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NitroXAdministrator
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Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting?
      #342358 - 15/06/20 05:56 PM

Old vintage guns and rifles often had hammers. Indeed old one always had hammers. Many of the largest bore double rifles have hammers.

The largest bores are definitely for dangerous game.

Recently we have had some articles posted on the .577 and hammers are evident on at least one double rifle.

In the last week, on the NE facebook group we had one person claiming, even demanding, that hammers have no place on a dangerous game rifle.

What do you gentlemen of the NE forums think? And why?

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: NitroX]
      #342361 - 15/06/20 07:53 PM

I don't see anything wrong with them - just a different way to do things. Different routine - cock before firing. You can get caught out with hammerless guns and the safety - I've somehow knocked my safety on during reloading my Merkel in BGR matches. It's happened a couple of times. Good for identifying flinches, bad for getting shots away in time.

Edited by mauserand9mm (15/06/20 07:55 PM)


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Rockdoc
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #342364 - 15/06/20 09:01 PM

I’d love to try hunting with a large bore hammer rifle.

A Spaniel with ears!


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Longknife
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #342369 - 15/06/20 10:23 PM

A double without hammers looks like a dog without ears!!!!!

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Longknife

Edited by Longknife (15/06/20 10:24 PM)


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Huvius
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: Longknife]
      #342374 - 15/06/20 11:58 PM

IMO, the best dangerous game double would be a self cocking hammer rifle.
Operates exactly as a hammerless action BUT you also have the ability to bring the loaded rifle to half cock (safe blocking the actual hammer rather than the trigger) and be able to return silently to full cock.
Also, a quick glace at the rifle tells you it is cocked or if an actual misfire had occurred which is unlikely these days I guess.
The argument against hammer guns is largely overblown today as I doubt anybody is really going after DG without a PH anymore. More of an historical discussion considering many hunters went it alone as far as the shooting was concerned.
Reloading on a standard hammer rifle is a bit slower than a hammerless too I suppose.

One thing is certain, hammer guns are more beautiful than the hammerless!

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rigbymauser
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: Huvius]
      #342387 - 16/06/20 03:57 AM

Well. Its easy to write hammerguns have worked before for dangerous game..why not now?.
Back in the ol`days hammerguns were the norm and most used as nothing else were available. That meant sportsmen in general was proficient with side-by-side hammerguns way more than we I used to here in 2020.
I haven`t any experience in hunting dangerous game and I doubt I will ever get it. This however I can recommend if one wants to gain experience in using a side-by-side hammergun is to buy a hammer shotgun and go birdhunting in SA, England or other places where one can enjoy mass shooting and develop gun practice. I am sure after a week cocking hammers and learn point-ability the adaption of this empirial gained knowledge to a big game hammerrifle rifle wouldn`t take long. It all about workability with use of hammerguns. The Jones underlever is a bit slower to work than a toplever for volumes of fast flying doves but fast enough. I am not in a hurry.

Edited by rigbymauser (16/06/20 04:00 AM)


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EDELWEISS
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #342394 - 16/06/20 09:49 AM

Hahahaha this sounds like the same argument for combat handguns. I started as a MP with a 1911 designed to be carried cocked and locked, except the Army wouldnt allow anyone below SGT to carry with a round in the chamber and certainly not cocked and locked. Then we went to the M9 and its DA/SA trigger/hammer. Now the Army is being issued striker fired M17 SIGs. Some how 1911s were safe to carry into combat for 100 years, then DA/SA anwswered a problem that didnt exist outside of training and now its a new answer with Strikers.

So we fought how many wars with hammer guns, telling soldiers to cock the hammer before shooting??? As this relates to Dangerous Game, hammers MAY be a tad bit slower when startled; but certainly no slower than flipping the safety off. K-Guns have a cocking lever instead of a safety but its a heavier spring and not as easily flipped "off" in an emergency encounter.

My habit when carrying my Merkel is to load it, close it, flick the safety off, then put it back "ON" for carrying. It takes about 500 repetitions to burn something into muscle memory, so I sat in front of the TV with dummy rounds and repeated the same motions over and over. Now Im looking for a Paradox with hammers. Ill PRACTICE cocking without looking and lowering the hammers. I may even try it with live primers in otherwise empty cases just to add a bit of seriousness to the maneuvers.

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DarylS
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342401 - 16/06/20 12:14 PM

That's likely a good idea, EDELWEISS, with primed cases.

