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mauserand9mm
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Loc: Queensland, Australia
Merkel doubling - fixed?
      #328125 - 08/05/19 01:05 PM

My Merkel 140A 500NE rifle will double if you pull the rear trigger first - it's always done this but luckily I've always pulled the front trigger first. I actually discovered this when firing single shots out of each barrel in turn - the cocking indicators and firing of the ejectors provided evidence that both barrels have "fired" if you've only loaded and shot out of the LH barrel.

From various forums it appears that the larger calibre Merkel doubles (not sure of the models affected) such as 470NE and 500NE may do this, not all but not that uncommon either. Has anyone had this happen to them and have they managed to get Merkel to fix (and admit fault)? Would be very interested in replies from any other aussies in particular.

[Mine will do this with 570gn loads when shooting offhand, but not with the lighter 450gn loads. I also found out the other day that it will do it with my 430gn cast loads (light) when shooting off a bench.]

Edited by mauserand9mm (08/05/19 01:22 PM)


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Postman
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #328135 - 08/05/19 09:19 PM

Yes, some Merkels circa early 2000’s will double when firing the rear barrel first. Mine does. It is a 140AE in 9.3x74R. From what I’ve found researching the Internet, there is an internal design fault which can be repaired. I never bothered, but I also don’t use mine for DG hunting where I might select one barrel over another, ie, pick a solid over a soft. In Canada, it is EXTREMELY difficult to have any manufacturer work done because warrantee centres are all but non existent (and pretty useless and slow when they do exist), so most warrantee work involves shipping cross border/international, with all manner of hassles, and permits required.

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Ripp
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: Postman]
      #328136 - 08/05/19 09:42 PM

Had never heard that before on Merkel's... if it were me I'd get it fixed..especially on a 470 or 500NE

Had a 10 gauge shotgun that did that.. but when the front trigger was pulled.. was quite a surprise the first time it did that.. got that one fixed as well.. was fairly inexpensive to do so at the time..

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Postman
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: Ripp]
      #328145 - 08/05/19 11:53 PM

Yes, it is probably something I should look at getting fixed. It’s one of those things one knows one needs to do, but puts off for another day, kinda like cutting the grass on a really hot day when a buddy drops by with cold beer.

I’d also like to get the silly auto safety disabled on it. I HATE that worse than having to always fire the right barrel first in sequence.

This rifle is regulated extremely well and will consistently print both shots touching side by side at 50 yards. I can forgive it’s few shortcomings a great deal given how well it shoots.


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mauserand9mm
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: Postman]
      #328161 - 09/05/19 08:17 AM

I just had joy on this topic in another forum (24hrcampfire) and apparently Merkel do recognise the problem and have replacement sears and interrupters (?), and there is a guy from the importers in the US who can make the replacement. Trouble is I'm in Australia but I'll go back to our importers now with the "extra ammo" and see if they can come to the party.

I'm suprised that the 9.3x74R would double, must be a really sentitive front trigger. The 500NE fortunately doesn't have the auto safety - not a good idea for an auto safety on a dangerous game cartridge.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #328164 - 09/05/19 09:15 AM

You will need plenty of luck and patience as the importer for Merkel here in Australia is "Herron Sport and Security" which used to be fantastic while Mr. Herron was still alive and ran the business but since he died and the Chinese wife took over, sacked all the staff who new something and employed her Chinese inlaws who are actually retarded, the place has turned to shit. Impossible to deal with and super rude and arrogant. They will never call you back, period, and if it all looks to hard then they suddenly don't understand English.

I wish you luck but you will have to persist.


Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Postman
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #328165 - 09/05/19 09:27 AM

Quote:

I just had joy on this topic in another forum (24hrcampfire) and apparently Merkel do recognise the problem and have replacement sears and interrupters (?), and there is a guy from the importers in the US who can make the replacement. Trouble is I'm in Australia but I'll go back to our importers now with the "extra ammo" and see if they can come to the party.

I'm suprised that the 9.3x74R would double, must be a really sentitive front trigger. The 500NE fortunately doesn't have the auto safety - not a good idea for an auto safety on a dangerous game cartridge.




The front set trigger on the 9.3x74R when “Set” probably has a pull weight of an ounce or less. It bas a decent hunting pull weight when not “Set”.... The rifle shoots fine so long as one fires right barrel then left barrel in that order, whether you elect to set the front trigger or not. I’ve gone and pulled it out of the safe and report back here with the build date proofs = “BAC”.... 1, 0, 2.... So, January, 2002.... Nice little rifle. Side clips, cocking indicators, tastefully engraved, stag game scene on left, wild boar scene on right.

I also had a 140AE in .470 that doubled at least twice on me during the two years I owned it, although the recoil was so impressive, I can’t recall the details of what exactly happened.

