Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion?

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

Pages: 1
fiatcrew
.224 member


Reged: 21/02/22
Posts: 11
Loc: Pennsylvania
Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion?
      #363382 - 12/03/22 03:11 PM

I am going to start building a double rifle on a 1924 Belgian shotgun frame. My son and I
are having a debate on which cartridge to use. He wants a English nitro or BP caliber. I said to
go with an American case such as a 45-70, 45-90 50-70 or 50-110.The cases are more available and cheaper. What are your thoughts? I was going to post on the building site but there have no new posts in a long time.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Illinois
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #365594 - 18/05/22 11:55 PM

There is a lot to explore here, do you have "THE BOOK"? If you have everything else sorted out, I would bet that the 50-110 would beat the snot out of you, and would be very hard to regulate. Is that gonna be fun??? On the other hand the 45-70 is always recommended for the easiest cartridge to work up loads for and will be fun to shoot. It also has the widest range of Bullet weights available. Also The 45-90 can be loaded down to the 45-70 velocities pretty easily, or load it up and you will have a wider range of "regulation" possibilities, I think. What is your goal? Are you Elephant hunting or just having fun?....NOTE, I have never built a double rifle or done a conversion,,,,,just my .02,,,,,LK

Edited by Longknife (19/05/22 12:38 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
crshelton
.333 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: Longknife]
      #365606 - 19/05/22 02:22 AM

What Longknife said and double on answering whether you have read "The Book", which for me was the books by W Ellis Brown. I also found much good info in the Cal Pappas book, The Double Rifle Primer.
I will add the .405 WCF for consideration as I shoot that cartridge in DR and in 1895 lever action.
Good for African and American game.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: crshelton]
      #365609 - 19/05/22 02:43 AM

I was somewhat surprised and delighted to see your inclusion of the .50/70 in the list of possibilities.
I played with one, a single shot Sharps, 1868, for a while. Accurate Arms, now Western Powders had data at that time using AA2015 powder pushing the 450gr. Lyman bullet at 1,800 fps.
At the time I daydreamed of such a ctg. In a DR made on a good shotgun action.
My current model 1876 Winch in .50/95 drives a 368gr. FN Lyman bullet at 1,650fps. I am sure it will "answer" for anything I need it for. The .50/70 will easily match that, I am sure with a variety of loads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8665
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: DarylS]
      #365705 - 21/05/22 07:38 PM

50-110, the case is "reasonable" and you gethe most out of this

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
transvaal
.300 member


Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 130
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #365777 - 24/05/22 12:57 AM

Quote:

I am going to start building a double rifle on a 1924 Belgian shotgun frame. My son and I
are having a debate on which cartridge to use. He wants a English nitro or BP caliber. I said to
go with an American case such as a 45-70, 45-90 50-70 or 50-110.The cases are more available and cheaper. What are your thoughts? I was going to post on the building site but there have no new posts in a long time.




Sir;

Having built several double rifles on shotgun actions, I will give you some advice in regard to your question and other issues that you may not have thought about ( as there were issues that I had not thought about when I first started building double rifles).

The selection of a cartridge for a double rifle built on a shotgun action is first of all related to the design and alloy steel content of the shotgun action's (is it strong enough) and secondly to the design of this action's firing pin mechanisms (does the action have removable firing pin discs that screw into the face of the action---these discs are known in the British and European gun trade as "striker discs"). The majority of boxlock (such as the American, Belgium and British boxlocks) shotgun actions do not have these striker discs, but there are some very strong European actions that do have striker discs such as the Brno model ZP-49. Many Spanish boxlock actions have striker discs. If you will look back through the old posts of this website you will see a poster from Canada who built many double rifle on the ZP49 action and I have as well--the ones built in the late 1950's and the 1960 are the ones to use.

Striker discs in a shotgun action allow the builder to make new striker discs with the firing pin (striker) hole diameter to the correct smaller size for the primer size of the cartridge used and to reduce the concern about ruptured primers and the gases emitted during a primer rupture. A large diameter shotgun firing pin might work with a cartridge like a .45-70 but not for a cartridge say like a .30-30. Just take a look at whatever rifle you have and you will see the firing pin diameter is much smaller than your 12 gauge shotgun firing pin diameter.

All of the .45 and.50 caliber cartridges that you mention above could be built on a strong shotgun action by a person who is prudent in his work and might be OK with a 12 gauge shotgun firing pin, but in my experience I would not built with a shotgun action that did not have striker discs because I have had ruptured primers on double rifles.

