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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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Zapata
.224 member


Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 11
Making your own double rifle
      #7301 - 23/01/04 12:51 PM

Hey, Y'all,

Here's one to stir up the troops, and possibly make a few shake in their tennie pumps, but what the hey-----

There are lots of good, solid doubles, in twelve, sixteen and twenty gauge out there, some with double under-bolt , some with single under-bolt and doll's-head lock, some with doll's-head lock only, and some with all three. So here's my somewhat addle-brained question; after looking over the previous post about building a 22 rf, .218 Bee, .22 Hornet on a .410 frame, why not a larger starting platform, say a 16 ga, being rebarrelled to some straight-walled, or nearly so, .40- or .45-cal. case (.45-90 or .45-120, even .450 Express come to mind)? What would be the limiting factors in such an endeavor? Heat treat of the original breech? Frame stretch? Type of lock-up among the many types? Quantity of LORTAB on hand?

I've an idea that the inherent strength of many of the earlier double rifles (read pre-1925) wasn't a whole lot better, if in fact as good as, most of the modern double shotguns. There again, I've been wrong about nearly everything in the past (women, marriage, earning power, capacity for cheap scotch, parental lineage of local county sheriff, length of ensuing incarceration, etc.) Since this the only way, short of trading my whole twenty-nine-gun collection for one relatively cheap double rifle, I could ever hope to own one, this question is not made totally in jest.Plus, I just LLLLUUUUUVVVVVV a good argument!

I'm a retired manufacturing troubleshooter-engineer and before that spent thirty years as a toolmaker/machinist, all in the aircraft engine industry. I've done so much for so long with so little, I'm now qualified to do anything with NOTHING!! Having said that, no type or ammount of machine-work or hand-finesse is beyond my capability.

Anybody out there ever hear of this being attempted before? C'mon, guys, I'm burnin' inside!!!!!

"When in Doubt, Use More Gun!!!"


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Bakes
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Reged: 31/01/03
Posts: 589
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: Zapata]
      #7304 - 23/01/04 01:37 PM

Not really a double rifle but. Last time I was at my smiths place he showed me a DB shotgun that had a burst right barrel. He hammered back the barrel and then put 45-70 barrel down there. Left barrel 12g, right 45-70. The gun had peep sights as well. It looked cool!!!and shot well.

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mickey
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: Bakes]
      #7307 - 23/01/04 02:20 PM

There is a book out there on making Double Rifles from Shotguns. I can't remember the author or the title but I'm sure someone can.

It is quite doable by a competent hand, the only tough part being the regulation which is quite easy to understand and quite difficult to actually do.

I have a 303 that has only two under lugs and it seems to work just fine.

Just to be on the safe side I would look for an action that has three fastners. I think that if you could find one in a 16 ga it would be nearly perfect. You can monoblock the barrels or start fresh with chopper lumps. You can buy the chopper lumps from Galazan and If you want a sweet English action you can get an out of proof shotgun action, with all of the hardware, at auction in England.

Add all of that and allot of expertise and creativity and you are off.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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ThomasEdwards
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: Zapata]
      #7308 - 23/01/04 04:02 PM

...if i am not mistaken, california rigbys have done exactly what you are proposing, but charging 30k+ for shotgun-based boxlock double rifles...

...my understanding is that rigbys' double rifle formula consists of a merkel boxlock shotgun receiver, a pair of pac-nor barrels, and the firm's own wood stocks...


...i can't see why you could not do the same...tho regulation of the barrels may pose some challenges...


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: Zapata]
      #7314 - 23/01/04 06:04 PM

Zapata,
Yes, my travel anywhere, carry anywhere, shoot anything anywhere double is built on a shotgun action.
It was custom built for a mate of mine by a smith who had built at least 6 other similar doubles.
To cut a long story short, the smith f*cked the regulation up and it shot 12 inches apart at 50.
I bought the rifle for a song and sent it off to a smith who had regulated a lot of doubles.
He reregulated it.
The gun now shot into 1 inch at 50.
Trouble is after 30 shots his solder let go at the wedge.

I said "to hell with gunsmiths", and stripped and rebuilt the barrels totally myself and also did the regulation myself.
At the same time I fitted a scope using a base I designed and machined myself.
That was more than 3 years ago.
The gun now shoots 4 shot ragged holes (2 from each barrel) at 50 yards.
It is a great rifle and I've shot a lot of game with it.


A double rifle can be built on a shotgun action but there are many things that can affect how well it will turn out.