Edited by Postman (09/05/19 09:50 AM)


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450_Ackley
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #328175 - 09/05/19 04:58 PM

Quote:

You will need plenty of luck and patience as the importer for Merkel here in Australia is "Herron Sport and Security" which used to be fantastic while Mr. Herron was still alive and ran the business but since he died and the Chinese wife took over, sacked all the staff who new something and employed her Chinese inlaws who are actually retarded, the place has turned to shit. Impossible to deal with and super rude and arrogant. They will never call you back, period, and if it all looks to hard then they suddenly don't understand English.

I wish you luck but you will have to persist.


Matt.




Exactly, Exactly, Exactly Matt. A mate and I have had nothing but trouble with them too, my mate got so frustrated he went direct to Merkel in Germany and got the run around with them too. Seems like Merkel don't want to know about warranty issues in Australia. And their warranty "Gunsmith" in Australia is a joke as well.

DC


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mauserand9mm
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #328177 - 09/05/19 06:41 PM

I had initially contacted Merkel Germany too several years ago when I first found th problem and they also directed me back to Herrons. I can't remember the name of the gunsmith they referred me to but I did speak to him and I thought he sounded somewhat knowledgable but I didn't send the rifle to him because of the cost that he wanted for repairs. I decided to live with firing the right side barrel first, and I came up with a fix for the loose weight in the buttstock - another problem with the 470 and 500 shearing the mounting screw.

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DarylS
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #328186 - 10/05/19 02:52 AM

According to Greener's book(The Gun etc.), the left trigger's sear engagement is made stronger than the front trigger's sear engagement to prevent the left barrel from firing when the front trigger is pulled.

The front (right) trigger is supposed to be the first one fired, according to Greener and thus has a "lighter" trigger pull than the rear trigger, for accuracy reasons.

Stands to reason, that with extra recoil of heavy loads, that if firing the left b. first, it may double, but not of firing the right barrel first.

Just going on memory here, which has not proved to be infallible, lately.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mauserand9mm
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: DarylS]
      #328199 - 10/05/19 08:08 AM

And that's the crux of the problem - a "design feature" is actually a "design fault". Irrespective of which trigger is pulled first (either deliberately or accidentally) a double rifle shouldn't double discharge for the pull of a single trigger.

I've seen a copy of a Merkel operators manual and it states firing the front trigger first and within 16 seconds firing the rear to ensure proper regulation of the shots. It doesn't mention risk of double discharge if the wrong firing sequence is made - to ignore mention of this fact is negligent. I don't know if any subsequent manuals were revised accordingly but then doing so would just highlight a known design fault and negligence anyway. I understand that the more recent Merkels do have additional precautions to prevent doubling from happening (separate interceptor on each trigger mechanism?).


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Postman
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #328203 - 10/05/19 10:19 AM

I firmly believe its a design fault. Merkel is a kind of an odd company or at least their products strike me as a bit of an enigma.

In Germany I understand they are relatively low cost doubles, but for the rest of the world, they are pretty damned pricey. The small bore doubles crowd $6.5k in CDN $ and the big bore Safari rifles are on the order of $10k CDN. Cheaper by maybe 10 - 20% compared to a Chapuis, and cheaper even more so than a Verney Carron. Less than half price of a Heym.

In my humble estimation, what one gets for their money is a rifle that is nicely fitted and finished, at least externally. The wood, albeit somewhat plain grained, is of good sturdy quality and the wood to metal joins are well done, even considering their international prices. The screws are beautifully timed, and the engraving is nicely and tastefully executed if somewhat shallow. They are short and handy. Fast handling and well balanced.

Function is generally quite good, save for the trigger sear issue that would appear prevalent in the first decade of the current century.

Now for the internals: I’ve not opened mine all the way up so I cannot comment on how well finished the internal parts are. I have had the plastic butt plate off and the wood is properly sealed, and the butt plate is serial number matched to the rifle.

The bore scope tells not such a pretty story... The chambers on all three I’ve had looked like someone invented a miniature tractor and used it to pull one of those field tilling disc thingies (my apologies to farmers - I am farm equipment illiterate) hither and yon around the chamber neck area and into the start of the lands. I did not have the bore scope when I owned my drilling so I can’t comment on it’s state of bore finish. Surprisingly enough, even with the ham fisted piss poor chamber cutting work, the rifles shoot very accurately. The 9.3x74R is also regulated right along with the best I’ve ever seen. The .470 was regulated ok and The 141A I had was adjustable as the factory claimed, although I did struggle to get those barrels to shoot together.

So, you get what you pay for.... I think it’s a lower cost, reasonable value for the money double rifle. For those that can’t swing a new Holland & Holland, myself definitely included, the Merkel provides a way in to the world of doubles with a reasonably well made rifle. BUT, it may have a few warts not present in a higher quality, higher priced rifle.


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450_Ackley
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: Postman]
      #328204 - 10/05/19 10:26 AM

I've got a Merkel in 450/400 3" and while fairly plain, it regulates exceptionally well, and the bores when looked at with a borescope are two of the smoothest I've ever looked at, so much so, they may well be a bit too smooth, as it copper fouls quite badly. I'm currently trying HBN coated projectiles to see if I can alleviate some of the fouling issues.

