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Hmm, 2 camps (double and magazine)

J. Hunter, over 1000 rhino and 800 elephant on control work...pair of Holland .500s
Alan Marsh and Richard Harland, over 2000 elephant between them on control work, both Mannlichers

Discuss ?
best

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If you were stuck way out in the back of beyond in a nasty life or death situation and you had the option of a 98 or a Remington would you really take the latter with it's lack of CRF, its puny extractor and it's little spring activated button ejector - over a Mauser? Seriously?

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One experience I had soured me permanently on Remingtons as serious, reliable hunting rifles. Their accuracy is beyond dispute, but if you have had, as I have, a Remington bolt handle come off in your hand during a dry firing exercise, you'll never trust one again. Then there's the question of the famous Remington safety breeching system, which controls escaping gas so well. What is never mentioned is the fact that a swelled cartridge case head can lock up the action so tightly that unscrewing the barrel is the only way of removing it. Then there is the question of the trigger and its propensity to allow the rifle to fire when the safety is released.

Taken all in all, no thank you!

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If you were stuck way out in the back of beyond in a nasty life or death situation and you had the option of a 98 or a Remington would you really take the latter with it's lack of CRF, its puny extractor and it's little spring activated button ejector - over a Mauser? Seriously?

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One experience I had soured me permanently on Remingtons as serious, reliable hunting rifles. Their accuracy is beyond dispute, but if you have had, as I have, a Remington bolt handle come off in your hand during a dry firing exercise, you'll never trust one again. Then there's the question of the famous Remington safety breeching system, which controls escaping gas so well. What is never mentioned is the fact that a swelled cartridge case head can lock up the action so tightly that unscrewing the barrel is the only way of removing it. Then there is the question of the trigger and its propensity to allow the rifle to fire when the safety is released.

Taken all in all, no thank you!

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Yup. The design being a bastardized form of the M98 sans CRF is basically not a bad design at all, enabling modular mass production in staggering volumes. However and it's a big however, the care that goes into assembling these things is beyond dismal... I've literally experienced the scope base holes completely off centre and running diagonally across the top of the action. I have also experienced another whereby the bolt face machining was thoroughly buggered. The little spring steel circlip extractor was loose and flopping around in a lovely spacious groove that was supposed to be a precisely machined slot. That particular rifle would not extract rounds at all and had to go back for a total rifle replacement. Accuracy has been anywhere from astounding to mediocre in my experience. These things are built with no regard whatsoever to the engineering / design specs, and therefore do not grace my vault with the exception of an old 760 pump rifle that time has proven to be both accurate and utterly reliable...

I once loaded a VERY hot round in a 7mm Rem Mag mod 700 and froze the bolt closed - obviously my fault and in no way the fault of the rifle. I beat it with a piece of firewood to open it but the braised on handle stayed on just fine. That cheesy little extractor circlip made of hardened spring steel worked as intended and was effective enough to pull right through the brass rim of the stuck case, demonstrating how truly strong those little buggers are when properly constructed..... (I dare say, maybe even stronger than some of the claw extractors out there that have on some occasions broken off at the bend which I have personally experienced). That rifle had to go to a gun smith that used a stuck case extractor tool to fix up the rifle, and same smith gave me a proper beating for being such a reloading idiot in the first place ( side note : my hand loading skills have improved dramatically over the decades since that holy shit moment of foolishness)

So, I do believe that the Remington model 700 is truly a masterful and potentially highly accurate and reliable design, incorporating all manner of cost cutting measures and selling at a price point that brings a fine shooting rifle to the masses..... Now if they would actually take the proper time and due care in building them properly and as per design intent, we'd really be on to something. But I do agree that most all Remington products fall far short of the mark.... Even the ammo is crap. The only misfire I ever had from factory ammo in all the years I've been shooting was a .30-60 round that sort of popped and fizzled powder out of the end of the barrel instead of going bang like all good cartridges should.

So, I've now slagged Remington a good deal, but putting the quality issues aside, is CRF imperative if one knows how to operate the bolt properly? One should NEVER encounter a round in the chamber and be trying to jack one in behind it.... Operator error!!!!! I've jammed up a CRF rifle for that matter, failing to open up the bolt properly to throw the old casing clear and having the rifle partially clinging to a stovepiped case with another round commencing forward movement but unable to pop in behind the claw...... Lesson learned by me when I was a much younger man: operate the damn equipment properly whatever its operating parameters may be. As long as it's properly built, one should not have issues.

Not looking to offend anyone here, but I am genuinely interested in the rich dialogue. I've recently spent an obscene amount of money ordering up a beautiful shiny new .416 Rigby, in, yes, you guessed it, a CRF design.

Edited by Postman (10/09/16 06:50 AM)

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So here's a question: is the discussion here that push feed is bad, or is it that the Remmy circlip extractor is bad?

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That is another point, I do strongly prefer the large reliable extractor of the M98.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Gryphon, he was there very early, elephants not used to rifles, hunting in open terrain. A very good marksman but Bell would not have used a 7x57 if in control work methinks otherwise i'm not sure he would have lived to write a book. Forgot Fletcher as well, pair of .577 's but he was a big bloke, best

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Bell actually used the .318 WR M98 later in life for most of his elephant hunting.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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So here's a question: is the discussion here that push feed is bad, or is it that the Remmy circlip extractor is bad?

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That is another point, I do strongly prefer the large reliable extractor of the M98.

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Ironically I just read an article in the latest issue of GUNS AND AMMO regarding push vs controlled round feed. The article suggested several advantages and disadvantages for both. Some are as follows. It did suggest that the controlled round does not feed the newer shorter fatter cases as well as a push feed..states by design the mauser was designed initially for longer thinner cases..it stated that if there is an issue with a push feed as to doubling up when you slam another round into the chamber that 99% of the time this is more an issue of the magazine holding the rounds instead of the action itself. One should not fault a type of action for a poorly done or tuned magazine. Stated that one shear example of reliability is that nearly 100% of the sniper rifles used in the military are push feed vs controlled round feed stating this is truly hunting "dangerous game" that can shoot back..Finally stated that to remedy the situation as to feeding both types are adopting the detachable clip which allows only 1 round to move forward therefore allowing a more direct approach to the chamber and impossible to double feed..

I may or may not have gotten this all correct as its from memory..which mine is not that great, unless you owe me money.. As stated earlier, I have no dog in this fight as I have both. I DO think the 98 action is amazing and probably the best ever designed. I will admit however 90% of my hunting has been with push feed and have never had an issue after shooting literally thousands of rounds..one day it may..hopefully not while I am hunting dangerous game..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (16/09/16 12:55 AM)

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Interesting commentary on the military's almost exclusive use of controlled round feed. Maybe someone forgot to tell the US military about that. Many conflicts saw the issuance of Remington model 700s to the American sniper teams if I have my facts right and my memory is not too terribly flawed.

I too have no dog in this fight. I use 'em both and I've personally not experienced screw ups with either once I figured out how to operate each of them properly. Funny. The Sako TRG is a common choice for both military and police of many nations. It's got a great looking extractor but I'll be damned if I even know if it's push or CRF!! It never much occurred to me to look close enough to make that determination. Mine functions well and has yet to jam on me after much use. I guess i just don't care either way as long as a given rifle works reliably for me. The marketers (again those damn pushy loud slippery marketers) would have me believe that if it isn't CRF, my life is in imminent danger so I better dump my Weattherby DG rifles and all my other push feed rifles and go buy their newfangled rifle that by golly has CRF. Best trash all those Winchester model 70s sold for about four decades after 1964 while we're at it.

Now, I'm going back to the bar and continue my wait for my Heym (with CRF) to be built and delivered 😀

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So here's a question: is the discussion here that push feed is bad, or is it that the Remmy circlip extractor is bad?

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That is another point, I do strongly prefer the large reliable extractor of the M98.

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Ironically I just read an article in the latest issue of GUNS AND AMMO regarding push vs controlled round feed. The article suggested several advantages and disadvantages for both. Some are as follows. It did suggest that the controlled round does not feed the newer shorter fatter cases as well as a push feed..states by design the mauser was designed initially for longer thinner cases..it stated that if there is an issue with a push feed as to doubling up when you slam another round into the chamber that 99% of the time this is more an issue of the magazine holding the rounds instead of the action itself. One should not fault a type of action for a poorly done or tuned magazine. Stated that one shear example of reliability is that nearly 100% of the sniper rifles used in the military are push feed vs controlled round feed stating this is truly hunting "dangerous game" that can shoot back..Finally stated that to remedy the situation as to feeding both types are adopting the detachable clip which allows only 1 round to move forward therefore allowing a more direct approach to the chamber and impossible to double feed..