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Zapata
.224 member


Reged: 20/01/04
Posts: 11
Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #7351 - 24/01/04 09:53 AM

Hey, Y'all,
4seventy, could I ask the brand and type, also the size (12, 16, 20?)that your double was built on? I personally have a huge preference for sidelocks, preferably the grand old L. C. Smith, but they on average have a little less wood in the wrist and around the lock plates to take up the back-thrust. Is this a concern, or am I an old lady? Is your double a .470, as your handle would suggest, or do you own more than one double? How about my selection of calibers? I envision either a .470, or the .45-120 (3" case, same powder capacity as the now-popular .458 Express, which is a 3" 458-style Magnum case, except with the same rim as the .45-70). Hulls for the .45-120 are readily available, and relatively speaking, dirt cheap. You should be able to crank out 2200-2300 fps with a 500 gr. Hornie Solid in this length case while keeping pressure 'way down there. Whacha think, guys? Everyone's opinion is welcome and valued.

P.S. If someone could come up with the name and author of the book that Mickey mentioned, I'd certainly try to secure a copy! And Thanks in advance.

"When in Doubt, Use More Gun!!!"


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: Zapata]
      #7355 - 24/01/04 10:34 AM

Zapata,
My 470 is a Belgium made SxS pre war.
My custom double is 400-350 NE O/U built on a Ruger Red Label Stainless 20 gauge action.
This action is often referred to as a "boxlock" by some who don't know as much as they think they do!


In reply to:

I envision either a .470, or the .45-120 (3" case, same powder capacity as the now-popular .458 Express, which is a 3" 458-style Magnum case, except with the same rim as the .45-70). Hulls for the .45-120 are readily available, and relatively speaking, dirt cheap. You should be able to crank out 2200-2300 fps with a 500 gr. Hornie Solid in this length case while keeping pressure 'way down there. Whacha think, guys? Everyone's opinion is welcome and valued.





The 450 Nitro Express pushed a 480 grainer at 2150 for a pressure of 17 tons.
17 tons is "up there" as far as double rifle pressures are concerned.
The 450 NE has a larger case capacity than the 45-120 so I would not be trying to achieve 2200-2300 fps with 500 gn bullet in the 45-120 case size in a double!
I would suggest useing 450 NE, 450 NE No2, 500-450 NE or 470 NE.


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: Zapata]
      #7356 - 24/01/04 10:57 AM

In reply to:

P.S. If someone could come up with the name and author of the book that Mickey mentioned, I'd certainly try to secure a copy! And Thanks in advance.




I get a mailout every so often from a book supplier here in oz and the book in question is on his latest list.
It is called "Building Double Rifles On Shotgun Actions" by Brown.
I have not seen or read this book so have no idea if it is any good or not.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #7363 - 24/01/04 11:23 AM

4seventy

Can you post or PM me the name of the book supplier. Thanks.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: Zapata]
      #7365 - 24/01/04 11:29 AM

Zapata

A simple way to build your own double is to start with a double rifle.

Buy a Pedersoli Kodiak in .45/70.

Have the chambers rebored to your .45/120 or .450 No2 NE.

And you have a nice cheap double rifle with a better cartrdige than the .45/70.

If you are in the USA there is a gunsmith that has done this successfully several times and the rifle has not required re-regulation. Of course it may just need it after rechambering .

The Pedersoli does have exposed hammers but that wouldn't bother me. Very 19th century.

And this is the beast.





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #7368 - 24/01/04 11:38 AM

In reply to:

4seventy

Can you post or PM me the name of the book supplier. Thanks.




Certainly.
Peter Moncrieff
54 Zetland Road,
Mont Albert,
Vic 3127
Phone (03) 98986694
Email peter@moncrieffbooks.com
Website www.moncrieffbooks.com

Now make sure you tell him that if he sells heaps from this free plug that he owes me a free copy!
Failing that Nitro can I borrow your copy when you're finished???


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #7390 - 24/01/04 02:27 PM

In reply to:

It is called "Building Double Rifles On Shotgun Actions" by Brown.
I have not seen or read this book so have no idea if it is any good or not.




The name of the book is correct, The publishing co. E-mail is. www.bundukipub@hotmail.com they also have a website: www.bundukipublishing.com
It sells for $52.95 USD or $57.95 USD for a signed copy, includeing shipping in the Contintal USA. It can be bought by credit card from the publisher. It is a Hard backed book, with 187 pages with pictures of the operations being explained on almost every page. The author is W.Ellis Brown! He lives in Fort Collins, Colorado!

I have a copy of this book, and it is quite good, and though I disagree with some of his methods, his finished product is very nice! The book is well worth the price, IMO!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: Zapata]
      #7391 - 24/01/04 02:36 PM

Zapata, (shoe), I have one of the Pedersolis that has been rechembered to 458 RCBS, and it is going to be re-chambered to 450#2 NE shortly. The Pedersoli is a very strong hammer rifle, and is well made. NitroX is right this is really the way to go for a double rifle that is right for rifle chamber pressures. The LC Smith is a nice old shotgun, and is fine for shotgun use, but i don't consider the action strong enough, and the hook up is pritty frgile for rifle use. Like the 311 Savage becomes a self opener in many cases!

The larger chamberings have been done many times, the whole idea of the .22 LR, or Hornet was simply because it is sledom done, and is an oddity. Additionally, it can be done, litterly, on any action, because of the lack of high pressures!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7392 - 24/01/04 02:49 PM

Yeah, the Ped may be a good way to go but what if Zap really wants a hammerless gun?

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #7396 - 24/01/04 03:19 PM

If he wants a hammerless double rifle,and wants a big bore, he first needs to find a quality fairly new shotgun action to start with. The trouble is, most shotguns that are good enough to to make a double rifle from, are almost as expensive as a good used double rifle! Pritty is, not necessarily means "pritty does"! His likeing of the old LC Smiths is an example. It is almost the weakest shotgun action made,that is more expensive than a Savage 311! A real good action is the Browning BSS action. It will take a lot of cartridge, but they are getting hard to find. Someone speaking of the RIGBY being made on Merkel shotgun actions. This is not true, they both are being made on Anson& Deeley rifle actions. Merkel shotguns are made on rifle actions. This is not a draw back, every gun maker in England uses actions made by someone else. Most are A&D, and Webbley actions. Many of them use barreled actions made in Germany, and finish them, and engrave their name on them. The only makers I know of who make their own actions are B.Searcy, and most of the German, and Belgian makers.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Hauptjäger
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Reged: 03/01/04
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #7421 - 25/01/04 03:36 PM

NitroX
WOW! What a great idea. I would have never of thought of rechambering a Pedersoli Kodiak from .45-70 to a .450 No2 NE. One thing though, I have heard and read that the Kodiak’s were not regulated very well / consistent among guns. Is this true? Another question would be how much of an issue would the hammers be in a charge-stopping situation. Last question for now, how much would rechambering and possible regulating run a man?


--------------------
To a point you can never have too much horsepower!

Hauptjager


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #7434 - 26/01/04 01:03 AM

Take a look at this:

http://www.champlinarms.com/gundetail.cfm?id=1385

This would really make a nice set up. A delux grade cased with a set of 20 ga barrels as well. Another $500 for re-chambering and you've got a nice double rifle, and a shotgun as well.

The hammers are no drawback to stopping a charge. Both barrels are cocked before the fight starts. After the chambers are reloaded both hammers are cocked again. The Pedersoli has rebounding hammers, and is the safest double rifle to carry loaded. The hammerless double is cocked all the time if loaded, with nothing but a little button holding the strikers back, but because you can't redily see it is cocked, one doesn't worry about it. If a hammer rifle is cocked, it can be seen from a distance!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7436 - 26/01/04 01:47 AM



KODIAK Mk. IV DELUXE 45/70 & 20 Orig. 2 Bbl. Set - A Real Fun GunDetail
Style: Caliber: Price:
Double Rifle

45-70 & 20 $ 4695.00
Description:
#C5494, Kodiak Mark IV Deluxe Factory Original Two barrel Toplever Rebounding hammer set Made in Brescia Italy by Davide Pedersoli in 1992, It has 24” Dovetail lump 45-70 barrels with express sights w/ 1 standing & 3 folding, Plus a 28” set of 20 Gauge barrels with 3” chambers at .621 .018 & .030 (Imp. Mod. & Full ), Each set of barrels with its own forend, 15 x 1 3/8 x 2 1/4” over a 5/8” pad, Weights 7 lbs. 8 oz. as a 20 Bore & 9 lbs. 12 oz. as a 45-70, 25% coverage of very nice engraving with a Cape Buffalo on the trigger plate, A doggone nice piece of wood. Cased in a nice leather trunk that fits the rig well with both barrels. It is a special order Deluxe 2 barrel set as it also is numbered Mike 001. I don’t believe there is many of these two barrel sets around. I have not seen another. A fun gun that remains in excellent condition.

*************************

Very nice and wouldn't you love a combination like that.
I grew up with "Hahn" external hammers and would love a rifle so setup. Mac is right too, very safe unless you cock them when ready to hunt seriously.

Price is a bit steep isn't it ?


