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ChrisB
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450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne
      #328664 - 22/05/19 12:29 PM

Someone please school me on the difference please. I understand from reading that the 450/400 3" is also the .400 Jeffery ne.

Thanks


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Wayne59
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: ChrisB]
      #328667 - 22/05/19 12:50 PM

I think what your looking for is the 400 Jeffery's is the equivalent of the 450/400/3" without a rim. the 450/400/3" is a rimmed cartridge.

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Huvius
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: ChrisB]
      #328668 - 22/05/19 01:01 PM

You are correct.
The 450NE (also known as the 450 3-1/4" Nitro Express) is generally accepted as the first dangerous game nitro cartridge.
It was a development of the John Rigby firm as a nitro version of the popular 450 3-1/4" black powder express cartridge.
They are the same case but the nitro version is strengthened at the base, or web.
The 450bpe had a little brother, the 450/400 3-1/4"BPE which was a 450 necked down to .400.

You can imagine the danger in producing new high power nitro express ammunition that fits perfectly into the chambers of existing black powder proved, lightweight rifles so W.J. Jeffery came up with the 450/400 3" cartridge.
This cartridge has a much thicker rim so chambering it in existing 450/400BPE would be largely impossible. That was a built in safety margin but it is also more efficient as a full nitro cartridge as the neck on the 3-1/4" version is unnecessarily long for a nitro cartridge.
Both nitro versions (3" Jeffery and 3-1/4") ended up being offered with very much the same loading and performance.

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Huvius
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: Wayne59]
      #328669 - 22/05/19 01:09 PM

Quote:

I think what your looking for is the 400 Jeffery's is the equivalent of the 450/400/3" without a rim. the 450/400/3" is a rimmed cartridge.




Sort of.
They use different diameter bullets - .408-.410 for the 450/400 3", and .423" for the 404 Jeffery Rimless.
The 404 was developed as a comparable rimless version of the well proven 450/400 3" for use in bolt action rifles.
I don't know why the 404 was designed with a .423" bullet but I suspect that it was actually developed in Germany and swiftly adopted by Jeffery as their proprietary cartridge much the same as they did with the .500 Jeffery later on.

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wkudu
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: Huvius]
      #328670 - 22/05/19 02:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think what your looking for is the 400 Jeffery's is the equivalent of the 450/400/3" without a rim. the 450/400/3" is a rimmed cartridge.




Sort of.
They use different diameter bullets - .408-.410 for the 450/400 3", and .423" for the 404 Jeffery Rimless.
The 404 was developed as a comparable rimless version of the well proven 450/400 3" for use in bolt action rifles.
I don't know why the 404 was designed with a .423" bullet but I suspect that it was actually developed in Germany and swiftly adopted by Jeffery as their proprietary cartridge much the same as they did with the .500 Jeffery later on.





Correct. I think it also came from Shuler. Some german guns have the metric equivalent stamped instead of 404



OP-The 450/400 is the essentially the 450 NE 3 1/4 case neck to .408(the most common for 450/400 3 1/4) or .410(the most common for 450/400 3") Note that the 450/400 3" is also called the 400 Jeffery as they developed the modified case. The brits largely used a nomenclature where 450/400 reads 450NE necked to 400. The opposite of say 7mm-08 where we Americans use the new bore caliber before the parent case.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: ChrisB]
      #328673 - 22/05/19 04:22 PM

Quote:

450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne




The difference is similar to being hit with a sledgehammer or a heavy hand hammer ....

ie the title of the thread.

--------------------
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eagle27
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: Huvius]
      #328678 - 22/05/19 05:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think what your looking for is the 400 Jeffery's is the equivalent of the 450/400/3" without a rim. the 450/400/3" is a rimmed cartridge.




Sort of.
They use different diameter bullets - .408-.410 for the 450/400 3", and .423" for the 404 Jeffery Rimless.
The 404 was developed as a comparable rimless version of the well proven 450/400 3" for use in bolt action rifles.
I don't know why the 404 was designed with a .423" bullet but I suspect that it was actually developed in Germany and swiftly adopted by Jeffery as their proprietary cartridge much the same as they did with the .500 Jeffery later on.




The information below is from from research undertaken by Casey Lewis & Alf Smith who wrote 404 Jeffery - The Full Monty published in Big Bore Journal No. 21.
Although Jeffery consulted Krupp in regards barrel specifications, it seems the cartridge and bullet design was an all England initiative.


