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Ripp
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Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback
      #292439 - 23/12/16 12:39 AM

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/3/9/5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback/


When you’re shopping for a rifle, the list of possible cartridges can be outright confusing. Short Magnums, Long Magnums, Ultra Magnums, stubby cases with long bullets, long cases even longer bullets; the list goes on and on. Some cartridges take root in the hunting world quickly, others fade just as fast. Some cartridges that were once the darling of the hunting world have faded into obscurity. While I realize and appreciate the efficiency of some of the newer offerings, I’ve always had a strong connection with the past when it comes to hunting cartridges. Here are a handful of cartridges that have fallen out of favor with the general hunting public, but are, in my opinion, still worthy of time in the fields and woods.

.300 Holland and Holland Magnum
The competition among the .30 caliber cartridges has always been heated, and why wouldn’t it be? I mean, how do you stand out among the kings of hunting like the .30/30 WCF and the .30-’06 Springfield, not to mention the .308 Win. and .300 Win. Mag.? Holland’s Super .30, as the cartridge is also known, is a classic in itself. Yes, I know the drawbacks: longer action, belted case that can cut down case life, but if you’ve spent any amount of time behind the trigger of the .300 H&H, I’d wager that you enjoyed the experience. The long, sloping shoulder makes the case feed like a dream, and the Super .30s I’ve have been very accurate. Pushing .30 caliber bullets about 150 fps faster than the aught-six, without a huge increase in recoil, the .300 Holland deserves to see the light of day in more rifles.

.358 Winchester
If you hunt the woods, where shots seldom approach 200 yards, a slower cartridge is no handicap to you. If you hunt the woods where larger creatures live, such as elk, moose or bears, a larger caliber than normal may be warranted. Col. Townsend Whelen saw the wisdom of this thinking when he necked up the ’06 case to hold .358” bullets, creating the .35 Whelen. Winchester, who saw the genius behind the .308 case, didn’t waste time necking it up to .358”, giving us the .358 Winchester. Is it a long-range sniper cartridge? No. Is it a speed-demon? Certainly not. But, it is a great woods gun, giving plenty of frontal diameter and more than enough horsepower for hunting the species I mentioned above. House it in a petite bolt gun with a 22” barrel, or an easy-to-carry lever gun, and you’ve got a companion for many autumns to come.

.250/3000 Savage
At one point in time, pushing a bullet to a velocity of 3,000 fps was unheard of. Today, we take that for granted. The .250/3000 Savage launched an 87-grain, .257” diameter bullet at that velocity, and was a deer-hunter’s best friend for a time. Now an 87-grain pill is certainly no heavyweight, but when properly placed on deer and antelope, it was a very effective tool. It shot, and still shoots, plenty flat enough for distant targets out to sane distances, and the short case can be housed in a nice lightweight rifle without any recoil problems. I know the .25-’06 Remington still has a huge following, but I think there’s plenty of room in the deer woods for the .250/3000.

6.5x55 Swedish Mauser
This cartridge falls into that category of “kills much better than its paper ballistics indicate,” as do many of the 6.5mm cases. The Swede has proven itself on moose and bears in Scandinavia for over a century, and was worthy of being chambered in the prestigious Winchester Model 70. The popularity of the 6.5-284 Norma (which I simply adore) hasn’t done the Swede any favors of late, but the old cartridge shouldn’t be overlooked. It’ll push the heavy-for-caliber 156 and 160-grain bullets over 2,500 fps, and with a 120 or 130-grain boat tail, it makes a good long-range hunting round. Recoil is totally manageable, and it’s a very accurate cartridge. If you’ve got a classic rifle on your wish list, don’t discount an old Winchester 70 Featherweight in 6.5x55.



7x57 Mauser
We all owe a debt of gratitude to the 7x57, as it was among the earliest cartridges that gave modern sporting ballistics, and was the basis for many cartridges to follow. Many legendary hunters, including Walter Dalrymple Maitland Bell and Jim Corbett, made their reputations carrying the 7x57, or .275 Rigby as it was known in Great Britain. The 7x57 made its reputation with the 173 and 175-grain bullets at 2,300 to 2,400 fps, depending on manufacturer, and that combination still makes a great choice for larger game. For deer and deer-sized game, the 139-grain bullets will reach 2,700 fps, with a decent trajectory that most of us would feel comfortable shooting as far as is ethical. In this modern era of huge cases and off-the-chart velocities, I wouldn’t hesitate to use a 7x57 Mauser for most of my hunting. Simply put, it works.

