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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Gettysburg
577-450 Barrel
      #342959 - 02/07/20 09:39 AM

The longer Im here, the more projects pop into my head. I'll start by saying Ive never taken a day of any shop class in my life; but I did spend a bit of time taking design classes--which makes me really dangerous. I can design a screw (on paper); but dont ask me to thread a hole for it... I think I understand; but I dont have a clue about what I dont know. So Im constantly coming up with ideas, which leave gunsmiths pointing toward the door.

So with all that in mind, Ive been thinking about a 577-450 single shot build. Im toying with several action options from T/C Encore to Ruger No 1, to ???

Heres where my confusion begins or continues...
1. Ive been unable to find any custom barrel maker who makes a 577-450 barrel. Ive seen quite a few 45 caliber blanks, which sounded good until I learned that 577-450 isnt really 45 cal (hence the reason the 45LC chamber adapters dont work too well).

2. Ive seen a few references to 577-450 chamber reamers for sale and for rent. That sounded great, until I heard that all 577-450s are not the same. which has me scratching my head, since I have 577-450 dies and brass, and I dont have a clue what is what.

3. I know there are tons of "better" cartridge options but I want 577-450 and that seems like enough reason to at least investigate a bit further.

What am I missing? Id like to at least pretend to sound like I know what Im taking about when I present the plan to my smith.

Any suggestions where to go looking for what all I need?

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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HuviusModerator
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342961 - 02/07/20 09:47 AM

I think a place like IMA would have a barrel.
I’ve considered a similar project on a monoblocked single barrel trap shotgun. Would make a very simple conversion I’d think.
Also, if you have brass and dies, get the reamer made to your brass.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: Huvius]
      #342962 - 02/07/20 09:57 AM

Who is making that chambering reamer - today?
Is the barrel .458" groove dia.?
The originals were oversize, which complicates things.
Best to have a .458" groove. dia. Even then, the .45 Colt shoots .452's to .454's depending on the gun - they may or may not give accuracy in a .458" groove dia. barrel.
On the other hand, I used .452" Speer RN's in my .458 for grouse bullets and they shot well - into 3" at 100yards, but at grouse head ranges shot under an inch. The vel. was 1,445fps.
So - if smacked hard enough by the powder charge, the soft swaged factory bullets can shoot reasonably well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: DarylS]
      #342964 - 02/07/20 10:59 AM

My plan was to use a new barrel. I havent seen any barrels only listed from IMA of any others.

As for whos making the reamer? I did a quick google search earlier and found a couple sources BUT again Im not 100% what Im looking at. I saw reamers for sale ($250) and for rent.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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DarylS
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342966 - 02/07/20 12:01 PM

I would hope you would use a new barrel & one in .458" groove diameter.

Sounds like Pacific Tool and Gauge for a rental.

I didn't check if they had a .577/450 reamer. I assume you did.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: DarylS]
      #342968 - 02/07/20 05:12 PM

Sounds a great idea EDELWEISS!

To get a rifle to fit that cartridge, I'm not sure if the Ruger will fit it - however if it can then a ream job will be the go on a .45-70 or .458WM!
You may have to get a special reamer, definitely best speaking with a reamer mob for this one!
Mind you if you can get it into a Ruger & load it up properly it will be a fearsome beast!
It has an ENORMOUS case capacity!


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: 93x64mm]
      #342970 - 02/07/20 10:46 PM

Im pretty sure itll work on a No1. I had a 577Nitro built on a No.1 by JD Jones.

More and more, Im thinking a T/C Encore would be cool. I know its not classic and that is bothersome; but it seems the easiest--IF (big IF) I can find a suitable barrel groove and twist.

I had planned to build it on a Greener Martini action and thats still a possibility but a T/C seems like its better for everything besides classic looks

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (02/07/20 10:55 PM)


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2386
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342971 - 02/07/20 11:12 PM

Okay, lets figure out what you really want here because you have haven't really told us what you are looking for.

Oh, before I get on a roll, the reamer is the easiest. I have one in my tool box. I got mine from JGS Tools. http://www.jgstools.com/ Pacific Tool can make you one also. http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/

Just specify what barrel dimension you are need, because CIP is the standard and for .467 groove barrel. That is what my reamer is.



The barrel.

What part of the Martini barrel do you want?

Henry rifled?

Tapered bore?

.464 cylinder groove, .450 cylinder bore?

You could use a barrel from a MK IV Martini, either as is, or turned into a sleeve and inserted in blank.

TJ Barrel liners can furnish you a Henry rifled barrel straight cylinder .464. I have a 30 section here in my shop. Wanna buy it?

I believe at one time Krieger barrels made Henry rifled barrels. I could be wrong. Badger barrel did before the sold out.

Or do you just want a 577/450 chamber in a standard .458 groove barrel. Any barrel maker can provide that.

Once you decide which barrel you want can tell the reamer maker to make the throat and neck of the reamer to match the barrel dimensions.

If you stick with CIP yoi will be fine for reloading dies.

If you go with .458 dimensions, you are going to need to have a resize reamer made also. This reamer you can send off to some one like David Davidson at CH4D tools and have a set loading dies made.

The Gun.

I don't think the Encore action would big enough, you would have measure and find out. If it was, go for it. My choice would be the Ruger number 1.


This next part may sound negative, but it's not intended to be that way. just read with an open mind.

There are two types of people who would even consider this project.

1. Some who is intrigued with the Martini 577/450 chamber and has no experience with it.

2. Some who is intrigued with the Martini 577/450 chamber and has lots of experience with it.


Which am I? This why I have a reamer.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2386
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: DoubleD]
      #342972 - 02/07/20 11:22 PM

Oh, you have commented since I started.

When you say Greener action I hope you meant this one.



And not this one.



Even a standard MH action would be better. I have couple clean ones, that would work for your project.


That Greener shotgun action is pig and bitch to work on.Your gunsmith will hate you, if he really truely know how to work on a martini.

Stick with the Ruger 1 idea, even the Encore would better if the cartridge will fit

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: DoubleD]
      #342974 - 03/07/20 02:28 AM

I thought maybe the oversized groove dia. of the .577/450 might be a problem for a .458" groove dia. barrel, but not insurmountable. The proper dies and reamer are all that is necessary. Then the bullet question becomes very easy.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: DarylS]
      #342977 - 03/07/20 10:10 AM

Well I certainly am the type who doesnt know what he doesnt know. I have a passion for the Martini, which be gan with watching Zulu over and over. My four Martinis are in at best OK condition. The best being a Ghendra which, I know isnt a Martini; but is period "enough" for my rifle shooting desires. I have a couple sets of dies, correct brass and brass formed from shotgun shells; as well as some reloaded ammo from a dealer I found on Gun Broker.

What I want from THIS project is a period (late 19th Century) looking rifle in a cartridge that is a bit rare by 30-06 standards. Im "that guy" at hunting camp and I have a reputation to maintain. I could do it with a 405 Win in a 1895 rifle--But that was too easy.

I havent checked the feasibility of using a Encore action. At this point Im assuming (yes I know what that means) it will fit, as its big enough for a 12 ga shell and strong enough for 375H&H (and more). My thought with an Encore it fits the "look" I want close enough, until I can find a better option. Which leads me to the "best" part about using an Encore, being that it is reasonably affordable (cost of the barrel, cost of the reamer/rent?, gunsmith time/cost, and its a new/modern gun).

My intended game is Wild Boar at a max range of 100yrds (more likely 50yrds); with the occasional Whitetail tossed in at similar ranges.

Im NOT particular on the rifling pattern, in so much as it "must be ____" only that I want it to be reasonably accurate, as in MOP (minute of pig). Id prefer to load with BP Substitute so that I can fly with loaded ammo. YES-Ive checked with TSA and BP Substitute loaded ammo is OK.

I did a quick check at MGM Custom Barrels for Encores website. They do offer a 458 bore size. I havent spoken to them YET. I planned to call next week for specifics. I found the Pacific Tool makes a 577-450 reamer.----IF that much is "do-able"; Ill present the project to my smith

I freely admit Im over my head. If I knew what I was doing I wouldnt be asking. Anybody can buy a plastic stocked Remington and say hes hunting. I want more. For me hunting isnt filling some tag limit; its so much more than that.

Im open to any suggestions

Thanx

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (03/07/20 10:12 AM)


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: DoubleD]
      #342991 - 03/07/20 09:33 PM

Quote:

Oh, you have commented since I started.

When you say Greener action I hope you meant this one.



And not this one.



Even a standard MH action would be better. I have couple clean ones, that would work for your project.


That Greener shotgun action is pig and bitch to work on.Your gunsmith will hate you, if he really truely know how to work on a martini.

Stick with the Ruger 1 idea, even the Encore would better if the cartridge will fit




Can you elaborate a bit more please DD?
One was a shotgun in a weird gauge - didn't it have a slit receiver?
I'm having a real brain-fart at present, I can't remember dit from dot!


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2386
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: 93x64mm]
      #342994 - 03/07/20 10:16 PM

Well that's different.

First you can fly with loaded black powder cartridges, you just can't fly with loose black powder. The correct answer to that question comes from the Airline (not TSA) you are going to fly with in the form of a written letter. If you send a letter ask them for supporting FAA regulations for their decision.

And TSA does not know the correct answer.

It's better to not even ask the question. The airline has no way of knowing what's in the cartridge to start with. Asking questions like this at the check in counter puts a less than knowledgeable employee on the spot and they have express their best judgment. If you ask , don't argue and except the answer.

I have flown all across the country and even to South Africa carrying blackpowder cartridges with out issue.

Loaded ammo, pack it as directed, declare it as ammunition for the rifle you are carrying and answer only the question you are asked. Nothing more. And, it will be in compliance with the FAA regulation covering the subject.

Now that you have given details on your desire, I have a better option for you.

Westley Richards Musket No.2. Also known as the 500/450 Musket No. 2 or just 500/450. Cases made from 32 gauge shotgun brass, 50/90 Sharps brass or buy Bertram 500/450 brass.

Groove is .458. Dies available from CH-4D. 50/90 formed brass available for Martyn and X-Ring service.

You can use a standard .458 barrel.

I have a reamer.

Th cartridge is from the same era as the Martini. It was created by Gibbs and Westley Richard to compete with the 577/450 in the European market for use in Martini's. Several eastern European countries had the Martin's chamber in either the Gibbs or WR version. There are minor differences but on cartridge will fit and fire in another. The cartridge has almost the same ballistics the 577/450.

The No. 2 Musket was made to start for a drawn case and has none of the issues associated with switching over foil case-such as loose charge in large case or lack of neck-throat transition.

This cartridge will fit any action that will take a 50/90 Sharps cartridge.

FWIW my I. Hollis and sons, Number 2 musket will go in the blind with me this fall for white tail.

I have a friend in Europe who used my reamer to cut a a chamber for his rifle that he use to shoot in long range Matches at Bisley in UK. He doesn't always win. They guy that does win has to shoot real well to beat him.


Tell me which gunsmith you are using and I will send him the reamer. When he is done, he can send the reamer back to me. Then you will owe me a bottle of Talikser 18.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (03/07/20 10:24 PM)


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2386
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: DoubleD]
      #342995 - 03/07/20 10:22 PM

Greener Shotgun action has deeper cut knuckle seat. While it can still be disassemble like any Martini, this deep cut make it very difficult to reassemble.

It's big an clunky and has no grace.

Then this.

Quote:

This is a split action.



THe bottom of the receiver is split and has a screw that compress the action to hold a shotgun barrel.




You can do better with a standard MH action. Plenty around for building.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: DoubleD]
      #342996 - 03/07/20 10:59 PM

DD thanks for the clarification on the BP/Flying issue. I was pretty sure that was correct; but had begun to doubt myself. When I asked here, I got further confusing data, so I checked the TSA website, specifically looking for Substitute issue. I totally agree that parties beyond the passenger rarely "KNOW", they typically just make uninformed decisions based on ignorance and prejudice. My concern was inflamed when I began seeing TSA doing "wipe downs and sniffer tests of firearms cases (and asssssuming there were similar test of stored luggage).

Im not opposed to other cartridges and the Number 2 Musket sounds great. My big draw for the 577-450 was that I had dies and brass BUT since this is a ground up project, Im open to new ideas. I'll talk to my smith and get back to you

Regarding the shotgun action, I was looking at a Greener that didnt appear to be split. It was definitely a 12/14 ga action (3 prong firing pin). Its more than possible I missed the split but I was looking for it. It was a stripped action, would the split not be visible without a barrel?

THankx again

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342998 - 03/07/20 11:30 PM

Second DD's motion on the 450#2! I have one in a Fields action and it'll do anything the 577-450 will do without the problems. I use CH-4D dies and 50-90 brass from Starline. Any .45 mould from 300 to 450 grains will do fine. Load it with black or smokeless and trot on down to the range.
Best.


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50Calshtr
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #342999 - 03/07/20 11:38 PM

PS. Please remember to specify the 450 #2 Musket!! There's also a 450#2 Nitro Express--huge difference, as in Dayum! I'm not shootin' that big SOB. Have fun!

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DarylS
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #343000 - 04/07/20 01:40 AM

The split in the action is quite visible, with or without the barrel, as is the split in my wee Cadet action.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Loc: Gettysburg
Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: DarylS]
      #343008 - 04/07/20 07:28 AM

What is the advantage of N02 Musket over 577-450? What are the "problems"? I already have brass and dies for 577-450. I dont mind another cartridge; but Id kinda like to know why its better.

Im asking out of ignorance.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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DarylS
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #343010 - 04/07/20 07:46 AM

The .450 will be better with smokeless.
Since you already have dies and I presume they will size cases small enough to hold a .458" bullet(mine did), the only problem might be finding a chambering reamer with a replaceable pilot so you can get a .450" (or .449") pilot for it, to fit the .458" barrel's bore for chambering.
Too, the very much oversized throat on that chambering reamer might cause accuracy problems with .458" bullets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: DarylS]
      #343034 - 05/07/20 06:03 AM

Here's my 450 Musket #2, I think the world of the cartridge, I expect it's a bit better than a 45-70 and pretty close to 45-90 performance with blackpowder.

This is a Swinburne from James Rosier inMelbourne.



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DarylS
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Re: 577-450 Barrel [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #343041 - 05/07/20 09:33 AM

VERY intriguing indeed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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