nosler Partitions and 180gr. SST's in the same small group, 3" high at 100 with 165gr. SST's hitting 1 1/4" left at the same elevation.

That makes the zeros with these at 210yards, 240yards and 265yards.

Maybe the 6.5x55 next year! With that ladder rear sight and the 140 Sierras, I expect to easily smack the 1,000 meter steel buffalo.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Ripp
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Daryl_S]
      #305347 - 14/09/17 11:14 PM

Quote:

Spot-on Ripp!

Right now, the 6.5's sit in the locker while I am HOT to trot to kill something with my 1936, Model 70 .30/06.

Just found loads putting 200gr. Nosler Partitions and 180gr. SST's in the same small group, 3" high at 100 with 165gr. SST's hitting 1 1/4" left at the same elevation.

That makes the zeros with these at 210yards, 240yards and 265yards.

Maybe the 6.5x55 next year! With that ladder rear sight and the 140 Sierras, I expect to easily smack the 1,000 meter steel buffalo.




I've never had a 6.5x55...pretty excited to give it a try..AND, they have had the rifle in their gun shop for a long time..so getting a pretty good deal on it...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Daryl_S]
      #305364 - 15/09/17 09:07 AM

Quote:

Spot-on Ripp!

Right now, the 6.5's sit in the locker while I am HOT to trot to kill something with my 1936, Model 70 .30/06.

Just found loads putting 200gr. Nosler Partitions and 180gr. SST's in the same small group, 3" high at 100 with 165gr. SST's hitting 1 1/4" left at the same elevation.

That makes the zeros with these at 210yards, 240yards and 265yards.

Maybe the 6.5x55 next year! With that ladder rear sight and the 140 Sierras, I expect to easily smack the 1,000 meter steel buffalo.




Was rereading this..man that 200 gr '06 load would work pretty good on moose I would think???

I actually have a Cooper Jackson model in '06..was actually the first series they come out with years back..have never shot it..but plan to soon..put a Swaro on it 3-10 power...think it would also make an excellent leopard gun from the blind ..

Will have to contact you for suggestions on loads...

Have a good one..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (15/09/17 09:10 AM)


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Daryl_S
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Ripp]
      #305369 - 15/09/17 09:21 AM

Any time, Ripp. I lucked out on mine - first loads tested in all 3 bullet weights, all run sub 1" and are right "up there".
2 of them, the 180 and 200, are with quite temp stable powders.

The 200 Nosler is a terrific bullet for large game. Couple friends of mine used nothing but the load I tried, for all their hunting, black bears, deer (Muley and WT), elk and moose. One used the 220gr. Partition in .30/06 for grizzly - said it was better than his .300 Mag. gave with 180 partitions.
That could have been just due to the normal difference on conditions or between animal to animal.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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szihn
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: Daryl_S]
      #305520 - 19/09/17 01:11 AM

It offends many, as truth always does, but the Emperor really is naked.

The 6.5 credmoor is going to take hold because it gives very old, very tried and very true ballistics in new guns. The olderones would not take the longer 6.5 Swede or 6.5 X57 Mauser. But what makes it great is not new ballistics. We have had those ballistics for over 100 years. And much faster speeds since I was about 2 years old (and I am an old man)
The reason the 6,5CM is going to catch on and hold on is the fact that the old 6.5 cartridges did so well and the CM is copying their performance, but the rounds fit in detachable magazines.


Salesmen will jump on this and millions will drink cool-aid by the 55 gallon drum. It's worked on many shells that don't have much merit,,, and it also works on those that do (like the 6.5CM)

But the Merit the CM has is a combination of gun and shell, not shell alone.

If I were using a 6.5 MM for long range work in a standard bolt action I would not build or buy a 6.5 CM. I'd make a 5.6 Swede. Or even a 260 Remington (for the cheaper brass I can make from 7.62-NATO)

Those that see their favorite shell as a god will worship it, and be offended at those that don't. So be it. They are as entitled to their belief as anyone.

But in all history belief never changed a fact, or the truth, no mater how "hard' someone wants to believe it.

Here are FACTS.
6.5 CM with a 26 inch barrel operating at top SAMMI pressures as listed in the 2016 SAMMI spec sheet.

129 GR bullet with a G1 BC of .485 Top velocity of 2910 FPS,

Same bullet with a 260 Remingtom, using the same action with the same barrel length, at the same pressure. 2980 FPS (70 FPS faster)

Same bullet with a 6.5X55, using the same action with the same barrel length, at the same pressure.
3020 FPS (110 fps faster)

Same bullet with a 6.5-06, using the same action with the same barrel length, at the same pressure.
3048 FPS (138 FPS faster)


Now, just for fun, we'll look at the long heavy load for the 6.5CM. Using the same test gun at the same pressure, but using a match 143 grain bullet. G1 BC of .625 Muzzle velocity is 2789 FPS. Outstanding long range flight characteristics!

Here is a set of ballistics to look at.
BC of .525 ( inferior to the above BC by .01) 150 grain bullet. (7 grains heavier than the bullet above) Same action. 25" barrel (1 " shorter) Loaded to top SAMMI pressure as listed in 1968 Spec sheet.
3009 FPS (220 feet per second faster then the best of the 6.5 CM loads

So the .01 superiority of the .625 BC, VS a BC of .525, is offset by the 220 FPS faster velocity of this load, and the point of equality in trajectory is WAY out there. I would guess about 750 to 800 yards, but I don't have the chart to look it up.

Now both guns will have to have their muzzles elevated to hit a deer at that long range, so both have to be held up. Right?
If you can hold still enough to hit, holding a bit lower or a bit higher is not relevant to the a hunter. Bullet construction will matter at that range, but a .01 BC advantage or disadvantage is not an issue. That's a set of mathematical calculations but it's the man that must do the holding and the shooting. If you can hold X inches high you can hold Y inches high. If you can't hold, don't fire.

