Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-???

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
Previous topic Previous   Search Results   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | >> (show all)
Butch_Searcy
.224 member


Reged: 28/03/04
Posts: 6
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #113997 - 09/09/08 07:19 AM

Mark,
Please tell use what modern day rifles you know for a fact that has come apart or had damage because of monometal bullets, for that matter I'd like that info from anyone here. I don't recommend them in any pre-war rifle. It has been my experience over the years that the only rifles that have come into my shop with blown or split barrels have been the pre-war rifles. The strength and quality of steel today compared to the old English steel is light years ahead. I had a Lancaster in the shop last year that was split length wise from the mid point to the muzzle, and the bullet used was a Woodleigh. The point I'm makeing is that no matter the quality of the older rifles the steel wasn't that good. And handloading for them should be done with exacting precision.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26535
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: Butch_Searcy]
      #114004 - 09/09/08 11:25 AM

I for one, cannot see why a barrel would split or solder joints come loose from shooting an undersized bullet that produces less pressure and obviously less hoop-stress than a normal jacketed bullet.

Were the barrels that were damaged actually undersize in groove diameter, thus increasing pressure and hoop stress? It is the hoop-stress that caused barrels to expand in diameter as the bullet passes?

I am merely talking about physics and commmon sense. That the specifed damage has happened, I'll take knowledgable people's word on, but I'd just like to hear why or what exactly caused this problem.

Can the hoop-stress which needs be the cause of the splits in barrel and solder joints, be excessive in a bullet that doesn't even make it to the bottom of the grooves and where in fact, it is producing low overall pressure for the ctg. involved? This doesn't make sense. Wild statements to the contrary don't cut it. To my way of thinking, Barnes brought up the obturation deal to show their bullets aren't expanding from pressure and therefore aren't exerting the deeded stress on the barrel steel. That some people missed this is evident. It speaks of common sense. They bought up 'other' mono bullet construction of 'naval bronze' and ctg. brass which is much stronger and harder than ordinary brass, as a comparrison to show their bullets were and are 'softer' than the 'others', and not for any other reason. A non-obturating bullet produces less stress on about any barrel I'm familiar with. Why would a double produce different results with non-obturating bullets? That a Woodleigh is squeezed down by the bottoms of the grooves shows they are indeed oversize in bores that produce this result. An obturating bullet produces more stress on a barrel than one that doesn't. Again, common sense back by empirical evidence. One must use common horse sense along with ballistic knowledge here to find out what's happening when faced with glaring statements that have no 'data' attached. Questions such as these needs be answered, in my humble opinion, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: DarylS]
      #114008 - 09/09/08 12:32 PM

Barnes' marketing seems to be mostly B.S. hype IMO. As for the bullets being undersized, won't that cause gas blowby which will damage the barrel? And from what I have seen of Barnes quality control, I would not count on anything. I had some Barnes .585" solids that each had the cannelure in a different place. I had to reset my crimp for each individual bullet!

In the past Barnes has sold grooved bullets, which I would prefer not to use in a double. If they have indeed switched over to a driving band design (like www.gscustom.co.za), and I am NOT convinced they have, they are only about 15 years late getting on the wagon!

___

Butch, I examined and fired 20 rounds through a Chapuis 470 that was totally buggered. The owner said he had something like 105 rounds or 95 rounds through it from when it was new, and a bunch were brass monometals (not a driving band configuration). I am not a double expert, but it seemed like the action had been stretched. And the rounds were crossing at 20 yards. And the toplever stuck open. The gun looked fabulous but was was pretty well wanked. It was a $12K rifle new and he was willing to sell for $7500. No wonder it was a good deal. I suppose the owner could have been shooting overpressure loads through it, so perhaps that was the cause and not the bullets. ??

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #114019 - 09/09/08 01:36 PM

Thanks for your explanation, 400NE. Thought I answered it before but the post seems to have got lost.

This OSR (what to the inits stand for?) business makes me wonder what stresses monos might put on lightweight barrels on any kind of rifle.

- Paul

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26535
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: Paul]
      #114022 - 09/09/08 03:08 PM

500Nitro - I agree that many or most US business owners have BS in their advertizing, whether this is their idea or merely their advertizing people's unchecked ideas - not very many companies seem to be free of it really. I'm not sure any other country's businesses are any different for that matter. What I'm seeing here though, is some broad statements made against a company or companies that bear little or no support of evidence or that are merely supported by nonsensical arguments like some previous posts.
I was just wondering if there was actual proof that Barnes bullets did this or were they some other makers monolith bullets, or as 500 Nitro stated, perhaps loads in excess and the real cause is unknown? An easy out for an 'aggressive' handloader is to blame the bullets, rifle or both. If there is proof the bullets actually did this, then which ones were they? With proof, there is no slander, of course, a civil suit needs only 56% pro to get a conviction.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: Paul]
      #114023 - 09/09/08 03:25 PM

Quote:

This OSR (what to the inits stand for?)



Paul,
OSR stands for "Over Stressed Rifling", a condition where the rifling is said to be visible on the outside barrel surface, and supposedly due to bullets made from certain "harder" materials having been used.

Lots of stories floating around about this happening, but very little evidence to support them.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Paul
.400 member


Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 4seventy]
      #114035 - 09/09/08 04:57 PM

Thanks Alan,
I suppose if you got that condition in a rifle with outwardly visible hammer-forged rifling, the surface might become smooth (ha ha).

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Naren
.224 member


Reged: 05/04/08
Posts: 23
Loc: Somewhere
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: Paul]
      #114039 - 09/09/08 07:59 PM

The brass used in Barnes banded solids is indeed very soft... I have shoot several of them into oak logs and all of them were deformed at the tip... much more than the bullet in the photo. By comparison TB Sledgehammer made of said "naval bronze" deformed very little or not at all. And this is a bullet with soft lead core not a monolithic.
I dont know is this really as good as they say. For the barrels maybe but you know - you shoot elephants with this bullets and they deform...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Butch_Searcy
.224 member


Reged: 28/03/04
Posts: 6
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 500grains]
      #114063 - 10/09/08 12:07 AM

Dan,
I think it was a pressure problem. But not knowing all the facts we'll both keep wondering what really occured. Now as the crossing at 20 yds. one of two things is in play. First the rifle came that way from the factory(don't think so though). Or the wedge at the muzzle has come loose. This can and does happen most of the time from excessive pressures with hand loads. But in any case the stretching is definitly excessive pressure what ever the cause. And you know as I do that very few handloaders admits to screwing up, especically when they're not aware they screwed up.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 4seventy]
      #114067 - 10/09/08 12:37 AM

Quote:



Lots of stories floating around about this happening, but very little evidence to support them.



I have seen that on one vintage double which had a lot of X bullets (the ones without the grooves) shot through it. Then the rifle was pointed toward the sun, the rifling pattern could be faintly seen on the outside of the barrels.

___

Butch, that is good info. The 20 or so rounds I fired through the rifle were loaded with Woodleigh softs and just 110 gr. H4831. The owner of the rifle was out of ammo, but said I could shoot reloads through it and that he preferred 114 gr H 4831. When I looked up the load it seemed a bit hot, so I downloaded, figuring that if the bullets were 6" or so apart and not crossing, the load could be adjusted. But it was just the opposite. With the light load the bullets were crossing badly.

One other thing about that gun which I did not remember when I wrote my post last night is that the right firing pin liked to get stuck in the OUT position. So before the gun could be reloaded and closed, I had to press on the firing pin with the rim of an empty case to make the firing pin go back inside the action.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: DarylS]
      #114080 - 10/09/08 06:14 AM

Quote:

I for one, cannot see why a barrel would split or solder joints come loose from shooting an undersized bullet that produces less pressure and obviously less hoop-stress than a normal jacketed bullet.





Doesent anyone wonder why it is undersized, could it be that its so hard that the pressure rises to high passing thru the rifling otherwise. And the cannalures are there bequarse of what, perhaps that they need to be there as the metal wont compress to fit the rifling?

And also if the pressure is lover at peak doesent mean that the pressure is lower all the way thru the barrel.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26535
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 450_366]
      #114088 - 10/09/08 07:42 AM

Quote:


Doesent anyone wonder why it is undersized, could it be that its so hard that the pressure rises to high passing thru the rifling otherwise. And the cannalures are there bequarse of what, perhaps that they need to be there as the metal wont compress to fit the rifling?

And also if the pressure is lover at peak doesent mean that the pressure is lower all the way thru the barrel.


:
:
Barnes themselves have stated they went to the TS or banded system to reduce pressure and to increase accuracy. They have been forthcoming with that information. They have succeeded in both of these requirements from my own observations. The smooth sided varieties did indeed increase pressure if loaded too closely to the lands. I also witnessed that, BUT if given the proper 'run' before contact did not produce higher pressure in bolt action rifle barrels over other normal bullets when driven at identical velocties.

It is possible Barnes found out many or most doubles have very short throats (just an suposition of mine - no empirical evidence) and it is possible Barnes found out their solid solids produced excessive pressure in those chambers, therefore the change to the banded principal. Banded bullets make common sense when using homogenous solids. The bullet's multipal cannelures are there to allow the metal that is displaced by the lands to flow somewhere other than being impressed into the bullets sides and stringing off the bases as possibly happened before and this works in both regards listed above - to reduce pressure and to improve accuracy.

Making the bullets undersize which further reduces stress and pressure seems as a calculated measure to further make them suitable for double rifles of normal bore sizing. The old rifles are more prone to bore/groove size variations - one must know ones rifle, it's chamber size, bore size and groove diameter. For many handloaders (unfortunately not all), this is normal. First thing I do with a new rifle is to learn it's idiocyncracies - what 'size' is it? Do I have to make my brass from others? Do I have to make my bullets or are their comercial bullets available? I shoot undersize bullets in my 9.3x57, with no worries about excessive errosion, and do it at considerably higher pressures than a .470 produces. I know the barrel will last many seasons of my considerably test shooting inclined nature. It's fun to shoot and it shoots those undersize bullets very accurately.

Peak pressure is just that - pressure readings taken at the highest pressure developed by a given load. It stands to reason that if the peak pressures are reduced, they are lower at all times or places as the bullet passes up the bore. However to prove that would require pressure readings taken every inch or perhaps closer points maybe further apart would suffice, along the barrel and compared directly with identical readings with whose bullet, what load? It is possible a 'solid' bullet produces higher muzzle pressure or mid barrel pressure than does a 'standard' bullet. Again, pressure readings must to taken to prove or disprove this. As well, strain gauges would need to be placed to show whether or not the 'solid' solids produce more or less barrel distortion as the bullet travels up the bore. We are talking about an entire repetoire of tests needed to prove just one aspect of the claims.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 500grains]
      #114090 - 10/09/08 08:02 AM

Quote:



Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Lots of stories floating around about this happening, but very little evidence to support them.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I have seen that on one vintage double which had a lot of X bullets (the ones without the grooves) shot through it. Then the rifle was pointed toward the sun, the rifling pattern could be faintly seen on the outside of the barrels.





I don't doubt that examples of rifles with the OSR condition may exist.
It's that very few critical details on these rifles come forward.
Stories like Hollands episode where they wrecked a barrel set on a new double when regulating it with mono bullets, but precisely what happened would be nice to know.
Same for 400NE's reported problems with Barnes X in doubles.
I think all double rifle owners would like more information on the subject.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: DarylS]
      #114130 - 10/09/08 10:37 PM

[quote
Peak pressure is just that - pressure readings taken at the highest pressure developed by a given load. It stands to reason that if the peak pressures are reduced, they are lower at all times or places as the bullet passes up the bore. However to prove that would require pressure readings taken every inch or perhaps closer points maybe further apart would suffice, along the barrel and compared directly with identical readings with whose bullet, what load? It is possible a 'solid' bullet produces higher muzzle pressure or mid barrel pressure than does a 'standard' bullet. Again, pressure readings must to taken to prove or disprove this. As well, strain gauges would need to be placed to show whether or not the 'solid' solids produce more or less barrel distortion as the bullet travels up the bore. We are talking about an entire repetoire of tests needed to prove just one aspect of the claims.



They have been testing the pressures in the chamber together with the pressures in front of the chamber and midway of the barrel for at least 140 years. Then it was the old lead crusher, now they are a bit more adcvanced. But there are for sure beeing test where the pressure curve from ignition to mussle are beeing made. It not that hard as only one "hole" in the chamber is all you need, in this you plug the pressure gouge and you dont stop watching it untill the bullet is out of the barrel. Ofcourse it helps if you slow it down with a computer.
And the peakpressure drops as soon as the bullet starts moving or at least a couple of inches infront of the case, but it could substain longer even if its lover than peak.

The thing i wanted to state is that if it needs to be undersized and half of its metal removed, it is probably prone to produce overpressure. And that it works for a heavy bolt barrel doesent mean that it would if you thin the barrel down. Its not hard to understand why a soft solder joint would fail if you concider that the barrel is incresing in diameter as the bullet passes. And a thinner one surely will flex more than a thicker.

Btw, all the break open rifles i have checked, the free travel of the bullet is huge, and this is as i understand a way of reducing the problem with pressure.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 450_366]
      #114150 - 11/09/08 04:37 AM

There was a fella in Australia that posted, I cannot remember his name or whether he posted here or on AR, or both, that split the solder on the barrels of his 9,3x74R Chapuis shooting Barnes bullets.

He sent it back to Chapuis to be fixed. Then split it again, also shooting Barnes bullets and again sent it back to be fixed a second time.

He reported they asked him what he was shooting, when he told him Barnes, they told him not to shoot them in his Chapuis 9,3.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #114151 - 11/09/08 04:38 AM



NE450No2

I think that guy was in the US and that story was posted on AR .

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pilgrim
.275 member


Reged: 25/05/04
Posts: 57
Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #114300 - 13/09/08 04:15 AM

It just gets stranger and weirder everytime this topic gets posted. I asked one of the Chapuis brothers face to face at the 2006 SCI convention whether Barnes bullets (specifically TSX and banded solids) were safe in his rifles. I was asking about my UGEX 9.3 X 74R. He hemmed around a bit and eventually decided not to answer the question. The SCI 2006 convention was after the reported barrel damage showed up on the net. To me it is very strange that one of the owners of the company didn't know about the apparent damage to one of his rifles with Barnes bullets. If the factory told Mr. "X" not to use them, why didn't the brother (Philip?) simply say "don't use them". That isn't too tough to say, at least IMO. Similarly, I respect 400NE's experience and have absolutely no reason to challenge his opinion. However, at the same SCI convention I asked Ms. Brooks personally what the story was with regard to their bullets and DR's. Both she and a custom loader that was in their booth at the time swore upon a "virutal stack of bibles" so to speak that the TSX and banded solids were OK in DR's. Being somewhat chicken in my view of things, I recently sold all of my Barnes 9.3mm TSX's and solids rather than shoot them and see what happened. Somewhere out there is an individual with enough money and time to take a DR and shoot the h*ll out of it with the aforementioned bullets and tell us what happens. Except for the cost of the rifle, I would do it. At that, a single rifle really proves nothing, but would lessen the pucker factor for others. FWIW Pilgrim

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bwananelson
.400 member


Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
Loc: DELTONA FLORIDA
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: Pilgrim]
      #114351 - 14/09/08 04:21 AM

i asked at the 2007 sci show the same question to merkel and zoli the answer was yes.in a few months i will be at the shot show and i will ask this of all the double makers i see.i am a barnes fan and have been for years.but i also know when to trust experiance so till i find out more i will hold off in my doubles.a barrel will have some whip action when shot being held in place will make this less flexable is this the probable cause or is it isolated,as pointed out before partitions should cause this and hornadery major maker has a new dg steel clad round,nosler new solid,every maker now produces solids and in these days of litagation you think it would be stated not for use in doubles.at the show i will have a chance to ask all yhe ammo makers the same.what do the reloading manuels say not for use in doubles,like the 45 70 round they will state not for use in trapdoor models.and i also asked connie at the show and was told the same.she uses them in her 470.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: bwananelson]
      #114359 - 14/09/08 07:56 AM

Maybe Naren has a point - if barnes solids are deforming then whether or not they are safe to shoot in a double is purely academic. You wouldn't shoot them for practice and think twice about relying on them for elephant...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #114365 - 14/09/08 10:01 AM

Here we have a company, Barnes, going the extra mile to convince the skeptical it is OK to shoot Barnes bullets in doubles. I mean, Barnes is really pushing it, eliminating all excuses and making the job of a plaintiff with male threads on the length of his $100,000 barrel a no-brainer.

To repeat; That someone takes them up on it and wrecks his gun because of their bullets seems like an easy task to prove...if it is true.

It seems to me a ridiculously easy task to prove OSR. Have some curious gunsmith turn a barrel to whatever diameter you like, screw the thing to an action, type irrelevant, and start shooting Barnes bullets. After a while, shine a light on the tube.

I have no dog in this fight. I do not own a single double. However, I have read of OSR and the other ills involving Barnes bullets for a long time and have yet to read one clearly documented case of damage caused by Barnes slugs to a double.

I read the theoretical risks, and some aspects of them look totally plausible, but whenever somebody asks for names, dates, conditions, rifle, bullets, loads and measurements, such info is not forthcoming.

Gas blowby with undersize bullets seems plausible and is fairly well accepted, tho caused by more bullets than what are commonly shot in a fellow's double I suppose {???}. OSR maybe so in light of the thin barrels being suggested.

But Barnes has a name, address and phone number. Those who say differently do not. To be blunt, I'm just trying to figure out if the naysayers have an interest in somebody's else's product because I sincerely do not know the answer to that question, and I believe it is an honest and legitimate question to ask. No insult intended either to Barnes or those who condemn them.

Daryl's layout of the issues strikes me as reasonable. If there are facts and figures not so far presented, I'd love to read of them.

Very interesting post.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #114366 - 14/09/08 10:06 AM



Barnes can say what the hell they like because they ain't going to pay for a new set of barrels IF their bullets
fuck them.

Anyone disagree with the above statement ?


So someone go to them with a $100,000 Holland Royal
and say that they will shoot ONLY Barnes bullets though
it but IF the barrels end up being stuffed, they have to
pay for a new gun.

I bet you they won't.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #114369 - 14/09/08 10:20 AM

500:

Maybe not, but the risk of possibly having to far weighs the possible advantages gained. As I stated, they are begging for it.

You could be right, but product liability suits are at best a pain in the butt, and for a company to chase trouble seems absurd...or incredibly stupid.

If they are that stupid, I really wouldn't care to buy any product from them for fear that their stupidity might not be limited to monometal bullets. Ya never know, it might trickle down to some other production line!

Just for the record, no, I don't have an interest in Barnes.

As I said, I think demonstrating OSR with Barnes bullets should be a cinch.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26535
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 450_366]
      #114371 - 14/09/08 10:30 AM

450-366 - yes - pressure for the length of the barrel has been tested in some calibres - I've seen results showing this,, mostly in varmint calibres but never when comparing one bullet 'type' to another ie: Barnes Banded Solids or TSX-type bullets. What hasn't been tested was the "other 1/2 of the quandry" - barrel distortion comparrisons - and they must be comparrisons, not singled out tests showing one side only - comparrisons are needed. Light barrels will probably show the golf-ball-in-a-snake syndrome as the bulelt passes down the tube with all bullets - what is important here, is if this phenominum is worse with banded bullets or not. It's easy to 'think' it is happening more with all mono bulelts, but is it? If worse which I rather doubt it due to the smaller diameter of Barnes bandeds, is it bad enough to cause problems like inverted rifling? What is normal with softs and steel jacketed solids? Yes, yes - lots of questions but few reliable answers that I've seen. Third or forth-hand stories just don't have much basis in fact and can be very damaging to whom ever carries the brunt of it.

I guess I should say that I have no interest in Barnes - no stocks, no double rifle either for that matter. I am interested in justice being served - pro or con. Too many times I've seen one sided ruhmors destroy someone's credibility. Barnes is a home-grown business developed by very nice people who deserve more than suppositions.

The loading I did with them in my .458 bolt gun showed incredibly good results and identical external ballistics to other jacketed bullets of the same weight. Granted, I wasn't using them in a $20,000 (or more) double, but my barrel was just as 'thin' towards the muzzle as many doubles and I experienced no problems with banded 350's running well over 50,000PSI breech pressure. The pressure, of course, is just a guess, but how else do you get 2,400fps with 350gr. from a 2" case?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: DarylS]
      #114412 - 14/09/08 06:09 PM

Yeas there are need for scientific test to prove if or if not they are harmful. But the fact provided by barnes is not near any proof that they are safe. They have for sure tested the pressurecurve with they bullets as soon somebody whispered overpressure.

