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buckstix
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A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today
      #384057 - 10/04/24 03:11 PM

A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today

I didn't know a lot about this one other than I like the way it looked.

I though it had a miss-matched Bolt, but found that number on the Action also.

I assume this is between the Wars, but not sure of year of mfg.

Here are the specs..

21" Octagon to Round Barrel, Full Matt Rib to Ramp Front Site w/ Silver Bead
Lyman 35 Rear Site - (orig rear site on rib is milled down)
7 lb 6 oz
14" LOP
Type B Floor Plate Lever
Double-Set Triggers
Barrel Rib marked "Mod Mauser: J.P. Sauer & Son"
Barrel side marked "30 U.S.G.1906"
Barrel shank marked "Fluid Steel Krupp Essen"
Barrel marked "Crown N STMG / 10G"
Action and Barrel marked "182644"
Action marked "44580"
All Bolt parts marked "80"
blank brass escutcheon on bottom of stock
Braided Sling


as always comments and opinions are welcome ....

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/SAUER-06-000.jpg



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"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylS
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: buckstix]
      #384059 - 10/04/24 04:44 PM

NICE addition to the fold!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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93x64mm
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: DarylS]
      #384060 - 10/04/24 06:17 PM

Lancaster or Kaudae will give you a date easily enough I reckon!
Perhaps a Model B?
Great little rifle, plenty of case hardening showing!


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buckstix
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: 93x64mm]
      #384065 - 10/04/24 10:14 PM



UPDATE ... I FOUND AN IDENTICAL RIFLE HERE - SAME FRONT SITE AND LYMAN 35 SITE - https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...mp;lctid=509172

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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kuduae
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: buckstix]
      #384074 - 11/04/24 04:27 AM

Quote:

I assume this is between the Wars, but not sure of year of mfg.

Barrel marked "Crown N STMG / 10G"
Action and Barrel marked "182644"
Action marked "44580"
All Bolt parts marked "80"
Braided Sling




The barrel was proofed for the 10 gramm = 150 gr .30-06 load.
44580 is the Mauser, Oberndorf commercial serial number. The position under the receiver shows the action only was intended for sale to another gunmaker, Sauer & Sohn here. It dates the action to 1911.
The Sauer & Sohn serial number 182644 shows the rifle was completed, barreled and stocked in 1912.
The sling is a recent, post-WW2 addition.


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buckstix
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: kuduae]
      #384075 - 11/04/24 05:54 AM

Kuduae,

Thank you for the information. I knew the sling was recent. (made in Spain)

I would never have guessed that the rifle was 112 years old ... wow ! .. it sure survived well.

Are these rare, or just uncommon? I've never seen a JP Sauer gun.

This will be a welcome addition to my "heritage" gun collection.

thanks

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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sharps4590
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: buckstix]
      #384077 - 11/04/24 06:54 AM

I don't know that they're even uncommon, if you look in the right places. J.P Sauer is a long lived and respected concern. I had one in 9 X 57 from about the same time frame.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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lancaster
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: sharps4590]
      #384086 - 11/04/24 02:56 PM

here are two other Sauer&Sohn

this one was heavy reworked, maybe barrel drilled out for 9,3x57 from 8x57I or 9x57

SN 180323








here SN 208120 in 8x57I







I think they had an own style.


the serial numbers don't mean they make 208120 Mauser hunting rifles. most of them are shotguns and combinations guns because the numbers goes continuously no matter what a gun it was.

again,your rifle with the other







looks like Sauer &Sohn

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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kuduae
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: lancaster]
      #384090 - 12/04/24 04:42 AM

Quote:

Are these rare, or just uncommon? I've never seen a JP Sauer gun.




Prewar Sauer & Sohn, Suhl Mausers are rare, but not really uncommon. Survival rate in Germany is quite low due to the disarmament of German hunters at the end of WW2. But as these S&S Mausers were highly regarded for their shape and quality, some surface from time to time.

Quote:

Perhaps a Model B?
Great little rifle, plenty of case hardening showing!



Calling a pre-WW1 Mauser a “model B” is akin to calling a Colt Navy a Peacemaker. The model designations A, B, E, S and M were created by Mauser post-WW1, in 1922. So they do not apply to pre-WW1 Mauser sporters, let alone the differently shaped pre-1912 ones. In no way it applies to rifles built by others on Mauser actions. Nobody calls a Rigby Mauser a “Mauser Modell A”, though it was made lock, stock and barrel at the Mauser, Oberndorf factory, merely finished by Rigby.
Many design details now deemed typical for the interwar years Mauser rifles were in fact developed by Sauer& Sohn long before WW1 and incorporated into the Mauser offerings only later. Such are the lever release floorplate, the Schnabel foreend tip and ribbed half-octagon barrels. Here is a photo of the earlist Sauer & Sohn Mauser sporter I have seen, maybe the first such rifle:



This rifle in 8x57 is built on an early transitional action as used in the 1896-97 German military trials. The action shows some features of the 98 action soon to come. It already has the gas flange on bolt shroud and the third, safety locking lug, but is still cock on closing. The Mauser commercial serial number under receiver, rear magazine wall and small parts is 17! So the completed rifle is datable to pre-1899.It already has the distintive ribbed Suhl barrel, the lever release floorplate and a Schnabel foreend.


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93x64mm
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: kuduae]
      #384091 - 12/04/24 05:35 AM

You certainly know your stuff kuduae!
Thanks for your insights into this rifle's & Mauser's history


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buckstix
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: 93x64mm]
      #384100 - 12/04/24 09:56 PM

Yes, kuduae is certainly a Mauser expert, and he has helped many of us forum members with his knowledge. Thank you Axel for your help.

With my new found awareness of J.P. Sauer & Sohn Sporting rifles, I just purchased another in 8x57 caliber. It is much more used than this 30-06, but looks interesting. It has strange bases for a scope that I have never seen before. I will post the seller's pictures shortly, followed by detail pictures when I get it in hand next week. Maybe someone will recognize the scope bases.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/SAUER8X57-000.jpg



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lancaster
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: buckstix]
      #384182 - 15/04/24 02:01 AM

this is SN 183404 in 8x57I









if you have seen 3 or 4 you know them all

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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kuduae
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: lancaster]
      #384189 - 15/04/24 02:44 AM

Bucksix, your "new" 8x57 S&S rifle looks like another rare pre- 98 transitional action. Does it cock on closing or on opening? A photo of the gas ports in the bolt? Are there low Mauser commercial serial numbers under receiver ring and on rear of magazine box? It seems to be restocked recently by another, definitely not Sauer & Sohn.
On the proprietary S&S inline claw mount, a page from Jim Cate’s “J.P. Sauer & Sohn” book:



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kuduae
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: lancaster]
      #384192 - 15/04/24 02:56 AM

Quote:

this is SN 183404 in 8x57I







Made in 1914. The original scope was apparently drafted for sniper use in WW1, as the scope and claw rings now on the rifle were made in the 1920s.


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buckstix
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: kuduae]
      #384214 - 16/04/24 12:04 AM

Quote:

Bucksix, your "new" 8x57 S&S rifle looks like another rare pre-98 transitional action. Does it cock on closing or on opening? A photo of the gas ports in the bolt? Are there low Mauser commercial serial numbers under receiver ring and on rear of magazine box? It seems to be restocked recently by another, definitely not Sauer & Sohn.


Hello kuduae,
When I get the rifle in hand I will answer your questions.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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buckstix
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: buckstix]
      #384238 - 17/04/24 09:12 AM

Hello kuduae,

Well, I got the rifle in hand today. It is cock on close and there is a little finger that helps hold the bolt handle down. (see third picture from the end) This one has stamps and numbers all over the place - I have shown all that I found. I will be happy to hear what they all mean. The stock looks as old as the rifle but not like the one on the 30-06. I have slugged the bore and its .318 dia. Here are all the photos of the markings. Do you think I could find a scope with the required mounting for this rifle?

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/8x57sauer-000.jpg



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: buckstix]
      #384259 - 18/04/24 06:18 AM

Congratulation, Buckstix you caught a very rare bird here. All Transition pre-98 Mauser actions are rare, but the cock-on -closing type is the rarest among the rare. Most transition actions seen are cock-on-opening with narrow gas escape holes in the bolt body. When I met Lud Olson years ago, he had seen such an action only once on an experimental military rifle at the Aberdeen Prooving Ground collection. Later, Jon Speed was not aware such actions existed and published photos of # 17’s bolt on page 25 of his “Archive” book.
Mauser, Oberndorf numbered all their commercial production in one sequence, regardless of action size, complete rifles of any type or actions only. Up to 1945 total production ran up about 126500. Up to about 1901 you find left over Transition actions mixed in with the various full blown 98 actions, but most are of the less uncommon cock-on-opening version. So I guess less than 100 of your type were ever sold commercially.
Your action already shows the typical Mauser set trigger, built into the special lower tang without a separate housing. The lever release floorplate and the bolt hold down spring finger are Sauer add-ons. You can make out that finger ahead of the bolthandle in the photo I posted above.
The Mauser commercial serial number is 27, while the Sauer & Sohn number is 76838. The set trigger kick-off is a replacement, taken from another rifle.
The rifle was proofed in Suhl for the 1900 standard 8x57I load, 2.75 gram = 42 gr GBP = rifle flake powder and a 227 gr steel jacket bullet. Proofing was done by using the smokeless “4000 atm Special Proof Powder”, shown by the CROWN – crown/N marks. The bore diameter is given with the gauge number 172.28. The “Wilde Mann” was a Sauer & Sohn quality- and trademark.
The Prussian miltary acceptance eagle on the top right barrel flat shows the rifle volunteered/served as a stop-gap sniper rifle in 1915 – 16. Perhaps the original stock was damaged in the trenches and the rifle had to be restocked after the great war. The pencil script in the stock seems to be German. After 1916 the rare scopes were most often removed from these militarized sporting rifles and remounted on Gewehr 98 military sniper rifles. Finding rings to fit the old inline Sauer claw bases is about as likely as cracking a lottery jackpot. These mounts are out of print for more than 100 years by now. They were handmade anyhow. Myself, I have never seen such a mount. A really good German gunsmith may take some raw claw scope rings from EAW and mill and file the corresponding hooks, but it will probably be more expensive than a new rifle.


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buckstix
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: kuduae]
      #384261 - 18/04/24 08:39 AM

Quote:

".... Congratulation, Buckstix you caught a very rare bird here. ..... The set trigger kick-off is a replacement, taken from another rifle. .... Finding rings to fit the old inline Sauer claw bases is about as likely as cracking a lottery jackpot. These mounts are out of print for more than 100 years by now. They were handmade anyhow. ...."


Hello kuduae,
Thank you for such a detailed history about this rifle. In your comments about the "kick-off" do you mean the the #94 found on the parts? I see that #94 on the floor plate assembly and on the trigger lever and there is also a #94 on the bottom of the action. Would these parts have been installed at the time of building the rifle, or added later. As to the special rings - I am an amateur gunsmith / machinist, and I will myself attempt to machine / alter a set of rings to affix a scope to the rifle.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/sauer94.jpg



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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kuduae
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: buckstix]
      #384278 - 18/04/24 08:03 PM

No idea when and by whom that "94" was marked on several action parts. Other letters and numbers are factory internal worker's marks by both Mauser and Sauer, unidentifiable to outsiders even then.

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Parabola
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: kuduae]
      #384489 - 26/04/24 01:01 AM







The Imperial German Army acceptance mark on the clearly civilian barrel of Buckstix’s 8x57J Sauer shows it was taken into sniper service in 1914, probably one of those collected in the Duke of Ratibor’s drive to round up scoped hunting rifles in the military calibre.

The intermediate action may well itself have been of military origin.

This Rigby, retailed by them August 1898 to a Mr. W. H. Fox and originally with a cross-over stock had an intermediate action with the action number 10.

It is in Jon Speed’s book as the first of the Rigby Mauser that he lists. As I recall he said these military trials actions came from trials rifles broken up at the end of the trials and disposed of in the trade

Edited by Parabola (26/04/24 01:10 AM)


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buckstix
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Re: A mystery pre-war 30-06 JP Sauer came home today [Re: kuduae]
      #384672 - 04/05/24 07:27 AM

Quote:

... After 1916 the rare scopes were most often removed from these militarized sporting rifles and remounted on Gewehr 98 military sniper rifles. Finding rings to fit the old inline Sauer claw bases is about as likely as cracking a lottery jackpot. These mounts are out of print for more than 100 years by now. They were handmade anyhow. Myself, I have never seen such a mount....




Hello kuduae,

Well, I didn't crack a lottery jackpot, but I did find a fellow in Texas that sold me his scope. He bought it years ago because he recognized the rings as rare early JP Sauer type. Unfortunately the scope has been abused with a cracked lens, and crooked cross-hairs, and it is so cloudy that you can't see through it. I am not sure it can be repaired, so I might just look for a different scope to put into the rings.

Perhaps you can tell me something about the scope.

http://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/8x57sauer-scope-000.jpg



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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