I may or may not have gotten this all correct as its from memory..which mine is not that great, unless you owe me money.. As stated earlier, I have no dog in this fight as I have both. I DO think the 98 action is amazing and probably the best ever designed. I will admit however 90% of my hunting has been with push feed and have never had an issue after shooting literally thousands of rounds..one day it may..hopefully not while I am hunting dangerous game..

Ripp

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As previously stated, I believe a PRF bolt action is suitable or at least, adequate, for most hunting situations. However, at the point where it's being suggested that a 'pushy' is no better or worse than a Mauser for the hunting of DG, then we are potentially endangering lives.

Sniping at someone hundreds or even a thousand or more meters distant isn't the same thing as facing DG at 20-30 meters in scrub jungle. The immediacy of the threat is entirely different. In the second scenarios you simply cannot afford to have a malfunction, whether that happens to be caused by a mechanical problem or human error. A PRF action has all the potential for a giant cock-up in such circumstances. If the stress of the situation gets to the hunter and he short-strokes a round into the action and then inadvertently attempts to chamber another he's in very serious trouble. If, at this point, he doesn't have a reliable individual to back him up, he may well be dead. Anyone who claims with any degree of certainty that this situation couldn't happen to them is just a fool.

There are few real certainties in life but one of them just happens to be that the Mauser 98 is the best bolt action ever made.

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Hi Lonewulf:

Your passion is both admirable and noteworthy...... Agreed that under stress, people do strange things, whether it be short stroking a push feed or cycling a CRF bolt 5 times, forgetting to pull the trigger and having 5 unfired cartridges hurled in the mud. Ultimately, if it takes CRF to save people from themselves then so be it but I do believe that you can't truly save people from themselves, and you can't fix stupid. People will do all manner of weird things under pressure no matter how much technology or design work one throws at it. I think the statistics would be in your favour suggesting more people would have a higher tendency to short stroke as a human design fault, so we need to design our DG rifles, i.e. Mauser for the lowest common human denominator, no matter how pitiful that may be. In any event, I don't think there is a better all time rifle design than the Mauser. Most modern bolt guns as has been previously noted share that fundamental lineage.

Respectfully,

Postman

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Agree--and as I have both seen and talked to those who have had issues, controlled round is far from fool proof. One of the most infamous incidents I can think of is a local booking agent in this area who is known worldwide for both their business and hunting exploits. He and his wife were hunting buffalo in Zim..wife wounded a bull..they went in the following morning..wife shot, tried to get another round in the chamber, rifle jammed, buff hit wife..wife spent 6 months in hospitals both in Africa, Europe and US..one issue pointed out in the article is, especially with the short fat cases, you need to pull the bolt all the way to the rear to get the empty case ejected which is causing some jamming issues..the other is on my Mauser type action I can't just go ahead and drop a live round in the chamber and slam it shut..has to first go in the magazine..again probably based on what I have used the most. but I am much quicker doing in with a push feed..

Each to their own but I have hunted lion, leopard, elephant, hippo, buffalo and an entire host of other not so dangerous species with a good old Remington custom shop .416..no issues and frankly even though I have 3 controlled round feeds in the safe, will probably keep using it ..if you feel safer using a controlled, by all means go ahead..have to use what you are comfortable with ..after all its still kind of a free world..


Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Hey, guys, I'm not suggesting the 98 is the only rifle worth a damn. There are plenty of non-Mauser derived rifles out there and most of them are pretty good.

But if the question is: "which is the greatest [bolt action] ever made", I think it would be ridiculous, at least IMO, to suggest that rifle would be a Rem 700.

However, if you actually believe that is in fact the case, that the Rem is indeed the 'greatest', I'd then have to ask you to point out the features of that design that make it a better action than the 98.

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Well what you ask is very open. What one person thinks/believes is good another may not.

For years I would not have a CRF, other than a Lee Enfield. I my younger years I saw or was involved with several CRF, mainly M98's, that failed. Double feeds, dropping the fired case back into the action before it got to the ejectors among other issues. I seriously questioned the sanity of those who said you needed CRF for DG.

In later years I started using CRF, the Ruger M77 Mk2 etc left me less then impressed, Winchester M70 still leaves me cold. I do like the CZ550, P14/M17 and an old VZ24. They work like a bolt action should work. All this is subjective so it would be hard give a definitive answer IMHO.

I have 3, what I would call DG Calibres. 416 Rigby, 375H&H, 358RUM-I did say what I would call . 2 are CRF and one is PF. I would feel confident taking any after DG.

So each to their own and enjoy what ever you chose to use.

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