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #7442 - 26/01/04 03:56 AM

In reply to:

Very nice and wouldn't you love a combination like that.
I grew up with "Hahn" external hammers and would love a rifle so setup. Mac is right too, very safe unless you cock them when ready to hunt seriously.

Price is a bit steep isn't it ?




This rifle with a pair of shot barrels, in the field grade is $4695 New. The delux carries a primium,over the field grade, but includes the very well done engraving, on the satten reciever this version is only available dirrectly from Pedersoli, and doesn't include the two barrel fitted case!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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nopride2
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #7453 - 26/01/04 06:58 AM

If you are going to rechamber a 45-70 the gun will have to be re-regulated. I have a Chapuis 45-70 that has been regulated to shoot a 400 grain bullet at 1800 FPS. With the proper bullet I think this gun is adequate for any soft skinned game on this planet. Also, I don't think I would want to shoot a 450 nitro in this eight pound gun.

Dave


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mickey
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: nopride2]
      #7455 - 26/01/04 07:54 AM

On AR there is a discussion about the 45-70 not being enough for Bison. I disagree with that part but it is far from a good choice for 'any' soft skinned game. A rechamber to 450#2 or 450 3 1/4 and a recoil reducer would be a much better option.

I think that the two barrel set is pretty neat. I have never actually seen a Pederesoli. Is the workmanship equivalant to a $4500 Euro 9.3?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7458 - 26/01/04 09:32 AM

In reply to:

The hammerless double is cocked all the time if loaded, with nothing but a little button holding the strikers back



Mac,
What type of double has a safety which holds the strikers back?
I've seen a variety of safety systems on doubles.
On some boxlock guns the safety does nothing more than prevent the triggers from being pulled, where some other action types have an interupter system which can prevent the tumblers from reaching the firing pins etc etc.
Then of course there's the the Krieghoff decocking safety which is a totally different system again.


But I don't recall ever seeing a design where the actual strikers are prevented from movement or held in any way when the safety is on.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #7466 - 26/01/04 10:59 AM

4seventy, you are absolutely right, most have only trigger blocks, some have blocks that block the sear from being disingaged, then on the hammer rifles you have the stalking safeties that is a slide the actually engages a slot in the hammer that blocks it's movement, so the rifle can be carried with the hammers cocked. The Barred safety is a system that blocks the safety button from being pushed to fire possition. As you know there are many types that work in different ways, but all supposidely insure the tumblers stay away from the pins till you are ready to shoot! The intercepters, you mention, were an attempt to guard against doubleing caused by heavy recoil. The intercepter is moved out of the way of the tumbler only when the trigger is pulled for that barrel. The problem with these is, if the rifle does attempt to double,and drop the other tumbler, the second barrel is left uncocked without the shooter knowing it till he pulls the trigger on the second barrel. SUPRISE! If the intercepter was not there, and the rifle doubled, at least the target would likely recieve the second shot as well!

All I was saying was,without going into the pages it would take to explain all the different types of safety systems, that the hammerless is cocked all the time,if it is loaded, but because you can't see the tumblers, you pay no attention to the fact it is cocked, and depend on the safety, which is not always SAFE! Yet people worry about a hammer rifle, which is far safer to carry loaded, as long as it has rebounding hammers!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7468 - 26/01/04 11:15 AM

In reply to:

As you know there are many types that work in different ways, but all supposidely insure the strikers stay away from the pins till you are ready to shoot!





How do you keep the strikers away from the pins?
I presume by pins you mean firing pins?
The "strikers" and "firing pins" are the same item are they not?


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Making your own double rifle [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #7470 - 26/01/04 12:02 PM

In reply to:

The intercepters, you mention, were an attempt to guard against doubleing caused by heavy recoil. The intercepter is moved out of the way of the stiker only when the trigger is pulled for that barrel. The problem with these is, if the rifle does attempt to double,and drop the other striker, the second barrel is left uncocked without the shooter knowing it till he pulls the trigger on the second barrel. SUPRISE!




Mac,
The intercepter I was referring to is the one meant to help prevent accidental discharge by blocking or catching the hammer/s fall before it reaches the firing pin/s when the safety is in the on position.
Usually called hammer intercepter or interrupter.
Some versions still have the iterrupter in place even with the safety in the off position.

The intercepter which helps prevent double discharge is sometimes called a sear interceptor and performs a different task, depending on the type of action and whether single or 2 triggers are fitted.

Yeah, a double discharge leaves the second barrel "out of action" regardless of whether a hammer intercepter is fitted or not and could cost a life!
Any gun that doubles should be fixed!


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