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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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kaizer2007
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Reged: 04/06/09
Posts: 101
Loc: Ukraine
Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: 86thecat]
      #159837 - 02/05/10 03:06 PM

30-06
9.3x62
.416


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Charls
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: xausa]
      #159841 - 02/05/10 04:37 PM

light: 7x57
med: 375 H&H
heavy: 458 Lott
Ideally, include a 300H&H and a 12g and you need no more. About WANTING more, now that is a different matter.
Charls


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kamilaroi
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: Charls]
      #159843 - 02/05/10 06:29 PM

22rf
22 K Hornet
257 Roberts AI
9.5 x 57 MS
404 Jeff
500/450 Alex Henry falling block (for the nostalgia factor)
12 gauge pommy back action sxs

and maybe a 9.3 x 74R double


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gryphon
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: kamilaroi]
      #159844 - 02/05/10 06:46 PM

7mm Rem mag

358 Norma mag

375 H+H

I`m happy to go anywhere with the above and crawl closer to the targets too,much more fun and skill involved in stalking than sitting back blasting from yonder!

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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xausa
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: xausa]
      #159861 - 03/05/10 03:17 AM

Quote:

Light: .300 H&H Magnum
Medium: .375 H&H Magnum
Heavy: .458 Winchester Magnum, .500 Jeffery or .500 NE

If I were to add one more, it would be a 7X57 for smaller plains game.




No one has mentioned it, but one of my main concerns when I actually took this battery to Africa was availability of ammunition. The prospect of guns arriving without ammunition was not then out of the question, and I assume it is still so.

I thought the first three mentioned had the best prospects for ammunition availability at the time. I suspect that the 7mm Remington Magnum or the .300 Winchester Magnum have eclipsed the .300 H&H by this time (more's the pity) and either one would be just as satisfactory.

Also, since my Krieghoff Teck .458 has interchangeable barrels in .375 H&H, I suppose I could in good concience count that as only one gun, and if I included my Mauser 66 in 8X68S with its interchangeable barrel in 7mm vom Hofe, then I would need only two rifles, so I could throw in a .223 for the really small stuff. However, that would defeat my purpose as far as availability of emergency ammunition was concerned.


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Grenadier
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: xausa]
      #159864 - 03/05/10 04:49 AM

Only if military rounds are not allowed. Then...

Light: 300 Holland & Holland
Medium: 375 Holland & Holland
Heavy: 450 N.E. (never needed anything this big but the 450 is the standard by which all others are judged)

But if I could toss in the Paradox gun with both bullets and shot it would add a whole new dimension. In fact, if I was stuck with just the 375 and a Paradox gun I wouldn't be bad off at all.




--------------------
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Daryl_S
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: 86thecat]
      #159916 - 04/05/10 02:04 AM

I'll revise my earlier post.

A Hornet would be handy, with soft points and TSX's for the smaller varieties - so it would be a wide range of bullets & of course, handloading allowed - only 2 powders needed for all curcumstance and game - Lil'Gun for the Hornet and H4895 for the .375:
.22 CZ Hornet 'Lux" - 40gr. - 45gr. SP's and X - 3,200fps to 3,300fps

.375/06 IMP - 235gr. TSX to 300gr. solids (any make that works) - 2,840fps to 2,450fps

12 bore with variety of loads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: Daryl_S]
      #159917 - 04/05/10 03:08 AM

Have to agree with Grenadier, with a .375 H&H and a 12 bore Paradox what is there you can't take ?
best, Mike (mind you, you'd still want loads of other stuff )


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bonanza
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: kaizer2007]
      #159919 - 04/05/10 04:20 AM

Here's what I have.

BA .300 H&H
BA .375 H&H
SS .458 WM

DR .35 WCF
DR .405 WCF
DR .577 BPE

Wish.

