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Waidmannsheil
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #298557 - 06/04/17 07:22 PM

One point that we haven't discussed is how well the linseed oil finishes that both of you are brewing up actually wear when the gun is used. Are they durable, how do they handle rain, how do they handle sun, how do they handle perspiration etc.

Waidmannsheil.

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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298566 - 06/04/17 11:45 PM

Hi W,

Don't rush me please, I'm not able to post everything in one hit! I did ask for patience at the start, as I have slowed up a lot, physically & mentally.

The next part of my post will be something about adding amber resin to some linseed oil and using that as the final coats of finish and something about filling pores without sanding between coats.
I don't have the info sitting here ready to post, I have to advance the work and take more images.

I started some offcuts last year with some amber and linseed mix and I intend to test those pieces with water, sweat, saliva & urine and various body fluids that I will extract from my neighbours puppy.

I don't have any test results yet as I purchased the amber and Swedish oils last year and took my time trying them on the offcuts.

In regards to a finish with linseed alone, I don't expect much from it re water resistance, durability etc. If I am able to make more gunstocks in future I don't think I will use linseed alone as the finish.

I have no intention of testing any of the offcuts in the sun. I did things like that a long time ago, the sun stuffs everything up after a good exposure.

As for juglansregia, he has tested and applied more oils to more gunstocks than I have, he might feel like offering some test reports, but he is very busy and doesn't need to be offering any reports.

Anyone else is also welcome to contribute about any linseed adventures they have had. Add in some images, they make for a better post.

Regards,
Gabe


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298592 - 07/04/17 08:05 AM

Gabe, not trying to make you rush, just getting a bit excited I guess. Between Junglans and yourself the posts have been very interesting and inspiring. The reason for the questions is that most articles that I have read in the past regarding Linseed oil have usually said that the finish looks great but does not wear all that well. Hence my question to you as you have done so much research with these oils.
I have a MS 1910 that I will be refinishing the stock on shortly and am now considering your method if it wears well enough.
As far as sun testing, I was referring more to how it reacts when being carried in the sun under normal hunting conditions rather than leaving it sitting in the sun for days on end.
By the way, I have ordered some of the Alkanet root powder which should arrive today or early next week. Should be good to see my wife's face when I ask her to buy me some Pantyhose.

Keep up the good work, really appreciated.

Waidmannsheil.

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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298603 - 07/04/17 10:36 AM

Thanks W, that's fine. Understand the excitement for new info. I will do more on the post today and this weekend. If you need any extra details after reading the post's please ask.

For intermittent sun exposure during normal handling cured straight linseed and many other finish's seem to be fine. It's the rubbing & handling, with some sweat, and the various gun cleaning oils that wears through the straight linseeds I have tried.

Adding the various natural or synthetic resins to the linseed gives a finish that is more durable. You have a commercial version in the Rustins DO. The cleaner linseeds like the Swedish or the fully washed oils as per juglans work are also supposed to be less susceptible to mildew.

I am mixing the ingredients myself as I want to try the English style finish, with a good red oil first then filling and final polishing with the oil and resin mix.

Earlier this week I showed a local friend one of the offcuts with the amber mix on it. I quickly rubbed some spots with saliva, water and Svalos thinners and nothing marked it. I'll expand more on the amber in the post.

At this stage my mix still has a low ratio of the amber varnish in it. As the ratio of varnish increases it becomes an oil varnish, and is used more as a brushed finish, for musical instruments etc.

You might come up with your own variation. Perhaps try one of the Swedish linseed's I have tried and then the DO on top or try the complete finish all with red DO.

I would love to learn what professionals like Joel Dorleac use, he would have well established finishing procedures after so many years in the trade.

When you infuse the alkanet in the p'hose check the liquid is penetrating properly thru all the powder. When I tried it in a different filter bag the oil only wet the outside of the ball of powder and I could not get it to infuse properly, even by juggling the bag.

Regards,
Gabe


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298604 - 07/04/17 10:44 AM

Thanks Gabe, I will definitely try the DO with the Alkanet and see how it goes on some samples, and then I will give report. Unfortunately with these oil trials is that everything takes months to see real results. Thanks again.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
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Waidmannsheil
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298736 - 08/04/17 04:37 PM

Gabe, I noticed in one of my books that Kurt Crum from the David Miller Rifle Company uses "Dalys Sea Fin Teak Oil". Have you ever tried that product or something like it, what are your thoughts.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #298751 - 08/04/17 06:53 PM

Yes W, I'm aware of Dalys finish's but have not seen them here in oz, so don't have an opinion. It would be another option to try if available. I imagine various stockmakers in the USA would use it. Is your book the nice one by Turpin, about the D.Miller company?

Check the links here..

