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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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458Shooter
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Loc: Canada
Almost forgotten cartridges ....
      #184953 - 01/07/11 05:25 AM

The 8x57 Mauser and the 358 Winchester have been forgotten in the hunting camps, I guess the times have changed and shooters want the latest laser with the biggest scope.
The original military condition Brno 8x57 Mauser I picked up recently shoots 220 grain bullets right around 2400 fps. The 358 Winchester shoots the 225 grain Barnes X bullets at just over 2500 fps, I can't believe these cartridges have been overlooked for so long.
I will continue to hunt and target shoot with the 8x57, although most of the time people will look at my Mauser at the gun range and wonder what planet it fell to earth from.
I baffle them further when I show them the 30-06 brass I used to make 8x57 Mauser.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 458Shooter]
      #184960 - 01/07/11 08:27 AM

Just use a 30-06 with 220 grainers ! easier ? best, Mike

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458Shooter
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #184962 - 01/07/11 08:41 AM

Quote:

Just use a 30-06 with 220 grainers ! easier ? best, Mike




Although the 06 is a world class cartridge, I find it kinda boring because every dog and his owner has one. Just as I prefer the 7x57 over the 7 mag because the Mauser has more elegance and about a 70 year head start on the 7mm Rem mag. It's not always about light warp speed....


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tophet1
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 458Shooter]
      #184963 - 01/07/11 08:52 AM

I agree 458Shooter.

My son recently took a number of camels on foot with an ex-mil VZ-24 open sighted 8x57 and 170 RNSP Hornadys. No scopes, no 'wonder' bullets. He just hunted them close with a round that works, like all the other rounds that work when put in the right place.


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Ben
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: tophet1]
      #184964 - 01/07/11 09:17 AM

Recently I bought a Ruger No.1 in .300H&H. There are more sensible options, especially in terms of ammunition / component availability, but there is just something special, to my mind, about it.

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500Nitro
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Ben]
      #184965 - 01/07/11 09:25 AM

Yes, the 30.06 is kind of boring and everyone has one but partly as a result of ammo being readily available world wide.

I like different calibres but sometimes for non reloaders practicality has to take over.

.


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458Shooter
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #184966 - 01/07/11 10:51 AM

I wasn't knocking the venerable 06, just having a look at something different from the everyday stuff. I have many 06 rifles over the years, they work very well for most game that will be encountered by the everyday hunter.
After 35 years of hunting and shooting, it's nice to try something new.
The 7x57 Mauser, 8x57 Mauser, 358 Winchester , 35 Whelen, and the 375 H&H are some of my favorites.


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500Nitro
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 458Shooter]
      #184968 - 01/07/11 11:24 AM

Quote:

I wasn't knocking the venerable 06, just having a look at something different from the everyday stuff. I have many 06 rifles over the years, they work very well for most game that will be encountered by the everyday hunter.
After 35 years of hunting and shooting, it's nice to try something new.
The 7x57 Mauser, 8x57 Mauser, 358 Winchester , 35 Whelen, and the 375 H&H are some of my favorites.





No, I realise that, I had no problem with your post and in fact I am similar to some extent, I like 275Rigby (have 2), 300H&H (will get one one day).

I have used other people's guns, mainly in the NT in 8mm, 6.5mm just not a fan myself. 35 Whelan is a popular Sambar cartridge down here.

.


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gryphon
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 458Shooter]
      #184970 - 01/07/11 12:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Just use a 30-06 with 220 grainers ! easier ? best, Mike




Just as I prefer the 7x57 over the 7 mag because the Mauser has more elegance and about a 70 year head start on the 7mm Rem mag.




Sort of same reason I have 308 and 358 cals

but for me both are Norma Magnums on a world scale they dont rate in huge numbers!


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mauserand9mm
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: gryphon]
      #184973 - 01/07/11 01:13 PM

I shoot "Combined Services" match which is basically ex-military rifles in original military configuration and mostly bolt actions, and 8mm isn't a popular cartridge there either. I guess this is because the ex-mil ammo has dried up (although 6.5x55 is the most popular and there's no ex-mil ammo for those).

I have two ex-mil 8mm bolt actions myself (a 1903 Turk and a 1904/39 Portuguese) and have been wanting to try them out hunting but they are not a high priority so haven't done this yet. I've used a 308 Israeli Mauser in original military config out hunting and it performs well. It has been my "spare" backup rifle in case my usual rifle (Remington in the same calibre/cartridge) breaks - it never has (I used the Israeli to try it out and it was handy at the time).