Is the last load "better"?

Maybe ,maybe not.

Personally I don't think so. But it's not worse either. It is more powerful, but does that make it better?

Is a good pick-up better than a good sports car?
Yes and no.
Depends on what you want to do with the auto.

The above information is not a format of worship. It's just a set of mathematical facts.
And fact by themselves don't lead to truth unless we want to know truth. Truth never makes any difference until there is enough humility to want to know it, even if you don't like it.

That's why arguing with "liberals" is fruitless. They hate facts. They hate the truth even more. They won't listen, their minds are already made up.

If your mind is made up and you are looking for facts to "prove" your religion, no amount of truth will move you.

Facts are just facts. If we stop worshiping things we'll start to think more clearly and not be offended if someone else drives a different type of auto, or shoots a different gun.

Edited by szihn (19/09/17 01:34 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: Behind-the-bullet- 6.5-284-Norma [Re: szihn]
      #305539 - 19/09/17 06:17 PM

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2016/12/20/the-65-creedmoor-what-s-the-big-deal/


The-65-creedmoor-what-is-the-big-deal???
by Richard Mann - Tuesday, December 20, 2016

Initially loaded by Hornady, the 6.5 Creedmoor has become so popular, it is now available from most major ammunition manufacturers.

The reason for the immense and continual rising popularity of the 6.5 Creedmoor is crystal clear to some and completely baffles others. After all, a ballistic twin to the 6.5 Creedmoor has been around since 1894. Yes, you read that right, 18—as in old enough to join the Army, 18—94. For those who are mathematically challenged, that was 122 years ago. This means 6.5 Creedmoor ballistics were available when the .30-30 Win. was introduced and about a decade before the .30-’ 06 Sprg. existed.

So why all the fuss over the reinvention of a cartridge introduced the same year Confederate Civil War Gen. Jubal Early died? The answer is as simple as it is complicated. The 6.5 x 55 mm Swedish Mauser was jointly developed by Norway and Sweden and was adopted in 1894 as an official military chambering. As a side note, that one cartridge was the reason Norma was founded. No one in the United States knew anything about the 6.5x55 until after World War II when thousands of surplus rifles began to pour into North America. Those rifles and the cartridge became somewhat prevalent because of their low price, but few became infatuated with either. This was partly due to the fact that Americans could care less about a 6.5 mm cartridge and partly because it wasn’t until the 1990s that an American manufacturer began loading ammunition for it.

In the mid-1990s a company known as A-Square submitted specifications to SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Institute) for a 6.5 mm cartridge based on the .308 Win. case, requesting it be named the 6.5-08. Shortly after, and with the support of the great gunwriter Jim Carmichael, Remington did the same, but requested it be named the .260 Rem. (Carmichael called his version the 6.5 Panther.) Loaded to mimic the ballistics of the then already 100-year-old 6.5x55 mm, the .260 Rem. had lots of appeal to NRA High Power shooters. This was partly because the overall length of the cartridge was 0.335 inch shorter, enough to allow it to fit in short-action boltguns—partly because, from an external-ballistics standpoint, .308 Win. trajectories and crosswind defiance could be matched with less recoil.


Here we arrive at the allure of 6.5 mm-rifle bullets. The ability for a particular cartridge to shoot flat is a result of its muzzle velocity and the aerodynamics of the bullet. Thirty-caliber bullets can be made to shoot just as flat as 6.5 mm bullets, but in order for this to be achieved, the bullet has to be quite long, and it has to be pushed to higher velocities than the .308 Win. is capable. This means longer, heavier bullets need a longer action, and it means recoil is increased. The hillbilly explanation is that 6.5 mm bullets offer the best balance of flat trajectory and tolerable recoil in sport-rifle cartridges, due to their high-ballistic coefficient (BC).

Where the .260 Rem. ran into problems was handling the lengthening and continuingly more-slender 6.5 mm bullets manufacturers were offering; bullets that had the high BCs that long-range shooters get week-kneed over. Loading these long bullets in the .260 Rem. pushes the limit on overall-cartridge length. The result is the cartridges may not fit in detachable- or even blind-box rifle magazines. Of course, you can seat the bullets deeper but this crowds powder capacity and, in some cases, pushes the ogive of the bullet below the end of the case neck.

Enter the 6.5 Creedmoor. This cartridge was introduced in 2008 and was the creation of Hornady Senior Ballistician Dave Emary and Creedmoor Sports General Manager Dennis Demille. The Creedmoor case has less body taper than the .260 Rem., it’s shorter and it has a 30-degree shoulder (as opposed to a 20-degree shoulder). The .260 Rem. has minutely more powder capacity, but is held to a SAAMI maximum-average pressure (MAP) of 60,000 psi as opposed to 62,000 psi for the Creedmoor. What this means is that for all practical purposes, the Creedmoor and .260 Rem. produce the same velocities. The Creedmoor is just built better to handle the high-BC bullets long-range shooters demand. You can load any 6.5-caliber bullet you could possibly want in the Creedmoor and it will fit in any short-action rifle or AR-10-size magazine.

To illustrate how this all sorts out downrange, we can compare Hornady’s flattest-shooting 6.5 Creedmoor load to its flattest-shooting .308 Win. load at 800 yards, using Hornady’s new 4 DOF ballistic calculator. The Creedmoor shoots flatter, hits harder, does not drift as much and kicks less. And that, my long-range-shooting nerds, is kind of a big deal.

Oh, and what is 4 DOF, you ask? Well, that’s another story altogether.

Edited by Ripp (20/09/17 12:57 AM)


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