I bought a side by side Field hammer gun in 2 1/2" 12 bore for shooting at rendezvous.

The gun is sweet and working the hammers was not a big deal. Missed 2 birds (or was it 1?) on the quail walk
thus pulled out a second place. There were close to 50 shooters.
The fellow who won, was shooting a 2 3/4" chambered modern single shot with a hammer - choked, of course. Had to get on them quickly with the cylinder bored double.
All black powder loads, of course.


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4seventy
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: Huvius]
      #342402 - 16/06/20 03:01 PM

Quote:

IMO, the best dangerous game double would be a self cocking hammer rifle.
Operates exactly as a hammerless action BUT you also have the ability to bring the loaded rifle to half cock (safe blocking the actual hammer rather than the trigger) and be able to return silently to full cock.
Also, a quick glace at the rifle tells you it is cocked or if an actual misfire had occurred which is unlikely these days I guess.





Self cocking hammergun double barrel shotgun action designs date back more than 120 years.
I doubt they were overly popular as those old ones don't seem to turn up for sale too often these days.

The modern Krieghoff double rifle's cocking slide can be used to achieve a somewhat similar result, but without the exposed hammers/tumblers.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #342411 - 16/06/20 08:25 PM

Quote:

This however I can recommend if one wants to gain experience in using a side-by-side hammergun is to buy a hammer shotgun and go birdhunting in SA, England or other places where one can enjoy mass shooting and develop gun practice. I am sure after a week cocking hammers and learn point-ability the adaption of this empirial gained knowledge to a big game hammerrifle rifle wouldn`t take long. It all about workability with use of hammerguns. The Jones underlever is a bit slower to work than a toplever for volumes of fast flying doves but fast enough. I am not in a hurry.




I agree completely. I started off shooting my Dad's two hammer shotguns. A .410 side by side, and a 12-bore Hollis side by side.

I think the .410 was tightly chocked. I remember the dust explosions at range when I missed a rabbit. Not a great big circle! I learned to shoot that .410 really well. When I started with it, its extractor was weak, and I needed to carry a cleaning rod to push out cases. Much later I had it repaired.

When I switched to the 12-bore, I probably shot worse. An easier gun to shoot and got lazier shooting! That gun is the one I have described elsewhere as not possibly being very safe. Certainly needed the shorter shells - 2 1/2" - which I did NOT use or know about back then.

I also have a 12-bore Stevens - an American brand I believe - which was owned by my other Grandfather and my Uncle gave it to me. Hammers as well. In better condition. However missing one hammer, my Uncle had 'temporarily' lost it, since refound, I hope, but I don't have it yet. Need to get it repaired by someone competent. Then I will shoot it. I hoped to use it at Vintagers shoots. Never have shot at a Vintager shoot! A day's full drive away.

Using a hammer shotgun is slightly slower in lock time than an internal lock. So shooting clays is slightly slower and more difficult. Some farm guys with their old hammer side by sides shoot better than guys with their fancy special clay shotguns. In the usage and practice.

I love using hammer shotguns.

--------------------
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...
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342412 - 16/06/20 08:43 PM

Quote:

Some how 1911s were safe to carry into combat for 100 years, then DA/SA anwswered a problem that didnt exist outside of training and now its a new answer with Strikers.




Bureaucrats love fixing problems which never existed in the first place. While sitting at their desks.

Quote:

So we fought how many wars with hammer guns, telling soldiers to cock the hammer before shooting??? As this relates to Dangerous Game, hammers MAY be a tad bit slower when startled; but certainly no slower than flipping the safety off. K-Guns have a cocking lever instead of a safety but its a heavier spring and not as easily flipped "off" in an emergency encounter.




A trend perhaps for legal reasons, is a lot of Germanic guns do have uncocking devices, and even modern sorts of external hammers or hammers which can be uncocked. I remember seeing some sort of modern hammers, unlike the older ones on an Austrian break open gun. Perhaps someone can find it? I am sure it is on NE somewhere.

I think for the Professional Hunter who has a double rifle to back up clients, to have such a DR which uncocks, is a huge advantage. What use is an unloaded double rifle, with no rounds in the chambers? And loaded chambers, one must rely on the safety only. Of course good users have good firearms safety skills and keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. But how much better to be able to carry a DR with loaded chambers, but uncocked. And if dropped, eg on its butt, does not fire. The uncocking/cocking "safety" is usually less likely to get bumped or knocked into a fire position.