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
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Loc: NW Montana
Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: Ripp]
      #292441 - 23/12/16 02:52 AM

That's a good list and I agree with what he says except the silly statement that the "300 H&H belted case can lead to shorter case life"....well, only if you lack the ability to adjust a sizing die.

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gryphon
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: cordite]
      #292442 - 23/12/16 03:54 AM

"Pushing .30 caliber bullets about 150 fps faster than the aught-six, without a huge increase in recoil, the .300 Holland deserves to see the light of day in more rifles."

I agree and have a .300 H+H, it was acquired this year and from what I can glean in the online manuals there is a better gain in energy all over.

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: gryphon]
      #292443 - 23/12/16 04:17 AM

I agree with the .358 for short action rifles.

I would choose the .257 Roberts instead of the .250 Savage, but with a normal chamber throat in standard length actions.

The 6.5x55 is a hell of a ctg., having the capacity of the 7x57,. but in a slightly shorter case, hence it's larger base area by design to achieve this in the shorter m9496 actions.

In modern actions & using IMR 4320 in the 7x57 and Reloader powder #19 in both:

7x57 - 2,940fps with 139/140gr. & 2,700fps with 160gr.
and
6.5x55 - 2,960fps with 129gr. & RE#19 - 2,860fps with 140gr.

Both, given 22" to 24 bls.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rule303
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: DarylS]
      #292445 - 23/12/16 04:41 AM

There certainly is merit in what he says. Except the 358 with 200 to 225 grain bullets is a 300mt cartridge, not just a woods one.

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Homer
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: Rule303]
      #292452 - 23/12/16 09:51 AM

G'Day Fella's,

I totally agree.
They are all great cartridges and whilst some people have been marketed to and forgotten about them, several of these cartridges still have a place in my safe and get the job done....... without all that media marketing BS.

Merry Christmas you lot
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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500Boswell
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: Homer]
      #292460 - 23/12/16 02:03 PM

6.5x55 ,probably one of the best rounds ever !

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szihn
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Loc: Wind River Valley, Wyoming
Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: Homer]
      #292461 - 23/12/16 02:13 PM

I agree 100% with the first 3. I personally am quite fond of #1.
As for #4 and #5, The 6.5X55 and the 7X57 don't need to "come back" around here.

They never left.

I know quite a few hunters in central Wyoming that use them, and the 6.5X55 is available in the HOWA and is in demand. In fact it's interesting how many shooter go for it instead of the 6.5 CM which is supposed to be "all the rage" today. I have two M-96 Mausers here on my back wall, ready for stocks with brand new barrels. They will be sold as soon as I can get them done. I have reamers for a few 6.5s but the one that gets the most use by me is the 6.5X55.

As for the 7MM Mauser, I bet I know about 15 hunters within 100 miles of where I am right now that still hunt with the "old 7" and have no problem with it for anything they want to kill. Of those 15 (or so) hunters I know 6 of them that have KAR length Mausers rebarreled to the 7X57 as their main hunting rifles ------- because I am the one that made the rifles for them.

Maybe central Wyoming is "behind" the rest of the nation, but I think these hunters are actually "ahead".


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: szihn]
      #292462 - 23/12/16 05:30 PM

The 7x57 is still a popular round here in Australia as well. I know a lot of people who regularly hunt with that cartridge in a variety of rifles, Model 70, Mauser and Mannlichers being the most common.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
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gryphon
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #292464 - 23/12/16 07:48 PM

But how many have a Rigby .275?

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dracb
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: DarylS]
      #292465 - 23/12/16 07:55 PM

Daryl,

any idea what the pressures are for the 7X57 loads you describe?

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"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."


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DarylS
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: dracb]
      #292469 - 24/12/16 02:47 AM

Within normal for the 98 actions - probably in the 57,000 to 60,000 psi range - maybe 65,000PSI - 6mm Rem or. .270Win. - type pressures? The brass doesn't mind.

I was shooting the 160gr. TSX at 2,700fps using H4350 - seems to me, id I remember the powder correctly. Seems to me I got the data from a Brian Pierce or perhaps a Barnsness article in Handloader magazine.

The 6.5x55 data I worked up for myself in a new barreled, M96. Today, I'd likely prefer a simple 160RN at about 2,450fps to 2,500fps - easily achieved with H450 or some other slow powders. The 2,500fps with 160's duplicates Norma factory 156gr. ammunition for expansion. That is how I developed the 129gr. and 140gr. loads, using case web expansion on Norma factory ammo for the limits on Norma, RP and Fed brass. CIP standards for these rounds is 55,00PSI for the 6.5 and 57,000psi for the 7mm, 8mm and 9.3x62.
My current 6.5x55 is a like new M96, 5 groove 23.4" m38, I guess they are called. I am going to leave it an iron sighted rifle, unless I can find a scope mount for the rear-sight base. Had one on the last M96 I had and foolishly sold - that is the one I developed the ammo for.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (24/12/16 02:50 AM)


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DORLEAC
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Reged: 22/01/12
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: dracb]
      #292470 - 24/12/16 02:49 AM


That's very interesting, as it's close the list of calibers we have to build rifles for customers.
The 7x57 Mauser (.275 Rigby) is much in demand as is the .300 H&H.
The 6,5x55 Swedish is second to none when you want to build a light and accurate low recoil stalking rifle.
Cherry on the cake, the 250-300 is a natural choice when starting a project with an Original Mauser Kurz action…something we are working on presently.

Merry Christmas to all.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com


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xausa
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: DORLEAC]
      #292490 - 24/12/16 09:07 AM

I own and have killed deer with all but the 6.5X55. However, I own and have killed several deer with my 6.5X57's. I see no advantage the 6.5X55 has over the 6.5X57, and the 6.5X57 does not have the odd sized case head of the 6.5X55. The case capacity is virtually the same and modern loadings make the two practically indistinguishable. The 6.5X55 has benefitted from the number of former Swedish army rifles which once flooded the market.

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DarylS
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: xausa]
      #292492 - 24/12/16 09:28 AM

xausa - you, of course are quite correct - the 6.5x57 is an excellent ctg.
The 6.5x57 IMP, even better & should have the same capacity (60gr.) and ballistics as the 6.5x/.284. Mine did, even though it had the front end of a .260 Rem. producing 3,308fps with 120gr. XLC's & accuracy at 5 in 1/2"@100meters.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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rigbymauser
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: DarylS]
      #292515 - 24/12/16 08:03 PM

One can find fine but cheap rifles overhere in 6,5x57. One of the reasons this caliber doesn´t sell anymore is because no ammunition is made(or can be found) to shoot fallow deer and stag with. The existing ammunition does not meet the requierements(huntinglaws). The new ammunition found is fine for roedeer.
Fine Steyr, Mauser 66, Sauer 80/90 and early Mauser 98s are just standing in the gunshops shelves collecting dust if the caliber is 6,5x57....

The same thing can be said about 6,5x68Schüler

Edited by rigbymauser (24/12/16 08:05 PM)


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paradox_
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: rigbymauser]
      #292516 - 24/12/16 08:11 PM

Rigbymauser

Please send those 6.5x57 down here!!!, especially if they are Commercial Mausers

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DORLEAC
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: rigbymauser]
      #292517 - 24/12/16 09:04 PM


RWS loads the 6,5x57 with its 7 grammes (108g) and 8,2 grammes (127g) KS bullet (Kegelspitz).
They have also a 9,1 grammes (140g) DK (double core), a 6 grammes (93g) TMS and a 6,9 grammes (106g) Evolution Green.
That offer cover a wide spectrum of utilization and this cartridge is widely used here by mountain hunters who take various games from marmot to red stag.
My son uses such a D&D rifle from a while and it has never failed when the shooter does the job !
Notice also that the parent rimmed round -6,5x57R- is choice number one for Continental single shot rifles (Kipplauf).

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com


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xausa
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: DarylS]
      #292527 - 25/12/16 03:29 AM

Daryl,

I have a (probably undeserved) aversion to "improved" cartridges in bolt rifles, which has partly to do with my years of competitive shooting with such rifles and the difficulties those sharp shoulders create in reliable feeding, and partly to the numerous pre-64 Winchester Model 70's I have encountered over the years where a .257 Roberts has had an "improved" reamer run in it and had its ultimate value cut in half. I also spent a year trying unsuccessfully to make a 6mm Walker International, a popular bench rest cartridge at one time, feed in a Model 70. It is an improved version of the 6mm/.250, with a very steep shoulder.

I own a couple of hunting rifles with improved cartridges. One is a Model 70 which I bought in 1965 for $75.00 from my sergeant/clerk, who needed the money. It was a .243 Winchester which someone had improved by rechambering to .240 Page Sooper Pooper. The cartridge was a creation of Warren Page, at the time a well known gun writer and bench rest competitor. In essence, it is an improved .244 Remington, and cases are formed by shooting .244 Remington ammunition in it. I bought it with the idea of using the action as the basis for a match rifle. It was several years later before I decided to give it a chance on the range.

I loaded up some ammunition and took it out to an obscure location where my gunsmith friend had built a range. From a bench rest, he could shoot out to 300 meters. After sighting the rifle in, I decided to give it a try at 300 meters. The resulting five shot group measured less than 1.5". I still have the rifle, and it has accounted for numerous crows and ground hogs. Its dimensions would be close to your 6.5X57 Improved. In fact, it could be called a 6X57 Improved. Reliable feeding is not an issue with it.

The other rifle is also a Model 70. It has a barrel marked "Roy Dunlap" on top and "Bliss Titus" on the side. It is in caliber .300 H&H Magnum Improved. I have always thought that the fact that the 1000 yard Wimbledon Match at Camp Perry was won in the late '40's by a competitor firing a Model 70 with a Titus barrel in caliber .300 H&H Improved had something to do with that caliber's selection for my rifle, which is purely a hunting rifle. Although unmarked, the rifle was evidently stocked by John Hearn, whom Dunlap refers to repeatedly in his gunsmithing book. The checkering on the pistol grip appears to be unmistakably Hearn's.

I have never used the rifle to hunt with, because of the integral muzzle brake, and because I have both a perfectly good Model 70 in .300 H&H and a Weatherby in .300 Weatherby, which I bought at a bargain price, because it is left handed. Problems with my right eye are forcing me to learn to shoot left handed.

I have owned a number of single shot rifles in improved calibers, including the K-Hornet, the .219 Donaldson Wasp, the .219 Improved Zipper, the 6mm Ackley Improved Krag and the .25 Ackley Improved Krag, and in my opinion these rimmed cartridges are the proper subject for improvement.

I apologise for hijacking the thread.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: xausa]
      #292529 - 25/12/16 05:12 AM

Agree - sometimes they can be a bear to get to feed.

Your 6.5x57IMP sounds like a wonderful dear, bear, moose, elk rifle.

1.5" at 300yards is excellent. I tested my #3 (Shilen bl.) weight .257 Robert's IMP at 300 meters on our in-town range many years ago, before the range was shortened to 200 meters.

With 120gr. Horandy HP's running 3,199fps MV, I managed to put 5 rounds into 1.99". I was shooting with my buddy Keith, that day - WOW - 1984, maybe?

The IMP's will work fairly well in good rifles, but of course, so do the standard rounds.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: xausa]
      #292663 - 28/12/16 03:39 AM

Quote:

Daryl,

I have a (probably undeserved) aversion to "improved" cartridges in bolt rifles, which has partly to do with my years of competitive shooting with such rifles and the difficulties those sharp shoulders create in reliable feeding, and partly to the numerous pre-64 Winchester Model 70's I have encountered over the years where a .257 Roberts has had an "improved" reamer run in it and had its ultimate value cut in half. I also spent a year trying unsuccessfully to make a 6mm Walker International, a popular bench rest cartridge at one time, feed in a Model 70. It is an improved version of the 6mm/.250, with a very steep shoulder.

I own a couple of hunting rifles with improved cartridges. One is a Model 70 which I bought in 1965 for $75.00 from my sergeant/clerk, who needed the money. It was a .243 Winchester which someone had improved by rechambering to .240 Page Sooper Pooper. The cartridge was a creation of Warren Page, at the time a well known gun writer and bench rest competitor. In essence, it is an improved .244 Remington, and cases are formed by shooting .244 Remington ammunition in it. I bought it with the idea of using the action as the basis for a match rifle. It was several years later before I decided to give it a chance on the range.

I loaded up some ammunition and took it out to an obscure location where my gunsmith friend had built a range. From a bench rest, he could shoot out to 300 meters. After sighting the rifle in, I decided to give it a try at 300 meters. The resulting five shot group measured less than 1.5". I still have the rifle, and it has accounted for numerous crows and ground hogs. Its dimensions would be close to your 6.5X57 Improved. In fact, it could be called a 6X57 Improved. Reliable feeding is not an issue with it.

The other rifle is also a Model 70. It has a barrel marked "Roy Dunlap" on top and "Bliss Titus" on the side. It is in caliber .300 H&H Magnum Improved. I have always thought that the fact that the 1000 yard Wimbledon Match at Camp Perry was won in the late '40's by a competitor firing a Model 70 with a Titus barrel in caliber .300 H&H Improved had something to do with that caliber's selection for my rifle, which is purely a hunting rifle. Although unmarked, the rifle was evidently stocked by John Hearn, whom Dunlap refers to repeatedly in his gunsmithing book. The checkering on the pistol grip appears to be unmistakably Hearn's.

I have never used the rifle to hunt with, because of the integral muzzle brake, and because I have both a perfectly good Model 70 in .300 H&H and a Weatherby in .300 Weatherby, which I bought at a bargain price, because it is left handed. Problems with my right eye are forcing me to learn to shoot left handed.

I have owned a number of single shot rifles in improved calibers, including the K-Hornet, the .219 Donaldson Wasp, the .219 Improved Zipper, the 6mm Ackley Improved Krag and the .25 Ackley Improved Krag, and in my opinion these rimmed cartridges are the proper subject for improvement.

I apologise for hijacking the thread.




Interesting reading this response...

I only have one improved at this point and that is the 280AI..have been using it for about the past 8 years..have had none of the issues described above..it is a custom built be Lex Webernick..I really like this caliber in fact plan to get another for my wife..

Thank you

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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coll416
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Loc: Central Queensland
Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: Ripp]
      #293878 - 15/01/17 07:24 PM

My hunting partner uses a Browning BLR in .358W with 220gn Speer flat points for wild pigs, this combination flattens big boars and some. With 225gn Sierra it handles the bigger feral donkeys & horses easily!

I reckon .358W the older 9.3x57 with their heavier bullets are just the ticket in thicker country.


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A_Pepsi_Cola_Can
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: coll416]
      #293879 - 15/01/17 08:37 PM

My vote would be for the 577/450 in a Ruger No1 or even a double.
I love the Martini Henry id just like something a bit less picky


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93x64mm
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Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: A_Pepsi_Cola_Can]
      #293908 - 16/01/17 08:42 AM

This is why we do what we do!
Most of us don't have the run of the mill cartridges in our possession (or would like to have), that is what sets up apart.
My 'oddballs' consist of 7x57mm, .303 P14's, .32-20, .308 Norma Magnum (just a good as the .300 Winchester if not more efficient), 9.3x64mm (obviously), .404Jeffery & .500 3" (in a Ruger No1). Not including others which I consider rum of the mill cartridges (.22LR, 12g. .223 etc)
All of which would also fall into this category as well.
Yes I would love to have a double given enough time & the ability of not getting shot by the wife!

Like Ruger did with the No1 bringing out the .303 again a few years back, this is what should happen to breathe new life into these fantastic cartridges again!
I certainly like all of the suggestions so far...especially the Martini; but as to what calibre....maybe a 450NE as I also have that calibre gap in my collection!

Who knows what I'll get next after my .410 H&R model 1915?
But one thing for sure it'll be something a bit different that's for sure!
93x64mm


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MMBA
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Reged: 12/12/15
Posts: 89
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: 93x64mm]
      #293919 - 16/01/17 11:17 AM

Hello all

Speaking to what I know a bit about, my 250-3000 is a cartridge that will always be in the chuckle-room (gun safe😜).

Thankyou
MMBA


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MMBA
.275 member


Reged: 12/12/15
Posts: 89
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: MMBA]
      #293920 - 16/01/17 11:18 AM

(bugger those smileys - one day....)

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Wanabebwana
.300 member


Reged: 11/01/13
Posts: 221
Loc: Canada
Re: 5-rifle-cartridges-that-need-to-make-a-comeback [Re: MMBA]
      #294024 - 18/01/17 03:29 PM

A lot depends on the rifle and action you prefer.
In a bolt action you have a much greater selection. Your tolerance to recoil, the weight of the rifle,
the range at which you might shoot and the type of game. Ammo availability may also be a factor.
There is a factory load out there that will do the job on any game from squirrels to elephants.

The .300 Savage is sweet to shoot in a bolt action and is fine for white tails.
The 9.3x57 can be loaded with 232 to 325gr bullets and is a very efficient bush gun.
The 8x64S when loaded to full potential can significantly better the .30-06 with the same amount of powder.
The 9.3x62 is a powerhouse with a great knock down punch for moose and elk with a little more powder than the '06.
The .404 Jeffrey can be made with a modified standard Mauser 98 action. Pedigree and performance.


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