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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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dherr
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Reged: 17/06/08
Posts: 19
Loc: PA, USA
Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun
      #107939 - 23/06/08 10:10 AM

Does anyone have any starting loads for 28 guage bore gun? I have both round ball and a pardox style bullet at 345 grains. What would the configuration of the load be above the powder? plastic or normal wading? Just need some directions to get started. Would like to use nitro for black.
Thanks
DHerr


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #107947 - 23/06/08 01:38 PM

David-

Nitro for black formulas for BPE cartriges are different than NFB for bore rifle/paradox loading.

Be Careful!

There are a couple of guys here on the site who own and shoot bore rifles and have been doing so for quite some time -- and have successfully worked a simple NFB formula for the bore rifles. This IS NOT the same as the widely published and popular 40-46 percent 4198 forumla.
It's completely different.

I own and shoot two different 16b double rifles, black powder, lubricated felt wadding, and roundball is all I use.
Why don't you want to run black powder in this paradox gun?

Will you please post some images of it for us to see?


I will search through my notes and see if I can remember who it is who has told me about the nfb for bore rifles formula.
I am concerned though that since your rifle is 28b (rather small for a paradox gun) and that it *is a paradox gun*, you're looking at stirring a hornet's nest with smokeless surrogate loads for it.
Black powder is so easy to clean up, so easy to load, and is exactly what your paradox gun was made for.
(please excuse my strong bias in support of blackpowder, I've had such great results with it in my bore rifles...)


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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gatsby
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #107952 - 23/06/08 05:54 PM

Could be a bit of a challenge to come up with a load. How is the gun proofed? Rifle or ball and shotgun? Chamber length? You need to have an idea of what the black powder load is in order to convert to a nitro load.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #107964 - 24/06/08 01:46 AM

DHerr - you can get wads from TRACKOFTHEWOLF.COM for your 28 bore. I concurr about using black powder due to the small bore size of this gun. It is much easier with larger bore guns, to convert to smokeless duplication loads. With the small bore size, pressure using smokeless climbs quickly.
: Looking at 28 bore modern shotshell loads will give load and wad columns in plastic as well as card wads that develope pressures in the 8,000 to 11,000 psi range.
: You are on your own as I haven't developed loads for one of these guns myself, but it wouldn't be difficult. There is no "formula" for conversion as the bore guns use very fast, shotgun-type powders for dupication,nitro to black loads. The smaller the bore, the slower the powders, and therein lies the problem. New ground.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gatsby
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #107969 - 24/06/08 02:57 AM

There is a possibility this was never a blackpowder gun. Holland's 28g pdxes were nitro guns. More information is needed.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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tinkerModerator
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: gatsby]
      #107973 - 24/06/08 04:41 AM

David-

As you can see from these other responses, it's going to be very helpful if you can get some images of your paradox up on this discussion thread.

The most important images will be of the proof marks, which are located on the areas of the barrels and the action where they meet, sometimes called 'water table' or 'action flats' and 'barrel flats'
Also, there may be marks on the barrels forward of the action, on the sides of the barrels, or on the tops of the barrels.
Some guns/rifles have charge designations on the buttplate too.

One of my rifles has the charge engraved on the tops of the chamber areas of the barrels, and on the side of the action.
Some of my european rifles have charge information stamped on the sides of the chamber area of the barrels.

Give your paradox gun a good look-over. Photograph anything that looks like an intentional stamp or mark and put it up here on the thread.
Among the members of this site, there is likely the most complete, accurate, and generously available knowledge bases on fine/exotic/rare hunting and sporting guns and rifles on the planet.
If these men don't know for sure what to suggest, they know who to ask and will do so to get you pointed in the right direction.

If you can't get the photos done yourself, find someone to do it for you and do it soon so we can see your nice paradox!

We (and I can freely speak for the community here) truly would love to see this unique 28b paradox gun, even if only for the chance to view it.




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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dherr
.224 member


Reged: 17/06/08
Posts: 19
Loc: PA, USA
Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: tinker]
      #108003 - 24/06/08 11:19 AM

Give me some instructions on how to post the images on the site. I have some good external shots, but will need to take some of any stampings on the gun. Thanks for all the interest.
DHerr


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #108005 - 24/06/08 11:39 AM

David-

Click this link to the site owner's instructions on
How to post an image to NitroExpress


Then from there go at it!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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dherr
.224 member


Reged: 17/06/08
Posts: 19
Loc: PA, USA
Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: tinker]
      #108061 - 25/06/08 02:08 AM

Tried the above suggestion and it was a dead end. Give me an e-mail address I can send the picks to and may be someone else can post the for me. this seems entirely too complicated for rookies like me.
Thanks,
Dave Herr


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gatsby
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #108064 - 25/06/08 02:48 AM