External hammers are similar. They CAN be knocked open. But are as the above uncocking safeties, much safer to easily carry loaded chambers. Have never seen a PH using external hammers though. Not surprising, most PHs are not wealthy. Those that can afford a DR go for a modern rifle. Hammers are for old timers and clients with vintage guns.

Quote:


My habit when carrying my Merkel is to load it, close it, flick the safety off, then put it back "ON" for carrying. It takes about 500 repetitions to burn something into muscle memory, so I sat in front of the TV with dummy rounds and repeated the same motions over and over. Now Im looking for a Paradox with hammers. Ill PRACTICE cocking without looking and lowering the hammers. I may even try it with live primers in otherwise empty cases just to add a bit of seriousness to the maneuvers.




Ha ha, I used TV elephants to practice shooting elephants in the brain. TV docos, the makers would be horrified to know were being used in such a way. An calendars and books. Everytime I saw an elephant, quickly estimated the shooting point to reach the brain. TV doco elephants you often have split sections before a scene changes.

Its good practice for all sorts of repetitive training. I would NOT use live primers in the house. I would be too scared closing the gun seeing live primers and have to quadruple check they aren't loaded rounds!

Good repetitive practice is something a lot of people miss. Having "99" guns, and shooting them once a decade each. Every gun different. I once found I would reload at the waist not at the shoulder so practiced that. Usually it is automatic now. A .22 RF is fine to build up the repetitive action. The working the bolt at the waist comes from the desire to not loose brass for reloads. For a dangerous game rifle in particular this is stupid. For a break open gun, different of course.

The idea of taking a safety off when at the shoulder is another practice to make automatic.

And for hammer guns, at the shoulder as well. I think I don't do this for hammer guns. Will have a think how I want to do it. Consciously before raising, or at the shoulder? May depend on the circumstances.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: DarylS]
      #342413 - 16/06/20 08:44 PM

Quote:

That's likely a good idea, EDELWEISS, with primed cases.

I bought a side by side Field hammer gun in 2 1/2" 12 bore for shooting at rendezvous.

The gun is sweet and working the hammers was not a big deal. Missed 2 birds (or was it 1?) on the quail walk
thus pulled out a second place. There were close to 50 shooters.
The fellow who won, was shooting a 2 3/4" chambered modern single shot with a hammer - choked, of course. Had to get on them quickly with the cylinder bored double.
All black powder loads, of course.




Well done Daryl. Amazing how the winner is often someone shooting something otherwise a handicap.

"Quail"? I'm guessing these are quail like clays? What do they do, suddenly burst up from a bush while you are doing the walk?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (16/06/20 08:46 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: NitroX]
      #342414 - 16/06/20 08:55 PM

Quote:

In the last week, on the NE facebook group we had one person claiming, even demanding, that hammers have no place on a dangerous game rifle.




You might guess what I think? I shut this fool down pretty quickly.

He had posted twice separately almost exactly the same thing - "Hammer rifles have zero place in modern dangerous game hunting".

I asked him, had he ever actually used one? Never got a reply or another post. I guessed he was a facebook armchair shooter or hunter with zero experience from the tone of the comment. Maybe has hunted or shot, but never with a hammer firearm. Facebook is where lots of shooters and hunters go nowadays, but so many dickheads and also experts with no real knowledge. The bigger a page or group gets, the worse a lot of comments get. FORUMS are so much better. Where we all agree, all the time! Ha Ha. Joke. Discussion is good. Especially with some fact and experience.

I also shut this guy down, as I also do not like people who think they can get onto groups I host, and shut down the whole discussion. Its what we do, post and share and discuss, in good nature, and without insults.

I had another FB member who is knowledgeable an Aussie with lots of vintage guns, a member for a single day, telling someone bowhunting was not a topic for the fb NE group! We've had bowhunters on here since day ONE. Bow hunting is even more vintage than BP! BTW if this guy isn't on these forums already, you should be!!! Good knowledge, good guns, and also uses them! Join up if you read this!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: NitroX]
      #342415 - 16/06/20 09:04 PM

One reason to have external hammers.

Recoil.

Double discharges.

Here is David shooting his .600 Nitro Express double. A Holland & Holland with external hammers.

David quite wisely only cocks one hammer at a time. If the second barrel went off as well it would be quite dramatic. Either from the lock slipping or the shooter twanging the second trigger under recoil. And the latter happens more on safaris than many a client ever will admit per PHs.

David under recoil. Love these images.



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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: NitroX]
      #342416 - 16/06/20 09:07 PM

And ...



--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: NitroX]
      #342423 - 16/06/20 10:02 PM

David shooting his Holland & Holland Double Rifle in .600 Nitro Express - GIF



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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: NitroX]
      #342424 - 16/06/20 10:03 PM

David shooting his Holland & Holland Double Rifle in .600 Nitro Express - GIF



--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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rigbymauser
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342431 - 17/06/20 12:12 AM

Quote:

Now Im looking for a Paradox with hammers. Ill PRACTICE cocking without looking and lowering the hammers.




I know of a gundealer in England that has a HH paradox 12bore with hammers for sale.
Its been regulated with modern factory ammunition.

Nice looking gun.


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DarylS
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: NitroX]
      #342435 - 17/06/20 01:52 AM

Quote:

David shooting his Holland & Holland Double Rifle in .600 Nitro Express - GIF






Oh yeah - what FUN! - NOT. Not even once for me. Getting too old for that stuff. I used to revel in shooting recoiling guns - not any more, thanks.

John with the quail walk, 2 shooters, about 60' apart, start walking forward, gun in the at-ready position. At some time after they start walking, a centrally located trap behind them throws out a pair of clay birds. Of course, one goes left, one right. Guy on the right side shoots that bird, left guy that bird.
20 shots per person in the event. Fire a shot, go to the end of the line.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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EDELWEISS
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: DarylS]
      #342454 - 17/06/20 11:07 AM

WOW! nice set of sequence pics, QUITE Exciting, I bet.... Ill admit I hadnt considered an unintentional double shot (especially on an older gun).

Taylor's makes a SxS Coach Gun with the hammers slightly "tilted" toward each other, making it possible to cock both barrels at the same time, in a single motion. I have a pair of them. They handle better than any coach guns Ive ever tried.

I also never considered NOT cocking both barrels. Unintentional "doubling" aside, It seems a bit foolish NOT to cock both hammers when preparing to shoot at Dangerous Game. Am I wrong in believing that the whole point of Double Guns, is the fastest second shot?

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342455 - 17/06/20 11:22 AM

Quote:

...

I also never considered NOT cocking both barrels. Unintentional "doubling" aside, It seems a bit foolish NOT to cock both hammers when preparing to shoot at Dangerous Game. Am I wrong in believing that the whole point of Double Guns, is the fastest second shot?




I agree. The lockwork in a double rifle is duplicated for reliability. If it "doubles" there is something wrong that needs to be fixed. Having said that my Merkel will always double if the rear trigger is pressed first - design issue for that version.

Also note that hammerless DGR rifles typically have a non-auto safety, so there's no extra sequence steps to take to get those shots away quickly.

Edited by mauserand9mm (17/06/20 11:23 AM)


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EDELWEISS
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #342468 - 17/06/20 10:39 PM

Im going to add that hammers are an immediate visual and tactile indication of the gun's status. Its a BOLD reminder, much more so than a tiny button. Its clear to anyone in sight range.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #342473 - 17/06/20 11:40 PM

Yes it is normal to have both hammers cocked. I certainly do on shotguns.

But if say hunting buffalo or elephant, if both barrels are discharged, you have an empty gun and probably one bullet zipping out uselessly. A lot longer to reload and fire again, than merely thumb back a second hammer and fire the second barrel.

Also these very heavy recoiling rifles, you aren't going to have an instant second shot. You have to deal with the recoil first.

If compared to a bolt action, the thumbing back of the second hammer is still faster than working a bolt ... "no I disagree with that, I can work my bolt so fast !!! " .... mmmmm bullshit .... a person saying that has probably not shot a .600 NE.

Yes I think two hammers back is better, but I also do not own a .600 NE double rifle. I have shot David's rifle. I have more "gravitas" than David. Thankfully less "gravitas" now than then. I will have to post the fat gut photo.

It would be good to hear Ahmed577's comments. He has a H&H .600 NE as well. I took a photo of Graham Williams in Darwin holding it, having borrowed it for the BGRC National shoot a few years ago. Have never posted those photos! Sorry Graham.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: NitroX]
      #379679 - 27/09/23 04:52 PM

Do you hammer or not?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Re: Hammers on firearms for dangerous game hunting? [Re: NitroX]
      #379688 - 28/09/23 04:02 AM

Both inside "hammers" of a hammerless gun are cocked, so why not cock both side hammers?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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