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/gunsmithing-tips/stock-finishing. Wiebe also has alkanet in his products page.
http://www.dalyswoodfinishes.com/ read the specs pages and compare to Rustins DO. The Dalys Sea-Fin you mention is a marine type finish. Rustins has a different product for outdoors.

We could all go mad & broke worrying about which one might be the best, and experimenting with everything.

Regards,
Gabe93


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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298753 - 08/04/17 06:57 PM

Yeah you are right Gabe,we could just use two pack poly floor sealer!

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Juglansregia
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298899 - 12/04/17 11:02 AM

Gabe,

I have been so busy, no time to reply to your previous Q's yet.

For others I think the below link will explain a few things. Apologies if this information is very basic to some, but then I have not really seen the information out there in the gun community.

http://www.williamsburgartconservation.com/historic-varnishes-and-resi.html



http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/botany/gumresin.htm



http://www.woodshopnews.com/columns-blog...sh-is-paramount


https://books.google.com.au/books?id=90R...ish&f=false

None of the above provide all the info, but give some background. Not all applies to gun stock finishes, but with some background info we can start to understand what we need from a traditional gun stock finish.


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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #298913 - 12/04/17 05:06 PM

Thanks very much for the links Juglans. One of them came up when i was googling the subject last year.

I will try to add to my post soon. I have done some more with the offcuts and taken more images but i'm battling some waves of fatigue lately.

Gabe93


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Juglansregia
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #298922 - 12/04/17 07:34 PM

Gabe,

No pressure from me. Rest up, look after yourself.

I think to get your drying times of each coat as quick as you have done, is a very fine achievement indeed in your climate.


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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Juglansregia]
      #299174 - 17/04/17 10:37 PM

Adding more to my post, sorry for the slow progress.
Some basic testing of surfaces rubbed with an amber varnish & linseed mixture. The Groves amber varnish is made with 50% Baltic amber, 50% walnut oil & a bit of gum turps. He makes several types of resin varnish. I'm trying the amber varnish as Baltic amber is the hardest/best natural resin. A link here to his amber info. http://www.jamescgroves.com/germanambervarnish.htm

[image][/image]

My first mixture was 20ml amber varnish, 20ml red linseed, 20ml clear linseed & 5ml svalos thinners. I didn't add any driers,wax,filler,alcohol,venice turps etc as you see in various old style linseed formulas. Each time I applied the finish I then added 2 drops driers to 1/4 teaspoon finish.

This first mixture has a lot more oil and a lot less driers than Groves recommends for violin varnishing. It was drying enough to advance the work in 24-36 hours. One time I placed one offcut in the sun for 2 hours and it dried a few hours faster.

In the images below some offcuts had 3-4 coats mixture rubbed very thin over a filled surface, with a nice lustre and no visible built up coating. A couple of offcuts I am still filling had no extra coats rubbed on top. None had any wax applied. [image]http://[/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

The images below, wiping the surfaces with thinners, sweat & water didn't cause any marks. Standing puddles of thinners didn't cause any marks. Standing puddles of water & sweat made spots on a couple offcuts, a hint of spots on a couple and on one offcut made no marks at all. [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

I want to achieve more reliable resistance to water marking so I will increase the amber varnish ratio.
My next mixture is 1/2oz amber varnish, 1/4oz red linseed, 1/4oz clear linseed. No thinners added to this bottle yet as I noticed some residue settling in the bottom of the first bottle so i have to test if it was due to the svalos thinners.
[image][/image] [image][/image]

The images below, i cut down the various surfaces a bit, to continue testing with the new mixture, using 1500g w/d paper, 0000steel wool and Dico synthetic wools.
[image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

I will continue the post tomorrow afternoon. I have to sort through more images for the next stage.

Continuing with the new mixture, some offcuts that were already filled, now polished more with rottenstone and the finish on a cloth pad, then the slurry wiped off completely. Then the surface palmed off more, and checking closely the surface doesn't have any grey haze at all from the rottenstone. I will do this a few times and build up the lustre then retest with water when I think the finish is fully cured.
[image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

Edited by GABE93 (18/04/17 05:24 PM)


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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #299198 - 18/04/17 05:45 AM

Thats a lot of input Gabe and we all benefit from your knowledge.
Btw there are some snazzy off cuts in that lot too.

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93x64mm
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #299219 - 18/04/17 05:14 PM

Keep up the good work Gabe, slow & steady mate when you can get to it!
Don't go & blow a valve & overdo things hey!
Gryphon you hit the nail on the head there mate; certainly some brilliant off cuts there, but boy oh boy hasn't that timber been highlighted wonderfully!


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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: 93x64mm]
      #299221 - 18/04/17 06:46 PM

I still have the blank the last offcut above came from. I'll try to take an image of the blank and offcut together in good light and post it here. It's a very fancy but difficult blank to work with, due to warping, so perhaps viewing it might prompt some discussion.

