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Huvius
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: Vette447]
      #338898 - 10/03/20 01:05 AM

The H&H bolt gun you bought is made on a magnum action too. Not many were.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: Vette447]
      #338903 - 10/03/20 06:51 AM

Vette, great purchase, fantastic to be able to get hold of an original 375 H&H especially such an early one. Also very lucky to be still have the original peep sight attached. Everybody raves about the Rigby Peep Sight (Me included) but Jeffery and H&H also had very interesting and well made peep sights of their own. Would love to see some photos when you get hold of the rifle.

Matt.

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twobobbwana
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: xausa]
      #338975 - 12/03/20 11:35 AM

Quote:

All my competition shotguns, mostly Perazzis, have single triggers. Despite this fact, I would never want a single trigger on a double rifle. If your shotgun fails to function, you get another chance.

To me, the big advantage of a double rifle is two separate lock mechanisms, so that if one fails, the other is still available. A single trigger negates that advantage, since failure by it causes you to lose both locks. Taylor refers to this in his "African Rifles and Cartridges."

Some people have difficulty with shifting from a single trigger shotgun to a double trigger shotgun, drilling, combination gun or double rifle. For whatever reason, I do not. I can switch from single to double triggers and from automatic or double shotguns to pumps without a bobble.

The answer is practice, practice, practice.




People forget that single triggers can be mechanical (you can fire the second barrel even if the first one fails) and innertia (recoil of first shot activates trigger to fire second barrel) so there is no reason to believe that a double rifle cannot have a "mechanical" single trigger.

That way you get an attempt at firing both barrels no matter what.


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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: twobobbwana]
      #338979 - 12/03/20 02:40 PM

Inertia set mechanical aka Browning shotguns.
What happens if you want to fire the other barrel of no recoil to select if, you can physically choose it by smacking the butt plate with your palm hard enough to do this.
Hope you have time for that!

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: DarylS]
      #338980 - 12/03/20 02:52 PM

Daryl, on a Browning with inertia trigger you can move the safety back and forward again and you can fire the second barrel.

Doesn't work with a Beretta.

Matt.

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4seventy
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: DarylS]
      #338981 - 12/03/20 03:23 PM

Yep, just flick the safety on and off and fire the second barrel!

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twobobbwana
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: 4seventy]
      #339004 - 13/03/20 11:42 AM

Daryl,

you are correct that firing a inertia triggered double that has misfired on the first barrel can be achieved by giving it a smack on the butt - either with your hand or by bumping it on the ground. Be careful it's loaded - but this may be inconvenient in a charge.

Matt & 4seventy,

I forgot about the trick with the safety. You're doing more than flicking the safety back and forward you're actually bringing the safety to the rear and pushing it forward and to the right on a Browning (or double with a single selective trigger on it - some aren't selective) if I recall correctly.

Once again inconvenient in a charge but I think it would be quite "do able" if you had the presence of mind at the time.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: twobobbwana]
      #339006 - 13/03/20 12:34 PM

All you have to do is move the safety forward and back, you don't have to move the barrel selector across.

Matt.

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Vette447
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #339243 - 21/03/20 03:26 PM

Just got these two rifles in. The pics in the auction don't do either justice. They are super nice!

I have spent some time with the Westley and some snap caps and can report the Westley single trigger mechanism is very slick and totally mechanical. It does not need recoil to move to the next barrel so I can see where it could be of good use even in dangerous hunting situations.


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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: Vette447]
      #339253 - 22/03/20 04:51 AM

Matt, 1st thought was that using the safety, that would just select the misfiring barrel again.
If the fault was that the primer failed to "manifest the charge", then all would be well, however
if the lock failed to fire at all, then moving the safety fore and aft would simply re-select the
'bad' lock, would it not?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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eagle27
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: DarylS]
      #339254 - 22/03/20 07:27 AM

Quote:

Matt, 1st thought was that using the safety, that would just select the misfiring barrel again.
If the fault was that the primer failed to "manifest the charge", then all would be well, however
if the lock failed to fire at all, then moving the safety fore and aft would simply re-select the
'bad' lock, would it not?




I have a Miroku O/U shotgun, single inertia set trigger with safety also serving as a barrel selector. Firing it with snap caps, pushing the safety directly on and off again after 'firing' the first barrel does allow the second barrel to fire i.e. in the case of a misfire the second barrel can be fired with a quick flick of the safety, the barrel selector doesn't have to be changed. If this system was on a double rifle then then it would only be a fraction of a second to bring the second barrel into play.

