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Ripp
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Loc: Montana, USA
What is the perfect hunting cartridge???
      #247602 - 21/05/14 06:28 AM

http://www.petersenshunting.com/2014/05/...ily+Newsletters

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Don
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Ripp]
      #247607 - 21/05/14 08:52 AM

Good article, The winners were the 375 H&H Magnum for Africa and the 338 Winchester Magnum for North America. I suspect that old 375 H&H could do double duty in both Africa and North America.

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Igorrock
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Don]
      #247615 - 21/05/14 11:37 AM

I donīt know why to make difference between .375 H&H and .338 Win Mag for North America, both are for long action. IMO .30-06 or 8x57 IS should be enough for any animal in north, even for grizzly and moose if the gun bearer could property do his work when pulling trigger. Good alternative could be .338-06 i.e. 8,5x63 which is now factory ammo in Europe.

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Ripp
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #247627 - 21/05/14 10:45 PM

Quote:

I donīt know why to make difference between .375 H&H and .338 Win Mag for North America, both are for long action. IMO .30-06 or 8x57 IS should be enough for any animal in north, even for grizzly and moose if the gun bearer could property do his work when pulling trigger. Good alternative could be .338-06 i.e. 8,5x63 which is now factory ammo in Europe.




Agree with the above--the .o6 will handle anything that walks in N America..but as your post also suggests various ideas as alternatives I chuckled to myself thinking this is why we have dozens of different calibers, everyone has various ideas on what does and does not work, or what may be a better fit for that particular hunt...

Thanks

Ripp

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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #247630 - 22/05/14 12:25 AM

Quote:

I donīt know why to make difference between .375 H&H and .338 Win Mag for North America, both are for long action. IMO .30-06 or 8x57 IS should be enough for any animal in north, even for grizzly and moose if the gun bearer could property do his work when pulling trigger. Good alternative could be .338-06 i.e. 8,5x63 which is now factory ammo in Europe.



Igorrock ,I totally agree.
Chip Hailstone of Life below Zero fame ,who I correspond with uses Finnish Mosin Nagant rifles in 7.62x53/7.62x54R (the ballistic equivalent of the 30-06)for most of his families sustenance hunting in Alaska . Chip has literally killed thousands of big game animals without an issue and he mostly uses Czech military ball ammo (I know because I asked him).Brown Bear and Polar Bear rarely need a follow up shot. Of course Chip is a most excellent marksman but again it proves "Magnun Mania" is a psychological buffer for mostly people who cant shoot .Our family has killed hundreds of head of big game in Montana and Afrika and guess what ;no magnums.

Edited by Deutsche_Vortrekker (22/05/14 12:29 AM)


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Igorrock
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #247633 - 22/05/14 01:06 AM

I have read that magnum calibers have designed, not for giving more power but longer shooting distance. On the other words, if yours shooting distances are more often like 200-250 meters, perhaps little more, are 7mm Rem Mag and .300 RemMag understandable choices. You could shoot heavier bullets with flatter trajectory which makes easier to kill bigger animals from long distance.

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DarylS
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #247634 - 22/05/14 01:15 AM

With the advent of the super premium bullets - for example, North Fork, GMX, TTSX, etc, any good hunter/shot could reliably take ANY game in North America, and quite easily too. One shot would be all that is needed - using a .243 or 6mm Rem. Of course, these 'super' bullets would only be necessary for the big bears - all else being handled with 'lesser' bullets.

What makes life more interesting, is using a variety of rifles and ctgs. - or having specific rifles for each animal we hunt, even though a variety of different cartridges aren't required.

Thus, if many 'of us' could make due with a lowly 'varmint/deer' ctg. for all NA game, most would also make due with a .308, '06 or in the Euro rounds, a 7mm or 8mm Mauser. Anything bigger is simply not needed - but - is fun. That is the reason for the plethora of rifle ctgs. today - something for everyone.

They will work perfectly, if applied appropriately.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Igorrock]
      #247637 - 22/05/14 01:31 AM

Quote:

I have read that magnum calibers have designed, not for giving more power but longer shooting distance. On the other words, if yours shooting distances are more often like 200-250 meters, perhaps little more, are 7mm Rem Mag and .300 RemMag understandable choices. You could shoot heavier bullets with flatter trajectory which makes easier to kill bigger animals from long distance.


The problem arises when the hunter with his magnum rifle cant shoot it very well .Recently at our rifle range a fellow shooting his 338 magnum from the bench shooting tiny group after tiny group. When he witnessed me zeroing my rifle from the sitting position (I almost never shoot from a benchrest) he asked me why . I replied "well ,you never see US Marines shoot from a bench and they are the best shots in the world why don't you try it" Well this guy was so bad off the bench he couldn't hit a 12"x12" target at 200 yards from any position. He was totally astounded watching me break clay pigeons laying on the berm from the standing position. I have seen this so many times.Nobody shoots from positions anymore ; they come to the range ,plop their fat asses down at a benchrest with double bags and begin to shoot. And while their rifles are most excellent ,they themselves are poor shots .The PH I use when I go hunting in Afrika makes shooters zero their rifles from shooting sticks; he has no benchrest in sight. He told me the average American cant hit an Impala at 100 meters and 1 in 20 can do it from shooting sticks .The magnum guys are by far the worst. My PH friend attributes this to Americans fascination with shooting tiny groups from the bench and neglecting their rifleman skills.

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DarylS
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #247641 - 22/05/14 01:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have read that magnum calibers have designed, not for giving more power but longer shooting distance. On the other words, if yours shooting distances are more often like 200-250 meters, perhaps little more, are 7mm Rem Mag and .300 RemMag understandable choices. You could shoot heavier bullets with flatter trajectory which makes easier to kill bigger animals from long distance.


The problem arises when the hunter with his magnum rifle cant shoot it very well .Recently at our rifle range a fellow shooting his 338 magnum from the bench shooting tiny group after tiny group. When he witnessed me zeroing my rifle from the sitting position (I almost never shoot from a benchrest) he asked me why . I replied "well ,you never see US Marines shoot from a bench and they are the best shots in the world why don't you try it" Well this guy was so bad off the bench he couldn't hit a 12"x12" target at 200 yards from any position. He was totally astounded watching me break clay pigeons laying on the berm from the standing position. I have seen this so many times.Nobody shoots from positions anymore ; they come to the range ,plop their fat asses down at a benchrest with double bags and begin to shoot. And while their rifles are most excellent ,they themselves are poor shots .The PH I use when I go hunting in Afrika makes shooters zero their rifles from shooting sticks; he has no benchrest in sight. He told me the average American cant hit an Impala at 100 meters and 1 in 20 can do it from shooting sticks .The magnum guys are by far the worst. My PH friend attributes this to Americans fascination with shooting tiny groups from the bench and neglecting their rifleman skills.




Exactly!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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headoftheholler
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: DarylS]
      #247645 - 22/05/14 02:14 AM

I prefer on whitetails 6.5x55, 7x57, and 257 Roberts. All 3 seem to outperform their size class.