Of the cartridges you mention I would choose the .45-70 because of its ease of regulating and building for a first time double rifle builder.

The late Bob Hynden, who posted here before his death built maybe 8-10 double rifles on .45-70 and he found them to be his favorite.

Further in regard to converting a shotgun action to striker discs weakens the action and a prudent person would not do this.

Also threading the barrels and the barrel monobloc stub weakens (takes away metal) the barrels at the point of most pressure and TiG welding is the process to use.

A important side issues is the equipment you have in your home shop or at another shop you have access---a lathe and a milling machine, and finally your understanding of building a double rifle such as the all important method of building the barrel set with the correct amount of bore convergence before you ever begin the regulation of the barrels which require good understanding of soldering and brazing techniques. In this regard knowing which method of moving the barrels at the muzzle during regulation needs to be decided before you begin i.e. are you going to use the method of move a wedge length wise to the barrels or are you going to use the Holland & Holland method of moving a wedge between the barrel muzzle up and down.

Having said all of this please feel free to PM me for any other details that you might want to discuss.

Stephen Howell


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: transvaal]
      #365779 - 24/05/22 01:02 AM

Good info, Stephen.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
crshelton
.333 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: DarylS]
      #365909 - 26/05/22 02:55 AM

Another "thanks" to Stephen for the information supplied.

Thanks for the kind reference to Bob Hynden as two of my rifles were made by Bob. He and I had planned a 45-90 DR on an action that he had but he passed away before we could begin the project. When Marie was selling some gun making things from the estate, she learned that another client that was first in line for the Beretta .45-70 DR would not be buying it, she asked me if I would be interested.

My response was "Heck yes" (I was unaware the rifle existed before then) , as extending the chambers would make the 45-90 that I wanted!
Bottom line is that after I shot the 45-70 DR a few times and proved the barrels to be individually sub minute of angle accurate, it went to Aaron Little in East Texas where the chambers were extended, the barrels regulated, and the fixed scope mounts replaced with quick release mounts. I am happy to report that the rifle regulation is tight at 45 yards and still good at 100 yards! To field test it, I shot a Blackbuck at 100 yards recently and it went over like a steel target.

BtW, I had loaded a set of trial ammo with North Fork 350 SS from 60 -67 grains of N133 and found that very accurate but chose to forego shooting the hotter loads until my son and I get out with my 1886 45-90 (both rifles have 26 inch barrels) and barrel mounted Chrony, weather and other issues have delayed our plans so far. The velocity results will be reported!

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Evan
.224 member


Reged: 19/12/21
Posts: 26
Loc: British Columbia
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: crshelton]
      #366343 - 05/06/22 07:30 AM

I started a double barrel shotgun conversion, I bought a mid 70's Merkel SxS and then bought 2x 43 Mauser barrels off 71/84's turned the barrels to slide in the shotgun tubes with a flange (made the knox of the barrel look like a 12 gauge case) and cut the to 28" then installed them in the tubes, I was going to silver solder them in place but I loved the fit and feel of the shotgun so much, 3 years later its still a 12g and I've been holding onto the 43 Mauser barrels waiting for another SxS

my plan was to used set screws or wedges/eccentric rings I the muzzle to regulate the barrels. I was just planning on setting them both up for 75m with a 360 cast bullet and a case full of hodgdon 777 not compressed

Edited by Evan (05/06/22 07:33 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
fiatcrew
.224 member


Reged: 21/02/22
Posts: 11
Loc: Pennsylvania
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: transvaal]
      #366648 - 12/06/22 10:56 AM

Mr. Howell, Thank you for this information. I have built rifles before but a double will be a first.
I am a bit confused on the strikers. Mr. brown states it is a good idea to drill and insert a bushing with new firing pins. Do you feel that this would cause a significant weakening of the frame. Would this be a good tradeoff to redirect gas in the event of a pierced primer?
Thank You
Nick


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #366655 - 12/06/22 03:44 PM

I think Mr. Brown was referring to making .050" to .062" bushings and pins, rather than the large BP type shotgun firing pins.
The smaller pins are needed for smokeless powders.
If you are running pressures in the low range, below 25,000psi the small pins are not necessary.
I've run my .45/60 (2.60oal) loads with 405gr. jacketed bullets to 1,850fps (35" bl.) with BP pin on my 1868 Sharps, without any trouble. These loads were listed (extrapolated) in Hodgdon's .45/70 data as being around 18,000psi. Due to jacketed bullet, the pressure could have been considerably higher. The load with cast bullets was listed at about 1,600fps from a 24" bl.
Primer appearance after firing was normal/soft pressure.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
fiatcrew
.224 member


Reged: 21/02/22
Posts: 11
Loc: Pennsylvania
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: DarylS]
      #366673 - 13/06/22 01:18 AM

Thank you for the clarification.
Nick


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #366674 - 13/06/22 01:32 AM

This topic has been discussed before, including meaasurements and a couple of photos I tossed up on the web.
Just did a search: Results Here.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
transvaal
.300 member


Reged: 19/01/13
Posts: 130
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: fiatcrew]
      #366707 - 14/06/22 03:34 AM

Quote:

Mr. Howell, Thank you for this information. I have built rifles before but a double will be a first.
I am a bit confused on the strikers. Mr. brown states it is a good idea to drill and insert a bushing with new firing pins. Do you feel that this would cause a significant weakening of the frame. Would this be a good tradeoff to redirect gas in the event of a pierced primer?
Thank You
Nick




Dear Nick;

Since you are a rifle builder and understand metal work and the strength of metals, your question about the removal of the significant amount of metal from the face of a boxlock action to install two-piece retrofit striker discs and what effect it would have on the strength of that action is prudent and indicates to me that you have given it considerable thought. All boxlock actions are not built of the size and strength of the famous Greener Empire action--which has a thick standing breech portion of its action from which the strikers (firing pins) operate and protrude through to fire the cartridge. The Greener Empire action is just about the ideal rugged shotgun action, and of course many would argue that the Webley Screw Grip made the strongest of all actions for a double rifle and just as many would argue that the Rigby rising bite action and the Westley Richards double rifle action were the strongest.

Some (maybe better said, most) boxlock shotgun actions (without factory striker discs) have a significant amount of the back of the standing breech cut away to allow the tumbler with its integral striker nose to freely move forward and strike the cartridge as the below diagram shows (see the link to the diagram). On boxlock action such as this the removal of significantly more metal on the face of the standing breech to add a 2-piece retrofit striker disc assembly is not a method that I find prudent.

Boxlock and sidelock actions that were originally made from the factory with striker discs do not have this significant carving away of the back of the standing breech of the action. If you will scroll down to the second diagram of the below link you will see a sidelock back action shotgun that although it does not have striker discs it shows how thick the back of the standing breech is without the cutting away for a tumbler with an integral firing pin. I will search the web and see if I can find a diagram of an action with striker discs that I can add to this post that better illustrates the issue at hand.

Re-directing primer rupture gas from the face of the action via a slot across the face has been done for decades and seems effective to my mind.

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/shooting/start-shooting/the-anatomy-of-a-shotgun-46268

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

Edited by transvaal (14/06/22 06:05 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
crshelton
.333 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: transvaal]
      #367303 - 29/06/22 11:23 PM

Re-directing primer rupture gas from the face of the action via a slot across the face has been done for decades and seems effective to my mind."

Another example by Beretta:


The face of my Beretta .45-90 DR -- just in case!

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: crshelton]
      #367316 - 30/06/22 01:52 AM

Nice crshelton. That radius at the rear of the water table/bottom of the face, is a very important feature as well (as I understand design for rifle ctgs).

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
crshelton
.333 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: DarylS]
      #367490 - 05/07/22 02:16 AM

Daryl,
Another good feature of this action is that the Factory Proof pressure was 17, 637 psi with 12 ga shells. That translates into much more with a smaller shell base such as a .405 or .45-70.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: crshelton]
      #367491 - 05/07/22 02:21 AM

I've been wondering, how much higher than usable pressure, is the "proof" pressure?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
crshelton
.333 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: DarylS]
      #367498 - 05/07/22 04:29 AM


Not the way to approach the issue.
If you are interested, I can cut and paste the three paragraph explanation of the process for you.
I have a couple of gunmaker friends with whom I shared a lot of detail and you should find some of that interesting. Let me know if you want some reading.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: crshelton]
      #367499 - 05/07/22 05:23 AM

Sure - that would be great! I will pm you my E-mail address.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
crshelton
.333 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: Which cartridge would be good for a shotgun conversion? [Re: DarylS]
      #367807 - 17/07/22 07:48 AM

Daryl,
Sorry for the slow follow up, but my whole family came down with a very bad cold.
Did you receive the material that I posted for you?

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
0 registered and 10 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4965

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved