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Hunting >> Hunting in Australia, NZ & the South Pacific

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Unethical or cruel?
#184653 - 26/06/11 11:02 PM

Quote:

The hind was pregnant, and the feotus quite well developed.

Posted one of these photos on facebook, and some of the "hunters" or persons on there think this is unethical and shows hunting in a bad light to the "world".

What do you think?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (26/06/11 11:30 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: NitroX]
#184660 - 27/06/11 01:56 AM

Unethical and cruel

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Ben
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Reged: 22/08/08
Posts: 1917
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: lancaster]
#184679 - 27/06/11 06:11 AM

There's a fair chance that any female animal we shoot is going to be pregnant. Feral animals still need to be managed, and that marvellous hind was respected as a game animal by being fully utilised. So I definitely don't think it to be unethical, and I don't think it fits the true meaning of cruel, either. Although I don't think it unethical or cruel, and personally I find it interesting, I do see how in this modern McWorld, it could be controversial.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Ben]
#184680 - 27/06/11 06:24 AM

I saw these pics the other day somewhere else.

Not unethical or cruel, a fact of life of being a hunter.

As Ben said, it happens if you shoot females of any animal. Be it Fallow, Roo's, Buffalos, Pigs, Foxes etc and they are just the one's I can think of that I have been involved with.

Now in regards to posting the picture in a public forum or on Facebook, not such a good idea IMHO.

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gryphon
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: 500Nitro]
#184682 - 27/06/11 07:09 AM

The Australian Deer Association award a "three hind badge" to hunters that actively participate and take three sambar hinds over a prescribed period.

This is to help reduce the number of hinds in the wild as stocks are increasing rapidly here more and more and are seen in more than a few places to be making a nuisance of themselves.
Instead of targeting stags as many do this through us hunters is seen by Gov authorities as hunters doing the Aus environment a great deal of good on reducing an introduced species and we all know what sort of shit we have here with introduced species,IE Pigs,Camels,Goats,Buffalo.
If we dont then Sambar will be taken from the game species list and be a declared pest animal and thus with no Game status will be reduced to the same status as a fox or feral pig goat or whatever other shits of things abound in Aus.If we dont target them they will end up being poisoned by aerial baiting programs,now what do we want?

There is no question what so ever on ethics at all re this matter and to take a Sambar Hind stalking is seen as an achievement being as they are such a tremendous quarry species rather than being unethical bullshit.
Sambar hinds are the watchdogs of the species and hold their own in the vigilance stakes.

Think `roo`s a national symbol where we actively take MILLIONS of animals per year,they aint all bucks you know!

On my own roo permit I have absolutely no issues with selecting doe roo`s even though one has to dispatch a joey usually with the end result.

I have my three hind badge,not that I had actually set out for one but more so as a result of shooting a few fat hinds for meat!

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DarylS
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: gryphon]
#184687 - 27/06/11 08:09 AM

I don't think it is unethical or cruel, but do think posting that particular or type of picture on the net shows lack of fore-thought for someone else's possible feelings & how a subsequent outcry of foul could hurt our sport.

We, in the hunting fraternity, know it happens - the chance happens every time we shoot a female - but I feel we should take every opportunity to hide this type of unfortunate occurance from those who would be upset by it.

During moose season, those of us who are ethical, shoot a 'dry' cow moose, rather than one with a calf or two. We know damn well the dry cow is pregnant, was just bred that fall. At one time, when shooting a cow, we were required to 'mail' in the entire uterous with the fetus attached - Because it was shot mid to late October, the fetus would only be a couple weeks old at best. We did this, of course, but didn't mail pictures of the 'operation' to the SPCA or FITA(or whatever it's called. This was pre-internet. Today, I think showing such a picture on the web, is much the same as directing it to one of the anti groups and is outright asking for trouble that would otherwise not happen.

Some would say, tough, get over it - but I think that attitude is a poor one under the circumstances of global antihunting pressure. We know we need to hunt, to maintain game species, they don't and merely would like to think of a baby saved to grow up, yadda yadda yadda & be pulled down to feed dingo or wolf pups.

There are many people who are fence sitters on whether hunting is ethical or should be banned outright. We've been fighting for their support for a long time, using facts on game hunting control to increase #'s as well as helping habitat, etc.

I feel pictures such as the above, do not help us with the fence sitters, rather the opposite & give fuel to those who continually badger the politicians to stop hunting entirely.

We know it happens, but the world wide web is not the place to show ALL of the pictures. my opinion.

edited to correct some text - dates, etc.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (28/06/11 01:31 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: DarylS]
#184692 - 27/06/11 12:40 PM

Certainly not unethical or cruel.

Rather, stupid is the word.

Stupid for posting it.

But then, when we get revved up for wolf killing, ANY trapped, snared, shot or dug out wolf or wolf pic'd and posted will be seen as stupid as well.

I'm getting rather fed up with those who are distant thinking those who are close to real management are "____________", fill in the blank with whatever disparaging word you care to type.

Our whole economy; hunting, mining, logging, ranching, is being destroyed or has already been destroyed, by people who have nothing to lose and no legitimate interest in the issues, demanding government action to destroy production and active management.

If it needs protecting, protect it. If it needs killing, kill it. And if you have no direct interest in the impact of the management decision, stay the fuck out of the discussion.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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TOP_PREDATOR
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: 9.3x57]
#184698 - 27/06/11 04:09 PM

Not unethical or cruel,i have shot a whole range of pregnant animals,but would never take photos of a foetus.

I just can't see any need to show people this photo,other than shock factor.

--------------------
"I have carried out my official duties as long and faithfully as i can,and for the rest I have lived in such a fashion as seemed most agreeable to me...convinced that a good day's shooting is second in point of pleasure to nothing else on earth."

Lord Warwick

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Empire375
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Reged: 18/08/09
Posts: 239
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: TOP_PREDATOR]
#184703 - 27/06/11 05:56 PM

Unethical. Unnecessary. Unhelpful.

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gryphon
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Empire375]
#184706 - 27/06/11 06:54 PM

Well Nitro the members (some) arent too happy with your photo`s old boy.

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Empire375
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Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: gryphon]
#184707 - 27/06/11 07:06 PM

I don't get mad because of what has taken place in these images. I get mad because it draws criticism towards hunting by folks who would normally not care. Shooting pregnant animals is just a reality of hunting.
Posting these images is emotive and serves no benefit other than to polarize opinion

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Empire375
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: 9.3x57]
#184708 - 27/06/11 07:09 PM

A valid opinion quaintly phrased

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cadet
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Reged: 10/09/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Western Victoria, Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Empire375]
#184717 - 27/06/11 10:31 PM

It's not unethical or cruel that a pregnant animal is shot any more than any other animal; but taking photos and then posting them on the 'net?!
RG

Edited by cadet (27/06/11 10:35 PM)

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NitroX
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: lancaster]
#184726 - 27/06/11 11:27 PM

Quote:

Unethical and cruel

Care to expand on that. A flat unsupported assertion is really only just an opinion.

How is it "cruel"?

How is it "unethical"?

Giving consideration to the fact sambar do not have a definite breeding season. A hind may be pregnant any time of the year. A stag may have hard antlers any time of the year.

So it is not the same as a limited viewpoint of say hunting red hinds during an "off season"?

Should sambar hinds never be killed?

What sort of ridiculous management of a wild herd situation would arise out of that?

At what stage of pregnancy is it no longer unethical or no longer "cruel" to take a hind which might have a very high chance of being a "little bit" pregnant.

Now also giving consideration to the farming of stock. Are deer farmed does or hinds never killed when pregnant?

I can easily tell you, of course they are. It would be unethical or cruel to kill hinds or does, when they have young at foot which depend on them. They are culled AFTER the breeding season usually, when close to 100% are at least somewhat pregnant, during winter, when well fed.

What about domestic cattle?

Maybe it might serve to open some eyes a bit to nature.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (28/06/11 01:01 AM)

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: NitroX]
#184728 - 27/06/11 11:35 PM

"Shock value"? No, maybe educative.

I don't know why seeing a foetus would come as a "shock" to experienced hunters?!

All the naysayers, ever visited a natural history museum with exhibits of wild animals? The ones I have visited had exhibits of foetuses. Was the obtaining of those foetuses, cruel and unethical? Maybe it is educative.

Certainly the answers on here are educative.

As for "harming hunting" .... and all that crap .... maybe we should institute the "no blood" on a dead animal some forums and magazines insist on.

Maybe instead educating people is a better idea, including educating hunters.

I wonder for the guys on safari, whom harvest females say for bait or meat, how many times they might be pregnant. Except the client never sees it as all the dirty work is done by the skinning and butchering staff, while the client enjoys a whiskey or gin and tonic in the safari camp's bar?

We harvest about 4 million kangaroos in Australia per year. The standard practice is if taking a females is to find out if it is carrying a joey. And if so, you kill it. Considered neither unethical nor cruel. The opposite.

In Scandanavia if shooting a moose cow, with a calf at foot, the practice is to shoot the calf first and then only try to shoot the cow. Is the shooting of the calf unethical or cruel? No of course not.

Leave the double standards to the greenies and animal rightists whom live in fairy castles of make believe.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (28/06/11 12:59 AM)

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Huvius
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Loc: Colorado

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: NitroX]
#184735 - 28/06/11 01:43 AM

I can't be the only one to notice that, in general, the anti hunters who patently exclaim hunting (and a situation such as this in particular) is both cruel and unethical are the very same whom celebrate a woman's freedom to kill her own unborn child?

It's long been time for everyone to "man up" and see the world as it really is. This happens on occasion. The PETA croud see such nobility in "saving" these poor helpless cute fuzzy sweet loving animals all the while not giving a good damn about the suffering and unjust death of millions of people around the world every year.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Huvius]
#184747 - 28/06/11 04:11 AM

Huvius,

Yes the double standards of the antis.

On the FB NE page one anti has already posted "hunters should be killed and not die quickly ...."

As usual the antis show their compassion and feelings to their fellow humankind.

I think all school kids should have to undertake a "cultural revolution" camp, and go out and kill and butcher their own meat, farm and grow their own vegetables, to get them out of the "concrete jungle" mentality that is becoming so prevalent today.

ie educate them.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: Ben]
#184823 - 29/06/11 03:27 AM

Quote:

There's a fair chance that any female animal we shoot is going to be pregnant.

Agree 100%.
Personally, I don't like to leave the doe cull too late, but it all depends on selecting the right animal when you have the opportunity within the season.
Having said that, it can't be unethical or cruel. At the end of the day, in population management / conservation, what is the difference between shooting a pregnant doe and shooting a doe with fawn or accompanying yearling?
However, you could say the photo is distasteful in the context of posting on a page open to public view and would be better on a members only page. However, hunters should be exposed to this kind of thing - after all it can't be only about hunting bucks...
We might not like it, but some of us have to tread a fine line in this overcrowded PC mindful world. Perhaps less so in the wilds of Idaho or Australia, but I know just how much of a minority I am in where I live!

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ozhunter
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: 500Nitro]
#184835 - 29/06/11 04:25 PM

Quote:

I saw these pics the other day somewhere else.

Not unethical or cruel, a fact of life of being a hunter.

Now in regards to posting the picture in a public forum or on Facebook, not such a good idea IMHO.

+1 No need to high light this. "out of sight, out of mind".

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kamilaroi
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: ozhunter]
#184837 - 29/06/11 05:38 PM

I believe that the depiction is best left to a scientific publication on comparative development.
That shown on the other site is merely gratuitous stupidity.

Edited by kamilaroi (29/06/11 05:38 PM)

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NitroX
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: kamilaroi]
#184839 - 29/06/11 05:57 PM

So now only scientific publications should be allowed to publish photos of a natural history basis?

How limiting and restrictive.

Stupidiity is limiting ourselves and being too frightened to learn, and to display legitimate items of interest to others.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Empire375
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Reged: 18/08/09
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Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: NitroX]
#184842 - 29/06/11 10:00 PM

Made my wife angry. She is otherwise disinterested. That does not help me at all. I understand all arguments in support but the images offended me also. I can't help that.
I guess on a forum like this it cannot hurt as only hunters would read it.

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ozhunter
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: NitroX]
#184843 - 29/06/11 10:17 PM

Quote:

Stupidity is limiting ourselves and being too frightened to learn, and to display legitimate items of interest to others.

Unfortunately the word "stupidity" is a good explanation for a vast number of non hunting, tax paying voters.
I personally don't like looking at that photo and in saying that, I can usually handle a bit of rough. Could only imagine the feeling non hunters get about this photo and us hunters that (in their mind) indulge in this field.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: ozhunter]
#184851 - 30/06/11 01:18 AM

Here in Tennessee, our deer hunting season is designed to prevent this kind of an event from occuring. Our white tail deer rut is in the late fall, and fawns are dropped in the spring, so the time between conception and the end of the hunting season in early January would make "harvesting" a doe with a foetus that far developed seem unlikely.

On the other hand, our local bag limit is three deer per day during the entire hunting season, which extends from September to January, with the proviso that only two (in some circumstances three) deer taken may be antlered bucks ("button" bucks are not counted). The emphasis is definitely on population control by reducing the number of does.

I personally try to account for as many does as possible, since they are wreaking havoc with my soybean crop.

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gryphon
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Re: Unethical or cruel? [Re: xausa]
#184876 - 30/06/11 08:13 AM

I thought that there may have been some interest in that the antler buds are truly defined as showing on the head even at this early stage.

I catch a trout and strip the roe out and eat it on the spot..always have..no diff to me.

Jackie Onassis was reported as her favourite dish was one of a cooked unborn lamb,she did note that one had to kill two though...true!

I have shot rabbits in the tens of thousands for the market,how many were pregnant does or "milky does" I couldnt tell you..whats the diff?

Do we shoot cow elephants? Do we run an ultrasound over them before shooting? To test their level of or if preg?

Sambar deer do not have a season on them and are legally huntable every day of the year (stalking)and as they can have calves at foot or in the womb at any time of the year we get to the 'collateral damage' situation at times.
I know of some that will skin more advanced age "slinky`s" for their delicate hide to be made into soft supple gloves,I`m sure most of us would love a pair!

Come on this is a hunters forum is it not and there has to be occasional 'collateral damage' as so succinctly referred by our politicians in warfare!

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