Apart from all this I imagine that even with second triggers or mechanical set triggers, the shock of having a misfire either through a faulty cartridge or mechanical failure of the lock or trigger mechanism would take some time for the shooter to digest and to overcome and get the second shot away 'effectively'. I say effectively because in many cases a second attempt after a failure is most likely going to be rushed and not as effective as it should be.

The reality today is that hunters in Africa are backed up by competent professional hunters, a charge is relatively rare, the majority of hunters use bolt guns anyway and there are not droves of them arriving home in body bags. The day of the lone white hunter shooting hundreds of dangerous animals relying on his own ability and guns to keep him safe are long gone and many of those hunters used nothing but bolt guns.

Those who think they need a double trigger double rifle to keep them safe in Africa are dreaming but there is nothing wrong with the dream and nostalgia to hunt with fine doubles just as many of us enjoy the dream and nostalgia of using fine Mauser rifles and cartridges from bygone eras. They are however just fulfilling a dream of a bygone era.

If I were having a double rifle made I would specify a single trigger and be perfectly happy with an inertia set trigger exactly as the same as the superb single trigger and lock on my Miroku. if buying a double I would be only be concerned about fit and performance not what trigger it had.


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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: eagle27]
      #339256 - 22/03/20 08:10 AM

Interesting take on the controversy, eagle27.
I've had several double guns with inertia activated single triggers. Never had a problem with misfires in them or with bolt guns.
If so, simply moving the selector to the other trigger would change it. No need to work the safety.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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4seventy
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: DarylS]
      #339264 - 22/03/20 11:17 AM

Quote:


If so, simply moving the selector to the other trigger would change it. No need to work the safety.




Pretty sure some inertia trigger guns will need to have the safety ON Safe before the barrel selector can be shifted to the other barrel.
This would mean move safety catch to safe, try and remember which way to move barrel selector, move barrel selector, push safety to fire, then pull trigger for second shot.

Far easier to just flick safety on-off-shoot!


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4seventy
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: twobobbwana]
      #339265 - 22/03/20 11:22 AM

Quote:

Daryl,



Matt & 4seventy,

I forgot about the trick with the safety. You're doing more than flicking the safety back and forward you're actually bringing the safety to the rear and pushing it forward and to the right on a Browning (or double with a single selective trigger on it - some aren't selective) if I recall correctly.

Once again inconvenient in a charge but I think it would be quite "do able" if you had the presence of mind at the time.




No, the barrel selector is not being moved at all.
Flick safety on safety off shoot. It's that easy.


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eagle27
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: 4seventy]
      #339267 - 22/03/20 01:20 PM

I haven't ever bothered looking at other single inertia trigger guns but probably selector or non-selectors are both designed to just need the safety worked back (on) and forward (off) again to activate the second barrel, forget trying to change the selector over, no need to.

4seventy sums up my take on either double triggers or single triggers on doubles, or bolt actions for that matter, you will need to have the 'presence of mind' to fire your second barrel or reload after a misfire. I have had the odd misfire when using the old SMLE 303 rifles and seen a few others the same and it does sort of throw you a bit when you do have a misfire.

I don't think double trigger users would necessarily have any advantage over single trigger users where hunting any game and have a misfire, presence of mind is going come into play for your brain to accept you've had a misfire and then change to the second trigger or work your safety quickly to get the second shot off. Either one under those circumstances is quite different than getting your first shot away then following with the second under normal circumstances without misfires.
Most of us can fire two shots in very quick succession if we so wish with our brain wired to rapidly pull one trigger twice or slip to the rear for the second trigger.

Interesting how many bolt gun users fire a shot and then hesitate and watch before reloading for a second, they expect the animal to drop with the first and then get flustered if it doesn't and are slow to react for a reload and get another shot away.

Edited by eagle27 (22/03/20 01:22 PM)


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twobobbwana
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: eagle27]
      #339292 - 23/03/20 11:54 AM

eagle27

I believe that with a mechanical single trigger you'll get click bang with two pulls of the trigger.............supposing your second barrel doesn't missfire as well.

With an inertia activated trigger it'll be click, move safety/barrel selector to select second barrel, bang.............same discaimer.

If you don't train in this manoeuvre you won't think of this in moments of stress - presence of mind.

"Train how you are going to Fight" Training will make the movement instinctive. No training....no backup plan! IPSC shooters practice jam clearing and mag changes until it is instinctive. Armed forces do the same thing with their weapons.

