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Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
8mm bullets for heavy game
      #145136 - 04/11/09 08:28 AM

Hi,

Not sure if this should be on the reloading forum, but I'm sure I'll find the respondents here, too.

In May I posted a question about heavier bullets in the 8mm on the Reloading forum, which induced a good discussion.
Now, just today the mailman brought the latest copy of "Vapentidningen" where 8mm bullets were put to the test in a similar pattern in which they've tested .308, 9,3mm, .375, and .45 cal bullets.
I was plain astounded at the results although they were not too dissimilar to the results of the previous tests.

In brief, the 180grs Lapua Naturalis fared best (as it has been performing very constantly, indeed; pretty much irrespective of caliber and weight so far). Alas, the 8mm bullet has been discontinued by Lapua.
The 2nd best and almost as good as the Lapua was Rhino 185grs.
All the rest fared fairly equally in the penetration test and besides differences in how well they held together they were all fairly equal - and pretty much below the performance standard of the Lapua and Rhino.
What the real surprise was that the lighter bullets penetrated so much better than the 200grs bullets!
The biggest downside with the test was a narrow selection of bullets.

Now to my question:
What bullets have you found to work well on big game and especially if you shoot in a poor angle where a lot of penetration is needed?
I'm interested in 8x57mm or similar velocity loads, and by big game I mean from whitetail deer upwards: elk, moose, bear, wild boar and like.

I intended to do a lot of testing this summer, but I only got my gun back from the 'smith's last Friday so no testing so far (unless Sunday's killed moose cow counts as test ).



I've been thinking of Nosler's AccuBond, and also Norma's Oryx.
The Oryx for sure has a solid reputation and I was surprised at the 8mm test where it fared little better than e.g. the Sako Hammerhead whose bonding seems to be too weak.
In the other calibers the Oryx bullet has shown sterling performance; the Rhino seems to be quite a hard bullet that does not always reliably open on smaller game like roe deer.
Digging in my father's gun cabinet and in my own boxes I found probably some 300 rounds of factory loaded Sako Hammerhead which has so far performed flawlessly, but the shots taken have all been from beneficial angles, pretty much broadside on. This, of course, does not make me very keen on reloading excercises, but the constant not-too-good performance of the Hammerhead makes me somewhat concerned. Not wanting to wound game and make it suffer I wish to find a good bullet.

- Lars/Finland

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

Edited by Schauckis (04/11/09 08:30 AM)


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: Schauckis]
      #145139 - 04/11/09 09:04 AM


Well I use the Woodleigh RN bullet in my 318WR which is an identical bullet to the 8mm by Woodleigh and have had no problems getting kills on Buffalo.

Good penetration, good weight retention and they seem to hit hard.

I like it because it is a heavy bullet for the calibre
so really a sooped up 30.06.

Anyway, just my HO.


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Andrew
.224 member


Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 15
Loc: West Midlands - uk
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: Schauckis]
      #145140 - 04/11/09 09:30 AM

Have you had a look at the Saxtech KJG bullets? They are solid copper,and the Saxtech site has a number of tests and hunters accounts on the superior performance of these projectiles.


I have just received some for my 8x68. They are beautifully presented and well finished. I would be astonished if these didnt fly well. Plenty of speed with the lighter weights, but good weight retention on impact, enabling deep penetration.

should be good in any 8mm I would think.

Andrew


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9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: Andrew]
      #145145 - 04/11/09 02:00 PM

Schaukis!

Congrats on the hirvi!!!

Very nice and more congratulations! And many good meals, too!

What rifle is that?

In my test media, I got quite good results in 8x57 from the cheap Remington 185 grain PSPCL. It is designed for the 8mm Rem Mag so it is a bit hard for the x57 speeds. Or 8.2x53R if that is what they are going to be used in.

Try these:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=1254

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=1248

What are you using for testing media?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145152 - 04/11/09 04:15 PM

I repeat the same as 9.3! It looks like you are using an 1895 winchester. In what cartridge is this rifle chambered?
Oh, and congrats on the moose. We walked up unexpectedly on a cow moose and calf a couple mile up the mountains behind our house here in Alaska on Sunday. I will post a photo when i can.
We were sled riding and not hunting. Not moose season at the moment either!
Can't wait until next year!'

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145160 - 04/11/09 07:04 PM

Quote:

Congrats on the hirvi!!!




Thank you, thank you.

Quote:

What rifle is that?




As identified by 88MauSporter despite the smudgy picture - very well done! - it's a Winchester model 1895.
The caliber is the venerable Finnish "Moose round" 8,2x53R, i.e. necked-up 7,62x53R "Russian" that uses the same bullets as the 8mm Mauser.
You may recall the discussion initiated by Lancaster "Win from Fin"



After the extensive custom work the barrel has been cut, the open sights renewed (Recknagel adjustable items), quick sling mounts have been fitted, the stock is re-done in laminate (plywood): it's longer, wider, has less drop and enjoys the benefit of a recoil pad; a Weaver rail for the use of red dot sight (DocterSight II, fitted on both photos) has been fitted utilizing the mount of the old rear sight, and the entire package has been made take-down.
I'm glad many of you noticed the rifle - on the leverguns.com forums the dog got most of the attention.