"Jeffery did not have access to magnum length Mauser actions and
had no choice but to use the standard Mauser action. In doing this
he could not use the 450/400-3" case turned into rimless as the degree
of opening up it needed would have affected action integrity too
much.
Jeffery had to design a shorter rimless cartridge by reducing the case
length of his popular .450/400x3" case from 3" 76.2mm to 73mm.
This still marginally reduced the safety margin, but was sufficiently
strong as long as the pressure was kept at the original specification of
17.2 tons per square inch (2,240 lbs to the ton). This considerable
reduction in the volume of the cartridge case would have resulted in
a drastic increase in pressure had they retained the .450/400x3" load
and kept the same diameter bullet as for the .450/400; namely the
.408".
Jeffery worked through Le Personne with Krupp regarding barrel
specifications as well as Eley and Kynoch who possessed the cartridge
design expertise, to duplicate combustion space by increasing the case
base diameter from 13.76mm/0.5417" to 13.843mm/0.545" and
the shoulder diameter of the .450/400x3" from 13.233mm/.521" to
13.462mm/.530". The rimIess version's bullet diameter was consequently
increased to .4225". The nett result of the modifications to
the .450/400x3" was the shorter, fatter, rimless cartridge we know as
the .404 Jeffery and which used the weight of bullet and propellant
as its rimmed predecessor."


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: eagle27]
      #328679 - 22/05/19 05:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think what your looking for is the 400 Jeffery's is the equivalent of the 450/400/3" without a rim. the 450/400/3" is a rimmed cartridge.




Sort of.
They use different diameter bullets - .408-.410 for the 450/400 3", and .423" for the 404 Jeffery Rimless.
The 404 was developed as a comparable rimless version of the well proven 450/400 3" for use in bolt action rifles.
I don't know why the 404 was designed with a .423" bullet but I suspect that it was actually developed in Germany and swiftly adopted by Jeffery as their proprietary cartridge much the same as they did with the .500 Jeffery later on.




The information below is from from research undertaken by Casey Lewis & Alf Smith who wrote 404 Jeffery - The Full Monty published in Big Bore Journal No. 21.
Although Jeffery consulted Krupp in regards barrel specifications, it seems the cartridge and bullet design was an all England initiative.


"Jeffery did not have access to magnum length Mauser actions and
had no choice but to use the standard Mauser action. In doing this
he could not use the 450/400-3" case turned into rimless as the degree
of opening up it needed would have affected action integrity too
much.
Jeffery had to design a shorter rimless cartridge by reducing the case
length of his popular .450/400x3" case from 3" 76.2mm to 73mm.
This still marginally reduced the safety margin, but was sufficiently
strong as long as the pressure was kept at the original specification of
17.2 tons per square inch (2,240 lbs to the ton). This considerable
reduction in the volume of the cartridge case would have resulted in
a drastic increase in pressure had they retained the .450/400x3" load
and kept the same diameter bullet as for the .450/400; namely the
.408".
Jeffery worked through Le Personne with Krupp regarding barrel
specifications as well as Eley and Kynoch who possessed the cartridge
design expertise, to duplicate combustion space by increasing the case
base diameter from 13.76mm/0.5417" to 13.843mm/0.545" and
the shoulder diameter of the .450/400x3" from 13.233mm/.521" to
13.462mm/.530". The rimIess version's bullet diameter was consequently
increased to .4225". The nett result of the modifications to
the .450/400x3" was the shorter, fatter, rimless cartridge we know as
the .404 Jeffery and which used the weight of bullet and propellant
as its rimmed predecessor."




Correct me if I am wrong, but they "invented" something almost the same as the earlier 10.75x73 .... ?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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kuduae
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: NitroX]
      #328684 - 22/05/19 08:00 PM

Quote:

Correct. I think it also came from Shuler. Some german guns have the metric equivalent stamped instead of 404



Quote:

I don't know why the 404 was designed with a .423" bullet but I suspect that it was actually developed in Germany and swiftly adopted by Jeffery as their proprietary cartridge much the same as they did with the .500 Jeffery later on.



At the Kassel gunshow a year or so ago I was shown an apparently very early .404 Jeffery rifle on a standard length M98 Mauser action. That peculiar rifle had a Suhl type, half octagonal,full ribbed barrel. The stock is somewhat British style, with horn foreend tip, but with some Suhl details too. It has "German" side panels and a key through the foreend.
On the outside it shows London proofmarks. The rib is inscribed " W.J.Jeffery & Co., 13 King Street, London". So it was obviously made for and retailed by Jeffery.
On taking it apart we found a typical Schüler magazine extension screwed to the underside of the receiver. The underside of the barrel shows pre-1912 Suhl proofmarks and the inscription "A.Schüler, Suhl".
So at least one early .404 rifle was built for Jeffery by Schüler in Suhl, Germany.