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Dumprat
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: headoftheholler]
      #247665 - 22/05/14 10:50 AM

I will second what "Deutch" and Daryl have said. As for me I like the .308. But I like my shots close. A hundred yards on deer is easy. White tails at 30' in tight bush are a lot more challenging and argue able more fun. But you best be a sneaky bastard with a lot of patience....

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Dumprat]
      #247668 - 22/05/14 11:31 AM

The perfect hunting cartridge is in my opinion the cartridge the hunter is most experienced and confident in, and also which has adequate power and effectiveness for the job at hand.

In a modern consumer society people are always encouraged to buy the newest and latest, to "fix" so called "problems". "All effective magnum cartridges need to have a belt." "Any cartridge with a belt may have feeding problems." "The cartridge needs to be fat and have flat sides." "If it doesn't shoot well over 3000 fps it has a curved trajectory." "If it doesn't have the words Ultra, Super, Duper, it must be ineffective." And so many more stories.

And yet the .308, .30-06, .375 H&H and even the .458 Win Mag still kill well. The .458 did have some problems which better powders have fixed. But when it performs to .450 NE standards there is no problems with it.

We sometimes read of what the perfect hunting battery is in magazines. Nowadays it is usually this calibre or that, often duplicating each other. I remember on old magazine article which was a good one, and used different purposes as the reason - eg small meat game rifle, fast shooting brush rifle, alpine or plains flat shooting rifle, big game rifle etc. A much better way of looking at what is needed. Maybe a good idea for a new thread.

Regarding confidence, after my first cow elephant I had a lot of confidence with .450 NE DR. And rightly or wrongly felt it could handle most situations well. Experienced with it on smaller game (ie compared to elephants!) I had LOTS of practice "shooting" elephants in books, TV, videos, calendars, etc. Lining up brain shots from all angles. Whenever I saw an elephant on the calendar, TV documentary I calculated the angle, but tried to not say BANG when in mixed company.

I would guess Rigby will soon push again the .275 Rigby cartridge, 7x57 mm. While it will not send the world on fire being one of the oldest "modern" smokeless cartridges, I think serious hunters will have a re-look at it, if they don't have one already. Certainly the medium game animals of Europe, Africa, North America and even Australia have not become more armour plated.

The .256 / 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer certainly is another cartridge to consider.

How often do we hear about people using a .270 Winchester these days. Even its "replacement" the 7mm Rem Magnum? (Other than JG here on NE ) At one time, if you didn't use these, you were a turkey!

Here on NE we often like the old and unusual, not the fads and most new BS kid on the block.

For medium game, really there is not much to choose from between a .270, 7x57, 7mm Rem Mag, 7x64, .308, .30-06, 8x57 etc and many others in that range. Some pluses or minuses in some of them, but all will kill the same animals with the right bullet and even more so the right bullet placement, which is often forgotten in the marketing hype.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #247669 - 22/05/14 11:32 AM

Not perfect but my favourites because of long use and familiarity are my .222, .30-06, .375 H&H and .450 No.2 NE.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #247670 - 22/05/14 11:37 AM



Good to see Jofie (Lamprecht) in the article. I met Jofie at the Heym Challenge in Germany in 2013 and shared many a taxi, meal and conversation. He is a good guy.



Quote:

.375 H&H Magnum
PH: Jofie Lamprecht, Jofie Lamprecht Safaris.

Jofie Lamprecht conducts dangerous game hunts in some of the finest big game country in northern Namibia, a region that produces monster elephant bulls. But Jofie doesn’t think that hunters need to come on safari with a cannon in their hands; he recommends the .375 H&H.

“The biggest problem we have as professional hunters in Africa is poor shooting ability due to clients using rifles that they have not practiced with and/or using a caliber that is too large to try and overcompensate for their poor shooting,” says Lamprecht.

“No hunter would ever admit firstly to be a poor shot and secondly that the recoil of large caliber they are using is ‘too much gun’ for them. For dangerous game and specifically elephant I would choose a .375 H&H in a double. The .375 has fantastic penetration even on the skulls of the biggest elephant bulls. It is using ‘enough gun’ that the hunter can shoot accurately and is the legal minimum for most African countries that you can still export elephant to the U.S. As for the double, it is a fantastic advantage to have the second barrel ready if the first does not have the desired effect.”






--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #247677 - 22/05/14 01:17 PM

Quote:

The perfect hunting cartridge is in my opinion the cartridge the hunter is most experienced and confident in, and also which has adequate power and effectiveness for the job at hand.

In a modern consumer society people are always encouraged to buy the newest and latest, to "fix" so called "problems". "All effective magnum cartridges need to have a belt." "Any cartridge with a belt may have feeding problems." "The cartridge needs to be fat and have flat sides." "If it doesn't shoot well over 3000 fps it has a curved trajectory." "If it doesn't have the words Ultra, Super, Duper, it must be ineffective." And so many more stories.

And yet the .308, .30-06, .375 H&H and even the .458 Win Mag still kill well. The .458 did have some problems which better powders have fixed. But when it performs to .450 NE standards there is no problems with it.

We sometimes read of what the perfect hunting battery is in magazines. Nowadays it is usually this calibre or that, often duplicating each other. I remember on old magazine article which was a good one, and used different purposes as the reason - eg small meat game rifle, fast shooting brush rifle, alpine or plains flat shooting rifle, big game rifle etc. A much better way of looking at what is needed. Maybe a good idea for a new thread.

Regarding confidence, after my first cow elephant I had a lot of confidence with .450 NE DR. And rightly or wrongly felt it could handle most situations well. Experienced with it on smaller game (ie compared to elephants!) I had LOTS of practice "shooting" elephants in books, TV, videos, calendars, etc. Lining up brain shots from all angles. Whenever I saw an elephant on the calendar, TV documentary I calculated the angle, but tried to not say BANG when in mixed company.

I would guess Rigby will soon push again the .275 Rigby cartridge, 7x57 mm. While it will not send the world on fire being one of the oldest "modern" smokeless cartridges, I think serious hunters will have a re-look at it, if they don't have one already. Certainly the medium game animals of Europe, Africa, North America and even Australia have not become more armour plated.

The .256 / 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer certainly is another cartridge to consider.

How often do we hear about people using a .270 Winchester these days. Even its "replacement" the 7mm Rem Magnum? (Other than JG here on NE ) At one time, if you didn't use these, you were a turkey!

Here on NE we often like the old and unusual, not the fads and most new BS kid on the block.

For medium game, really there is not much to choose from between a .270, 7x57, 7mm Rem Mag, 7x64, .308, .30-06, 8x57 etc and many others in that range. Some pluses or minuses in some of them, but all will kill the same animals with the right bullet and even more so the right bullet placement, which is often forgotten in the marketing hype.



Well said, and a good point on the .275 Rigby/7x57 round.I have always loved this round and in my ZKK Brno and my .275 Rigby I have used Finn Aagaards favorite load of 49/50 grains 4350 in a 140 Nosler. In both rifles it clocks in at 2,925 fps and I have used this load in 120 degree heat with no issues. My 173 Lapua factory loads are also quite devastating at 2,600 fps.In a modern rifle this moves along quite nicely and because of superior B.C. penetrates like a dream .I remember Finn Aagaards penetration tests and the 7x57 beat even the 416 Rigby .No wonder Bell and Corbett used it extensively


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Sville
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #247701 - 22/05/14 09:20 PM

Why not the 9,3x62, works good on both small and big animals????

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Ripp
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Sville]
      #247709 - 22/05/14 11:39 PM

Quote:

Why not the 9,3x62, works good on both small and big animals????




Think that would be fine as well as I feel the 375H&H would also be a fine all around cartridge. My first hunt in Zim, I used the .416Rem for everything from duiker to eland..no problems...the little stuff had no more damage than if I had been using a 243..

As to penetration, for years a gun shop in Bozeman (Powder Horn) had a sheet of metal behind their desk shot twice..once with a .220 Swift the other with a 30-06..the swift went all the way through the 06 did not..does that mean I want to go hunt griz with a Swift?? while it can be done and I am sure has, don't think that is the prudent choice..

Favorite calibers?? Don't think I have just one...there are way too many good ones out there both old and new..my observations are that many who travel to Africa, Alaska or wherever are not prepared in many ways..physical conditioning, shooting ability, etc..Think some that hunt dangerous game are trying to prove something to either themselves or someone else but really don’t want to be there..so they but the biggest caliber they can find, it kicks the crap out of them so they don’t practice as much as they should..Others its ego, and they have to have the biggest, perhaps to compensate for something of theirs that is not??

Having said all that, for larger game taken are longer distances, I will still take a mag over a standard caliber given the choice. If that isn't for you fine, but for some it is..I find it interesting how many bombs are thrown by those who pound their chests about not ever having the "NEED" for a magnum cartridge or have ever used one for that matter..I have two things to say to that..first, NEED has nothing to do with it. Many years ago Montana didn’t have a speed limit other than "reasonable and prudent" for current road conditions...I could drive from border to border with a 1974 Ford Pinto or a 1993 Porsche Turbo..did I need the Porsche?? Hell no..was it more fun?? Don’t think I need to answer that one..

Secondly, if you have never used one how do you know. That's like a priest trying to tell you how to have sex..o.k., you got me there, they may have some experience, but in general, they have never so how in the hell can they be an expert on it???

Each to their own, but I enjoy them all..and will continue to do so..as often as time will allow..anywhere from my .470 Nitro to the 17HMR, 300RUM and back to the 303 British..

Have a great day...


Ripp




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Ripp
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: DarylS]
      #247712 - 22/05/14 11:45 PM

Quote:

With the advent of the super premium bullets - for example, North Fork, GMX, TTSX, etc, any good hunter/shot could reliably take ANY game in North America, and quite easily too. One shot would be all that is needed - using a .243 or 6mm Rem. Of course, these 'super' bullets would only be necessary for the big bears - all else being handled with 'lesser' bullets.

What makes life more interesting, is using a variety of rifles and ctgs. - or having specific rifles for each animal we hunt, even though a variety of different cartridges aren't required.

Thus, if many 'of us' could make due with a lowly 'varmint/deer' ctg. for all NA game, most would also make due with a .308, '06 or in the Euro rounds, a 7mm or 8mm Mauser. Anything bigger is simply not needed - but - is fun. That is the reason for the plethora of rifle ctgs. today - something for everyone.

They will work perfectly, if applied appropriately.




Couldn't agree more...well stated...

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Yochanan
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Ripp]
      #247849 - 25/05/14 04:57 AM

"Perfect" is what the sportsman prefers.

22lr, I have shoot lot of different animals with it in my youth...I will not elaborate further.

270 Win (bagged most of my animals with this cartridge using 150 grain bullets) and 7mm wby mag (I shoot mostly 160 and 175grain bullets in 7mag and am not fanatic squeezing the extra fps, prefers accuracy)

375 h&H or 375 Blaser got mild recoil and excellent for lots of big game. 250 grain for longer ranges and 300 grain for everything else.

I have 416 Rigby on magnum mauser in the making but its mostly beacuse I want one....passion mostly.

If I would persue a careeer as PH I would get a 500 Jeffery built on magnum mauser - stopper.

--------------------
Đ "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by īshockīunless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.


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awanderingbear
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Yochanan]
      #247869 - 25/05/14 03:28 PM

Hunting what? Should be a factor. I wouldn't hunt the Big 5 with my .22 Hornet, yet I wouldn't hunt small game with a .458 either. Looking back in time to the 1920-1950's era, northern arctic people relied on the .22 Hornet for their meat gun - mainly due to the lightweight of ammunition, yet they killed all manner of game. Ok, maybe sometimes one didn't come home from the hunt! When the .222 Remington came along, they upgraded to that. Nowadays in northern Alaska a rifle using the .223 or .22-250 is not uncommon, along with more current central fire cartridges being used.

The skill of the 'hunter' needs to be a factor; not the ability to shoot. So many of today's people taking to the woods, mountains or plains are shooters and not hunters. A friend who use to "live in the woods" in Montana used an original Marlin 1894 carbine in .32-20 for his deer and elk rifle - he made meat each season to fill his larder. Sometimes he used his big gun, a Marlin .30-30. He 'hunted' and most shots were not over 35-40 yards into the axis joint - DRT. I later upgraded his rifle to a .257 Roberts, which he has used since moving to Wyoming in 1983, with excellent success...so much so that he'll even take an 80-100 yard shot every now and then!

What is the perfect hunting cartridge? A question without a definitive answer, yet fun to discuss.

Charles Sheldon used for his hunting/collecting rifle a 6.5x53R/.256 Mannlicher chambered rifle. For museums and others he collected quantities of game in north America in vast amounts. It's believed he collected between 70 and 80 grizzlies with that rifle. 'If' memory serves me correctly, when he visited with Townsend Whelen in the mid-1950's, shooting standing/offhand at 200 yards, he was able to put 4 or 6(?) rounds into an 8 inch bullseye. He was a 'hunter' and knew his rifle's capabilities. Just saying...

waidmannshiel,
awanderingbear


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awanderingbear
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: awanderingbear]
      #247870 - 25/05/14 03:43 PM

Here's one hunters view...
----------------------------------------------------
The Finest All-'Round Deer Gun
By Kenneth Fuller Lee
The American Rifleman - February 1930


Ever notice how firmly you can stand on a couple of inches of light snow over a heavy crust, with snowshoes strapped to your shoe-pacs?

A good hundred yards away, across the blow-downs and white coated stumps left by the loggers, a big buck threw up his antlered head and started away at a lumbering gallop. Twelve inches of snow and the crust bothered him; and it was another hundred yards to the shelter of the cedars which he sought.

The silver bead of the little 6.5 Mannlicher found his shoulder, and I eased off the trigger. "Wham!" said the smokeless; and the buck, caught with the 160-grain bullet midway of his stride, plunged forward and slid, nose first, into a pile of brush.

A moment later I stooped over him and grasped one of the branching antlers to turn him over. The fast, heavy bullet had broken both front shoulders, the hole emergence being almost the size of a silver dollar.

In the past fifteen years it has been my good fortune to try out most of the common types of American-made hunting rifles in a lot of calibers; and there is no more certain method of starting an argument than to state that such-and-such a rifle is 'the best' for any given purpose.