What alarms me about people using bolt guns is the number who cannot reload from the shoulder. They have to dismount the rifle to work the bolt and then remount the rifle to fire it. That is not conducive to a fast followup shot. Certainly not conducive to a follow through on your shot.........possibly resulting in flinching or dismounting the gun before you've finished the shot.

You see it in the movies with people who dismount a lever action between shots.

It's all an indicator of poor training and no consideration for what to do if things go wrong with the first shot and a fast second is required.

With our bolt actions we need to train to shoot, work the bolt from the shoulder, and continue to fire good shots. Even to drop an emergency round onto the magazine follower and close the bolt .......preferably without dismounting the gun.

With doubles you need to be able to shoot, get rid of the empties and reload with minimum disruption of your gun mount. Watch some of the better Cowboy Action (SASS) shooters shoot and reload a double barrel shotgun.

Remember Free advice is usually worth what you gave for it.


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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: twobobbwana]
      #339304 - 23/03/20 05:11 PM

I am guilty of dropping the rifle from my shoulder and just looking. I've never had to do other than that as most of my big game (moose bears and elk) have been one-shot drops with the .458 and with the 7x57 using 140 Noslers at 2,940fps and 175gr. RN's at 2,500fps. Those were deer. With the elk, one was one-shot drop, while the other needed several while running, shooting the M94 in .45 Colt. It stayed on my shoulder. The 7x57load with 140gr. deer ran, but not far and since I was shooting a Ruger #1, I had no opportunity for a second shot in the bush anyway.
The .69 cal. ML always drops them, whatever they are, but that one has to dismount to load regardless.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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WildCattle
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: DarylS]
      #381006 - 07/12/23 01:27 PM

It's an old thread, but I confirm that the WR double rifle one trigger system works without any recoil or safety action.
Two pulls = 2 hammer drops.
WC-

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: WildCattle]
      #381009 - 07/12/23 06:11 PM

Single trigger on a double rifle?

IMO totally unsuitable. Simple as that.

Rifle single trigger users too hopeless to learn how to shoot double triggers.

How could one use a cape gun, combination gun, twin calibre double rifle, type guns? Use some stupid barrel selector.

For shotguns, choose which choke to shoot first?

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John aka NitroX

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herrdoktor
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: NitroX]
      #381146 - 12/12/23 04:59 AM

Perhaps not unsuitable for everyone. James Sutherland (1300 bull elephants) used a single trigger 577 Westley Richards more than twenty years.

https://www.westleyrichards.com/theexplora/sutherlands-577/

In Spain we say "para los gustos, se hicieron los colores" ("for different tastes exist different colours")

Best regards!

Edited by herrdoktor (12/12/23 04:59 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: herrdoktor]
      #381147 - 12/12/23 05:11 AM

Been shooting 2 triggers on O/U's and SxS shotguns since I was 16 years old. Comes naturally whenever one of those is in my hands, same as a single trigger O/U. NP - ever and no confusion, either. What's to confuse? It's either got one trigger or 2?

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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grandveneur
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: DarylS]
      #381152 - 12/12/23 05:37 AM

I don't like that kind of thing either, I would prefer to own a sidelock DR with two triggers. Unfortunately such rifles are very expensive.

Hemingway's DR caliber 577 Nitro Express was also just a single trigger rifle and he was not the only one.

https://www.westleyrichards.com/theexplora/three-famous-westley-richards-577s/


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3DogMike
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: grandveneur]
      #381176 - 13/12/23 06:08 AM

Interesting positions from people as to double or single trigger preference.
I started as a boy with an inexpensive Savage SxS 20 ga with double triggers and of course a .22 rifle with one trigger. My Dad’s Browning Superposed was one trigger……
As I got into double rifles they were typically SxS with two triggers aside from a brief time with a single trigger Browning Express in 9.3x74.
These days my only single trigger double is a SxS Sabatti in 9.3x74

I have never had issue with using one or the other. But that’s just me. Reliability of the single trigger DR? Never an issue.
Of all makers I would guess that Westley Richards has the system down pat.
- Mike

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grandveneur
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #381178 - 13/12/23 06:24 AM

My main concern is safety when hunting big game. From experience, how complicated the mechanisms are and the more failures can occur.

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3DogMike
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Re: Westley Richards Single Select Trigger - Big Bore Rifles? [Re: grandveneur]
      #381189 - 13/12/23 01:03 PM

Quote:

My main concern is safety when hunting big game. From experience, how complicated the mechanisms are and the more failures can occur.



I agree 100% and do prefer a double rifle with 2 triggers.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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