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ChrisB
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: kuduae]
      #328698 - 23/05/19 12:35 AM

Thanks for the discussion guys.

So.. it seems to me like the 450 NE is a more powerful cartridge than the 450/400 3"

I'm looking at 2 guns by 2 different sellers, one being advertised as the 450ne, and the other the 450/400 3"

Is one 'better' than the other from a shooting or finding ammo point of view.

For reference, in high power cartridges, I have bolt guns in 416 rigby and 458 lott. ( 375 H&H in a single ), and 9.3x74R and 470 NE in doubles.

Thanks for the discussion and information, please continue educating me.


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Huvius
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: ChrisB]
      #328699 - 23/05/19 12:49 AM

450 is more powerful
Either will kill anything on Earth though.
Both are easy to find ammo for

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3DogMike
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: Huvius]
      #328700 - 23/05/19 12:59 AM

".......So.. it seems to me like the 450 NE is a more powerful cartridge than the 450/400 3"...."
As Sherlock Holmes said: Elementary my dear Watson.....bigger heavier bullet at roughly same velocity = more energy. You can read the numbers right off the ammo boxes.

Just curious; if you already have and are familiar with .416 Rigby, .458 Lott, .375 H&H, 9.3x74, and a .470 (is the .470 more powerful than the 9,3x74? ) you could use the internet, Google Search, Taylor Knock Out values, and/or Wikipedia to learn the details of .450 NE versus .450/.400 3".

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
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ChrisB
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: 3DogMike]
      #328749 - 24/05/19 12:04 AM

I just figured asking at a specific double rifle forum might be better than hitting up a wikipedia article I might find.

Sorry I bothered you.


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Postman
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: ChrisB]
      #328752 - 24/05/19 01:19 AM

There is no “bothering” people here on this forum. Asking questions will generally yield some good advice, discussions, and different points of view.

I have owned firearms in both calibers and I hands down prefer the .450 NE. I can’t say one is more available than the other but for a handloader, .458” bullets are far more common and available in many different weights and configurations.

Recoil should generally be expected to be somewhat heavier with the 450 NE, but when I think back to my Ruger #1 in 450-400, I am REALLY glad I sold that nasty kick the shit out of you rifle. I find all the bigger rifles will have stiff recoil but rifle weight, design, and ultimately “fit” will dictate how well you can tolerate the recoil.

For me, my upper limit in recoil tolerance is decidedly the .500 NE. Hunting with it, I dont notice the recoil, but range sessions tend to be very limited. I find the 450 tolerable and similar to the Lott.

Edited by Postman (24/05/19 01:22 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: ChrisB]
      #328753 - 24/05/19 01:20 AM

Ahhh- typing at the same time as Postman, eh! He's right- differing opinions will show up in a discussion. Otherwise, there is no 'life' to the subject.

While both are very nice, powerful calibres, after shooting Curly's .450/400 with lighter paper patched bullets & smokeless powder in his Farquarson, I'd likely gravitate to the .450/400 instead of the .450 NE. I've had numerous .450's, .458's and never a .400. THAT's what I would do.
Seems to me, they both use the same basic brass, so brass is not a deciding factor - for me.

A further observation, is both of these ctgs. can use cast bullets in full power loads. In my 'bunch' of 84 sets of mould blocks, many of them are .458's, however, I do feel the need to have some .40's - another argument for the .450/400! YES!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ChrisB
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: Postman]
      #328755 - 24/05/19 01:41 AM

I'm really leaning towards the 450ne. I already reload for 45-70 .458 winmag, and .458 Lott, so have plenty of different weight .458 projectiles on hand, plus I cast .458 in a few weights, including gas checking for higher velocities.

Does anyone here shoot .458 Lott ( or winmag ), and .450ne, or .450ne and .470ne and would like to compare or contrast them?


Thanks.


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ChrisB
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: DarylS]
      #328757 - 24/05/19 01:44 AM

Being able to do .458, and cast full power loads sounds great to me.

I play around with hard alloys and gas checking to see what I can get on my other .458's.

Thanks for the info.