The little 6.5mm Mannlicher is my own pet tool at present, and this in spite of the fact that for many years as a guide and hunter, I used and swore by a .38-40 carbine; killed lots of game with it, and took plenty of abuse from the wise boys who just knew that it wasn't a suitable gun for use on any kind of medium or large game.

In those days my hunting was confined to dense cover, where it was unusual to get shots at more than 60 to 80 yards, usually snap-shooting through brush, and for that sort of work the little old .38-40 was, and still is, mighty good medicine.

Three years ago I went into the Allagash region of northern Maine, where there is a lot of hardwood, and the country is full of streams and lakes which offer plenty of shots at long range. Knowing that the .38-40 was outclassed in this type of hunting, the little 6.5mm came into my possession and immediately I fell in love with it.

Equipped with a full-length stock with a nice cheek-piece, a very smooth-working bolt which is rigid even when fully extended, an 18-inch barrel of fine accuracy, set-triggers, a silver bead mounted on a nice ramp, and a swinging Lyman with two apertures, this little tool handles splendidly, is light to carry in the woods, and slams its loads out to 300 yards with very little drop.

It did not take me long to discover that those long, lean, hungry- looking 160-grain pills had plenty of wallop. I shot three large bucks and a couple of black bear with them, and in no case did a bullet stay in any of these animals. They rambled right on through meat and bone, and there was never any necessity for chasing anything which was properly hit.

The bullets also showed up splendidly when shooting through very thick cover, not flying to bits and going off at a tangent as do the lighter slugs from the .250-3000, .22 Hi-Power, and others of the same type. I experimented with the 140-grain open-point Western load, a much faster bullet, and it was deadly enough; but the recoil oddly, seemed heavier
than that of the longer, heavier bullet, and for other reasons I did not like it as well as the regular 160-grain load.

Beautifully balanced for offhand shooting, with a glass-hard action which would slide backward and forward by itself, the Mannlicher won its way into my affections almost at once. By pressing a small stud on the right side of the receiver, the rotary magazine spills all the loaded shells right out into your hand; and this is a good feature, which might well be
copied by some of our American makers of fine rifles. That rotary magazine, by the way, is hand-polished, and detachable, and is certainly a sweet bit of mechanism. In three years of constant use I have never had even the slightest intimation of a jam or a misfire with the 6.5, nor lost a single head of game that offered a decent chance.

Lacking the equipment for careful targeting at known ranges, I cannot say just what sort of groups it would make in a machine rest, but for practical work in the game fields its appeal to me as just about the handiest, deadliest, sweetest-shooting tool which ever got into my hands - and I've had plenty of rifles!

Reading the works of other hunters and riflemen, I note that with very few exceptions they show a decided preference for longer barrels in the Mannlicher - preferably 24 inches or more. No doubt these long tubes do add speed to a bullet, and more punch at the delivery end.

I never got a chance to tag a moose with that small sweetheart of a rifle, but would welcome the opportunity to try it out on from a mature dinosaur to a small switch engine. I think it would stop either if held right.

One of the bucks killed with it was shot at an estimated range of 350 yards, across a big marsh. Using the regular 160-grain loads, I held a couple of feet over his shoulder and eased off the set trigger very carefully, shooting from the prone position with my elbows dug in solidly. The buck threw up his head and whistled, stamping his feet angrily and evidently uncertain as to the nature of the big insect which had just cracked past too high. So, dragging the front sight down just a hair, I slammed the second one across and both Mrs. Lee and I afterward agreed that we heard it land on the big boy's shoulder. Down he went in a still heap, not even thrashing after he struck.

After detouring around a lot of dry brush, we finally reached him. As usual we found both shoulders broken, and the 10-pointer was dead.

Performances of that type have welded my affection and respect for the little Mannlicher, until it even seems likely that I will keep it permanently, something which has never happened with any other gun in my years of constant change; and, outside of the specially built arms of Griffin & Howe, Hoffman, Niedner, and other of their kind, it seems to me that the 6.5mm Mannlicher stands almost alone in the field of finely built and most effective hunting arm.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your time and hopefully others out there may enjoy having read this old article.
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"Prominent users of the .256 Mannlicher rifle were Sir Edmund Loder, Sir Alfred Pease, John G. Millais, Maj. R. L. Kennion, P. H. G. Powell-Cotton, Maj. C. H. Stigand and Blayney Percival, all of whom evidently regarded the .256 Mannlicher as their favorite arm. Denis D. Lyell, Charles Sheldon, Hesketh K. H. Prichard, Capt. H. A. Wilson, Roy Chapman Andrews, Vilhjalmur Stefansson and the adventurer and big game hunter Denys Finch-Hatton.........."

To quote Sheldon: "I always had a .22 rifle to use for shooting grouse and small animals, but for large game my Mannlicher, .256 calibre, is the only rifle I have ever used in the North."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Am I saying the .256 Mannlicher/6.5x54mm is the perfect hunting cartridge? Not necessarily.
Though in the right hands it has worked well, hasn't it . . .


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DarylS
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: awanderingbear]
      #247892 - 26/05/14 01:25 AM

That's a really good story.

That is why I have a "little" 6.5 in the locker, leaning in the rack between the 9.3x62 and .375/06IMP.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mckinney
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: DarylS]
      #247893 - 26/05/14 01:35 AM

Very nice story which has stirred several thoughts:

1) would like to get up to Maine
2) need to buy some pre 1940's American Rifleman magazines
3) need to get a 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher!


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gmsemel
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: mckinney]
      #251145 - 28/07/14 12:20 AM

Well all in all they seem to recommend moderate cartridges, 7mm RM 338 or a 375, I could agree with that and that they are quite common were ever big game is hunted. While the perfect cartridge for hunting White Tails in South Eastern CT on Private land ( you can use centerfire rifles if you do in CT) would make the suggested cartridges a bit over powerful for the game and the distances one shoots deer here, a 243 is plenty thou I shoot a 6.5 x 55 most of the time in my deer hunting here, I also been known to use both a 7mm RM, 338 Winchester and 7 x 57. Sure you could fit a 9.3 x 62 into the mix instead of a 338 or 375 and it would make perfect sense, since the performance levels are similar. Or a 30-06 for that matter, what they are really saying is a level of performance at an except able level of recoil, in a rifle that an less that physically fit individual that can carry and shoot reasonably well enough to get the job done. Lets face it, most never get to hunt the sort of game mentioned till late middle age or into ones 60's since younger persons don't have the money yet for such things and for most its a one hunt in a life time, I could be happy shooting my white tails with a 223 if it was legal, its not, or a 243, the deer here for the most part average about 100 lbs or so and shots well a long one would be 70 yards!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #277349 - 30/01/16 04:40 PM

Quote:


Well said, and a good point on the .275 Rigby/7x57 round.I have always loved this round and in my ZKK Brno and my .275 Rigby I have used Finn Aagaards favorite load of 49/50 grains 4350 in a 140 Nosler. In both rifles it clocks in at 2,925 fps and I have used this load in 120 degree heat with no issues. My 173 Lapua factory loads are also quite devastating at 2,600 fps.In a modern rifle this moves along quite nicely and because of superior B.C. penetrates like a dream .I remember Finn Aagaards penetration tests and the 7x57 beat even the 416 Rigby .No wonder Bell and Corbett used it extensively




Having been reading Bell again recently, a .275 Rigby/7x57 sounds like a wonderful rifle. Capable of anything. Bell really was a master salesman in his confidence and writings about the rifle and cartridge. I want one now again.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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gryphon
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Ripp]
      #277362 - 31/01/16 06:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:



Agree with the above--the .o6 will handle anything that walks in N America.