Quote:

What are you using for testing media?




I was planning on using wet newspapers. I'm mostly concerned that the bullets don't fragment too much, and that there is adequate penetration also when shooting from poor angles.
After the good test reports in Vapentidningen, I'm not entirely sure if more testing by me is needed besides finding an accurate load for my own gun.
The Nosler AB has only been in one of the tests, so that I'm curious about.

- Lars

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot


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9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: Schauckis]
      #145166 - 05/11/09 12:20 AM

Fabulous job on the rebuild!!!

On my pic I couldn't see a lever, and now I see the magazine that looked like part of your coat...I thought it was a restocked Browning BAR!

But I'm glad to see it is a Classic Finn.

And yes, the 8,2. {Wasn't it created due to a circa 1930's hunting law that banned 7.62 and smaller rounds for hirvi?}

Really, a very nice "modernized" oldie there. I have a thing for personal touches on hunting rifles, and really enjoy seeing others' ideas on what works and then seeing them actually going out and putting those ideas into wood and steel. VERY nice.

And as for working, well, THAT's obvious! Thanks very much for posting.

By the way, what dies are you using for handloading the 8,2x53R?

For a long time I've kicked around the idea of buying a cheap Mosin-Nagant and going to town on it...with a 9,3x53R the result. You are making it pretty hard to avoid...I do believe you have one or more of them, too?

Edit: for testing media, you might try adding something to stress the bullets a bit. Say, set up your wet paper with a sheet of plywood inside about 10 to 15 cm deep, followed by more paper. I've found the boards break petals, plug HP's and tear at jackets in a similar sort of way that ribs etc do in a game animal. Not identical, but the hard wood adds a feature that makes bullets look alot more like those recovered from game and sometimes reveals weaknesses that pure wet paper doesn't. Wet paper creates beautiful mushrooms but seems relatively gentle on bullets. Just my $.02... Thanks for a great and unique post!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (05/11/09 12:26 AM)


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Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145167 - 05/11/09 01:25 AM

Quote:

Fabulous job on the rebuild!!!
I have a thing for personal touches on hunting rifles, and really enjoy seeing others' ideas on what works and then seeing them actually going out and putting those ideas into wood and steel. VERY nice.




Thank you very much, indeed!
The price tag was hefty, but as the 'smith said: When you have a rifle built according to your ideas, one that is made for you, then the cost matters less.

Quote:

And yes, the 8,2. {Wasn't it created due to a circa 1930's hunting law that banned 7.62 and smaller rounds for hirvi?}
By the way, what dies are you using for handloading the 8,2x53R?




The round was to my understanding created in the 50's (although it may be an earlier development) due to the then-gun laws prohibiting the use of military caliber by civilians, i.e. the 7,62x53R, and also requiring a minimum of 8mm for moose.

I don't reload myself, my friend does it for me. He uses Dillon's 500 series equipment and as far as I know also Dillon's dies.
Also Sako's factory ammo is readily available still.

Quote:

For a long time I've kicked around the idea of buying a cheap Mosin-Nagant and going to town on it...with a 9,3x53R the result. You are making it pretty hard to avoid...I do believe you have one or more of them, too?




Ahem; actually, no... The Mosin-Nagant was never one of my favorites to be honest.
They're still seen not too seldom in fact, but I have yet to actually see one in 9,3x53R. The 8,2mm conversion seems to have been more popular.

Quote:

Edit: for testing media, you might try adding something to stress the bullets a bit. Say, set up your wet paper with a sheet of plywood inside about 10 to 15 cm deep, followed by more paper.




That's how they went about doing the test in Vapentidningen, in fact. The motivation being the same as yours: it makes the test more realistic, especially simulating a (shoulder) bone hit and then measuring if the bullet still would have hit the lungs of the animal.
Tests are tests, for sure, and shouldn't be taken at face value. However, if the results are repeatable and several tests point in the same direction, they're hard to argue against.

- Lars

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot


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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 15999
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: Schauckis]
      #145168 - 05/11/09 02:58 AM

The very best 8mm bullet I have found for deer through grizzlies, is the 225gr. Speer Hot Core. I don't know if they are still available nor not - but what a terrific bullet it was. Always expands and penetrates deeply.

In the 7.9x57 (8mm mauser) M98 23.4", we got 2,440fps with this bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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9.3x57
.416 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: Schauckis]
      #145203 - 05/11/09 01:40 PM

Schaukis:

I got a kick out of your Mosin-Nagant reponse. Chuckle chuckle. But since I own the ugliest dog in the world and thought a M-N might go well with him.

They are indeed a crude contraption, but can be VERY accurate. I used to collect them. The 28/30's and 39's are real tackdrivers, and with the Finnish improvement to the trigger would make a very good-shooting hunting rifle. I've seen pictures of a few 9,3x53R's and have a dummy round sent to me by Henry Paasikivi, the President of SAKO back in the '80's. He also sent me a dummy of the 8,2 and a few others. I got my info on the 8,2 from the late Pertti Kekkonen with whom I corresponded then, too. I don't recall the details but have them in my notes. The law barring use of 7.62 and below calibers no longer exists, does it?

Anyway, the Lapua 200 grain 8x57 bullet performed very well in m tests. Heavily loaded, too.

By the way, I really like the rifle. I'm glad you did it your way and didn't try to rebuild it to "original" condition. Your ideas for hunting rifle look VERY practical, useful and obviously are proven to be so!

It is a funny fact that the most common chambering {by far} in the M95 Winchester was the 7,62x53R. But, of course, not here...they are rare as hen's teeth here. I imagine an original 95 in .30-40, .30-06 or .405 is a very rare rifle over there!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145218 - 05/11/09 06:07 PM

Schauckis, Great stuff there and very nice rifle and cartridge combo.
It makes me regret the .303 British 1895 I gave up several years ago. I can't change the past.
If I but a lever gun again, it will be an 1895.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 147
Loc: Finland
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145230 - 06/11/09 01:06 AM

Quote:

I've seen pictures of a few 9,3x53R's and have a dummy round sent to me by Henry Paasikivi, the President of SAKO back in the '80's. He also sent me a dummy of the 8,2 and a few others. I got my info on the 8,2 from the late Pertti Kekkonen with whom I corresponded then, too. I don't recall the details but have them in my notes. The law barring use of 7.62 and below calibers no longer exists, does it?




You're quite right: the accuracy of the rifles, even old ones, is still today quite astonishing. From the point of view of accuracy and serviceability, there is little or no reason for anyone owning one of those rifles (or a sporterized one) to give it up in favor of a newer one, to be quite honest. This was also one of the motivations behind me starting to customize the existing rifle rather than buying a new one.

I remember now that we've had discussions before: You then mentioned your correspondence with the late P.T. Kekkonen - quite a character he was! The Gunwriters Forum is still a marvelous source of accurate information and curio, although it is no longer updated of course.

The current gun laws are very lenient (the current law is currently under revision, though; after two very nasty and unfortunate school shootings) so the only restrictions one has with regards to hunting caliber is suitability and minimum power requirements. With sporting guns suitability for the intended use is the only criteria applied.
For moose, the .308 and .30-06 are still most popular, and if we add the 7,62x53R on top of that they cater for about 75% of all moose taken annually. The only smaller one really to have gained some ground is the 6,5x55 Swede, and a beautiful cartridge it is, too!

Quote:

Anyway, the Lapua 200 grain 8x57 bullet performed very well in m tests.




Sorry, is this the 8mm Lapua Naturalis you're talking of, or the lead-core Mega bullet?
I know only of the 180grs Naturalis in 8mm!

Quote:

By the way, I really like the rifle. I'm glad you did it your way and didn't try to rebuild it to "original" condition. Your ideas for hunting rifle look VERY practical, useful and obviously are proven to be so!




We only live once....

Quote:

I imagine an original 95 in .30-40, .30-06 or .405 is a very rare rifle over there!




Have only ever once heard of a .30-06, and I don't know if it was a Brownchester or an original Winchester.
A .30-40 would be nice; but probably the 7,62x53R is better suited for our hunting in any case.

- Lars

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 4709
Loc: Idaho
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: Schauckis]
      #145231 - 06/11/09 03:03 AM

Quote:

Anyway, the Lapua 200 grain 8x57 bullet performed very well in m tests.




Sorry, is this the 8mm Lapua Naturalis you're talking of, or the lead-core Mega bullet?
I know only of the 180grs Naturalis in 8mm!






Actually, I don't know.

The box is marked "E 380" but there is no mention of whether the bullet is either of the types you mention.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Rolf
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 326
Loc: Germany, Bavaria
Re: 8mm bullets for heavy game [Re: 9.3x57]
      #145593 - 10/11/09 11:25 PM

Hello Lars,

I shot a sow (72kg dressed) with the 8x57 IS and two of the 196grs Woodleigh SPRN. Distance was about 10 meters, animal 1x square, 1x quartering away; muzzle velocity 720 m/s out of a 54cm barrel(measured at load development).
Results on the sow:
2x complete penetration, bullet holes showed expansion, animal lay within 15 meters.
1x shoulder blade penetrated, both shots in the heart/lung area (from slightly above)

Next step up in bullet weight and penetration would be the 200grs PP and 220grs PP (for 8x68S or 8mm Rem. Mag.) from Woodleigh.

best regards
Rolf


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