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Postman
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: ChrisB]
      #328764 - 24/05/19 05:54 AM

I have both .450 NE and .458 Lott. The Lott shoots with somewhat higher velocities. I use .450 grain mono metals in the Lott given the much shorter case and my desire to keep loads somewhat conservative compels me to avoid hotrodding it. My 450 NE is a SxS double and I am limited by the speed /loads that regulate well in it. I have found the 480 grain Woodleighs work spectacularly well in this cartridge and rifle combo.

Daryl is absolutely right..... There is no wrong answer. But there is a lot of room to play and experiment!!!


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DarylS
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: Postman]
      #328770 - 24/05/19 08:33 AM

I was shooting a .458 Alaskan for a while - 97gr. capacity, bit higher than the .458 Winney. In the post 64 Model 70 Winchester easily ran 2,200fps with 500gr. Hornadys but the recoil was too much for my much damaged shoulder cartilage, so I set the barrel back and re-chambered it for the .458 2", with which I damaged my shoulder in the first place. LOL
My buddy Keith needed it more than I did, so he bought it from me.

Unless you are driving the Lott at top speeds with an EXPANDING mono-metal bullet you would likely see ZERO difference in those ctgs. listed, on game- perhaps, just perhaps, an advantage or equality with the .470 - maybe.

This is just a wild-assed guess while I am drinking sprite with Isl. of Islay Gin & snacking on herring roll-mops. Yummy!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Postman
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: DarylS]
      #328772 - 24/05/19 10:40 AM

Mmmmmmmm. Roll Mops!!!!!!

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3DogMike
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: DarylS]
      #328773 - 24/05/19 11:00 AM

Quote:

.......... drinking sprite with Isl. of Islay Gin & snacking on herring roll-mops. Yummy!




.....only 2 things smell like herring, and one of them is herring

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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Aaron_Little
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: 3DogMike]
      #329353 - 14/06/19 01:46 AM

I’ve shot plenty of rifles in both calibers and prefer the overall feel, handling, and weight of a properly scaled 9.25lb 450/400 vs a 10.25lb .450ne. I find it to be a more manageable package overall to shoot and control.

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rigbymauser
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: Aaron_Little]
      #329361 - 14/06/19 05:09 AM


I must say I am rather pleased with a .450Nitro. I can shoot 300grain pills @ 2100 ft/sec for larger game like stags, kudus, pigs etc and it still regulate well. Using 480grain solids it can kill the biggest. Its a caliber I can use when I get older recoilwise and the gun weighs 10,5 Ibs. Investmentwise I would advice a first timer to get a good nice .450Nitro. It will over the long time bring most joy.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: ChrisB]
      #329374 - 14/06/19 06:36 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the discussion guys.

So.. it seems to me like the 450 NE is a more powerful cartridge than the 450/400 3"

I'm looking at 2 guns by 2 different sellers, one being advertised as the 450ne, and the other the 450/400 3"

Is one 'better' than the other from a shooting or finding ammo point of view.

For reference, in high power cartridges, I have bolt guns in 416 rigby and 458 lott. ( 375 H&H in a single ), and 9.3x74R and 470 NE in doubles.

Thanks for the discussion and information, please continue educating me.




I have a .450 NE. I don't have a .400 NE but have shot one.

They aren't equivalent chamberings at all. But can do similar jobs.

The .400 is around about the ideal buffalo and bovine calibre. Can be used for plains game. Can be used for elephant. Often in a somewhat lighter double rifles. Usually shoots a 400 gr or 410 gr porjectile. Calibre might vary in the ranges of .408 to .411 or even .413. In that neighbourhood. Usually shoots the 400 gr at about 2100 fps. An effective and nie milder choice for a big game rifle. Lesser powered than a .416 Rigby at least for velocity.

The .450 NE is the original ".470". The .470 came about after colonial bans of "military" calibres such as .450. Same sort of power and use. 480 gr projectile at around 2100 fps. Great choice for dangerous and big game. The start to the stopper range in my opinion. Good for buffalo and for elephant. Somewhat heavier rifles than the .400 range.

In my opinion the .450 NE in a double rifle is the epitome of the double rifle legend.

If I had a .470 I would lean to a .400 dr, unless the .450 NE dr was special for some reason. Or get rid of the .470 and buy both the .450 and .400.

Personally I could see a place in my safe for both a Jeffery .450 and a Jeffery .400.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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ChrisB
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Re: 450 ne vs 450/400 3" ne [Re: NitroX]
      #329535 - 21/06/19 10:26 AM

Forgot to post back, thanks for the info.

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