Ripp




Yes agreed and of course DEPENDING on whom actually is using it at the time,that is most important as many cant seem to get any calibre to work!

--------------------
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sharps4590
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: gryphon]
      #280120 - 01/04/16 10:25 PM

Always an interesting topic and, as others have mentioned, no definitive answer.

As with many of you I've been playing with lots of various cartridges in as many different rifles, domestic, British and German, for quite a few decades in both smokeless and black powder guise. The one thing that I have noticed more than anything else is the huge duplication in ballistics. There is smokeless powder cartridges introduced in the last couple decades that do no more than some introduced prior to WWI. In my experience that holds especially true if one uses more modern, slower burning propellants. When one is using black powder cartridges the differences between American, British and German cartridges becomes even less. My 10.5 X 47R is essentially, ballistically the same as the 40-82 WCF.

When it comes to performance on game all I can speak to is experience gained in the lower 48. For many that will be pretty tame when compared to cape buffalo, elephant, etc. On game from the size of whitetail, wild boar and up to elk it seemed to me one killed as well as the next if the bullet is put in the proper place. As with most I prefer a bigger, heavier bullet for larger game but as the posted article mentions I too am a fan of the 6.5 X 54 M/S cartridge. Geez...how can one not like it especially when used in the svelte 1903 M/S carbine? Anyway, I doubt any game animal ever thought, "oh, he shot me with a 243 so that isn't as bad as being shot with a 300 Win. Mag." The deadliest rifle I have ever used, and I killed a boat load of game with it, is my Shiloh Sharps in 45-90 loaded with 80 grs. of black and a 480 gr. NEI bullet cast 25-1. There isn't a doubt in my mind any other cartridge sporting similar ballistics and bullet weight in any other rifle would be just as deadly. Is my 45-90 the best. Good grief no. I like it awfully well but I'm not that narrow minded.

The question of the necessity of Magnum cartridges always arises. I've owned more than a few rifles so chambered and if I were relegated to owning one rifle, God forbid, it would be a 300 Win Mag., provided I could still handload. There is others certainly just as accurate and powerful. However, I have a great deal of experience with that particular 30 cal. Magnum and besides, I just like it. Therein lies the only reason needed to own any cartridge. I don't believe that a Magnum cartridge in any caliber is necessary for my hunting or most others. If a person is willing to hunt harder, that is get closer to the game in question, and willing to set personal parameters those cartridges developed before 1910 are all that is necessary. But where is the fun in that? I used to live in Wyoming and prior to moving there had hunted the west quite a bit. I know all too well that there is sometimes no way to get closer to a game animal. Using some of the older, slower cartridges can perhaps prevent one taking a shot they might take if carrying a fast stepping Magnum. That's where setting personal parameters comes in, in addition to knowing ones abilities at longer range. Whatever my parameters are they certainly aren't for everyone. They're set because that's the way I want to hunt and are applicable to no one else.

I hear and read a lot about new, "premium" bullets. From what I hear and read their performance is exemplary. On soft skinned game almost as good as a well cast bullet...and I say that tongue in cheek. However, I don't see how they can possibly be any more effective than a well cast bullet of suitable caliber, weight and velocity when put in the proper place. I suppose one could call them the original "mono-metal" bullet. I must reiterate, using cast bullets is a choice I have made for me. My choice has no bearing on what others choose to use. It is certain neither is wrong.

For many who suffer from "magnumitis" I believe a previous poster described it quite succinctly. They neither have nor take the opportunity to become intimately familiar with their rifle and attempt to make up for ability with power. That is not much different from taking me who mostly drives a 1/2 ton pickup and sticking me in a Formula 1 Ferrari. I'm probably going to make a wreck of things.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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szihn
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: sharps4590]
      #280128 - 02/04/16 02:19 AM

Interesting question, but far too open-ended to make a hard science out of.
Best hunting cartridge….for hunting what, and where? A 30-30 is outstanding for deer in Vermont but lacks the range many hunters would like to have hunting deer in Nevada.

I think it is arguable that the “best hunting cartridge” for most hunting in the USA is either the 22 LR or a shot shell. This from the fact that far more small game is shot every year than big game.
I know men in Alabama and Oklahoma who kill about 6-8 deer a year each, but they kill 10-15 rabbits and birds every time they go out hunting for them, and they hunt for small game 6 months out of the year.
So if I were to make a wild guess, I’d say the average American hunter probably kills 50-100 animals a year and some far more. If we look at the number of kills of all game compared to the numbers of kills of big game, I would bet the big game kills are about 2% to 5% of the kills.

In my opinion if we were to look at only big game cartridges most Americans (most being those that hunt white-tails and maybe pigs) the best cartridges for that task are probably the 260 Rem, and the 6.5 Swede. My reasons are these:

These 2 shells have all the power and range that could be asked for from a deer rifle. They also fit in autos, bolt actions, pumps, lever actions and single-shot rifles.
In the case of the 260, the brass is easily made from surplus machine gun brass, so it’s cheap. Too bad the old cheap surplus rifle powders are a thing of the past.
Loaded with 120 grain bullets these 2 shells kick so little more than a 243 that the difference is hard to tell. But they can be loaded with bullets of up to 160 grains too, so that pushes their utility far out in front of the 243.

I do not own either one.
Why?
I live in Wyoming and the “common game” here is the elk. Sure we have all the antelope and deer you could want too, and sure…the 6.5s will do for elk, but there are better choices for this area. That is not to say I’d be unhappy with a good 6.5, but having grown up out here, I have always gone for the 270 and 30-06 as general purpose shells.

I have used a lot of different guns and cartridges in my 50 years of hunting in many states and a few other countries, but I have not seen many offerings that show me much more than my original picks for how well they put game on the ground.

In my life I have killed big game with the following:
222, 223, 6MM Rem, 257 Roberts, 25-06, 6.5 Grendal, 6.5 Swede, 6.8 SPC 270 Winchester, 270 WSM, 7X57, 7X64, 30-30 30-40 Krag, 300 Savage, 308, 30-06, 300 H&H, 308 Norma, 303 Brit, 8X57, 8X68, 338-06, 338 Win Mag, 348 Win, 9.3X74R, 375H&H, 416 Taylor, 404 Jeffery, 458 Win, 50-140 Sharps, 45-70, 45 cal muzzleloader, 50 cal muzzleloader, 54 cal muzzleloader, 58 cal muzzleloader, and 62 cal muzzleloader , and in handguns I have made kills with 357 mag, 41 mag, 44 mag, 45auto, 45 colt and 454 Casull, as well as arrows from recurve and long bows. This is a pretty complete list, but I may have forgotten a few at the time I write this. In addition to this list I have seen game killed with probably 20-30 more cartridges used by friends and clients.
My point is simply that I am speaking from experience, not reading about someone else’s opinion in a magazine somewhere.