I don't know if my experiment with the finish will be useful for me as I'm not likely to get back to gunmaking as a business. Perhaps I'm hoping i'll be able to get back to it as a hobby one day.

I'll continue the linseed post tomorrow. I have to write and sort some images about filling the pores on 2 of the offcuts.

Gabe

Edited by GABE93 (18/04/17 06:48 PM)


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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #299224 - 18/04/17 07:54 PM

OK the next question is Gabe how much is the blank going to cost me?

Then another..how bad is the warping and is it surmountable?

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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #299233 - 18/04/17 09:36 PM

gryphon,cheeky bugger, not trying to sell the blank. Just thought I could show it as you seemed to like the fancy offcut so much.

It's a long blank but due to the warp and another flaw it is only suitable for a 2 piece stock. But due to the length it has 2 forends, perfectly colour matched to the butt. It's wood I could hopefully use one day for a personal project, such as a Hagn action with 2 barrels.
Gabe


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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #299247 - 19/04/17 05:02 AM

Well lets hope you get back to it and get the Hagn going.

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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #299269 - 19/04/17 07:05 PM

Continuing the post, some work below filling pores with rottenstone, trying a method that various chaps have suggested when doing the English style linseed finish. This method helps avoid a lot of wet sanding to fill the pores.

The offcuts below were prepared last year by dry sanding to 1500g, with the grain raised often with filtered water. The very fine sanding to 1500g or beyond, with high quality paper, helps bring out the best in figured walnut. It helps bring more depth and clarity to the finish.

When raising the grain between grits check very carefully for any larger scratch’s left by the previous grit. The dry sanding needs to be as good as possible when trying to achieve the best finish.

Then red linseed is applied. The amount required will vary from blank to blank. When applying the red oil check again very carefully for any missed scratch’s. The oil will show them up. To remove any scratch’s wet sand the area with the oil and the last grit paper used for the dry sanding. Then wipe off all the slurry. Of course it all takes a lot more time and on a stock all the sanding has to be co-ordinated very carefully with the metal edges.

I then let the red oil cure about 2 weeks then I started applying my first amber mixture with rottenstone and French chalk.

Now continuing the pore filling with my second mixture with extra amber varnish and rottenstone. I have added a few drops of svalos thinners and 2 drops driers to ¼ teaspoon finish. Not sure I like the French chalk so I’ll avoid that for now. A coat of finish is applied then after about 1/2hr I rubbed in rottenstone. Keep rubbing and the rottenstone is forced into the pores.

The correct amount of rottenstone will “disappear” into the pores and the general wood surface will become clear. You don’t want a slight grey haze over the wood surface. I can just manage this type of rubbing with my weaker hands & arms. Trying to do a complete stock now would be a nightmare.

The rottenstone needs to mix with the previously applied oil so that it darkens and bonds to the wood. I could have waited longer before rubbing in the r’stone. Using too much r’stone will leave the wood surface and pores too grey. If that happens dab a bit of finish on the wood and keep rubbing, perhaps wipe off a bit of the excess and keep rubbing till the wood clears and it looks smooth. If your palm gets too sticky to rub smoothly wipe the skin with the thinners then keep rubbing.

Then wipe the surface with a white napkin, to remove any tiny bit of grey stone residue or trace of oil. I started this bit of work about 5.45 pm one evening. After about I hr when I finished rubbing the offcuts I checked the bit of finish mix left over and it applied easily to the bit of dowel below. I rubbed the surfaces lightly after about 5 hrs and they seemed dry. I then left them overnight. With the current mixture a quick worker could do 2 applications on a stock each day. I think this second mixture would stay workable enough to rub a complete stock before gelling up too much.

Multiple applications of a small amount of finish and rottenstone gradually fills the pores. Rubbing the wood off smoothly after each application should minimize the need for any further sanding, but very fine sanding at some stage may help sometimes.

Then the next day about midday I rubbed the offcuts firmly across the grain with tissue and the surfaces felt quite dry, no smudging, and the dowel sanded lightly ok but didn’t sand to a powder yet.

So this second mixture with 1 part amber varnish to 1 part total linseed, with the driers, is drying quite well. I will continue building up the finish on these offcuts then when all are cured hard enough I will retest with water and report back the results.

[image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image] [image][/image]

This first attempt at this method of filling has turned out reasonable. In the hand I think the filler so far is still a little grey so i'll keep practicing. Very fine ebony dust made with fine sandpaper may help darken the rottenstone a bit more.

I think I also prefer this method of palming in the rottenstone filler, compared to wet sanding the filler into the wood.

I have a couple more things to add to the post soon.

Below another test of 2 different types of gum turps, smeared on some glass. Both leave a slight residue, hard to see here, after 1 day they felt the same, after a few days the Lukas turps felt harder. the Lukas website is very hard to research, they have different versions, but I did see somewhere that this one is double distilled and it is their best turps I believe. It's available from Senior Art Supplies here in Oz.

The Diamond G turps is single distilled but from rosin tapped from the best type of pine for gum turps. Google the name for their website. They also sell the raw pine rosin from which the turps can be distilled. A link here to distilling turps on the Groves website. http://www.jamescgroves.com/PINE.HTM

I am looking into which turps is the best as I am not sure if the citrus type thinners is the best for the amber varnish. I got something settling out in my first mixture of amber varnish and linseed that included some svalos thinners.

Dictum Germany has a double distilled turpentine oil they claim evaporates without leaving residue but they won't ship overseas as it is Haz goods.



[image][/image] [image][/image]

Another point about the amber varnish, it's an expensive product, even though the Groves amber was the best value I could find in an amber varnish, so no doubt I will try other resins at some stage.

An alternative would be to use an old style marine spar varnish mixed with the linseed, one made without polyurethane. One of the best I believe is the Epifanes brand.

Another option is to add a bit of pure tung oil to the mix, to see if that improves the water resistance. I will also try a commercial tung and resin product such as the Rustins and see how that works with the linseed and the English style method of pore filling.

In the image below I also have another amber mix that I have not tried yet, with 3/4oz amber to 1/2oz linseed. I mixed it to use the last of the amber in that bottle, adding the linseed will stop the smaller amount of amber varnish thickening too soon.
[image][/image]

Edited by GABE93 (20/04/17 06:24 PM)


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #299273 - 19/04/17 08:04 PM

Hi Gabe, sorry to take so long to get back, yes the information about Kurt Crum was from Tom Turpin's book. Interestingly Duane Wiebe also uses Seafin Teak Oil combined with Alkenet and Linseed oil. He also has some interesting tips.

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/gunsmithing-tips/stock-finishing

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/gunsmithing-tips/linseed-oil-alkenet-root-application


The first guns stock that I re-finished I tried a method as used by Sterling Davenport which briefly consisted of wet sanding using Tung Oil and sanding enough to produce a mud consisting of Tung Oil and saw dust to fill the pores. Successively finer paper is used until the all the pores are filled and then the wet sanding continues without producing any mud. There is obviously more to it than that but that was the basics. It worked really well and I still use the gun regularly, only wiping after use with a silicon cloth. The stock finish still looks excellent to this day.
I have thought about collecting the saw dust created while dry sanding and adding that to the oil while rubbing to seal the pores, it is something that I am to try.

Waidmannsheil.

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gryphon
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #299304 - 20/04/17 06:11 AM

Gabe you keep rubbing like that mate and your arms will 'come back' I wish you the best with it all as Aus cant afford to lose your hands on skills.

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93x64mm
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: gryphon]
      #299306 - 20/04/17 06:27 AM

Quote:

Gabe you keep rubbing like that mate and your arms will 'come back' I wish you the best with it all as Aus cant afford to lose your hands on skills.



No one could have put it any better mate!


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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: 93x64mm]
      #299318 - 20/04/17 10:24 AM

Thanks chaps, I will have to practice the rubbing around a cheekpiece at some stage. Finishing flat offcuts is easier than finishing around a stepped cheekpiece.

I will post some images of the warped stock blank later today, just for general interest.

Regards,
Gabe


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GABE93
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Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #299320 - 20/04/17 10:37 AM

Quote:

Hi Gabe, sorry to take so long to get back, yes the information about Kurt Crum was from Tom Turpin's book. Interestingly Duane Wiebe also uses Seafin Teak Oil combined with Alkenet and Linseed oil. He also has some interesting tips.

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/gunsmithing-tips/stock-finishing

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/gunsmithing-tips/linseed-oil-alkenet-root-application


The first guns stock that I re-finished I tried a method as used by Sterling Davenport which briefly consisted of wet sanding using Tung Oil and sanding enough to produce a mud consisting of Tung Oil and saw dust to fill the pores. Successively finer paper is used until the all the pores are filled and then the wet sanding continues without producing any mud. There is obviously more to it than that but that was the basics. It worked really well and I still use the gun regularly, only wiping after use with a silicon cloth. The stock finish still looks excellent to this day.
I have thought about collecting the saw dust created while dry sanding and adding that to the oil while rubbing to seal the pores, it is something that I am to try.

Waidmannsheil.




Thanks W,

If the wet sanding method works well for you keep using it. I have used wet sanding and other methods for many years. I wanted to try the English style method, with less wet sanding, for a change.

I have the book by Jack Mitchell describing Davenports method. The nice book by David Wesbrook also has various finishing methods.

Regards,
Gabe


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: LINSEED OIL GUNSTOCK FINISHING [Re: GABE93]
      #299322 - 20/04/17 10:58 AM

Quote:



I will post some images of the warped stock blank later today, just for general interest.

Regards,
Gabe




You mean Gryph`s stock blank

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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