DR 470 NE

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: bonanza]
      #159921 - 04/05/10 06:38 AM

Great choices! Ok - I'll have another stab... If I'm restricted to 3 only for the world - ever - what about

single shot .300 Win Mag - should cover most long range stuff, including sheep, goats, deer, elk, etc.
double rifle 9.3x74 - should more than adequately cover anything at short to medium range (in style!)
bolt action - .458 Lott - for DG on all continents and some specialities such as bongo and derby eland

Also covers 3 action types and ammunition should be pretty available. I'd choose the single shot for the light rifle as I wouldn't want to use it for DG. It might have oil finished laminated stock for added toughness if this is to also be a mountain rifle. I'd choose the double for the medium as I'd get to use it more than if it was only a DG rifle. Finally, I'd choose the bolt action for the large calibre for 3 reasons - I'd like a bolt rifle as one of my 3; I'd like more than one shot for DG; I'd like a laminated stock so that I could carry the rifle to Alaska and Cameroon without worrying about a fine walnut stock in the wet!

Finally, if I were allowed 5 rifles only - ever - I'd add a .223 for target shooting and a 6.5 as a deer rifle and be a happy man.... probably


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gryphon
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #159922 - 04/05/10 08:12 AM

I didnt think a huge deal of the Paradox figure`s that H+H have and IMO would rather something else to trudge around with.
I wonder how much of that energy is left at 100 yards?

Bullet weight: 12-bore = 740 grains / 48 gram
Bullet diameter: .735" (Fosbery Pattern, solid lead)
Muzzle velocity: *1050 ft./sec. / 320 m/sec.
Muzzle energy: *1840 ft./lbs. / 2500 joules
Service pressure: 3 tons " / 850 bar
Cartridge case: 12-bore 2 " / 65mm
1 leaf zeroed to p.o.a. @ 50 yards / (45-50m)
+ 2nd leaf to p.o.a. @ 100 yards / (90 - 100m)

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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Lawman
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: gryphon]
      #159927 - 04/05/10 12:01 PM

Light .270 Win
Medium .338 Win Mag
Heavy 450-400
Bit of overlap here. .270 W up to and including elk.
.338 WM down to elk and up to Buffalo with heavy solids.
450-400 in the thick stuff.

Edited by Lawman (04/05/10 12:10 PM)


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375shooter
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: Lawman]
      #159928 - 04/05/10 12:44 PM

I would go with

30-06
375 H&H
458 Lott.

All bolt actions, with 1.75-6 Leupold scopes on the 30-06 and 375.

--------------------
Boresighter Rifle Scopes


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azmunk
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Reged: 14/03/10
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Loc: Arizona
Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: 86thecat]
      #159931 - 04/05/10 02:47 PM

Light-.270 Win
Medium- 9.3x62mm
Heavy-.458 Win Mag


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MickGibbo
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Reged: 13/11/09
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Loc: Sutherland, NSW, Australia
Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: azmunk]
      #159932 - 04/05/10 03:03 PM

Light 270wsm
Medium 300 wsm
Heavy 375 Ruger


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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: gryphon]
      #159933 - 04/05/10 03:11 PM

Quote:

I didnt think a huge deal of the Paradox figure`s that H+H have and IMO would rather something else to trudge around with.
I wonder how much of that energy is left at 100 yards?

Bullet weight: 12-bore = 740 grains / 48 gram
Bullet diameter: .735" (Fosbery Pattern, solid lead)
Muzzle velocity: *1050 ft./sec. / 320 m/sec.
Muzzle energy: *1840 ft./lbs. / 2500 joules
Service pressure: 3 tons " / 850 bar
Cartridge case: 12-bore 2 " / 65mm
1 leaf zeroed to p.o.a. @ 50 yards / (45-50m)
+ 2nd leaf to p.o.a. @ 100 yards / (90 - 100m)




Well, each to his own preferences and opinions. I don't like cigars and all wines taste the same to me. But I will point out that comparing muzzle velocity and energy of the Paradox bullet to smaller calibers can be misleading. You can shoot a 10 grain aspirin at 10,000 ft./sec. and generate 2220 ft./lbs. of energy, besting both the velocity and energy figures of a Paradox bullet. Yet, we know that an aspirin is better for curing a headache than delivering one. The aspirin has but little momentum, whereas momentum is the Paradox bullet's forte.

Using the above example, the aspirin would have only 14 ft.lbs./sec. of momentum while the Paradox bullet has a healthy 111 ft.lbs./sec. To put this into perspective, consider that firing Federal's 375H&H load with a 300 grain Trophy Bonded Bearclaw bullet will have less momentum, or 102 ft.lbs./sec.

Some people consider Taylor Knockout (TKO) factor as a more realistic tool for comparing how effective bullets are on game. TKO takes into consideration bullet weight, diameter, velocity, and momentum. Again, using the same bullets and velocities as above, the TKO factor of the aspirin is only 3, the 375H&H is 38, and the 12 bore Paradox is 81.

The 12 bore Paradox is not a good choice for elephant, buffalo, and other thick skinned or dangerous game. But, I can say with experience that an H&H Paradox bullet fired at 95 yards into a blacktail deer will pass clear through. I have spoken with several Paradox owners who describe the same through-and-through penetration of Paradox bullets on a variety of game animals, including several large boars and some pretty big African animals.

Yes, the Paradox does have its limitations. The soft lead bullet expands too easily for penetrating thick skin and buffalo shoulders. And, it is not very practical beyond 100 yards but what large bore double gun is?

It also has several advantages. The 12 bore Paradox gun weighs less than 7.5 lbs. and it carries and swings on target like a fine shotgun, which of course it is. That also brings up the most important advantage of all. Which is, a Paradox gun can also fire a load of shot to harvest birds, rabbits, and other small beasts with an aplomb that no rifle can match.

Now, regarding my statement that if I was limited to the 375H&H and a Paradox gun I wouldn't be bad off at all. Noting the Paradox gun's poor suitability for deep penetration in dangerous game and its limited range, I would choose the 375H&H for those tasks. But, when walking about the bush for nearly anything else, the Paradox is a boon. Add to that the ability to shoot bird shot and the two guns, a 375H&H and a Paradox, would complement each other nicely.

There are many fine guns in many wonderful calibers. I do not dismiss their utility. But I suggest that if you dismiss the utility of a Paradox gun then you are missing out on one of the finer things in life. But then again, I don't like cigars and all wines taste the same to me.

--------------------
~


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450_366
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: Grenadier]
      #159936 - 04/05/10 03:52 PM

Quote:



Bullet weight: 12-bore = 740 grains / 48 gram
Bullet diameter: .735" (Fosbery Pattern, solid lead)
Muzzle velocity: *1050 ft./sec. / 320 m/sec.
Muzzle energy: *1840 ft./lbs. / 2500 joules
Service pressure: 3 tons " / 850 bar
Cartridge case: 12-bore 2 " / 65mm





Funny they use the standard shotgun pressure on them, not even the 1050bar (steel shot) 12g load.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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gatsby
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: grandveneur]
      #159937 - 04/05/10 04:17 PM



Light 270 Winchester

Medium 358 NMag

Heavy 8 bore paradox

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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gatsby
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: Grenadier]
      #159940 - 04/05/10 05:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:








Now, regarding my statement that if I was limited to the 375H&H and a Paradox gun I wouldn't be bad off at all. Noting the Paradox gun's poor suitability for deep penetration in dangerous game and its limited range, I would choose the 375H&H for those tasks. But, when walking about the bush for nearly anything else, the Paradox is a boon. Add to that the ability to shoot bird shot and the two guns, a 375H&H and a Paradox, would complement each other nicely.






I nearly added a 12 bore paradox instead of the 270 but you had already covered it.

As to your statement above; The more things change, the more they are the same or Like minds think the same thoughts, may be appropriate here.
In 1904 Lady Jenkins went on a one woman Shikari into both Tibets carrying a 375 (2 1/2") and a paradox. She chronicled the events in her book:





and her paradox



--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: gatsby]
      #159943 - 04/05/10 05:51 PM

450, they do make a heavier load I believe in a 2 3/4" case with a 750 grainer at 1200 fps. grenadier, that's why I like the idea, you can be out bird shooting, rabbit shooting and not have to pass up a crack at a deer or boar, rgds, Mike

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Grenadier
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: gatsby]
      #159958 - 04/05/10 10:34 PM

Gatsby - I hope you aren't saying I think like a woman.

Are you going to make the August 7 shoot in WA? If so, please bring that gun.


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bonanza
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #159961 - 04/05/10 11:41 PM

Ok, my ideal minimal (but nice) battery.

Perazzi 12 gauge over/under

Remington XB-40 .22-250 w/ Nightforce NXS scope for varmints.