But coming back to the 1st question, we have to acknowledge that by far, most American hunters are deer hunters and will not hunt elk, moose, caribou, bear or buffalo, and if they do, most will not hunt them many times in their lives. So it would seem sensible to buy a special rifle for the special game, and use a general-purpose rifle for everything else. So my vote goes to the 6.5 Swede in bolt actions and single shots, and the 260 for lever actions and pump (if Remington would do it anyway.)

Now for the issue of “one size fits all” which is really more a dream then reality, I still believe the best all-around cartridge ever made for the hunter of north American is the 30-06.

If we go to the international idea of an all-around rifle, the title would go to the 375H&H.

The reason this is actually a pipe dream is simple.

Anyone that can afford to hunt big game all over the 50 states and also Canada as well as those that can go to Africa and Australia and New Zealand can easily afford more than one gun. So this scenario is interesting only because it makes us do honest comparisons of guns and cartridges as well as bullet performance, but in the real world we have to admit it doesn’t matter all that much, and all game hunting is covered very very well by MANY different cartridges.

Shoot what you like, use a good bullet that will not go all to pieces on impact, and you have a good rifle if you are a good hunter.

Use what you like and use it within YOU’RE limitations and you’ll be fine. Don’t shoot if you are pushing your luck. Just be responsible and have the respect you should have for the game.

Edited by szihn (02/04/16 02:24 AM)


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Huvius
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: szihn]
      #280130 - 02/04/16 03:23 AM

I usually don't pay much attention to these types of articles but IMO when asking about the cartridge itself (not a particular factory load) you would have trouble beating the .458Win or Lott (or 450NE too).

First, handloaded, they can properly kill any animal on Earth from rabbits to elephant.

Any power load from the 455Webley to 450NE is possible with different reloading techniques.
Solids, softs, cast of all weights and even home made bullets like mine made from 45acp brass make the .458 class cartridges quite versatile.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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JabaliHunter
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Huvius]
      #280152 - 02/04/16 09:54 AM

If I were starting out, I would pick a 6.5mm and a 9,3x62mm and happily hunt the world over.
Adding further rifles would only be to fulfil specific roles such as a .458 or .500 for elephants or buffalo in dense vegetation where visibility is short; a subsonic .22LR for rabbits and squirrels; and a varmint/fox rifle such as a .20 or .222.


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Homer
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #280161 - 02/04/16 02:25 PM

G'Day Fella's,

What a dumb question!

According to the contents of my safe, there are at least 20+ Perfect Hunting Cartridges!
I know a few Kiwi's, that would argue that the .222Rem, is an ideal Red Deer (and other Deer)cartridge!!!

LOL!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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DarylS
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Homer]
      #280167 - 02/04/16 06:30 PM

Yes - .222 is a perfect deer ctg. as long as the right bullet is used, such as a 45 or 50gr. TSX or 60gr. Nosler Part. if it will shoot them.

I've a friend who thinks a .22-250 is THE perfect bear ctg. with 55gr. Speer Sp's at 3,700fps.

I, on the other hand, think the .222 and .22-250 are wolf & deer ctgs, with the .17CF's being primarily gopher and other field rat rifles. All other CF's are for moose, elk and etc.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gryphon
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: DarylS]
      #280168 - 02/04/16 06:46 PM

Quote:



I've a friend who thinks a .22-250 is THE perfect bear ctg. with 55gr. Speer Sp's at 3,700fps.





Daryl,I have only smelled a bear in a zoo but even I know that the .22.250 is not the PERFECT bear cartridge! PERIOD!

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: gryphon]
      #280195 - 03/04/16 03:12 AM

if we not talking about dangerous game ... 8x57

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Rule303
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: lancaster]
      #280236 - 03/04/16 09:18 PM

Quote:

if we not talking about dangerous game ... 8x57




That is a very hard to beat calibre. I would take the 8X57 over a 308 or 30-06 any day.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Homer]
      #280249 - 03/04/16 10:26 PM

Quote:

G'Day Fella's,

What a dumb question!

According to the contents of my safe, there are at least 20+ Perfect Hunting Cartridges!
I know a few Kiwi's, that would argue that the .222Rem, is an ideal Red Deer (and other Deer)cartridge!!!

LOL!
Homer




Having shot a great many fallow deer with a .222. Almost all brain shot. In my fenced paddocks as meat culls. My opinion is it is FAR from an ideal sporting deer cartridge. Deer move their heads constantly. Perhaps in the wild, unaware deer are calmer and move their heads less. A good brain shot needs to be carefully taken with some patience. It is not hard to miss or wound the deer. I had my first jaw shot a week or so ago, but wuickly shot again in the brain. In the wild it might have been well and truly gone. Probably my standard is 19/20 one shot brain kills. I used to use a .22 Magnum as the bang is far quieter. However a good skull shot which misses the brain does not kill. A .222 will create more damage and often shatter the skull or damage the brain. A 6mm would be even better. However where I shoot them, I don't want a larger bullet zinging off anywhere. Same with brain shooting kangaroos. A miss on the brain with a .222 if it hit the jaw, can blow it off. If the roo gets away a terrible death. I think a .243/6mm is an ideal minimum.

A deer can also be killed quite cleanly with a good broadside lung shot. A friend claims his .22 RF placed on a certain dot (fallow deer) will die every time, quietly and cleanly. A .222 round placed in the lungs will probably blow up the lungs and quickly kill the deer. I wonder what the effect is with a 50 gr or 55 gr fragile soft point on a rib? Don't know. I haven't used the lung shot at all, always going for the brain shot.

Supposedly a fair number of "trophy" sambar deer are shot with .222's and .223's in the brain when dazzled by a spotlight, but hardly sporting and not a trophy by any standard.

Just some comments from personal experience.

A reason sporting free range hunting is usually recommended needing something like a .243 and larger. Because of variability of circumstances, lack of time or patience, different shooting angles and aiming points to reach the vitals.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #280250 - 03/04/16 10:34 PM

BTW I dislike articles talking about the "perfect" or the "best" cartridge or chambering as it is subjective to the rifle, the beast, the scenario and the person. What are the standards of "perfect"? A short cartridge? Or a long cartridge which provides more power? One with straight walls? Or one with tapered walls which extracts better? Rimless, magnum or rimless? One with super high velocity? Or a cartridge which delivers solid performance with a velocity which delivers good performance from the projectile of choice?

Lots of questions and answers and often more than one can be right for the right scenario.

Use of these sorts of words is often the same tactics of provocation that tabloid publishers use to generate debate and argument and provide them with more copy.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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cooch
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #280307 - 04/04/16 12:20 PM

Yes..... Bell shot a lot of elephants with the .275 and the .318.
Does this make those cartridges "good" for elephant?
Ask the ghosts - and there are quite a few of them - of those who tried to "do a Bell" and were off-centre by just a tiny amount.
Bell was a superlative shot, by all accounts, and did a lot of his hunting in the open. Not the tick stuff.

Or read Elmer Keith on why he recommended larger calibres for Elk than the '06. Despite its THEORETICAL performance on big game, what he found from EXPERIENCE was that he spent far too much time as a guide, tracking wounded game for clients who had used the calibres being lauded as totally adequate in this thread.

Just because something CAN be done, does not make it a good idea.

Likewise, pretending that a man who can shoot his .338 well off the bench, but not standing, has problems with his "magnum" is simple ego-stroking. Those of us who shoot the bigger calibres know that recoil is MORE of an issue off the bench than it is is freehand. The issue is not one of recoil, but of coordination, skill and practice.if you cannot recognise this, then I have to question your understanding.
I speak as someone who can shoot consecutive sub-MOA groups over a bench with my "magnums", but who lacks the physical coordination to shoot well offhand with a .22RF or any of the small centrefires.

It sucks, but I do what I can with what I have.

Yeah, bullet technology has improved, but Bell was using the old technology. Don't pretend that technology has made us all into Bells. It has given us a little more margin for error. Not orders of magnitude. Nor has it rescinded the laws of physics.

----------

Back to reality.
I would argue that the "perfect" hunting cartridge is a myth. It would shoot flatter than a .220 Swift, have the recoil of a .22RF and the knockdown power of a .505 Gibbs.
In practice, every choice is a compromise. It needs to shoot flat enough to make hitting your target at ranges that are only roughly known and without the time required to play with rangefinders and sight adjustment.
It need to throw a sufficiently heavy projectile to reliably put a hole in the vitals even when the angle is sub-optimal.
....... AAAAND you need to be able to shoot it well. That - within reason - is more an issue of practice, familiarity and knowing your limits (I mentioned my own, above).

There is a lot to like about medium-bores like the .375, and a lot of hard experience behind the old saying that you should shoot the largest calibre that you can shoot well. For big game, at any rate.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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CarlsenHighway
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: cooch]
      #281699 - 29/04/16 05:14 PM

Quote:

Yes..... Bell shot a lot of elephants with the .275 and the .318.
Does this make those cartridges "good" for elephant?
Ask the ghosts - and there are quite a few of them - of those who tried to "do a Bell" and were off-centre by just a tiny amount.
Bell was a superlative shot, by all accounts, and did a lot of his hunting in the open. Not the tick stuff.

Or read Elmer Keith on why he recommended larger calibres for Elk than the '06. Despite its THEORETICAL performance on big game, what he found from EXPERIENCE was that he spent far too much time as a guide, tracking wounded game for clients who had used the calibres being lauded as totally adequate in this thread.

Just because something CAN be done, does not make it a good idea.

Likewise, pretending that a man who can shoot his .338 well off the bench, but not standing, has problems with his "magnum" is simple ego-stroking. Those of us who shoot the bigger calibres know that recoil is MORE of an issue off the bench than it is is freehand. The issue is not one of recoil, but of coordination, skill and practice.if you cannot recognise this, then I have to question your understanding.
I speak as someone who can shoot consecutive sub-MOA groups over a bench with my "magnums", but who lacks the physical coordination to shoot well offhand with a .22RF or any of the small centrefires.

It sucks, but I do what I can with what I have.

Yeah, bullet technology has improved, but Bell was using the old technology. Don't pretend that technology has made us all into Bells. It has given us a little more margin for error. Not orders of magnitude. Nor has it rescinded the laws of physics.

----------

Back to reality.
I would argue that the "perfect" hunting cartridge is a myth. It would shoot flatter than a .220 Swift, have the recoil of a .22RF and the knockdown power of a .505 Gibbs.
In practice, every choice is a compromise. It needs to shoot flat enough to make hitting your target at ranges that are only roughly known and without the time required to play with rangefinders and sight adjustment.
It need to throw a sufficiently heavy projectile to reliably put a hole in the vitals even when the angle is sub-optimal.
....... AAAAND you need to be able to shoot it well. That - within reason - is more an issue of practice, familiarity and knowing your limits (I mentioned my own, above).

There is a lot to like about medium-bores like the .375, and a lot of hard experience behind the old saying that you should shoot the largest calibre that you can shoot well. For big game, at any rate.





People always talk about Bell as if he was the only one, but a many people were shooting elephant with small cartriges in the old days. He wasn't the only one. He was exceptional in that he had a good career and made money out of it, and wrote books.
One could argue that a man who shot over a thousand elephants and made a fortune doing it probably knows more about killing elephants than anyone today. Remember he only shot bulls as well, as big as he could find.

A .303 solid through the brain or the heart is just as deadly as a .416. And Bell's shots were indeed up close, he sighted his rifles in for 80 yards.
Anyway.

Why the head shots with the .222? A body shot will kill just as well as a .308, to the same kill zone as well...
The .222 is deadly enough without TSX bullets. People who havnt used it are always assuming it needs some kind of 'leg up' - but the thousands of red deer and tahr shot with the little cartridge in the 60's and 70's were done with the factory 50 grain Norma soft point, and nowadays people are using the 55 grain Interlock.
Hardly anyone uses TSX bullets in the triple two, because they mostly won't stablise. (The 45 g TSX probably will, but I cant find anyone who has tried it, and I havnt yet myself.)

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #281711 - 30/04/16 01:39 AM

In Australia and NZ when game animals are or were considered pests and "thousands were shot" often for profit, I do wonder how many were lost wounded to inadequate cartridge choice ...

The "fuck it, lets find another one instead ..." attitude.

Seen and heard it more than often myself ...

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John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #281712 - 30/04/16 01:44 AM

Quote:

Why the head shots with the .222? A body shot will kill just as well as a .308, to the same kill zone as well...
The .222 is deadly enough without TSX bullets. People who havnt used it are always assuming it needs some kind of 'leg up' - but the thousands of red deer and tahr shot with the little cartridge in the 60's and 70's were done with the factory 50 grain Norma soft point, and nowadays people are using the 55 grain Interlock.
Hardly anyone uses TSX bullets in the triple two, because they mostly won't stablise. (The 45 g TSX probably will, but I cant find anyone who has tried it, and I havnt yet myself.)




If that is a question to my comment? Less meat damage and cleaner kill. And used to make head shots with my .30-06 too on feral goats when I wanted to as it was just as accurate as the .222.

In my .222 I am just using factory Remington .222s with standard 50 gr SPs.

Shot another eight fallow on ANZAC Monday. Nine shots, one complete miss which did annoy me.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DarylS
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #281716 - 30/04/16 01:59 AM

The 50gr. TSX and 62gr.HP Norma Varmageddon are the two most accurate bullets in my 22-250. The TSX is running only about 3,850fps and the 62's some 3,550fps.

The TSX I would use on a deer, but not the 62gr. varmint bullets.
I double my 14" twist triple deuce will shoot any of the TSX's - too long & not enough speed to get them stabilized. Any of the 55gr. Sp's would probably work, but I've the .22-250 or some real rifles for that job.

Last time I was hunting deer with a .22 CF, we (daughter & I) walked right into a grizzly's living room - his 'man cave' area - I really felt foolish.

For bears, I have a .50-95 Winchester, 9.3x62 or .375/06IMP. I even have a .303 Express on a #4 and #4 in .303- so no need for the .22 on bigger and/or dangerous game.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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cooch
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #281765 - 30/04/16 08:01 PM

I suggest that you read Phil Holden, among others.

Phil discussed caliber selection during his career as a deer culler and concluded that the .222 was just fine for NZ Red Deer if you didn't mind wounding a few that should have been killed. From memory, he finished his career using a 7x57 because he DID mind.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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cooch
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: cooch]
      #281766 - 30/04/16 08:17 PM

The argument that any calibre will do if you hit it in the right spot, relies on the unreasonable assumption that all shots are either "good" or a complete miss.

In truth, there are probably as many shots that are slightly off-centre as any other category.
Taylor's "knock out formula" was based on his observations of this phenomenon. Both that very near misses produced sub-optimal results - such as the elephant getting up and killing you after having appeared to have been dead - and that using a more adequate calibre put the odds more in the hunter's favour.

Bell himself recorded cutting the tail off a "dead" ele to mark his ownership of the animal, only to find, on his return, that it had recovered from its "fatal" head-wound and decamped.

Same goes for many wounds that are fatal-but-not-yet. Whether it is the wound that does not leave an adequate blood trail for tracking in the late evening, or the same slow bleeding that permits the animal to either make cover or make it to the hunter for a little tit-for-tat before expiring.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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cooch
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #281771 - 30/04/16 09:47 PM

Quote:

In Australia and NZ when game animals are or were considered pests and "thousands were shot" often for profit, I do wonder how many were lost wounded to inadequate cartridge choice ...

The "fuck it, lets find another one instead ..." attitude.

Seen and heard it more than often myself ...




I recall listening to my father talking about shooting rabbits during the plague in the 50s.
They used .22 Shorts because there were millions of rabbits and this was the cheapest ammo available. They shot so much and got so good at judging trajectory that hits were routine at 100 yards. If you hit a rabbit, there was no need to hit it again. If it was gut-shot, it would die of peritonitis.

Hard men, but far harder times. It may also have had something to do with the fact that many of them were returned soldiers who had seen what real cruelty looked like.

I sometimes think that an obsession with animal welfare is a modern luxury.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett


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Rockdoc
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: cooch]
      #281787 - 01/05/16 09:59 AM

Quote:

I sometimes think that an obsession with animal welfare is a modern luxury.




More a first world human luxury. With a large dash of hypocrisy.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #281790 - 01/05/16 11:56 AM

+1

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Birdhunter50
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #281809 - 01/05/16 10:08 PM

If I could only have one gun to use on everything it would be a 30-06. A close second choice would be a good .308, and if more horsepower was needed, a good 45-70 double rifle would be hard to beat.
Bob


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Wanabebwana
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #282385 - 14/05/16 01:59 PM

The perfect cartridge is the most efficient ( least amount of powder, noise and recoil),that will ethically kill the animal you are hunting at the range you are taking your shot.
If you want one cartridge for all game it will be a poor compromise.
For large(1000lbs) non dangerous game. Depending on your tolerance to recoil:
Less than 200 yds. I like 9.3x57, .35 Whelen, 30-06,(220gr).
Over 200 yds. .338 Win Mag, .300 Win Mag, 8x68S.
There are several "perfect cartridges" for every animal at every distance and condition possible. What your local gun shop sells the most may be the best for you.

My favorites are the .22LR, .223Rem. .270 Win, .30-06, 8x57, 9.3x57, 9.3x62, .340 WBY, .375 H&H, .458 Lott but I have many others as well. The caliber is often limited to the rifle that chambers it. The finest Mauser action guns have older well proven calibers. If you want a Weatherby, Ultramag , Lapua Lazzeroni, Ruger or Blaser cartridge you are limited to certain brands.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: cooch]
      #296585 - 08/03/17 09:11 PM

Quote:



I sometimes think that an obsession with animal welfare is a modern luxury.




Well the LEGAL requirement for it certainly is a modern phenomenom BUT the existence of persons who understood care for animals and that animal cruelty is not necessary has always existed. Just like there has always been the complete arseholes who lack empathy, whether for animals or even their fellow man. And these arseholes who have always existed have never cared about cruelty to animals, humans, whatever. A lack of empathy is a definition for evil btw.

In the farming community there have always been some farmers who cared for their animals and limited harm or pain to them. And other arseholes who think nothing of the worst cruelty, whether by inaction. Or by action.

The modern part is legal constraints and obligations.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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albertan
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #299222 - 18/04/17 07:36 PM

The natives in Canada's far North kill polar bears that would kill the the largest lion, tiger, or Cape buffalo in a matter of seconds. They often use .223's or .243's for such work. They are on home turf that they are intimate with and they hunt off an all terrain vehicle (ATV). Snow mobile, quad, or Argo. It doesn't matter. Just drive up to the animal and bang, it's over.

I won't say for a minute that natives are any less sporting than the travelling sportsman who ventures up there. I would be willing to bet that many sportsmen go North with the purest of hearts, but the distances are vast. The temperature is so low for many of the sportsmen from the warmer Southern climates that they would perish in less than one day if it were not for their guides. The wealthy sportsmen might get off the machine to shoot his quarry, but I bet he doesn't waddle too far from it before he shoots. Did he need a .375 H&H? No, but the story he tells when he gets home needs it.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: albertan]
      #299230 - 18/04/17 08:55 PM

Yeah the 'noble savage' uses all sorts of crap guns here too. Not because they choose to do so, because the cheap and crap ones are cheap ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Claydog
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: NitroX]
      #299239 - 18/04/17 10:39 PM

The perfect hunting cartridge would be the one you happen to have in your hands at the time. Make the most of it.

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DarylS
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Claydog]
      #299241 - 19/04/17 01:08 AM

The PERFECT hunting cartridge, would be one that cost mere pennies to shoot, was extremely accurate & flat shooting with all bullet weights, had very little recoil, shot very cleanly and killed EVERYTHING you shot with it, from Elephants to ground squirrels with the speed of a lightening strike.

THAT would be the perfect hunting cartridge.

To date, it does not exist.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: DarylS]
      #299283 - 19/04/17 11:12 PM

Agree--while it makes for interesting discussion, there is no such thing IMHO. Largely dependent on what you are hunting, where you are hunting, etc... Yes, there are a few that will work for everything but are they "perfect"???... I can't think of one that is perfect for all types of game, terrain, etc... The 375H&H is a really fine cartridge. Works well on larger game and if necessary will kill up to elephant..are there others that will work better, hit harder, etc??? Absolutely ...

While dead is dead, there is that crazy word again, "perfect"... and it is NOT perfect at least in my experience...can certainly kill all of them, but perfection is not there for any cartridge, again, IMHO...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (20/04/17 12:43 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: What is the perfect hunting cartridge??? [Re: Ripp]
      #299286 - 20/04/17 02:12 AM

Exactly, Ripp. For me, perfect would have to mean at least

good for all hunting scenarios.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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