Im not saying they are crap and suffer from overpressure and ruin doubles. If they are harmfull there would be a bunch of combos and drillings wrecked also. Im just saying they must have been problems with the old ones as they altered the shape of them. And if there was problem with the old ones they for sure conducted meny test to get the new ones right. Then there would be more proof to show then a company giving som figures that doesent provide any powder or anything saying they are safe. I for sure wouldnt trust any company or person with a economic interest saying go ahead shoot them they are just fine. If someone ruins a barrel they a surely not willing to admit that it was a there bullet that caused the problem.

You are right, one cant trust third of fourth hand stories, the truth is that first hand stories many times are wrong from the beginning.

If i get the time to complete my 9,3mm project i will get som barnes and shoot them with the same charge as the other bullets and see if they at least show a different pressure curve.And if someone would donate a second strain gauge i would glue it 20cm from the mussle and see if there
are any difference in barrel flex.

I do have a interest in barnes. If they are succeding in banning the lead i ammunition here in sweden i would want an alternetive, and problems or not they seem to be a wery good bullet.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Barnes bullets in a Double --as per Barnes Newsletter-?? [Re: 450_366]
      #114427 - 15/09/08 12:30 AM

450 366:

Daryl's point about comparisons is a good one. And pressure ALONE, to my way of thinking really isn't the proof of much of anything in this issue, so I agree Barnes ad slick isn't adressing all the specific issues relating to the specific damage being reported.

Merely measuring a pressure curve in one barrel isn't going to be relevant to the damage that may have occurred in another barrel of different internal AND external dimensions. And the latter does appear to be relevant in this issue where it normally is not when we refer to typical sporter-weight bolt action barrels.

I'd like to see pictures of the damaged barrels. I have a sort-of mental picture of where OSR might occur {due to pressure curve and barrel thickness} but have never seen it. I have however, seen some very thin custom mountain rifle barrels that operate at much higher pressures than typical NE rifles and have demonstrated no damage, but then they were made with modern steel.

Are the offending bullets fully engraved to groove depth when they leave the barrels of the damaged rifles? If so, at what point in the barrel do they reach complete engraving? It would seem that beyond that point, no OSR would occur {tho rapid rifling wear might still occur}. So does OSR occur in the breech 1/2 of the barrel, the thickest part? Or, do the bullets engrave so "slowly" and thus over a long portion of barrel that they are "pushing" rifling out all along that longer portion of the barrel before they are fully engraved? With the high costs of doubles involved and the relatively cheap cost to run a relevant experiment, it would seem logical to suggest that maybe such experiments have already been run and could be referecned here for us?

It would also help to know if it is the actual bullets refered to in the Barnes ad that ruined barrels or somebody else's. In disparaging a product, it is prudent to make sure the criticism is directed at the actual product said to be the culprit... Barnes themselves seem to admit that UN-banded bullets are prone to mischief but the bullets they refer to in the ad are not un-banded. Direct documentation of comparisons of different loads and the rifles in which they have been fired, including barrel wall thickness would also help if such comparisons exist.

I'd be interested to see a direct comparison of the compressability of thick steel-jacketed Woodleighs vs. the driving-band Barnes bullets.

In observing undersize recovered bullets from one of my rifles it is obvious that full groove depth has not occured on one side of the bullet. If this occurs with a mono-metal bullet and involves some amount of tipping in a thin-tubed double barrel, does that tipping cause some problem?

The accusations made against Barnes intuitively sound plausible to me, but it would be nice to put the issue to rest with facts since it would seem Barnes is making a bold assertion of product suitability and that assertion is being put directly not to owners of NEF Handi-Rifles, but to those who own very expensive rifles and who are likely to be in a position to make Barnes eat their words if Barnes is wrong. And no, I actually do not believe it would be that difficult to make a problem of this for Barnes, either as a suit or as a claim against their commercial liability carrier IF they are dead wrong and their assertions lead to damage caused by their bullets. I'm not guaranteeing a win of course, but such action, particularly of a repeated nature, would be hard to ignore by any company.

Since "dozens" of rifles are said to have been damaged, I would think that at least some one or two of the rifles would have been high value guns and some number of their owners would have gone after Barnes for promoting the specific bullets mentioned in the ad posted by RIPP.

Unless those bullets were not the ones that actually caused the damage.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (15/09/08 02:13 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | >> (show all)


Previous topic Previous   Search Results   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 51 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 41343

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved