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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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Con
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: pinotguy]
      #103505 - 25/04/08 03:48 PM

Quote:

I like using "heavy-for-caliber" bullets so this is something I'd like to try. FWIW, Double Tap offers a 35 Whelen load that uses the 310-gr. Woodleigh - softs and solids.



And here's the rub ... using Remington's 1:16" twist these projectiles are borderline for stability. I tested the 310gr Woodleigh soft from a friend's Rem700 35Whelen and it showed evidence of tipping at 200m ... which is a LONG way away for a 310gr at 2200fps. The solid being even longer still ... I really don't know how that'll go.

In a custom rifle with 1:12" ... everything from lightweight pistol projectiles to the heavy-weight Woodleigh's are useable ... making it an awfully versatile cartridge with a usefully flat trajectory and tolerable recoil.
Cheers...
Con

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #103514 - 25/04/08 09:28 PM

How completely wrong!!!!



Curl

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: CptCurl]
      #103518 - 26/04/08 12:15 AM

Curl - you're sense of humour is very badly twisted.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Con]
      #103520 - 26/04/08 12:18 AM

I suspect that the vast majority of "big game" animals taken in the US are white tail deer. The .35 Whelen is unnecessarily poweerful for white tail, and with the wrong bullets (such as those designed for elk or moose) is actually less effective than smaller calibers.

Moreover, the .35 Whelen has been a factory cartridge for only 21 years and no great effort has been made to promote it. On the other hand, the .270 Winchester has been around since 1925 and has been actively promoted by both Jack O'Conner and Col. Whelen himself. It is a much more sensible "all-round" cartridge and has a great deal less recoil. One of the reasons for the failure of the .358 Winchester was that it was offered in the Featherweight version of the Model 70, and the recoil was fierce.

In 1987, when the .35 Whelen was introduced as a factory round, those hunters with enough knowledge to appreciate its advantages already had one in all probability, as in the case of the .22-.250, another Remington effort to legitimize a wildcat. I don't know this to be a fact, but I suspect that the .22-.250 has also failed to live up to expectations, as far as sales are concerned.

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #103532 - 26/04/08 02:00 AM

Quote:

I suspect that the vast majority of "big game" animals taken in the US are white tail deer.



Absolutely true. your statement about the .35 Whelen devotees already having one when Remington spun there's out is interesting. I wonder if that is essentially true. I mean, like you say, the caliber had been out for many years.

And absolutely true about the .270. Frankly, who NEEDS much more than such a caliber? Not very many hunters in the USA.

Along those lines, one of the loads I remember reading years ago as a primo .35 Whelen deer load was the 200 grain {intended for the .35 Remington} bullet driven as fast as possible. As poor a performer as it was against really big game, it was said to an absolute bomb on whitetails.

I'd love to run some 1920's-1940's vintage 220 grain .30-06 loads and 250 grain .35 Whelen loads into my test media. I have a hunch that with available bullets of the day, there was no great or even noticeable difference between the two calibers in those loadings.

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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103533 - 26/04/08 02:12 AM

If I recall correctly, the preferred bullet for the .35 Whelen by the real died-in-the-wool enthusists was the 275 grain made by the long defunct Western Tool and Die Works, a bullet I have never personally seen, but often wondered about. I was really curious how such a bullet would work in my .350 G&H Magnum.

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #103535 - 26/04/08 02:32 AM

Jack O'Connor mentions that bullet in his Book of the Rifle. Sounds like a winner, and IMO any .35 Whelen would be best fitted with a twist fast enough to stabilize long spitzer 250-275 grain bullets, and 300's.

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103539 - 26/04/08 04:26 AM

12" twist is just fine for all bullet weights in .358, and a 14" would likely do to 280 gr. through 300's. A 16" twist, if unstable with specific bullets at 200yards, is unsuitable with those bullets at any range. The problem stems from being almost unstable at close range(even though they may hit point-on on paper. This almsot instability translates to instability and erratic behaviour (tumbling and/or turning) upon impact with heavy meat and bone.
: I've never built up a .35 Whelen as when Remington brought out that wildcat as legitimate I was already shooting .375 '06 IMP and a 9.2x62, which were virtually peas on a pod except for bullet side. When I picked up the Husky in 9.3x62, I'd already re-chambered my .367/06IMP to 9.5x68, so I used my IMP brass for the 9.3x62 by simply necking it down for the smaller .366" bullet. The IMP '06 brass fit perfectly and fireformed without loss.
: How many today realize the groove diameter of the .358 is the bore size of a 9.3, which has a groove diameter same as the bore of a .375?
: I've never owned a .270 Win. I had smaller varmint rounds of better range, and larger big game rounds better suited to British Columbian game.
: "Once when hunting hares, my Spaniels flushed a tiger, thereafter I alwasy carried one barrel loaded with ball" "When pursuing the spotted buck, I once tread on the tail of a tiger". Lt. James Forsyth, 1858.
: While tigers are quite rare around here,(beavers eat them, I've heard) grizzlies aren't.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103546 - 26/04/08 04:58 AM

Quote:

Curl - you're sense of humour is very badly twisted.



Thank you!

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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jimincolo
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: CptCurl]
      #103549 - 26/04/08 05:28 AM

The rational for having a .35 Whelen over, let's say, a .358 Win. or .350 Rem. Mag. is the ability to use larger bullets without losing needed powder capacity. The Remington twist rate is too slow to stabilize these longer, heavier projectiles. It's a pity, because medium bores from .338-06 through 9.3X62 are superior elk & moose rounds.

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Landy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: jimincolo]
      #103559 - 26/04/08 08:31 AM

The limited market success of medium bores is a direct reflection of the limited oportunities for hunting and shooting suffered by many. If you have little chance to hunt any game above 300lbs. you gain little from the larger bore. If you can barely shoot enough to handle a .25 something a .35 something is not the way to go.

A certain market exist for big boomers for simply the experience or for braging rites. These milder mediums do not satisfy this "need".

The .33s-38s non or small (.350RM) magnums have and will always only occupy a niche of serious hunters and rifle loons. They will,however, continue to do it all a little bit better than either bigger or smaller, and I will continue to use mostly such rounds.

Unless blinded by these Hitlary images!

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #103581 - 26/04/08 01:58 PM

No question the 35 Whelen is a unique cartridge that says something about the shooter--

Its primary competition is the 338 WM.So sad hunters want to ID with power and not efficiency--

I have a 30.06 mannlicher I am rebarreling to 35 Whelen.Wonder what the velocity will be out of a 20" barrel?Gonna be a great elk/moose/bear deep woods gun--

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Nakihunter
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103585 - 26/04/08 03:01 PM

Hopdoc, great idea of re-barreling your Mannlicher. I feel that the real competition for the 35 Whelen is the 9.3X62 which is virtually an improved case with a heavier bullet of "8 thou" larger diameter. The 9.3X62 would keep your rifle more consistent with its European heritage.

Good hunting.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #103599 - 26/04/08 08:36 PM

Good Thoughts!! I willconsider that!

From another forum--


Re: 9.3x62 Rifles [Re: sweet swede]
#532377 - Wed Apr 21 2004 07:17 PM

The 9.3x62 is roughly equivelant to a 36 "Whelen Improved". The shoulder is .102 forward of the 35 Whelen and has less taper. Case capacity is 74.87grs of water for the 9.3 and 72.63 for the 35.
Factory ammo is typicaly underloaded for the 9.3 in deferance to the older Mausers that can be found in this caliber. I beleive SAAMI spec for the 9.3 is 55K psi vs. 62.5k psi for the Whelen (you may want to double check these).
Judicious handloader can easily exceed 2600fps with 250gr bullets vs 225 for the Whelen, and 286gr bullets can be loaded to comfortably exceed 2400fps, so it is a good bit more potent than the Whelen.
Both Norma and Lapua make superb quality brass for the 9.3 at 50% higher prices than one would expect for whelen brass.
The 9.3 would be the world-wide choice and is a somewhat superior round. The 35 Whelen would be the all-american choice for those who don't handload.......DJ


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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (26/04/08 08:46 PM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103600 - 26/04/08 09:10 PM

Some visual bullet comparisons--



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xausa
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103609 - 26/04/08 11:05 PM

I am having a .270 Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine rebored to 9.3X62, and have agonized somewhat over accomodating the rotary magazine to the larger neck and bullet diameter case. However, the gunsmith tells me that he can handle it. If worse comes to worst, there is an Austrian firm which still manufactures parts for the original M-S. Since I already own two .35 Whelens and a .35 Brown Improved Whelen (long story), I didn't feel the need to convert to that caliber.

I also own rifles in 9.3X57, 9.3X64, 9.3X72R and 9.3X74R, so I thought I needed to round out the collection.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: xausa]
      #103615 - 26/04/08 11:31 PM

The more I think about it the more I like the 9.3x62 in my mannlicher carbine with the 98 action.

I may go with the 9.3 and use the factory Norma vulcan bonded round.For handloading I would prefer Swift A Frames and they make a 250 gr and a 300 gr bullet.

Nakihunter-
Great tip to an american only thinking in terms of american cartridges!!!!

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103617 - 26/04/08 11:57 PM

Quote:

The more I think about it the more I like the 9.3x62 in my mannlicher carbine with the 98 action.



When you are done with that project, or before, find a nice-condition 6 lb Husqvarna M46 in 9.3x57.

If you do, I'm certain you will buy it.

For much of your woods hunting there in the South, I can't imagine a better rifle & cartridge.

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103629 - 27/04/08 03:11 AM

I know Donnley lists the capacity of the 9.3x62 as being 74.8gr.,however the two I personally measured that were fired in a factory 9.3x62 Styer, have 78.2gr. water capacity. This is identical to my current .375/06IMP if I use .35 RP Whelen brass and 80.0gr. capacity if I use WW '06 brass for either.
: Most .35 Whelen data is loaded to 1920 .30/06 spec. pressures fo around 49,000CUP near as I can figure, while the .338/06IMP is loaded to the much higher .270 Win levels. The difference in pressure is around 6,000 to 7,000PSI. This is why the .338/06 is shown to best the .35 Whelen with 250gr. bullets, which is impossible if both are loaded to the same pressure.
::: hoppdoc - The 9.2x62 would be a very good choice for your Mannlicher, however, so is the .35 Whelen. If loaded to normal for the US-type pressures, the 9.3 x 62 will beat 2,500fps with 286gr. quite easily, and will also do 2,650fps. with 270gr.Speers One only needs BLC2 for this venture, or H4895 Extreme for very slightly reduced speeds. This is why Scovill used the 9.3x62 case for the original .375 Hawk/Scovill. The shorter neck improved the capacity slightly and of course made it his case, rather that him merely building a .375 /06IMP with stndard .454" neck. The reason my .375/06IMP has greater capacity than a .375/06IMP, is it's .460" shoudler, .470" base and same neck as a 9.3x62. I believe the chamber was cut with the oversized Gibb's body reamer, then standard neck throater.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103631 - 27/04/08 03:21 AM

I'm going to post another note here.
: If and when I build anther bolt gun, it will be a standard .35 Whelen. This is something I decided upon a year ago.
: The reason is that the .35 Whelen possesses all the power I need for the hunting I do with 250gr. bullets, kicks less than my improved .375 or the 9.3x62 for that matter. The 250gr. Speers work perfectly at 2,500fps on moose and bear and punch nice holes through deer. They are very accurate in most .358's. I could also make due with the 250gr. Hornady round nose for all hunting. It's flat enough shooting to my limit of 300yards and has a decisive 'anchoring" effect on moose. Come to think of it, my current 'new-to-me rifle does all that I need, exactly as provided above, using 225gr. swaged & 232gr. Normas; 270 Speers and 300gr. swaged Hornadys. It's a 9.3x57 Husky m46.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Landy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: DarylS]
      #103650 - 27/04/08 08:19 AM

The 35s make "grouse loads" easy because of the wide variety of commercial bullets, and this and some African regulations may be the only real issues when choosing among the 33-38s.

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #103653 - 27/04/08 08:45 AM

Quote:

The 35s make "grouse loads" easy because of the wide variety of commercial bullets, and this and some African regulations may be the only real issues when choosing among the 33-38s.



To me this is one of the great features of the .35 Whelen, and the one that keeps tempting me to get one.

The huge number of .358 bullets available means farm chores, trapping, varminting and grousing are all easily done with the same rifle used for deer, elk and bear. My 9.3's do all that, too, but with a wee bit more effort to assemble loads.

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Landy
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #103665 - 27/04/08 10:47 AM

9.3,

Yeah not all of us have the gear and know how to pour lead in anything handy (pistol cases) size and shoot them. I have yet to try them but I have some nice looking Mt. Baldy 270s for the 9.3X57. They seem to be well cast LBT LFN type cast in about 18BHN alloy. The person that emailed to confirm the order has an Husqy M46 himself and claimed that the bullets at the right speeds are great on small game or whitetails.

I have yet to hunt with my Husqy M46, but Daryl, the Mt. Baldy rep., and you certainly make it sound good. I like the feel and weight of the rifle very much. I see that you are working to convert Hoppdoc.

The Whelen or .350RM certainly can easily be a do it nearly all cartridge. The 9.3X57 may be a bit more of a niche player, but if I can assemble a good "grouse load" I can see it very at home in the heavy timber.

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9.3x57
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: Landy]
      #103670 - 27/04/08 11:15 AM

Convert Hoppdoc???

YES, the Good Doctor needs a 9.3x57 bad, along with his to-be .35.

Landy, I posted my recent cast bullet work on the Swede forum. Much easier than making pistol cartridge case bullets!

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=38874

The NEI bullet proved very accurate and when HP'd tested well in the boards and jugs. I shot a ground squirrel with one today which must be a sure test of its worthiness for deer! HA!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Nakihunter
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Re: Why has the 35 Whelen never caught on? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #103677 - 27/04/08 12:34 PM

Quote:

The more I think about it the more I like the 9.3x62 in my Mannlicher carbine with the 98 action.

I may go with the 9.3 and use the factory Norma Vulcan bonded round. For handloading I would prefer Swift A Frames and they make a 250 gr and a 300 gr bullet.

Nakihunter-
Great tip to an American only thinking in terms of American cartridges!!!!



You are welcome doc. Is your rifle a Mauser 98 with a "Mannlicher" type full stock or is it a Mamnlicher-Schoenauer action? If it is a MS action, I would stick to the Nosler manual velocities & not try to increase it. With a M98 action you can go 100 fps higher than the Nosler manual. John Barsness has done some good load development in his CZ550.

The Swift bullet is reputed to give lower velocities due to the sticky jackets. The Nosler partition 286 would be great & so also the Norma 286 gr, Lapua 286 gr & Woodleigh 320 gr!. I am also working with Barns 250gr TSX and the Nosler Ballistic Tip / Accubond at 2600 fps.

I am happy to share the data from my 95 year old Simson. I'll PM you some more info. You might like your "new" rifle so much that you may decide to take it to Africa next time!

I look forward to some pictures after the project is finished.

Happy hunting / shooting.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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