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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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Ripp
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The greatest rifle ever made???
      #287266 - 01/09/16 10:57 PM

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/...m_campaign=0916



At first glance, declaring a rifle “the greatest ever” was to be a daunting task. The rifle, as we know it, has been around for hundreds of years and many examples have come as close to perfection as imagination and technology allowed. Rifles have been made to shoot tiny groups at ungodly ranges and have been crafted with almost unimaginable beauty. After much reflection, though, the choice was relatively simple. The same contender kept showing up on every list. No, it's not a rifle that's known for especially great accuracy, or because it features hundreds of hours of masterful engraving. Its genius is in its fundamental design—function personified. The winner, in my book, must be the 1898 Mauser.



Oh, you disagree? Fine—but name for me a bolt-action design introduced since the Mauser that isn’t an evolution or an all-out plagiarization of the German masterpiece. Your list probably won’t require all of your fingers. The 1903 Springfield? A Mauser copy that required the payment of royalties. The Winchester Model 70? Clearly an evolution of the Mauser ‘98. Maybe a Kimber? They used the extractor. Ruger M77 Mk II? Yep. CZ 550? Aye. Are you sensing a trend here? Military- and police-issue Mausers were adopted by so many nations around the world that it’s nearly impossible to keep track. There are Czech Mausers, Turkish Mausers, Argentines, Chileans, Bolivians, Columbians, Mexicans, Siamese, Persians—you get the idea. In terms of being prolific as a battle rifle, one could say that the Mauser was the AKM of the first half of the 20th Century. There are so many factory variations of the basic 1898 design that entire books have failed to catalog them all. Mauser sporting rifles, whether factory, custom, or home-built, can be found anywhere that hunters roam.

The ’98 wasn’t the Mauser brothers’ first stab at a turn-bolt action, but it was certainly their most successful. The Mauser was designed as a military rifle and was state-of-the-art technology at its inception. War is, and was then, a dirty exercise prone to breaking out in inhospitable corners of the globe. Every element of the rifle was engineered to be reliable and durable in any conceivable environment. Enthusiasts often point to the 98’s massive, non-rotating claw extractor as the key to its reliability. While remarkable, it is but a single piece in the puzzle. Surplus military Mausers made a century ago feed, fire, extract and eject with reliability that many of today’s rifles could only dream about. The massive cocking piece doesn’t have the lock time of a target rifle, but it ensures that the primer goes bang every time. The gaping receiver may compromise rigidity, but its fast to load and has plenty of ejection clearance—factors that could become lifesavers during a dangerous game encounter.

Everything from the Mauser’s cock-on-opening operation to the fixed ejector was built to minimize and mitigate failure. If a catastrophic ammunition-related failure did occur, the 98’s gas-handling features and third bolt lug protected the shooter’s eyes and face from nasty wounds. Gas handling is a big deal that you’ll likely never concern yourself with until a case fails, at which point, it may be too late to consider. Paul Mauser himself lost an eye from a rifle firing out of battery, so his obsession with safety is understandable. Mauser’s August, 1895 patent application goes into specific detail regarding how his action design protects the shooter from gases that “forms not only a danger to the person using the arm but also causes more or less damage to the weapon”. Hunters afield are at no less risk of a case failure than soldiers were in the trenches of Verdun, and the Mauser protects each equally.

When Mauser began making sporting rifles, it did not delete the features that made its rifles so reliable on the battlefield. Rather, it embraced them. Likewise, when Mauser actions were exported to England to be made into Rigbys, Jeffreys and Westleys, their legendary reliability was maintained. Even today, the finest sporting rifles on the planet often begin as Mauser ‘98s, or modern clones. My .300 H&H was built on a 1909 Argentine Mauser and my 7x57mm was made from a Steyr G.29/40; there’s another 1909 on my bench at the moment that will resume life as a .35 Whelen. Firms such as Prechtl and FZH are building proper Mauser actions with tight tolerances and modern steels that combine the best of modern technology and a timeless Victorian-era design. Even with modern CNC machining methods available, the Mauser action is expensive and complicated to produce; that it was mass-produced so well with belt driven manual machines is staggering.

So we have an action designed on a military budget with almost no object to cost or commercial viability. This action was designed to be as reliable and as safe as possible and is capable of sub-MOA accuracy at the hands of a good maker with a fine barrel. It is so stylistically beautiful that even the famed “Golden Age” English gunmakers did not attempt to improve upon it. It can be scaled to the tiniest of centerfires and stretched to accommodate the largest elephant stoppers. It has been copied and adapted but still, over 100 years after its design, can barely be improved-upon for a sporting repeater. It is, without debate, the greatest rifle ever made.

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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287278 - 02/09/16 03:34 AM

So this post takes the record for the worlds shortest debate: exactly 1 post long

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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287291 - 02/09/16 10:08 AM

Is there any need for debating the end results above,IMO no!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287366 - 04/09/16 04:26 AM

I started with a Mauser 98 Parker Hale 1200 Delux in .30-06 as my first medium or larger calibre rifle.

Later ended up thinking about replacing it with a Winchester Featherweight Model 70 in .30-06. Not only did the Winchester Featherweight not shoot at all, 8 to 12 inch "groups", rebedded, new scope, new mounts nothing worked and they had that reputation. But one day I had a projectile get pulled out in the rifling and the powder get into the action. It took forever to get the last grain out so the action would function again ... After that no longer seated the projectiles for ultimate accuracy touching the lands and also decided only the Mauser M98 action was for me. Also had the action seize up on an unfired cartridge, unable to open the bolt or apply the safety. Put into the boot of the car, with a large block of railway sleeper wood in front of the muzzle in case of discharge and dropped off to a gunsmith to have it unseized and the action opened again. Sold the horrible thing off ...

Now I do have a (two) Mauser M03 as one of my new principle rifles ... and some Mannlicher/Steyrs etc, and Lee Enfields etc etc, but the Mauser 98 itself remains the ultimate for me.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: NitroX]
      #287367 - 04/09/16 05:03 AM

M03? Whom did you source that from JH?
Price paid?

PM if not wanting to disclose here.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287369 - 04/09/16 06:17 AM

PM sent. One was from an acquaintance who owned a gunshop/dealers licence which no longer exists, and the other was recently from a NE member.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: NitroX]
      #287371 - 04/09/16 06:40 AM

Responded

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Wanabebwana
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287523 - 07/09/16 01:36 PM

There is no question that the greatest bolt action ever designed is the Mauser 98.
To dispute this fact would be to say that H&H, Rigby, Jeffrey,Purdy, Westley Richards, Dorleac, Mauser, Prechlt, and all the other makers of the finest most expensive bolt action rifles in the world
are wrong and that you are right. Only an American would want their dream hunting rifle built on another action.( Pre 64 Winchester, 1903 Springfield, P17 Enfield all based on Mauser patents but built to save manufacturing cost as is so evident in Mod 70 bottom metal).
The Mannlicher Shoenauer is also incredibly well made and to me is the second best and well worth owning but Mauser has been by far the best for 118yrs and is still the best today. Granite Mountain, Saterlee,Mayfair,Prechlt/Golmatic, and FZH manufacture and sell actions for $4k-7k.

This really is a one post argument.


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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #287527 - 07/09/16 03:51 PM

ha ha Ripp solved that with his O/post

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Homer
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287528 - 07/09/16 04:39 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Bit of a No-Brainer I say!

It would have to be a Mauser 98 but I might have to say, it would have to be of current manufacture.
Whilst I haven't laid eye's on a New Mauser 98, I could imagine the metallurgy and tolerance of a current M98, would take some beating?

Doh!
Homer

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DarylS
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Homer]
      #287541 - 08/09/16 01:01 AM

Since it seems the Model 1871 Mauser lead to the Model 88 and then the 98 - would not the model 1871 be the greatest action ever built. But, since the model 1898 is still behind made 120years 'later', basically copied with slight modifications to bridge copy-right laws by many different manufactureres, albeit with few changes, maybe it's the best by default after all.

--------------------
Daryl


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Ahmed577
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: DarylS]
      #287552 - 08/09/16 07:37 AM

The design first metal second. Have many guns but love to sit and feel my little Kurtz action holland&holland 250-3000 pot rifle. No party without her by my side.

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Ripp
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287554 - 08/09/16 09:44 AM

Quote:

ha ha Ripp solved that with his O/post




I have always felt the Remington action is far superior to the 98 Mauser--don't need all that controlled round feeding and heavy extractor--needless items that only give credence to the less informed ...if you want something truly stout in nature buy a Savage with the svelt bolt and locking nut they put on all their guns....

KIDDING OF COURSE..

As only an AMERICAN would challenge this post.. -- Even though I WAS the one posting it... Dang Americans...

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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BillG500
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287557 - 08/09/16 10:26 AM

Lithgow .22LR single shot......Well at least I thought it was when I was 12 and it was my first rifle.

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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: BillG500]
      #287565 - 08/09/16 05:26 PM

Dang? Doesn't that mean fuck off in Aussie Art lol

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CDorroh
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287567 - 08/09/16 09:19 PM

No argument here. The M98 has to be the most copied rifle action in history. As was also pointed out, most of the premium gun makers use a version of the M98 action for their bolt guns. There's a reason for that.

Edited by CDorroh (08/09/16 09:22 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287569 - 09/09/16 12:54 AM

Quote:

Dang? Doesn't that mean fuck off in Aussie Art lol




Perhaps, but done in such a way you'll thank me for it...

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (09/09/16 01:00 AM)


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287573 - 09/09/16 01:26 AM

Dang, dang, dang I say!!!!!! Let's have peace across the border with our close relatives!!! American ingenuity, foresight and a penchant for marketability has recognized the M98 action for the great invention that it is and has somewhat bastardized it to make it cost effective and thus more widely available. The great American industrial machine operates on modularity, and thus is able to scale effectively to cater to the masses.

Controlled round feed? Yup, expensive to produce and pretty dang cool, but a Remmy 700 will feed very effectively even when "up freakin side down"!!!! So who gives a shit about overly complicated gear? Controlled round feed only matters for those who want something to sell to the market that is arguably not necessary or required but want to be different and "need" a distinguishing feature.... This is simply a marketing play and no more. I have both and respect that they both must be handled slightly different lest one "dangs" it up and jams the rifle. Yup, it takes a village to raise an idiot, and even an idiot can bugger up a controlled round feed.

Funny. I actually thought this thread would be exactly one post long based on the non debatability of the OP. Boy, did I ever call that one wrong!!!!!


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Ripp
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287577 - 09/09/16 02:53 AM

Quote:

Dang, dang, dang I say!!!!!! Let's have peace across the border with our close relatives!!! American ingenuity, foresight and a penchant for marketability has recognized the M98 action for the great invention that it is and has somewhat bastardized it to make it cost effective and thus more widely available. The great American industrial machine operates on modularity, and thus is able to scale effectively to cater to the masses.

Controlled round feed? Yup, expensive to produce and pretty dang cool, but a Remmy 700 will feed very effectively even when "up freakin side down"!!!! So who gives a shit about overly complicated gear? Controlled round feed only matters for those who want something to sell to the market that is arguably not necessary or required but want to be different and "need" a distinguishing feature.... This is simply a marketing play and no more. I have both and respect that they both must be handled slightly different lest one "dangs" it up and jams the rifle. Yup, it takes a village to raise an idiot, and even an idiot can bugger up a controlled round feed.

Funny. I actually thought this thread would be exactly one post long based on the non debatability of the OP. Boy, did I ever call that one wrong!!!!!




I am traveling and may not see this forum for a few days..so wanted to make sure this doesn't go negative..I have NO axe to grind here..think the Mauser is probably the best ever..and as you state have used Remingtons most of my life with no failures as well..my last post was a feeble attempt at humor...


Have a great day

Ripp

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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287578 - 09/09/16 04:10 AM

Lost in translation there are no axes...thats it!

I too have both controlled and push jobs,neither have failed me in all sorts of trial conditions but I had a thought that if I had the money would I build new on a Win action or a Mauser action.
Well I think something like the Mayfair would win,then of course there would be no one to pick it to pieces lol!

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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287581 - 09/09/16 06:59 AM

No worries at all Ripp!!!! I was having a bit of fun with it as well. . If you haven't already figured it out, I'm a bit of a windbag and do ramble on a lot!!!! The thing that makes this forum great is that it is founded on respect, with a healthy dollop of grace and tact..... Travel safe!!!!

P.s. I do agree with your original post.... The M98 and its many many derivatives are in my very humble opinion worthy of the best rifle design ever award, and a push is just a branch in its evolutionary tree. All the best, Postman

Edited by Postman (09/09/16 07:09 AM)


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lonewulf
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287585 - 09/09/16 09:31 AM

Quote:



Controlled round feed? Yup, expensive to produce and pretty dang cool, but a Remmy 700 will feed very effectively even when "up freakin side down"!!!! So who gives a shit about overly complicated gear? Controlled round feed only matters for those who want something to sell to the market that is arguably not necessary or required but want to be different and "need" a distinguishing feature.... This is simply a marketing play and no more. I have both and respect that they both must be handled slightly different lest one "dangs" it up and jams the rifle. Yup, it takes a village to raise an idiot, and even an idiot can bugger up a controlled round feed.






Well, I'm not sure if the above was intended as a joke or not (if it was I apologize in advance) but whatever the case I would maybe go so far as to say controlled round feed could be considered 'overkill' in certain shooting situations but "marketing" - OMG no! And although a well made Remington is probably good enough for most hunting applications it would, IMO, be fatuous to suggest it's in the same league as a Mauser.

If you were stuck way out in the back of beyond in a nasty life or death situation and you had the option of a 98 or a Remington would you really take the latter with it's lack of CRF, its puny extractor and it's little spring activated button ejector - over a Mauser? Seriously?

Edited by lonewulf (09/09/16 09:34 AM)


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #287590 - 09/09/16 11:46 AM

I'd take my double rifle in such a situation.

To call CRF simply marketing is harsh indeed but it sure would seem that many manufacturers are jumping all over that feature and hollering from the top of their advertising dollars that if one doesn't have CRF, then one is doomed to suffer unreliability which just isn't so.

Anyhow, I suppose I'm not really much married to the outcome one way or the other, but I do believe the argument for one over the other is really more rooted in one's personal belief system than in any critical technical merit of one vs another, particularly when one notes that 99% of hunting does not involve DG. Confidence in one's equipment is worth millions in a sticky situation and of that I do firmly believe. Gosh, we should have maybe spun this discussion off into its own dedicated thread, CRF vs Push Feed....... And to answer your question: yes I'd take the CRF Mauser in the very narrow scope of hunting that is DG. Why not? But I wouldn't feel terribly impaired (other than its crappy 2 round magazine capacity) if I had a Weatherby MK V big bore push feed in my hands either.


Edited by Postman (09/09/16 03:02 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287592 - 09/09/16 12:15 PM

I kind of like my M76 in .50/95 - but any rifle would be welcome, as long as it smacked hard enough. The Marlin model 1895 .45/70 also fits. Both are pretty much controlled round feed.

--------------------
Daryl


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lonewulf
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287599 - 09/09/16 03:19 PM

Well, as noted in my initial response, I believe a non-CRF rifle, such as the Remington, would be fine for a good many hunting situations and indeed in most instances, and possibly all of them. However, that isn't to say it's a 'better' action than a Mauser 98. You could for example probably do just fine on any DG hunt armed with almost any action type you liked, chambered in 30-06, but that doesn't mean the rifle, whatever it might be, is a good choice.

Unlike the Remington, the Mauser has a number of inbuilt safety features that make it about as reliable and safe as a bolt action possibly can be. CRF is but one of those features. And no, it's not essential to the operation of the rifle under normal circumstances. But neither is a safety belt essential equipment in a car - under normal driving conditions. But stressful situations, such as warfare and the hunting of DG for example, can make people do things that they normally wouldn't, like attempting to insert a round in a breech that already has a round in it. This is a common mistake. That possibility is largely eliminated in a 98 but not so in a Remington. If you mistakenly attempt to double charge your Remington while facing DG you may find yourself in the invidious position of having to immobilize the uncooperative brut with repeated blows from what is now, for all intents and purposes, a club.

And if you don't believe that sort of mistake would happen, just have a look at the records of muzzle loaders recovered after some of the battles in the Civil War. A surprising number of them were found to have been loaded, right to the muzzle, with un-fired charges.

Edited by lonewulf (09/09/16 03:20 PM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #287607 - 09/09/16 05:42 PM

Hmm, 2 camps (double and magazine)

J. Hunter, over 1000 rhino and 800 elephant on control work...pair of Holland .500s
Alan Marsh and Richard Harland, over 2000 elephant between them on control work, both Mannlichers

Discuss ?
best


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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #287608 - 09/09/16 05:58 PM

And Mr Bells gear Mike?

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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #287612 - 09/09/16 07:52 PM

Quote:

Hmm, 2 camps (double and magazine)

J. Hunter, over 1000 rhino and 800 elephant on control work...pair of Holland .500s
Alan Marsh and Richard Harland, over 2000 elephant between them on control work, both Mannlichers

Discuss ?
best




I love it!! Lively discussion over push vs CRF, and now yet another controversy, double vs magazine!!!!!!!

I'll stick my neck out: I'll take the double. It negates my earlier comment where I was whining about the meagre mag capacity of the Weatherby MKV, but I'll take the two fast over the three slow any time. If it's really sticky, I'd expect things would be over pretty quick one way or the other anyway. I'm talking about hunting, not cropping.

If cropping, maybe I'd pull out a Mauser with CRF, but maybe I'd use a Remmy 700 if they could ever figure out how to drill the holes right and if that's what I had available to me..... Am I right in suggesting that even the Winchester model 70 was push feed from post '64 for some 40 years, until the most recent decade when the marketers rediscovered CRF? In truth, I'd probably choose a good Sako in appropriate caliber which in model 85 form is sort of a CRF.


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xausa
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #287615 - 09/09/16 09:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If you were stuck way out in the back of beyond in a nasty life or death situation and you had the option of a 98 or a Remington would you really take the latter with it's lack of CRF, its puny extractor and it's little spring activated button ejector - over a Mauser? Seriously?




One experience I had soured me permanently on Remingtons as serious, reliable hunting rifles. Their accuracy is beyond dispute, but if you have had, as I have, a Remington bolt handle come off in your hand during a dry firing exercise, you'll never trust one again. Then there's the question of the famous Remington safety breeching system, which controls escaping gas so well. What is never mentioned is the fact that a swelled cartridge case head can lock up the action so tightly that unscrewing the barrel is the only way of removing it. Then there is the question of the trigger and its propensity to allow the rifle to fire when the safety is released.

Taken all in all, no thank you!


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DarylS
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: xausa]
      #287619 - 10/09/16 01:51 AM

But xausa, Remington is supposed to have fixed the safety fault.

The others are minor if your ammo is good.

As to the great Accuracy, I'm not sure that holds much water. Back in the early 80's, a close friend of mine complained to Remington that his .338 M700 would barely do 3 1/2" with ANY factory ammo & his handloads would only get just under 2", but not 1 1/2".

He mailed it back to the Remington with that note, they sent it back with covering letter in separate mail and somewhere in route after crossing the border back into Canada - the rifle went missing. Friend I got his money back in insurance.

Remington's note said the rifle tested well under their maximum grouping capability of 5" at 100 yards & therefore there was noting wrong with it. Since my friend will not own a rifle that will not group an inch under for 5 shots with handloads, he will never own another Remmy.


The letter really upset him - 5"? I know other fellows with Remington 700's of different calibres that shoot well - I have one in a .22-250 26" Varmint that is quite accurate and off bags runs in the 3/8" to .4" range for 5 shots. My bipod groups open to 1/2" for 5 (not sure why), and run 3/8" or smaller for 3 shot groups. I thought it should do better than that off the bipod but it does not.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: DarylS]
      #287620 - 10/09/16 03:09 AM

Gryphon, he was there very early, elephants not used to rifles, hunting in open terrain. A very good marksman but Bell would not have used a 7x57 if in control work methinks otherwise i'm not sure he would have lived to write a book. Forgot Fletcher as well, pair of .577 's but he was a big bloke, best

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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #287621 - 10/09/16 04:02 AM

I have Bells "wanderings" Mike..I was simply raising the fact that the bloke used the bolt rifles.

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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: xausa]
      #287623 - 10/09/16 06:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If you were stuck way out in the back of beyond in a nasty life or death situation and you had the option of a 98 or a Remington would you really take the latter with it's lack of CRF, its puny extractor and it's little spring activated button ejector - over a Mauser? Seriously?




One experience I had soured me permanently on Remingtons as serious, reliable hunting rifles. Their accuracy is beyond dispute, but if you have had, as I have, a Remington bolt handle come off in your hand during a dry firing exercise, you'll never trust one again. Then there's the question of the famous Remington safety breeching system, which controls escaping gas so well. What is never mentioned is the fact that a swelled cartridge case head can lock up the action so tightly that unscrewing the barrel is the only way of removing it. Then there is the question of the trigger and its propensity to allow the rifle to fire when the safety is released.

Taken all in all, no thank you!




Yup. The design being a bastardized form of the M98 sans CRF is basically not a bad design at all, enabling modular mass production in staggering volumes. However and it's a big however, the care that goes into assembling these things is beyond dismal... I've literally experienced the scope base holes completely off centre and running diagonally across the top of the action. I have also experienced another whereby the bolt face machining was thoroughly buggered. The little spring steel circlip extractor was loose and flopping around in a lovely spacious groove that was supposed to be a precisely machined slot. That particular rifle would not extract rounds at all and had to go back for a total rifle replacement. Accuracy has been anywhere from astounding to mediocre in my experience. These things are built with no regard whatsoever to the engineering / design specs, and therefore do not grace my vault with the exception of an old 760 pump rifle that time has proven to be both accurate and utterly reliable...

I once loaded a VERY hot round in a 7mm Rem Mag mod 700 and froze the bolt closed - obviously my fault and in no way the fault of the rifle. I beat it with a piece of firewood to open it but the braised on handle stayed on just fine. That cheesy little extractor circlip made of hardened spring steel worked as intended and was effective enough to pull right through the brass rim of the stuck case, demonstrating how truly strong those little buggers are when properly constructed..... (I dare say, maybe even stronger than some of the claw extractors out there that have on some occasions broken off at the bend which I have personally experienced). That rifle had to go to a gun smith that used a stuck case extractor tool to fix up the rifle, and same smith gave me a proper beating for being such a reloading idiot in the first place ( side note : my hand loading skills have improved dramatically over the decades since that holy shit moment of foolishness)

So, I do believe that the Remington model 700 is truly a masterful and potentially highly accurate and reliable design, incorporating all manner of cost cutting measures and selling at a price point that brings a fine shooting rifle to the masses..... Now if they would actually take the proper time and due care in building them properly and as per design intent, we'd really be on to something. But I do agree that most all Remington products fall far short of the mark.... Even the ammo is crap. The only misfire I ever had from factory ammo in all the years I've been shooting was a .30-60 round that sort of popped and fizzled powder out of the end of the barrel instead of going bang like all good cartridges should.

So, I've now slagged Remington a good deal, but putting the quality issues aside, is CRF imperative if one knows how to operate the bolt properly? One should NEVER encounter a round in the chamber and be trying to jack one in behind it.... Operator error!!!!! I've jammed up a CRF rifle for that matter, failing to open up the bolt properly to throw the old casing clear and having the rifle partially clinging to a stovepiped case with another round commencing forward movement but unable to pop in behind the claw...... Lesson learned by me when I was a much younger man: operate the damn equipment properly whatever its operating parameters may be. As long as it's properly built, one should not have issues.

Not looking to offend anyone here, but I am genuinely interested in the rich dialogue. I've recently spent an obscene amount of money ordering up a beautiful shiny new .416 Rigby, in, yes, you guessed it, a CRF design.

Edited by Postman (10/09/16 06:50 AM)


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287624 - 10/09/16 06:43 AM

So here's a question: is the discussion here that push feed is bad, or is it that the Remmy circlip extractor is bad?

Curiosity seriously took hold of me and after a brief trip to my vault, I have observed that both my Sako mod 75 as well as my one remaining Weatherby MK V are both full on push feeds, but both have a claw extractor, substantially more significant looking than the near invisible Remington circlip extractor. Both these rifles feed like butter and give me great confidence and I have no fear of piling a second cartridge into an already occupied chamber. My Sako mod 85 did accompany me on a DG hunt as my backup rifle and it's merely an "almost" CRF with a claw extractor. (I hunted with a rimmed cartridge double rifle)


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DarylS
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287635 - 10/09/16 10:20 AM

Just thought I should mention this at this stage of the event.

Last spring (May) I bought a 35 year old box of .330 Win. Mag. 180gr. Core Lokt Sp's from a friend - $20.00 - dollar each - good deal for me.

A couple days ago I got round to testing them as I was already zero'd 1 1/2" high at 100 meters and zero'd at 200 with the Winchester 180-gr. Bonded bullet.

The RP's put up 3 that almost touched, 3" high, giving me a zero of 265 approximately. I was surprised by the accuracy, but this push feed Browning "A" bolt with 26" pipe has shown to shoot fairly well and with a variety of ammo.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: DarylS]
      #287638 - 10/09/16 11:10 AM

That's great accuracy out of both rifle and ammo. Maybe that '06 fizzle round that I experienced was a bad luck fluke, but it sure frustrated me and when combined with some rifle QC issues I was also in the midst of experiencing at the time has driven me to condemn the lot. Yes. I admit I am being both unfair and highly prejudicial which Daryls experience would point out is wrong minded......

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DarylS
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287643 - 10/09/16 11:56 AM

Then one looks at the Marlins that came out directly after Remington bought out Marlin and fired all the old Marlin staff - having their 'other' workers' make the lever actioned Marlins.

They were horrid - ill fitted, with many failing to function properly. They are better now, a couple years later, but still not up to snuff with what was coming out of the original Marlin Plant - in my honest opinion.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287672 - 11/09/16 07:30 AM

Quote:

So here's a question: is the discussion here that push feed is bad, or is it that the Remmy circlip extractor is bad?




That is another point, I do strongly prefer the large reliable extractor of the M98.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #287673 - 11/09/16 07:32 AM

Quote:

Gryphon, he was there very early, elephants not used to rifles, hunting in open terrain. A very good marksman but Bell would not have used a 7x57 if in control work methinks otherwise i'm not sure he would have lived to write a book. Forgot Fletcher as well, pair of .577 's but he was a big bloke, best




Bell actually used the .318 WR M98 later in life for most of his elephant hunting.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Waidmannsheil
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: NitroX]
      #287888 - 15/09/16 09:21 PM

Maybe something like this should be the greatest rifle ever made. I have often thought that a Double Square bridge Mauser action and bolt together with a Schoenauer rotary spool and a Winchester Model 70 trigger and safety would be the ultimate bolt action rifle. Interesting article anyway.

http://www.classicarmsjournal.com/the-mauserlicher-rifle/

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
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Waidmannsheil
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #287892 - 15/09/16 10:17 PM

I would also include a Oberndorf type floor plate and a Model 70 post 67 type anti-bind rail.

Waidmannsheil.

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Ripp
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: NitroX]
      #287894 - 15/09/16 10:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

So here's a question: is the discussion here that push feed is bad, or is it that the Remmy circlip extractor is bad?




That is another point, I do strongly prefer the large reliable extractor of the M98.




Ironically I just read an article in the latest issue of GUNS AND AMMO regarding push vs controlled round feed. The article suggested several advantages and disadvantages for both. Some are as follows. It did suggest that the controlled round does not feed the newer shorter fatter cases as well as a push feed..states by design the mauser was designed initially for longer thinner cases..it stated that if there is an issue with a push feed as to doubling up when you slam another round into the chamber that 99% of the time this is more an issue of the magazine holding the rounds instead of the action itself. One should not fault a type of action for a poorly done or tuned magazine. Stated that one shear example of reliability is that nearly 100% of the sniper rifles used in the military are push feed vs controlled round feed stating this is truly hunting "dangerous game" that can shoot back..Finally stated that to remedy the situation as to feeding both types are adopting the detachable clip which allows only 1 round to move forward therefore allowing a more direct approach to the chamber and impossible to double feed..

I may or may not have gotten this all correct as its from memory..which mine is not that great, unless you owe me money.. As stated earlier, I have no dog in this fight as I have both. I DO think the 98 action is amazing and probably the best ever designed. I will admit however 90% of my hunting has been with push feed and have never had an issue after shooting literally thousands of rounds..one day it may..hopefully not while I am hunting dangerous game..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (16/09/16 12:55 AM)


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287896 - 16/09/16 02:36 AM

Interesting commentary on the military's almost exclusive use of controlled round feed. Maybe someone forgot to tell the US military about that. Many conflicts saw the issuance of Remington model 700s to the American sniper teams if I have my facts right and my memory is not too terribly flawed.

I too have no dog in this fight. I use 'em both and I've personally not experienced screw ups with either once I figured out how to operate each of them properly. Funny. The Sako TRG is a common choice for both military and police of many nations. It's got a great looking extractor but I'll be damned if I even know if it's push or CRF!! It never much occurred to me to look close enough to make that determination. Mine functions well and has yet to jam on me after much use. I guess i just don't care either way as long as a given rifle works reliably for me. The marketers (again those damn pushy loud slippery marketers) would have me believe that if it isn't CRF, my life is in imminent danger so I better dump my Weattherby DG rifles and all my other push feed rifles and go buy their newfangled rifle that by golly has CRF. Best trash all those push feed Winchester model 70s sold for about four decades after 1964 while we're at it.

Now, I'm going back to the bar and continue my wait for my Heym (with CRF) to be built and delivered 😀

Edited by Postman (16/09/16 04:49 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287899 - 16/09/16 04:14 AM

Quote:

Interesting commentary on the military's almost exclusive use of controlled round feed. Maybe someone forgot to tell the US military about that. Many conflicts saw the issuance of Remington model 700s to the American sniper teams if I have my facts right and my memory is not too terribly flawed.

I too have no dog in this fight. I use 'em both and I've personally not experienced screw ups with either once I figured out how to operate each of them properly. Funny. The Sako TRG is a common choice for both military and police of many nations. It's got a great looking extractor but I'll be damned if I even know if it's push or CRF!! It never much occurred to me to look close enough to make that determination. Mine functions well and has yet to jam on me after much use. I guess i just don't care either way as long as a given rifle works reliably for me. The marketers (again those damn pushy loud slippery marketers) would have me believe that if it isn't CRF, my life is in imminent danger so I better dump my Weattherby DG rifles and all my other push feed rifles and go buy their newfangled rifle that by golly has CRF. Best trash all those Winchester model 70s sold for about four decades after 1964 while we're at it.

Now, I'm going back to the bar and continue my wait for my Heym (with CRF) to be built and delivered 😀




I as well have a TRG-42 in 338 Lapua..great weapon..as to push or controlled see info shown below..

http://www.sako.fi/rifles/sako-trg/trg-42

BTW--congrats on the new Heym..great choice..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (16/09/16 04:16 AM)


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287900 - 16/09/16 04:46 AM

My current TRG is in .308 with ragged one hole group capability at 100 metres. My first was a .338 Lapua. My current range only offers 300 metres and the Lapua was so accurate with so much reach, it became boring spending time with it. Seriously. They both accurately shoot far beyond my personal shooting capabilities.

Anyhow, yes, I ordered the Heym Express rifle in .416 Rigby I guess it's been a couple of months ago now. Up until now I've NEVER spent this kind of money on a bolt gun of all things, nor would I have ever even remotely considered it, but after some considerable exposure to their doubles, something snapped inside me and I just had to have one. I pray the thing is accurate. It will be utterly heartbreaking if it turns out to disappoint in the accuracy department. I suppose time will tell, but it's too late now. The money's been spent. It's kind of like the heart stressing trepidation I felt ordering a bespoke double and hoping beyond all hope that it was well regulated.... Once that money is out the door, it's a used gun depreciated considerably from the moment is was sold new. I've had a couple of doubles that I relinquished after experiencing less than impressive regulation, and that is an expensive game to play indeed. The Heyms have been great though, I must say.

Edited by Postman (16/09/16 04:52 AM)


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lonewulf
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287912 - 16/09/16 10:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

So here's a question: is the discussion here that push feed is bad, or is it that the Remmy circlip extractor is bad?




That is another point, I do strongly prefer the large reliable extractor of the M98.




Ironically I just read an article in the latest issue of GUNS AND AMMO regarding push vs controlled round feed. The article suggested several advantages and disadvantages for both. Some are as follows. It did suggest that the controlled round does not feed the newer shorter fatter cases as well as a push feed..states by design the mauser was designed initially for longer thinner cases..it stated that if there is an issue with a push feed as to doubling up when you slam another round into the chamber that 99% of the time this is more an issue of the magazine holding the rounds instead of the action itself. One should not fault a type of action for a poorly done or tuned magazine. Stated that one shear example of reliability is that nearly 100% of the sniper rifles used in the military are push feed vs controlled round feed stating this is truly hunting "dangerous game" that can shoot back..Finally stated that to remedy the situation as to feeding both types are adopting the detachable clip which allows only 1 round to move forward therefore allowing a more direct approach to the chamber and impossible to double feed..

I may or may not have gotten this all correct as its from memory..which mine is not that great, unless you owe me money.. As stated earlier, I have no dog in this fight as I have both. I DO think the 98 action is amazing and probably the best ever designed. I will admit however 90% of my hunting has been with push feed and have never had an issue after shooting literally thousands of rounds..one day it may..hopefully not while I am hunting dangerous game..

Ripp





As previously stated, I believe a PRF bolt action is suitable or at least, adequate, for most hunting situations. However, at the point where it's being suggested that a 'pushy' is no better or worse than a Mauser for the hunting of DG, then we are potentially endangering lives.

Sniping at someone hundreds or even a thousand or more meters distant isn't the same thing as facing DG at 20-30 meters in scrub jungle. The immediacy of the threat is entirely different. In the second scenarios you simply cannot afford to have a malfunction, whether that happens to be caused by a mechanical problem or human error. A PRF action has all the potential for a giant cock-up in such circumstances. If the stress of the situation gets to the hunter and he short-strokes a round into the action and then inadvertently attempts to chamber another he's in very serious trouble. If, at this point, he doesn't have a reliable individual to back him up, he may well be dead. Anyone who claims with any degree of certainty that this situation couldn't happen to them is just a fool.

There are few real certainties in life but one of them just happens to be that the Mauser 98 is the best bolt action ever made.


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #287916 - 16/09/16 12:12 PM

Hi Lonewulf:

Your passion is both admirable and noteworthy...... Agreed that under stress, people do strange things, whether it be short stroking a push feed or cycling a CRF bolt 5 times, forgetting to pull the trigger and having 5 unfired cartridges hurled in the mud. Ultimately, if it takes CRF to save people from themselves then so be it but I do believe that you can't truly save people from themselves, and you can't fix stupid. People will do all manner of weird things under pressure no matter how much technology or design work one throws at it. I think the statistics would be in your favour suggesting more people would have a higher tendency to short stroke as a human design fault, so we need to design our DG rifles, i.e. Mauser for the lowest common human denominator, no matter how pitiful that may be. In any event, I don't think there is a better all time rifle design than the Mauser. Most modern bolt guns as has been previously noted share that fundamental lineage.

Respectfully,

Postman

Edited by Postman (16/09/16 12:29 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287920 - 16/09/16 12:50 PM

Quote:

Hi Lonewulf:

Your passion is both admirable and noteworthy...... Agreed that under stress, people do strange things, whether it be short stroking a push feed or cycling a CRF bolt 5 times, forgetting to pull the trigger and having 5 unfired cartridges hurled in the mud. Ultimately, if it takes CRF to save people from themselves then so be it but I do believe that you can't truly save people from themselves, and you can't fix stupid. People will do all manner of weird things under pressure no matter how much technology or design work one throws at it. I think the statistics would be in your favour suggesting more people would have a higher tendency to short stroke as a human design fault, so we need to design our DG rifles, i.e. Mauser for the lowest common human denominator, no matter how pitiful that may be. In any event, I don't think there is a better all time rifle design than the Mauser. Most modern bolt guns as has been previously noted share that fundamental lineage.

Respectfully,

Postman




Agree--and as I have both seen and talked to those who have had issues, controlled round is far from fool proof. One of the most infamous incidents I can think of is a local booking agent in this area who is known worldwide for both their business and hunting exploits. He and his wife were hunting buffalo in Zim..wife wounded a bull..they went in the following morning..wife shot, tried to get another round in the chamber, rifle jammed, buff hit wife..wife spent 6 months in hospitals both in Africa, Europe and US..one issue pointed out in the article is, especially with the short fat cases, you need to pull the bolt all the way to the rear to get the empty case ejected which is causing some jamming issues..the other is on my Mauser type action I can't just go ahead and drop a live round in the chamber and slam it shut..has to first go in the magazine..again probably based on what I have used the most. but I am much quicker doing in with a push feed..

Each to their own but I have hunted lion, leopard, elephant, hippo, buffalo and an entire host of other not so dangerous species with a good old Remington custom shop .416..no issues and frankly even though I have 3 controlled round feeds in the safe, will probably keep using it ..if you feel safer using a controlled, by all means go ahead..have to use what you are comfortable with ..after all its still kind of a free world..


Ripp

--------------------
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lonewulf
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287921 - 16/09/16 01:18 PM



Hey, guys, I'm not suggesting the 98 is the only rifle worth a damn. There are plenty of non-Mauser derived rifles out there and most of them are pretty good.

But if the question is: "which is the greatest [bolt action] ever made", I think it would be ridiculous, at least IMO, to suggest that rifle would be a Rem 700.

However, if you actually believe that is in fact the case, that the Rem is indeed the 'greatest', I'd then have to ask you to point out the features of that design that make it a better action than the 98.


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Rule303
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #287929 - 16/09/16 07:13 PM

Quote:



Hey, guys, I'm not suggesting the 98 is the only rifle worth a damn. There are plenty of non-Mauser derived rifles out there and most of them are pretty good.

But if the question is: "which is the greatest [bolt action] ever made", I think it would be ridiculous, at least IMO, to suggest that rifle would be a Rem 700.

However, if you actually believe that is in fact the case, that the Rem is indeed the 'greatest', I'd then have to ask you to point out the features of that design that make it a better action than the 98.




Well what you ask is very open. What one person thinks/believes is good another may not.

For years I would not have a CRF, other than a Lee Enfield. I my younger years I saw or was involved with several CRF, mainly M98's, that failed. Double feeds, dropping the fired case back into the action before it got to the ejectors among other issues. I seriously questioned the sanity of those who said you needed CRF for DG.

In later years I started using CRF, the Ruger M77 Mk2 etc left me less then impressed, Winchester M70 still leaves me cold. I do like the CZ550, P14/M17 and an old VZ24. They work like a bolt action should work. All this is subjective so it would be hard give a definitive answer IMHO.

I have 3, what I would call DG Calibres. 416 Rigby, 375H&H, 358RUM-I did say what I would call . 2 are CRF and one is PF. I would feel confident taking any after DG.

So each to their own and enjoy what ever you chose to use.


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #287935 - 16/09/16 11:46 PM

Quote:



Hey, guys, I'm not suggesting the 98 is the only rifle worth a damn. There are plenty of non-Mauser derived rifles out there and most of them are pretty good.

But if the question is: "which is the greatest [bolt action] ever made", I think it would be ridiculous, at least IMO, to suggest that rifle would be a Rem 700.

However, if you actually believe that is in fact the case, that the Rem is indeed the 'greatest', I'd then have to ask you to point out the features of that design that make it a better action than the 98.




So let's go back and review the entire thread and all the statements made therein. I think it was my initial comment designed to (successfully) instigate a riot that claimed CRF was marketing hype and even a Remmy 700 push feed will cycle upside down. Nobody EVER claimed a Remmy 700 was the best. The 700 took arguably the world's best design, the M98 Mauser and bastardized it to be modular, cost effective, and mass production friendly. At it's best, the 700 is an ingenious and reliable platform that works extremely well, one that offends the senses of the M98 purists, and the 700 is far too often plagued with build issues on the assembly line. The M98 itself is not without faults either though, and some of these are directly inherent in its design. It weakens one of the locking lugs by machining a slot through the middle of it for the ejector, and the gas handling capabilities from a ruptured primer are well short of perfect.

I have seen limited DG hunting, but I equipped myself with a double as my primary firearm, backup rifle being a Sako push feed in .375.... I am comfortable with the Sako and the caliber was a hedge on lost ammo courtesy of the airline.

Some context: professionally I am an IT guy specializing in infrastructure in general and networking in particular associated with the very large global banks and their high availability systems, an environment that is intolerant of outages or service interruption of any kind. What we know is that the basic question is not "if" hardware will fail, but "when" it will fail, so we design around this with diversity and redundancy. Another irrefutable given is that software is always buggy and as a general rule becomes more stable over time as fixes are applied.

Why the context? Well, the parallel is that the double rifle is the highly available fully diverse and redundant hardware and of course the hunter is the software. The bolt rifle is not a high av system but can be made very well indeed, whether it be push feed or CRF, of it can be made very poorly in either format. The software again, is the hunter. I can short stroke a push feed, and I can stove pipe a CRF if I am buggy. I can use either to great effect if I do my part.

The key here is to do your part and use a well maintained, tried and true rifle. That could be a properly built model 700. Make sure you don't let the circlip extractor clog up with rust and crud over many years of neglect, and it will serve you well, because as offensive as that design is to the Mauser 98 purist, it is pure evil genius and incredibly strong, reliable and effective. On the flip side, make sure your CRF extractor claw is also properly built, correctly tuned and timed, and well maintained, and not to forget, operate it properly, lest it bugger up into a colossal jam as well.

We can't fix stupid. If the software is really buggy, one can't hope to see either form of bolt rifle be dependable. In good hands, a well executed rifle of any M98 persuasion in either push feed or CRF format is a truly remarkable rifle. Surely from a pedigree perspective, the M98 is a peerless design in all of its many renditions and to me that includes a well executed push feed.

To say that a CRF is the only way, is at least to me, still driven by marketers wanting a new gimmick to push rifles out the door. I'd rather have in my hands a well executed push feed than a poorly done CRF any day of the week. I will not short stroke mine no matter how high the stress level. I've learned how to operate it properly.

Of note, I've not played with these relatively new generation Winchesters to pass judgement on them, however, back in the 70s when I was most close to them, they as I recall were of typical assembly line build, fit, and finish. Nothing to get excited about in the quality or accuracy dept, and they were at the time push feed. My uneducated thought is that Winchesters are still of average mediocre build quality and accuracy, but now they come with CRF, and according to the marketing hype, we should toss all of our push feeds and rush out and buy one of them lest we lose our life over it...... Really?

Winchester made a bunch of CRF noise, and it wasn't long before a bunch of other companies jumped on that bandwagon. "Heaven help us if we lose market share". OMG, a fate worse than death if we too don't come out with our own CRF..... Let's capitalize on the notion that folks will die if they don't have CRF...... Again, REALLY??




Edited by Postman (17/09/16 12:50 AM)


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lonewulf
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287948 - 17/09/16 09:30 AM


I've never hunted DG and probably never will. There are a number of reasons for that but typically these fall into one of two categories, financial and ethical. I simply mention this because others have commented on there own personal experience of which I have none.

If I were to engage in DG hunting I'd want to carry either a double or a Mauser. When I say Mauser I mean an action incorporating all the safety features found in the 98, rather than something necessarily built by the Company. So a Brno, for example, in an appropriate caliber would do just fine - assuming it functioned correctly of course.

If it were a double it would have to be what I would describe as a 'proper double' and by that I means two separate ejectors, separate locks etc. Essentially two complete rifles joined together and sharing a common stock.

So basically I'd want a firearm that, should the shit hit the fan, gave me as much of a safety buffer as possible without detracting from the classical nature of the hunt.

One the subject of supposed Mauser system failings, yes, the split lug probably isn't as good as a solid one but as far as I'm aware this is mostly theoretical. The gas issue again is, as far as I know, theoretical. Although some other actions may handle gas better (?), the Mauser 98 does it better than most and certainly as well or better than any of its contemporaries.

The Rem 700 may well, as you say, cycle successfully in an inverted state BUT, is that actually a relevant consideration? A Mauser may well function perfectly while submerged in heavy crude but again, is that relevant? And if your Mauser system rifle is 'stove piping' as you say, I'd suggest it's malfunctioning (as all mechanical things tend to do sooner or later) and in need of some urgent remedial action. Properly functioning Mauser action rifles don't stove pipe in my experience.

As an IT guy I'm sure you'd agree that, as mentioned above, mechanical systems will usually fail sooner or later. And as a spring operated button ejector is inherently more prone to failure (on a number of grounds) than a non-mechanical fixed blade, why would you knowingly put your life on the line and elect to take the former over the latter. Similarly, we know that short-stroking can leave you with a completely inoperable firearm, often at the most inopportune moment. So again, why would you knowingly take that risk when you don't have too? The problem of short stroking was solved for the most part with the development of the non-rotating claw extractor so why not take advantage of the development and potentially save your own life? Sure, you can hunt DG with a flintlock if you want and you may well get away with it too, if you keep the thing well maintained etc, BUT, the potential for system failure is even higher than the potential cock-ups that could happen with a push feed action [although perhaps only marginally so ]

And finally, as you allude in your comment, the push feed action has one major advantage and that is cost. I don't know what Remington spend to produce their push feed actions but I'd guess something less than a third of what it costs to produce a Mauser clone. That, if I'm correct, is a significant difference, if you're just using the rifle to shoot vermin but probably worth every penny when hunting DG under conditions of great emotional stress. But as you say, you can't fix stupid.


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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #287949 - 17/09/16 09:47 AM

Ah we must stop and ponder the men that walked before us..they just grabbed a rifle went out and "did it" without the hoo haa!

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Rule303
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287951 - 17/09/16 04:04 PM

Gryph, spot on. Plenty of DG shot using push feed as well as CRF.

Lonewolf the reference to a 700 cycling inverted was brought about by a few M98 one eyed supports claiming CRF would cycle upside down and PF would not. Buggered if I know why you would want to do it.

So far Rem make the claim not to have had a 700 action fail, yes barrels have gone down range but the action has held, bolt has not come back at the shooter even with massive overloads. Action might be stuffed but it has not failed. Not so with M98.

Gas handling, I am no expert in this area. However those who do or should know claim the Savage 110 based actions and the 700 are designed to handle escaping gas and do it well. Apparently none of the other US designed rifles are as well designed for this. This includes the Ruger 77 and Win M70. Take the Rem extractor out of a 700 and replace it with a Sako style extractor and you have just nutted the 700. Gas handling goes out the door and pieces of bolt can and have come back at the shooter. The Sako style extractor is weaker than the 700's all things being in top order.

You can short stroke a M98 and have a foul up. This includes rechambering the empty and trying to fire what the person believes is a live round. Produces some very entertaining moments on a range. This is actually less likely with a PF.

Also the 700 is a descendant of the P14/M17 action, yes this was close to the M98.

No to be sacrilegious. Double Rifles are not bee all of DG armaments. They can and do fail. From an old African hand. Open and close one in long grass covered in dust/dirt. Unless you cover it there is chances are you won't be able to get it closed. Dust will have entered the action to prevent it closing properly. Same if for what ever reason you manage to drop it while reloading.

There is a saying that some of the graves in the Nairobi cemetery wouldn't be there if the person was using a double rifle, probably true. Also it is said there are graves there that wouldn't be if the person had been using a bolt gun instead of a double.

Like I said. Choose the system/rifle you wont, go use it.


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Rule303]
      #287956 - 17/09/16 11:22 PM

Rule & Gryph:

Spot on!!!! Run what cha brung!!!!! Be comfy with it. Know how to use it. Technical discussions are interesting theory but it's the practical application of anything that separates the men from the boys. I love my double, but I cry bullshit if one thinks it is "the" answer. I don't give it mud baths but if I did, I am painfully aware that it wouldn't close and it would be no more useful than a caveman's club......

Lonewulf: you are spot on as well. Give one's self every advantage that one can. Use the technology in the form you are most comfortable with. Avoid outright design faults and shortcomings where possible yet appreciating some features are mutually exclusive and most things in life are a compromise of one sort or another. And take care of your gear and maintain it properly so it will function when needed.

When was the last time anyone ever shot a push feed upside down anyway even though it will indeed work that way? My colt .45 will actually shoot underwater as per the US Army field trials pre WWI but who would ever do it????

This is absolutely the greatest forum and participant members on the Web by a wide margin and I am absolutely honoured to be able to engage with everyone in such a respectful and intruiging way.

Edited by Postman (17/09/16 11:33 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #287963 - 18/09/16 05:41 AM

Quote:



Hey, guys, I'm not suggesting the 98 is the only rifle worth a damn. There are plenty of non-Mauser derived rifles out there and most of them are pretty good.

But if the question is: "which is the greatest [bolt action] ever made", I think it would be ridiculous, at least IMO, to suggest that rifle would be a Rem 700.

However, if you actually believe that is in fact the case, that the Rem is indeed the 'greatest', I'd then have to ask you to point out the features of that design that make it a better action than the 98.




Sorry if I was not clear in my post. The LAST thing I am suggesting is that the Remington is as good or even in the class of the 98..NO it is not..All I am saying is NO action is perfect IMHO. They all have good and bad issues..just that the Mauser probably has the least number of bad attributes.. and is probably as close to perfection we will ever see.

I do think as to actions, the design of the Remington has lended itself to be a very inherently accurate action type and as such, one of the reasons so many custom shops in the past had used it in custom rifles..I have several rifles made years ago where the only thing Remington of it is the action..everything else about the rifle is non-remington..but man do they shoot...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287964 - 18/09/16 06:01 AM

Why is it after so many years since the `98 was born that there hasnt been another action made/invented that is 'perfect' is it because there isnt such a thing to be made?
If so then it simply points to the `98 as the GOAT to be had.
I pondered this thread yesterday as I carried my 358 NM `98 up a ferny gully to check a wallow cam and looked down at it thinking "you`ll never fail me"

She doesn't shine,is taped up,wears a second class synthetic stock,she`s scratched and outside is worn and has a fair bit of bark off her but she shoots so well and wont fail!

Long live the King! King `98!



--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4907
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287989 - 18/09/16 07:03 PM

Gryph, well said and I can say the same for my N05 Jungle carbine and Win M94. Your 358NM I like. Hard worn rifles that speak of age and use have what I call character.

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Rule303]
      #287995 - 19/09/16 01:29 AM

Quote:

Gryph, well said and I can say the same for my N05 Jungle carbine and Win M94. Your 358NM I like. Hard worn rifles that speak of age and use have what I call character.




Agreed--and the stories that come with the hard worn use..

If only at times you could sit along the fire, drink in hand and let them talk...


Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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