The link has changed try www.hunt101.com or give me a PM

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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dherr
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Reged: 17/06/08
Posts: 19
Loc: PA, USA
Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: gatsby]
      #108096 - 25/06/08 12:03 PM

OK I went to Hunt101 and uploaded 4 images, now what? How do I link to it and see them here?
Dave


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gatsby
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #108098 - 25/06/08 12:13 PM

Dave
Open a photo on Hunt101. Open this forum and start a reply, highlight and drag the link listed under your photo on Hunt101 into your reply on this foum.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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dherr
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: gatsby]
      #108102 - 25/06/08 12:48 PM

Try these images








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tinkerModerator
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: gatsby]
      #108103 - 25/06/08 12:48 PM

David-








You have a very nice hammer gun, looks to be in beautiful condition.
I am very interested to see the muzzles.

Also, noting the beautiful damascus barrels, I'll strongly suggest you stick with black powder loading for your load development. I doubt this rifle was ever proofed for nitro, and since it's a 28b, and a paradox, the experimentation could cost you (at least) your barrels.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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dherr
.224 member


Reged: 17/06/08
Posts: 19
Loc: PA, USA
Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: tinker]
      #108107 - 25/06/08 12:59 PM

Yes, this is it, but correct me if I am wrong, but a paradox is only rifled at the ends of the barrels, right? This gun is full length rifled ahead of the chambers. The barrels are thick at the ends, at least 3/32" I will get more pictures when I return home from our cabin where I have been coyote hunting with my Mahillon SxS 9x57R. No coyotes, but I called two gobblers and a hen in with a dying rabbit call, go figure. What did you do to get the image larger in your post. I tried and they stayed little, look ahead of your post. I am trying to get this right as I love this forum and have some nice guns to discuss and post images.
Regards,
DHerr


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gatsby
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: tinker]
      #108108 - 25/06/08 01:03 PM

Absolutely gorgeous rifle.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (25/06/08 01:05 PM)


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #108111 - 25/06/08 01:20 PM

David-

As soon as I saw you were on the way to opening a hunt101 account, I went there to see what that site was like, and to see if I could find your new account.
There was a column of images noted as 'recent photos' or something like that.
I tried to open them (make them bigger) by clicking them, and failed -- the site wanted me to join.

I then right clicked on them, studied the properties of the images, and from the text part of the web address marked "location" I just cut and pasted into a fresh browser, omitting the "thumbs" and associated slash, then hit the enter key.

That got me these images at the size you see in my post.



So these barrels are fully rifled?
I strongly suggest blackpowder and roundball.
Make chamber casts of your chambers with Cerrosafe casting alloy, you can get it from brownells.com
Take soft, pure lead roundball of a size slightly larger in diameter than your rifles bores and with a hardwood mallet tap them into the muzzles, then with a long wooden dowel or cleaning rod tap them back out of the muzzles and measure the bore and groove dimensions.

Post the measurements here on this thread.
It might take a little while for you to get the cerrosafe alloy from Brownells.com, but make it happen as soon as you can (to satisfy my selfish curiosities) so that we can give you accurate counseling on cartridge case selection and preparation, projectile selection, and load information.

It's going to take pretty accurate numbers in order to get you started in the right direction.

What you have here is a very nice rifle, it should get back into the hunting field, and I for sure (and can speak for many of us here) want to help you get it running and back to the sporting life.


Also, as a side note, one of my 16b double rifles is a Mahillon.

Here's a photo of it.




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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dherr
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Reged: 17/06/08
Posts: 19
Loc: PA, USA
Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: tinker]
      #108113 - 25/06/08 01:30 PM

So, are you saying I pasted thumbnails into my post? Also the chambers are true 2.5" 28 guage. I have a number of round balls in this size with variations of diameters. I also have a paradox style mold of 345 grains to play with. I will get the exact diameters from a cerrosafe cast I have at home in the shop and then get back to you along with some more pics.
Dave herr


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #108121 - 25/06/08 01:57 PM

David-

Sounds great so far.
Take a measurement of your rifling twist too while you're at it if you can.

If you have telescoping inside gages and a micrometer, get in there and measure the ID of your chamber up at the the origin of rifling, and back at the case head just shy of the rim.

You want to make double darn sure of these measurements, and double check your work along the way.

With the cerrosafe casting, I have a couple of tips for you.

Get two big cauldrons of water boiling. One for your funnel, your ladle, and *The Chamber Ends Of Your Barrels*
The other for your double boiler for the casting alloy.
This will get your barrels up to (the -in all realworld terms very low- temperature) boiling point of your water.
What this does is makes sure you're not cooling the cerrosafe on it's way into your chambers causing a striated or layered effect on the final casting.

The other tip is to get your paper towel or cloth packing material an inch or so back into the bores so that you get a good picture of forcing cone/leade/origin of rifling along with the chamber cast.

I can't wait to see what you come up with.
I'm very much enthusiastic about your nice rifle here and am equally enthusiastic about rallying support from our fellow members (like gatsby) in the effort of getting you into the starting path towards load development.


Also, please get us some images of that 28b paradox mould you speak of!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #108160 - 26/06/08 01:21 AM

Quote:

Also the chambers are true 2.5" 28 guage.




I would be thinking a dram to a dram and three quarters of 2 or 3f and a roundball.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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dherr
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Reged: 17/06/08
Posts: 19
Loc: PA, USA
Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: gatsby]
      #108170 - 26/06/08 08:16 AM

Change of direction! I just bought another 9x57R SxS made by the same group who made my Mahillon.
Almost identical except longer barrels and a little beefier action. How would I go about offering the 28 guage bore rifle for sale? Is that allowed on the forum?
Dave


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #108173 - 26/06/08 10:00 AM

David


There is indeed a mechanism here on the website for selling sporting goods and firearms.

Look through the Main Index for Classifieds and Collecting.

I wish I weren't out of work and injured at this time, I'd be one of the first to jump on your offer!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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dherr
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Reged: 17/06/08
Posts: 19
Loc: PA, USA
Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: tinker]
      #108218 - 27/06/08 12:12 AM

Not sure yet actually, I will post the muzzle pictures and the paradox bullet at hunting 101 for you to see. Ther are absolutley no markings on the gun anywhere except curled arount the hammers on each side. "Mach" on one side and "Prag" on the other. All game animals are in platinum. Oh, the twist is 1 in 94" so keep giving me usable info. Won't I have to swab the barrels each time I shoot with black powder? I have been using plastic cases cut to 2.5" and roll crimping the ends with really light loads (13 grains) of Green dot. Does this worry you? Also the bore diameter is .560 using cerrosafe. I have round and paradox in this diameter. Tell me how you would stack the load powder/overpowder card/fiber wading or plastic/ball/overball card?
Regards,
Dave


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DarylS
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Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #108225 - 27/06/08 01:04 AM

Dave- thanks for measuring the twist. This shows it was meant for round ball and therefore quite probably black powder proofed. The load you list is a smokeless powder for larger bores, I believe and is not generally suitable for such a small bore. What I mean, is that it may run up pressure pretty fast and you should perhaps be using a slower powder. The smaller the bore, the slower the powder used.
:
Check a shotshell loading manual for 28 bore loads and see the range of powders used there. The slower burning the powder, the better as they aren't quite as violent in building pressure. Use a powder that gives descent velocity with the very lowest pressure. You're looking for pressure well under 10,000PSI. Start several grains below their lowest charge and go from there. You want something in the 1,300fps to 1,500fps range. A full charge of BP should give you a lot more - in the 1,700fps to 1,900fps range.
:
Wad columns are the easy part. Track of the wolf can set you up with wads in card, fibre (1/2" donna conna and 1/16" Walter's Veggie wads) as well as OxYoke fibre wads.
:
I'd use plastic only with smokeless powder. If the black powder gasses get past your wad column, they'll melt plastic onto the bores off the wads. This can be prevented somewhat by using at least 2 hard 1/8" card wads on the powder, underneath the plastic.
:
If one of the filler fibre wads is lubed, this should help keep fouling to a minimun with BP loads. YOou should be able to run at least 10 shots each barrel before wiping/cleaning them out.
:
For 'stacking' the load, it's powder, wad, filler wad or wads(if needed), ball and roll crimp.
:
If using a plastic shot wad, cut the petals and stems off the wad and use the cupped base only when using BP. There must be a hard card wad between the plastic and the powder.
:
Since your balls are bore size, you don't need a plastic wad with the cupped base pointing upwards to centre the ball - lucky you.
:
This rifle has round ball twists and is not suitable for slugs. They will not be stable, although at close range may shoot reasonably well, maybe not. The twist and low velocity dictate round ball.
:
A cleaner shooting load for black powder would have a ball of perhaps .535" patched in lubricated cloth as for a muzzleloading rifle. I'd use something like .022" to .025" denim (10 oz. to 12 oz) and try the fit in a case. Adjust the cloth thickness to get a tight fit in the case. Use something like Hoppe's #9 PLUS. Ordinary Hoppe's #9 is not suitable for black powder.
:
Like I said earlier, I don't have one of these guns. This 'stuff' is general and is useable for most side by sides of excellent condtion. BTW- congratulations - that is an extremely beautiful gun. I'd sure like to pelt a moose with it. Alas, disability pensions don't permit purchases like that.
Hope this info helps remove some of the cobwebs of doubt.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Austrian 28 guage SxS Bore Gun [Re: dherr]
      #108231 - 27/06/08 01:40 AM

Quote:

I have been using plastic cases cut to 2.5" and roll crimping the ends with really light loads (13 grains) of Green dot.
Regards,
Dave




And what were your results?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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