DC


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Postman
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #328207 - 10/05/19 11:12 AM

I’d think that if it shoots well, just shoot it and don’t mess with it. Copper fouling is easy enough to remove with chamber plugs and a 3 day soaking with Butches’ bore shine copper solvent.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #328211 - 10/05/19 01:35 PM

Quote:

I've got a Merkel in 450/400 3" and while fairly plain, it regulates exceptionally well, and the bores when looked at with a borescope are two of the smoothest I've ever looked at, so much so, they may well be a bit too smooth, as it copper fouls quite badly. I'm currently trying HBN coated projectiles to see if I can alleviate some of the fouling issues.

DC




(I'm highjacking my own thead now) All my big bores (375H&H, 458WM and 500NE) copper foul badly to the point of calling it copper plating of the bores. I'm using only Woodleighs in the 458 and 500 and haven't used anything else - there anything about them that makes them more likely to foul?


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DarylS
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #328216 - 10/05/19 03:54 PM

Is Woodleigh not using guilding metal for jackets?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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450_Ackley
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #328219 - 10/05/19 04:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I've got a Merkel in 450/400 3" and while fairly plain, it regulates exceptionally well, and the bores when looked at with a borescope are two of the smoothest I've ever looked at, so much so, they may well be a bit too smooth, as it copper fouls quite badly. I'm currently trying HBN coated projectiles to see if I can alleviate some of the fouling issues.

DC




(I'm highjacking my own thead now) All my big bores (375H&H, 458WM and 500NE) copper foul badly to the point of calling it copper plating of the bores. I'm using only Woodleighs in the 458 and 500 and haven't used anything else - there anything about them that makes them more likely to foul?




Yes, I think so, Woodleighs in any and every cartridge I've ever used them in foul badly for some reason.
Not much option for us here in Oz though for .410" diameter.

DC


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mauserand9mm
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #328220 - 10/05/19 08:19 PM

Postman, you gave a very good description of the Merkels that I totally agree with, and I didn't realise that they were that much cheaper than the others in Europe.

In regards to the bore and chamber, mine certainly looks okay to the naked eye but it does appear like the steel has "water stains" in it (may be better ways to describe it) that you can see in the muzzle and end of the chamber where you can look almost straight on to it. It even looks a bit like lead fouling or flaking. It's been like this since I got it (secondhand). I thought maybe it might have had been some corrosion from neglect/abuse at some stage but it doesn't appear to be pitted at all. Weird, but shoots good.

In regards to the Woodleighs, they are pretty much the only option I have for 0.510". In 0.458 and 0.375 they are cheaper than the American stuff over here. I prefer Speers and Sierras for the 375 mainly because they make spitzers and boattails and also give better accuracy at the longer ranges - most of my shooting is just mucking around at the range. I'd use Woodleighs in the 375 for cost reasons when I used to shoot Big Game Rifle regularly.

Edited by mauserand9mm (10/05/19 08:20 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #328230 - 11/05/19 02:08 AM

Too bad about the foulers.
I have an old Oberndorf Mauser 9.3x62 that fouls badly with about anything, but shoots OK. The bore shows neglect & was severely coppered-up when I bought the rifle in about 81 or 82.
It just takes a long time to clean it. I have to use Butches Bore Shine or Sweets in it. Foam-Out works better (overnight soak) than anything, though. Wipe Out is no better than the other cleaners noted, for me. Some guys like it. I have not found the accelerator actually worked any better than just using the solution.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: DarylS]
      #328237 - 11/05/19 05:24 AM

I have heard stories as well about Woodleighs fouling however in any of my rifles I do not have any problems with fouling at all, with any brand of projectile for that matter. I very rarely use any copper solvent as I find that it alters the point of impact significantly until the bore has a thin layer a of copper back on it, at which point everything returns to normal. I keep an eye on things with a bore scope.

I use Bertram Bullets for shooting at the BGRC as they are well priced, cheaper than Woodleigh,don't foul and they are very accurate, at least for me. They are not finished as nicely as the Woodleigh's and they come packed 100 in a plastic bag but all I do is tumble them in the vibratory case tumbler for a couple of hours and they look good and load well.

I hunt with Woodleigh and shoot with Bertram, works well.


Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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BillG500
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #328253 - 11/05/19 07:14 PM

There’s an inertia type trigger lock system on these. There is a piece of .3mm piano spring wire in there which is soldered into the blade, which is where it breaks. First time you see it you can’t figure out where it is supposed to go. Pretty piss poor attempt for a spring using a piece of wire, but that’s Merkel for you. At a guess I’d say that is what has happened to yours.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Merkel doubling - fixed? [Re: BillG500]
      #328302 - 13/05/19 08:11 AM

The interceptor/block is okay and it's only on the rear trigger. The problem is doubling when the rear trigger is pulled first - there's no way doubling can be caused by the finger slipping onto the other tigger.

Edited by mauserand9mm (13/05/19 08:13 AM)


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