Dakota 76 safari takedown w/ 7mm Rem Mag and .375 H&H and Leupold 2.8-8 VXIII

.470 Nitro Double rifle.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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gryphon
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: bonanza]
      #159971 - 05/05/10 04:27 AM

Grenadier I was having my entitled too opinion, thus no need to take anything I posted as a personal attack on a Paradox Gun choice.


As far as this below Q:

Yes, the Paradox does have its limitations. The soft lead bullet expands too easily for penetrating thick skin and buffalo shoulders. And, it is not very practical beyond 100 yards but what large bore double gun is? EQ:


I`m sure there has to be a few large bore double guns out there capable of 100 plus yards!

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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Grenadier
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: gryphon]
      #159972 - 05/05/10 06:00 AM

Quote:

Grenadier I was having my entitled too opinion, thus no need to take anything I posted as a personal attack on a Paradox Gun choice.


As far as this below Q:

Yes, the Paradox does have its limitations. The soft lead bullet expands too easily for penetrating thick skin and buffalo shoulders. And, it is not very practical beyond 100 yards but what large bore double gun is? EQ:


I`m sure there has to be a few large bore double guns out there capable of 100 plus yards!




Don't worry, I didn't feel any attack and I wasn't being defensive. I am not that thin skinned and, though I enjoy shooting Paradox guns, I am not emotionally attached to them. I don't enjoy argument but I very much enjoy discussion.

Many people try to compare a Paradox gun to a high velocity rifle, a shotgun, or a big bore double but it goes beyond comparing apples to oranges. It's more like comparing apples to oranges, grapes, and squash. The Paradox gun is not better than a shotgun, a high velocity rifle, or a big double. But the Paradox gun brings something different to the table, and that is versatility. I don't know of any other ONE firearm that can do so much. Regarding its capability to do what is claimed, I can only say that 125 years of user history and reporting from the field proves that it does. No commentary I could make would do as much. Some people grasp the concept and others just don't.

My comment about large bore doubles not being practical beyond 100 yards is based on the ability to hit the target in a vital zone and not on the ability of the bullet to deliver a killing blow beyond that distance. Even a Paradox carries enough oomph to kill beyond 100 yards. But the issue of accuracy is manifold.

Please let me explain my reasoning. Most big doubles are regulated for targets closer than 100 yards. Grouping of heavy doubles at their regulated range produces groups that are acceptable for hunting but are, at best, generally within 3 MOA, or 1-1/2" at 50 yards. I know from participating in numerous rifle matches that most shooters cannot shoot better than 5" groups at 100 yards off-hand without a rest with any large rifle. Large bore doubles tend to weigh a lot. Large bore doubles produce significant recoil. Field conditions are tougher than conditions on a shooting range, especially regarding range estimation. Trajectories of big cartridges, while somewhat flatter than that of the Paradox, are far from "flat". Most people don't scope their 450/400, 450, 465, 470, 500, 577, or 600 double rifles.

In the field, shooting any heavy double much beyond 100 yards with an arcing trajectory and heavy recoil, at an estimated range, with open sights, when the shooter is only capable of 5 MOA and the rifle is capable of 3 MOA, is not a very practicable recipe. Some big guns and shooters may be able to do it but I believe those will be the exception. If you feel that what I said is off base then I sincerely welcome any qualified correction. Remember, I do really like discussion.

Getting back on topic, nearly everyone listed a very large bore rifle as their choice for a Heavy. I bet for shots over 100 yards they would rely on one or more of the smaller caliber rifles they listed. It would be interesting to hear some of the big bore shooters weigh in on this as it relates to the three rifle concept - Light, Medium, and Heavy.

--------------------
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FATBOY404
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Re: Caliber's choice for hunting [Re: gryphon]
      #159973 - 05/05/10 06:07 AM

The reason I picked these three is they are so versitile.If you choose 2 bullet weights for each you have 6 rifles if you go with QD mounts and a couple of scopes.


7x57 120g & 175g covers 270-3006
9.3x62 250g TSX & 320g Woodleigh covers 3006-375h&h
404j 350g Woodleigh and 450g Woodleigh (I would just use the Woodleigh 400g Hydro for anything in the world)!!.Covers 375h&h-458.

JUST MY OPINION !!!.
Cheers Neale.

--------------------
"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"


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