Edited by mauserand9mm (01/07/11 01:15 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #184976 - 01/07/11 02:02 PM

time and fashion change over the years. twenty years ago the 8x57 was very dead as a hunting round in the Reich and very few new sporting rifles were offer in this caliber.
the 7x64 was ruling the scene. but when wild bore population becoming a problem the 8x57 as the better pig killer was coming back again and now every new rifle is also made in 8x57.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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450_Ackley
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: lancaster]
      #184978 - 01/07/11 03:39 PM

I've got a few of the old timers as well in the safes.
such calibres as 7x57, 300 H&H, 35 Whelen and of course a 450 Ackley, liked it better than a 458 Lott.
I'd always have a 222 over a 223 anyday as well.
I also shoot a 225 Winchester and a 219 Donaldson Wasp as well, just to be different.
And of course, there's the lever action 22 Savage Hi-power, 25-20, 30-30 and 45-70.
And I'm in the process of having a 30-30 Wesson built on a Martini as well, just because I can!

Nothing a new cartridge can do that an older cartidge hasn't already done.

DC


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Dr_Deer
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: lancaster]
      #184981 - 01/07/11 03:51 PM

Quote:

time and fashion change over the years. twenty years ago the 8x57 was very dead as a hunting round in the Reich and very few new sporting rifles were offer in this caliber.
the 7x64 was ruling the scene. but when wild bore population becoming a problem the 8x57 as the better pig killer was coming back again and now every new rifle is also made in 8x57.




I find the fickel fashions and fates of the 8mms interesting.

I recall reading Bill Morkel's Hunting in Africa where he sang the praises of the 8x60S as a plains game rifle par excellence. Yet at this juncture no one chambers new rifles and ammo is only available from S&B & RWS.

Also in the "Where are they now" category are the 8mm Brennekes, the 8x64 & 8x65R. The latter would be ideal in light double for stalking reds or driven game I'd imagine yet Blaser & Kreighoff ressurected the 8x75RS instead in recent decades, and have now it seems even dropped that rounds from their line up.


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Rolf
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Dr_Deer]
      #185001 - 01/07/11 09:15 PM

Amendment to the comment of Dr. Deer:

Heym offers his rifles SR21 and SR30 in 8x64S in the standard price caliber category.

best regards
Rolf


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Dr_Deer
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Rolf]
      #185003 - 01/07/11 09:56 PM

Thanks Rolf, does anyone other than Brenneke currently make ammo?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Dr_Deer]
      #185013 - 02/07/11 01:14 AM

Well if you have almost forgotten cartridges, this is the place for it ...

Visited a gun shop again today and asked about eight different die sets and not one was in stock ... even the common .223 Remington AND .303 British!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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hunter_angler
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: NitroX]
      #185025 - 02/07/11 04:32 AM

.348 WIN my favorite. Only ever chambered by factory in one rifle. But a good one, IMHO.

Maybe you can't really call it forgotten, because so few folks knew about it in the first place.

--------------------
old school rimmy


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Yochanan
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Dr_Deer]
      #185026 - 02/07/11 04:37 AM

Quote:

Thanks Rolf, does anyone other than Brenneke currently make ammo?




I used S&B ammo in my 8x46S, surprisingly good ammo for the price.

--------------------
Đ "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by īshockīunless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.


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458Shooter
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: hunter_angler]
      #185028 - 02/07/11 05:55 AM

Quote:

.348 WIN my favorite. Only ever chambered by factory in one rifle. But a good one, IMHO.

Maybe you can't really call it forgotten, because so few folks knew about it in the first place.




Isn't the 348 the fore runner of the 358 Winchester?


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 458Shooter]
      #185082 - 02/07/11 09:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

.348 WIN my favorite. Only ever chambered by factory in one rifle. But a good one, IMHO.

Maybe you can't really call it forgotten, because so few folks knew about it in the first place.




Isn't the 348 the fore runner of the 358 Winchester?




BTW does the .358 Win do anything more than a .348 Win did?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Tatume
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: NitroX]
      #185083 - 02/07/11 09:37 PM

Quote:

BTW does the .358 Win do anything more than a .348 Win did?




Some actions work well with rimless cartridges, and the 358 satisfies that need. The rimmed 348 works better in other actions. Ballistically, they are not too far apart.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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GK
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Tatume]
      #185085 - 02/07/11 10:49 PM

And the germans had the 9x57 before the .348Win.

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GG375
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: GK]
      #185100 - 03/07/11 06:20 AM

I've been using my 8mm Mauser for years up here on the Cape for pigs and brumbies. It's worked well on everything I've pointed it at! My young bloke has sort of "claimed" it now tho.

How's this for an awsome set of tusks?



Cheers.

GG

Edited by CptCurl (04/07/11 09:51 PM)


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pablo_mauser_66
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: GG375]
      #185105 - 03/07/11 09:35 AM

Well I'll put my hand up for the 10.75x68 Mauser (423 Mauser). Almost forgotten thou not quite an obselete catridge. Brass and Dies are still available, just !. I've recently did my bit for this classy old round and have just converted an old 1915 Oberndorf mauser to this chambering. Yesterday was my first day at the range and to say I'm pleased with the result is an understatement. Recoil whilst stout, felt only marginal worse than a hot 9.3x62 load and some subsonic Trail Boss loads were a hoot to shoot, loved hearing the 347gr Woodleigh smack into the back wall at the indoor range.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: pablo_mauser_66]
      #185119 - 03/07/11 03:47 PM

The 8x57 I thought is still quite popular in Germany? Certainly I remember cheaper sort of customised M98's available in the Frankonia catalogues being available in 8x57.

I think it is a great cartridge on par with the .303, .308, .30-06 and a little bit more unique outside of Central Europe.

The 10.75x68 is a true big bore classic. Had a terrible reputation in its earlier days due to the projectiles being too soft, but with the good well constructed bullets available today, a pretty useful cartridge.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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264
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: GG375]
      #185124 - 03/07/11 05:29 PM

Very impressive set of hooks. well done. Mick

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kuduae
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: NitroX]
      #185137 - 03/07/11 09:47 PM

While the 8x57IS (.323 bullet)is a standard cartridge in Germany now, the old 8x57I (.318") is almost forgotten. As no factory loads are currently produced, it is a pure handloader's cartridge by now.

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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: kuduae]
      #185152 - 04/07/11 02:40 AM

The 8x57 is a good round. For anyone loading one, I suggest buying one box of Norma ammo, and loading to it's web size on firing.

You'll then see you can about duplicate the .30/06 if similar barrel length.

For a handloader, they are equal. For someone who shoots factory only, and only buys US made, it's barely better than a .30/30 - 20"carbine.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #185167 - 04/07/11 08:47 AM

My 1903 model Turk Mauser (8x57) has a 29" barrel and the 1950s vintage ex-military Turkish ammo that used to be available (I think it still is in the US) used to clock 3000fps with 150gn (154gn?)projectiles out of it. That ammo was fairly hot though.

Edited by mauserand9mm (04/07/11 08:48 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #185174 - 04/07/11 09:26 AM

Seems to me the Norma stuff used to be loaded to somewhat over 50,000CUP. That puts it right up with most modern ammo - especially when loaded to those levels with modern powders. Due to having a larger groove and bore diameter than the '06, if loaded to the same pressure, it will provide about the same ballistics, even though lacking a bit in case capacity. My old blue covered Pacific manual not only shows this in it's loads, but explains it as well in the text.

There are no flies on modern 8x57 loadings - only on those of RP and WW, designed and loaded, possibly, for tight neck chambers with .318" groove diameter rifles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #185179 - 04/07/11 09:46 AM

Yes the US factory ammo (I had experience with the Winchester 8x57 ammo) is very underloaded for the run of the mill 0.323 8mm rifles. I think they do this to avoid getting sued if someone uses it in a poor condition rifle in 0.318 and blows it up. They use 0.321" projectiles too (surprised they don't use 0.318"). My rifles didn't shoot this stuff well and the primers backed out (ie very light load).

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nhdblfan
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: NitroX]
      #186298 - 22/07/11 09:52 AM

Well count me in for the 348 Win,have a nice prewar 71 that does make the trip to the stand come deer season.
Also use 8X56 M/S,6.5X54MS,8X57JS and even take the Cape out with the 8X57R360 !
(I do have some boring ones like the 06 too)


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Oldsarge
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: nhdblfan]
      #186310 - 22/07/11 03:02 PM

I agree about the .348 but I strongly suspect that I could find factory ammo for the 8x57 with fewer than a dozen phone calls. Now, for a hard to feed rifle, try a .318 Westley Richards! I had to have the dies made and the damned bullets cost over a buck a piece from Woodleigh. The only other brand I've seen offer them sent me two boxes that were enough oversize that I got blown primers! It makes fireforming no fun at all . . .

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!


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500Nitro
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Oldsarge]
      #186311 - 22/07/11 03:12 PM

Quote:

I agree about the .348 but I strongly suspect that I could find factory ammo for the 8x57 with fewer than a dozen phone calls. Now, for a hard to feed rifle, try a .318 Westley Richards! I had to have the dies made and the damned bullets cost over a buck a piece from Woodleigh. The only other brand I've seen offer them sent me two boxes that were enough oversize that I got blown primers! It makes fireforming no fun at all . . .





Old Sarge
How long ago did you have to get the dies made ?

I thought they were off the shelf ? Mine were.


Other bullets are available in .330 calibre
= nice and cheap one's.


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Oldsarge
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #186336 - 23/07/11 02:52 AM

Gosh, that's a good question. It must have been eight or nine years ago. The caliber was listed in the Huntington catalog but they didn't have any in stock so I had to wait an extra ?? days while my order worked its way up from the bottom of the inbox.

Whose "nice and cheap" .330 bullets do you recommend? And where do you get them from?

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!


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500Nitro
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Oldsarge]
      #186339 - 23/07/11 03:02 AM

Quote:


Whose "nice and cheap" .330 bullets do you recommend? And where do you get them from?




Now you are pushing me.

Try Graf's.

PRVI BULLET 8x56R (.330) 208gr FMJBT 100/BAG
24.99

Do a search around for 8x56R bullets.

I know there are more, I just can't remember where I saw the list.


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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #186341 - 23/07/11 03:19 AM

Yeah - they are supposd to be available here in Canada as well - but the supplier is out at this time - very reasonable, but pointed fmj's, I believe. wouldn't be bad if they are round.

Friend of mine just received his Lee dies (3) for drawing .338's down to .330" - his cost with shipping, was $100.00 CDN - about $150.00 US - (just kidding 'cause usually its the other way around)

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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500Nitro
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #186342 - 23/07/11 03:24 AM

I am currently searching for some SN one's.

I just can't find the list where I saw them.


Edit
Just found this on the net dated 2009

buffaloarms.com carries brass and 5 different grain sizes of bullets including the Hornady .330


Also this
HRN 8x56R (.330) 205gr SP BULLET SpirePt PER 100
(Looks like a Hornady bullet and from memory that sounds right).


And PRVI definately make a SP bullet as it is listed on their web site.
B-561 8 mm SP 208 0.33


Edited by 500Nitro (23/07/11 03:29 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Oldsarge]
      #186542 - 26/07/11 01:07 AM

Quote:

Gosh, that's a good question. It must have been eight or nine years ago. The caliber was listed in the Huntington catalog but they didn't have any in stock so I had to wait an extra ?? days while my order worked its way up from the bottom of the inbox.

Whose "nice and cheap" .330 bullets do you recommend? And where do you get them from?




Sarge

Bruce Bertram makes .318 WR (.330) projectiles in 180 gr and 250 gr weights.

Simply constructed bullets, not weldcore sort of standard but at a good price. Not sure how hard they would be to post internationally.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Oldsarge
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: NitroX]
      #186650 - 27/07/11 09:22 AM

It turns out that Hornady makes .330 bullets for the, I believe, 8x49. They come in 215 gr. and are about 2/3 the cost of Woodleighs. I must get some, for fireforming if for no other reason. On the other hand, they would make really dandy pig smashers . . .

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!


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500Nitro
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Oldsarge]
      #186651 - 27/07/11 09:51 AM

Quote:

It turns out that Hornady makes .330 bullets for the, I believe, 8x49. They come in 215 gr. and are about 2/3 the cost of Woodleighs.




I thought Hornady made a heavier bullet but I haven't been able to find it on their list or anyone's web site.


Do you have a link ?


.


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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 500Nitro]
      #186653 - 27/07/11 10:20 AM

I'll have to check into that, Hornady, you say - perhaps they are for export only?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Oldsarge
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #186712 - 28/07/11 09:00 AM

My bad! It's Graf for the 8x56R. Huntington carries them, here https://www.huntingtons.com/bullets_graf.html. At 206 grains, they make a decent black bear/deer load, methinks, and they are inexpensive enough to use in fireforming.

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Oldsarge]
      #186713 - 28/07/11 09:27 AM

I got a "not found" on that url. So - this is ammo, not bullets?

The 8x56R ammo is mostly available only with 206gr. fmj's, not hunting bullets. The loose fmj bullets themselves are listed for sale at tradeexcanada.

Of course, they might shoot OK if simply reversed. I would not cut the nose off - even though Ackley said they could not get the core to spit out of such modified FMJ's. The reversed bullets were used as steel plate penetrators during the first war for shooting snipers behind such plates. Reversed and shot backwards would probably do for deer, bbear, elk or moose out to 150yards or so, if accurate enough - they just might be. Used this way, even steel cored fmj's can be deadly, creating massive cavitation coupled with unparalleled penetration, as anyone reading Harold Johnson's stuff about brown bears and his .50 Alaskan knows.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Oldsarge
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #186724 - 28/07/11 11:42 AM

Hmmm . . . Well, just go to huntingtons.com and click on 'bullets' and then 'graf'. They list their 206 gr. bullets as SP, not FMJ so I suspect that they would be good hunting bullets. And yes, these are bullets, not loaded ammunition.

--------------------
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magnum308
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: gryphon]
      #187887 - 13/08/11 10:16 AM

Quote:


Sort of same reason I have 308 and 358 cals

but for me both are Norma Magnums on a world scale they dont rate in huge numbers!




+1
Nothing wrong with the .308 Norma Mag, the first standard length .30cal belted mag (though I think I'd have to concede this to the 30-338). Nevertheless, a great .30 cal magnum cartridge and holds its own with the rest.



Load is 180 gr Hornady SPBT interlocks @ 3,153 fps (chronographed) and shoots less than ū” at 100 yards



Custom rifle built by Ron Webb on FM Mauser 98 action.

--------------------
____________________________________________
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9.3x57
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: magnum308]
      #187888 - 13/08/11 11:44 AM

Daryl;

This thread is about Forgotten Cartridges....

What about the 9.3x57???

Have we forgotten?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Yochanan
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #187897 - 13/08/11 09:51 PM

Quote:

Daryl;

This thread is about Forgotten Cartridges....

What about the 9.3x57???

Have we forgotten?




Nope, very much alive and kicking in this part of the world.

Shops around my area sold more new rifles, last year, in 8x57IS than 308win.

--------------------
Đ "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by īshockīunless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.


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9.3x57
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Yochanan]
      #187901 - 14/08/11 12:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Daryl;

This thread is about Forgotten Cartridges....

What about the 9.3x57???

Have we forgotten?




Nope, very much alive and kicking in this part of the world.

Shops around my area sold more new rifles, last year, in 8x57IS than 308win.




Don't worry, I haven't forgotten the 9.3x57. Getting ready to go to the range now with two. Bear season approaches!

Also, regarding your statement above, were they newly chambered 8x57's or old, used rifles? If new, what companies are chambering in 8x57?

Thanks.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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fuhrmann
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #187902 - 14/08/11 02:32 AM

The 8x57 IS and also the rimmed 8x57 IRS are very much alive in Germany. Couldn't tell you any new German made rifle that is not offered in one of the two twin cartridges.

fuhrmann


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9.3x57
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: fuhrmann]
      #187903 - 14/08/11 02:36 AM

Are any American rifles offered in Europe in 8x57?

Ruger, Remington, Savage?

Ruger chambered some 7x64's a while back and I'm wondering...

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #187904 - 14/08/11 03:11 AM

Reminton made some M700s in 8x57, some years back.

note: SAAMI specs

8x57JS - 35,000PSI - 241.317 MPa

note: CIP specs

8x57JS - 57,000PSI - 393.001 MPa

whatever MPa is?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CommandCar
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #189216 - 04/09/11 10:30 PM

MPa = megapascal

1 MPa = 10 bar


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458Shooter
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #190129 - 18/09/11 10:13 AM

Quote:

Just use a 30-06 with 220 grainers ! easier ? best, Mike





Cuz everyone and their dog has a 30-06, I like something different. I prefer the 7x57 over the
7mm-08 for the same reason. Not to say those cartridges have any flies on them, I like the older stuff because of the history behind them.


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grandveneur
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 458Shooter]
      #348355 - 23/12/20 08:47 AM

Quote:

The 8x57 Mauser and the 358 Winchester have been forgotten in the hunting camps, I guess the times have changed and shooters want the latest laser with the biggest scope.
The original military condition Brno 8x57 Mauser I picked up recently shoots 220 grain bullets right around 2400 fps. The 358 Winchester shoots the 225 grain Barnes X bullets at just over 2500 fps, I can't believe these cartridges have been overlooked for so long.
I will continue to hunt and target shoot with the 8x57, although most of the time people will look at my Mauser at the gun range and wonder what planet it fell to earth from.
I baffle them further when I show them the 30-06 brass I used to make 8x57 Mauser.




Despite everything , the cartridge 8x57IS has had a certain come-back in recent years in Germany. This is partly due to the vogue of the short barrels and the silencers.

The cartridge 308 Winchester is but still at the forefront.


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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: CommandCar]
      #348371 - 23/12/20 02:09 PM

Quote:

MPa = megapascal

1 MPa = 10 bar




1 bar = 14.5038 psi

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: grandveneur]
      #348372 - 23/12/20 02:13 PM

CommandCar:
MPa = megapascal

1 MPa = 10 bar



1 bar = 14.5038 psi

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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crshelton
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: grandveneur]
      #348374 - 23/12/20 02:19 PM

Who cares how other shooters at the range look at your rifle or ammo?

My old reliable is my M70 .308, but my fun guns include doubles in .405 WCF and 45-70, an 1886 45-90, 1895 in .405 WCF , 1892 in .357 Mag, etc.
The doubles are very accurate at 50 yards and folks are often puzzled by the 1886 and 1895, both of which have African DG credentials.

After all, we shoot for the fun of it , right?

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: crshelton]
      #348376 - 23/12/20 02:59 PM

Yes we do, but for me, not as much as I used to shoot. Hmmmmm.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Woldan
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 458Shooter]
      #348390 - 24/12/20 12:13 AM

The probably most exotic cartridge I reload and shoot is the 7.5x55 Swiss, a very neat round, it looks like the love child of a .30-06 and a .308, its the perfect in-between. Fortunately .308 bullets can be used with no overpressure and very good accuracy from my straight pull bolt action K11. It loves flat base bullets.

Then I also have the .44-40, which is such a classic. Such a gentle and extremely accurate round, 200 grains at 1380 fps with nearly no recoil. I'm sure if my Uberti Lever action was scoped it would shoot MOA with it. At 50yds with 200 grain lead round nose it shoots 5 rounds all touching and at 100 it still is less than 3 inches with buckhorn sights!

The most exotic I ever had was the 7,65x53 argentine in an 1893 Argentine Mauser. It was like a 7,62x51 that uses .311 bullets instead .308. I remember I used .308 load data for my first reloads.
Sweet shooter, but cases and dies were hard to find

Edited by Woldan (24/12/20 12:16 AM)


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Vintage_Canvas
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Woldan]
      #348426 - 24/12/20 04:12 PM

While we are on the 8x57 round and the rifles that are still available... thought you would appreciate this one!
[image][/image]
[image][/image]
[image][/image]

Just manage to buy it at a decent price in very good condition.
It is a Brno model 21, with a spoon bolt in 8x57S.
As I also have a 7x57 and a 8x60S, was thinking that the 8x57 would fit in nice in the middle of the other 2 classic cartridges!

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Vintage_Canvas
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #348427 - 24/12/20 04:27 PM

On the subject of forgotten cartridges...
Almost all of the original Mannlicher cartridges is having a re-birth. 6.5x54MS, 8x56MS, 9x56MS and the 9,5x57MS. I use all of them to hunt anything from springbuck to Eland.
Then don't forget the .22 Hornet! the perfect round to teach the young to shoot, and I'm using mine to collect the tiny 10! Deadly up to 150m and almost no carcass damage on the small critters.
Then my personal favourite... the 300H&H
seems that none of the main brand rifle makers make them any more! Manage to pick up a Voere in 300H&H as well as and old Musgrave single shot target rifle. Both deadly and IMHO better than the newer 300 magnums! Nothing feeds as smooth as a 300H&H cartridge, and there is just that nostalgic look and feel about the cartridge.

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Louis
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #348428 - 24/12/20 06:52 PM

Congratulations on your good taste, VC; yes, the most desirable Brno Model 21 in 8x57S would certainly fit well on your rack, along with her 7x57 and 8x60S cousins!
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"


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Igorrock
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Louis]
      #348430 - 25/12/20 12:42 AM

Actually, .22 Hornet is quite popular caliber in scandinavia. Itīs very nice when shooting birds for short ranges. Barking bird dog in a good company when hunting that way.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Igorrock]
      #348439 - 25/12/20 04:26 AM

.22 Hornet in a Ruger #1, older Ruger #3, Thompson Centre Contenders and Encores, Ruger M7722 Hornet, CZ model 527, or the little Anschutz bold action all made modern .22 Rifles.
By modern I am referring to the use of Remington brass and 40 through 50gr. bullets with Lil'Gun powder.
No longer is this a 150 to 200 yard ctgs for vermin. My CZ's ran under 1/2" sat 100 meters and put 40gr. bullets out at just over 3,300fps. My longest gopher kill with it was 454yards using the Nosler 40gr. Ballistic Tip.
Euro brass is too small in capacity to utilize this powder to it's best performance as RP brass holds almost a full gr. more than WW brass and WW is almost 1/2gr. capacity over the Euro stuff like RWS. In a 10gr. capacity ctg. 1 1/2gr. over RWS is a lot. It's also 100fps faster than WW brass.
So - the hornet comes of age depending on what rifle you are shooting it in.
WW brass uses up to 13.5gr. Lil'Gun with 40gr. bullets and R-P brass holds up to 14.4gr.
Crimped with the Lee Factory Crimping Tool, SD's are lower than 20fps. Without the crimp,performance suffers with huge shot to shot variations in speed. This is due to the small weak case.
I have put over 10,000 of these loads through my 2 CZ Hornets, my buddies Contender and another friend's Ruger M7722Hornet, so I know the loads are safe in these modern rifles. The older ones, probably not, even though Hodgdon lists low pressures for these loads. They also list lower speeds than I obtained in all 4 of these rifles.
With those loads in a modern rifle, the old Hornet pretty much matches the .221 Fireball from a rifle.
LG powder is quite incredible in the smaller case - high vel. low pressure.
With it, I never lost a single case to primer pocket expansion, yet that 'problem' is normal in this case with standard Hornet powders of old.
So - mild or wild, the Hornet is still a king.
All the guys with them on CZ's rave about the accuracy. Both of mine were the Euro "Lux" model.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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sbs470
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #348447 - 25/12/20 08:30 AM

I have just rad this thread from the start and I haven't seen 6.5 x57 mauser .This is a Mauser proprietary cartridge which has been pretty much forgotten. The other hot shot 6.5s have overtaken it but a worthy cartridge.
I also have an 8 x60s
sold the 7x57 brno 600 but I'm still searching for a 275 Rigby and a 300 super
I dont own a 30-06 or a 308
I do have a 318 WR


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93x64mm
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #348448 - 25/12/20 08:33 AM

You would have to say most of us here would have 'oddball' cartridges, just to get dies & components is a wait, luckily it is still achievable due to Bertram Brass & Woodleigh projectiles!
Also CBE moulds here in Oz are great to get us casting as well.
As to these cartridges for me, basically a combination of either rifles not chambered now-a-days &/or low number overall produced compared to conventional calibers.

.32-20
.308 Norma Mag
9.3x64mm
.404 Jeffery
.500 Nitro 3"
.577-450 Martini Henry

These might be almost forgotten to the 'general public', but not here though!


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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: 93x64mm]
      #348454 - 25/12/20 11:17 AM

I'm a bit short on small calibres, these days & have no Nitro or BP Express rifles, unfortunately.
Other than a bunch of rimfires, I have:

3 - 6.5x55's

1 - 8.15x47R
1 - .313 Express oh yeah - I do have a "nitro" burning express - lol - on a #4 Enfield

2 - 9.x62's
1 - .375/06 IMP

1 - .45 1.9"

1 - .50/95
bunch shotguns, muzzleloading rifles, shotgun and handgun and air rifles, springers and PCP & PCP handguns

so - no new prohibs - yet.

I guess the 9.3x62's re not rare or forgotten.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Slowflyer
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Loc: ACT, Australia
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #348461 - 25/12/20 03:19 PM

I like the unusual. In my collection there are:
10.75x68
375Flanged Nitro Express 2 1/2;
8x57 built by Husqvarna on a civilian variation of the M38 action;
6.5x ???? (Should be 53R but someone has reamed the chamber longer but with more taper);
6.5x57R;
5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum - getting ammunition for this in Australia is next to impossible!!!

Not a 308W nor a 243W to be seen. Not that there is anything wrong with them, in fact they are wonderful cartridges but .....

Merry Christmas,
MJG


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szihn
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Slowflyer]
      #348463 - 25/12/20 04:39 PM

I own and use several rifles chambered in what you might call "less then mainstream" cartridges.
Some are probably more popular in Europe and maybe Oz, but here they are a bit uncommon.

From small to large I have;
1 222 Remington
1 257 Roberts
1 6.5X54 M/S
2 300 Savages
1 303 British
1 300H&H
1 8X57
1 35 Remington
1 358 Winchester
1 9X57
2 9.3X57s
1 9.3X74R
1 404 Jeffery

I also own several rifles in popular cartridges too. So I am not bent on one side or the other.
I have:
223s
25-06
6.8SPCs
270s
30-30
308s
30-06s
7.62X39
9.3X62
375H&H

I like them all.

Edited by szihn (25/12/20 04:41 PM)


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Vintage_Canvas
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Reged: 18/02/20
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Louis]
      #348466 - 25/12/20 06:11 PM

Quote:

Congratulations on your good taste, VC; yes, the most desirable Brno Model 21 in 8x57S would certainly fit well on your rack, along with her 7x57 and 8x60S cousins!
Louis



Thank you Louis! yes the BRNO model 21 are a great rifle. They dont make them like that anymore!
My 7x57 and 8x60S is actually Mannlicher S rifles. but the Brno fits in with them, as all of them have the spoon bolt handle.

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Vintage_Canvas
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: DarylS]
      #348467 - 25/12/20 06:19 PM

Quote:

.22 Hornet in a Ruger #1, older Ruger #3, Thompson Centre Contenders and Encores, Ruger M7722 Hornet, CZ model 527, or the little Anschutz bold action all made modern .22 Rifles.
By modern I am referring to the use of Remington brass and 40 through 50gr. bullets with Lil'Gun powder.
No longer is this a 150 to 200 yard ctgs for vermin. My CZ's ran under 1/2" sat 100 meters and put 40gr. bullets out at just over 3,300fps. My longest gopher kill with it was 454yards using the Nosler 40gr. Ballistic Tip.
Euro brass is too small in capacity to utilize this powder to it's best performance as RP brass holds almost a full gr. more than WW brass and WW is almost 1/2gr. capacity over the Euro stuff like RWS. In a 10gr. capacity ctg. 1 1/2gr. over RWS is a lot. It's also 100fps faster than WW brass.
So - the hornet comes of age depending on what rifle you are shooting it in.
WW brass uses up to 13.5gr. Lil'Gun with 40gr. bullets and R-P brass holds up to 14.4gr.
Crimped with the Lee Factory Crimping Tool, SD's are lower than 20fps. Without the crimp,performance suffers with huge shot to shot variations in speed. This is due to the small weak case.
I have put over 10,000 of these loads through my 2 CZ Hornets, my buddies Contender and another friend's Ruger M7722Hornet, so I know the loads are safe in these modern rifles. The older ones, probably not, even though Hodgdon lists low pressures for these loads. They also list lower speeds than I obtained in all 4 of these rifles.
With those loads in a modern rifle, the old Hornet pretty much matches the .221 Fireball from a rifle.
LG powder is quite incredible in the smaller case - high vel. low pressure.
With it, I never lost a single case to primer pocket expansion, yet that 'problem' is normal in this case with standard Hornet powders of old.
So - mild or wild, the Hornet is still a king.
All the guys with them on CZ's rave about the accuracy. Both of mine were the Euro "Lux" model.



Hi Daryl, thanks for all the loading info! I will try some of your suggestions and powder options. Brass is a problem here! My hornet is a Brno 465 with double triggers. Will try and post pics later

--------------------
"the real Africa is still out there... you just need to know where to find it"


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Rule303
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: szihn]
      #348468 - 25/12/20 08:19 PM

I have a 22 Hornet, Aussie made. It is a Lithgow 303. Converted by Slazenger to 22 Hornet. My father use to put 10 shots into about 3/4" at 100 Yards, open sights, with IMI ammo. It was not until I started using Small Pistol primers that my 5 shot groups went into about the same, with a scope. Big and heavy for a Hornet but comes to the shoulder well.

I also have a 6.8SPC and in Aust I would say it is an almost extinct calibre. Which is unfortunate as it is better than a 223 for most game. The only reason I have any 223's is I occasionally help out a professional shooter -culling Kangaroos- and the ammo is cheaper and far easier to get.


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DarylS
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Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Rule303]
      #348477 - 26/12/20 04:53 AM

Vintage Canvas: I should also have noted, I adjust my .22Hornet FL sizing die so only 3/16" of the case neck is sized. This kinda leaves the look of having 2 shoulders, one larger than the other. It helps with case capacity as well as accuracy as the case is more properly aligned in THAT chamber.
Seemingly little things are what makes a difference.
My first CZ .22 Hornet preferred pistol primers, while the second one did not care. Guns are different, even the same models from the same manufacturer.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: Almost forgotten cartridges .... [Re: Vintage_Canvas]
      #348506 - 27/12/20 08:43 AM

Quote:

While we are on the 8x57 round and the rifles that are still available... thought you would appreciate this one!
[image][/image]

Just manage to buy it at a decent price in very good condition.
It is a Brno model 21, with a spoon bolt in 8x57S.
As I also have a 7x57 and a 8x60S, was thinking that the 8x57 would fit in nice in the middle of the other 2 classic cartridges!




Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Donuts, Vintage Canvas!

Any of the older cartridges, that are ignored by the shooting media, are good candidates for this.
In addition to all those classic cartridges, mentioned above, we could add the .270 Winchester to this list.

D'oh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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