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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Shotguns

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
hold for me
      #245837 - 16/04/14 05:54 AM

a Collath No.4 double gun also to good to let it go
its for a Teschner-Collath special shotgun cartridge but eat 12/65 BP shotshells too













--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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tinker
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Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #245862 - 16/04/14 11:59 AM

Nice!!

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lancaster
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Re: hold for me [Re: tinker]
      #245875 - 16/04/14 01:59 PM

I hope you can understand my desire

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Igorrock
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Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #245885 - 16/04/14 05:56 PM

Looks very good. You soon have to buy a bigger safe for yours weapons....

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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fuhrmann
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Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #245904 - 17/04/14 01:18 AM

Quote:

I hope you can understand my desire




Yes I can!
But how about the Damascus barrels - do they happen to have nitro proof?
If not, this baby will need a special diet with black powder ..
fuhrmann


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lancaster
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Re: hold for me [Re: fuhrmann]
      #245908 - 17/04/14 03:12 AM

you know there is no logical reason to buy a blackpowder double gun but with such a stunning beauty before my nose what should I do? was on my list for many years and when I had it in my hands there was no doubt anymore.
I was in the basement today to clean my 12 ga RCBS reloading die set. there is no problem to load blackpowder shotshells and I have some hundred unfired paper shells also.

can only tell you that the pics dont justice this double gun

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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fuhrmann
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Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #245945 - 17/04/14 04:50 PM

Congratulations then!
This is fantastic, I'd also say "must have"...
And even with a nitro proof, one would probably have to load low-pressure cartridges.


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lancaster
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Re: hold for me [Re: fuhrmann]
      #245946 - 17/04/14 05:03 PM

with modern sophisticated made damascus steel you can shoot probably anything you want but with this late 19. century handmade damascus from Liege where is the end? some do it and shoot light nitro for black loads but you are allways on a thin line.
someone must do the work and pressure test all this loads you can made, blackpowder and nitro loads to have a scientific basis about this problems. but it will cost realy a lot of money and this only for a handful of vintage double gun lover.

I cant see someone will do this investment!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (17/04/14 06:34 PM)


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fuhrmann
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Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #245952 - 17/04/14 08:28 PM

Lancaster,

yes I agree, one must be careful with these old barrels.
From my very limited experience, I can tell that full black powder loads can feel quite "stout".
Many years back my brother loaded some 16 gauge shells testing real vintage black powder (French, labelled "Forte"). He recorded muzzle velocity of 380 m/s (close to modern smokeless) and observed torn paper hulls...
My feeling that the right smokeless loads may be even milder than black powder, but as you say, it requires lots of knowledge and testing.

I have seen a lot of information on loading for vintage shotguns here:
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=a66de0ac193a82c1c7cfcc508919eae5

For once, you have the wrong gauge with your 12, but seeing this wealth of 16 ga. data I would expect that there should be some data for 12 ga. too.

In the US,you can buy low-pressure shells
http://www.polywad.com/vintager.html
http://www.rstshells.com/store/pg/7-RST-About-Us.aspx

I exchanged some emails with these people some years ago, no export to Europe at that time.

fuhrmann


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: hold for me [Re: fuhrmann]
      #247481 - 16/05/14 09:50 PM

so the gun is here and work allready startet...



to open a Teschner Collath you turn the underlever to the left side




at some point the barrels move forward, the extractor move backward and the looks are cocked



now the barrel drop by gravity



to close the gun you push the barrels down with the thump of the left hand and then turning the underlever back



if you wish to uncock you press both triggers with the right hand fingers and turn the lever back



cocked and safe after turning the safety wing



you see the safety wing in the "safe" position when aiming



safety catch of




some details of a most beautyful gun

























good as any other gun I know

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (16/05/14 10:57 PM)


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #247483 - 16/05/14 10:24 PM

also on paper:
the Teschner-Collath action startet in the late 1850s as a needle fire gun for a paper cartridge without base after some modifications the same action lived into the 1920s suitable for big nitro cartridges

Zimmer 1873




the 1914 catalog







tesco was alsways very innovative, here a monoblog


the guns were made in five qualitys



the difference between the 3. and 4. quality was the monoblog
my damascus gun would compare with this steel barrels guns






the teschner collath and the v. dreyse double gun, the dreyse looks more early 19. century





with a "modern shotgun" , Gebr. Adamy 16 ga




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (16/05/14 10:59 PM)


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
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Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #247484 - 17/05/14 12:00 AM

Beautiful!

Is the top tang cracked ahead of the bird?


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lancaster
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Re: hold for me [Re: tinker]
      #247487 - 17/05/14 03:06 AM

yes, it looks strange but why only in the middle and dont crack from on side to the other? I will talk with a competent gunsmith about this problem before firing the gun. fortunately the upper tang on the TESCO gun is a seperate part unlike most other break-down frame's


so I hope it can be repaired without hassle if necessary

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Igorrock
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Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #247488 - 17/05/14 03:21 AM

Very nice weapons, haven´t ever handled any Collath or Dreyse action myself.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1770
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Re: hold for me [Re: Igorrock]
      #247491 - 17/05/14 07:46 AM

In late 2013 the German Gun Collectors Association www.germanguns.com published a 30 page journal, “Der Waffenschmied No. 45”, on the Teschner & Co, Wilhelm Collath, Frankfurt a.d. Oder, company. It is available from their bookstore, plus a reprint of a catalog.

Contents:
The Company Teschner & Co.(on company history),
The “Collath” action and Collath inventions (on the history of the Renette – Gastinne – Lancaster – Berger – Collath slide and tilt action and 12 other gun patents + 27 registered designs assigned to the Collaths)
Collath Picture Gallery
Ammunition by Teschner & Co., W.Collath, tm TESCO
Lots of pictures.

Edited by kuduae (18/05/14 03:35 AM)


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3978
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: hold for me [Re: Igorrock]
      #247493 - 17/05/14 08:00 AM

Lancaster,
what a wonderful piece of history you have there - a true gem!
I'm with fuhrmann in this case, I would only feed this baby with BP.
I sincerely hope the crack Tinker found (I missed it first time) won't affect the safety of this old gun & be repairable without damage to that beautiful engraving!
Fingers cross for you mate!
Would love to see a video of the whole loading, firing & unloading process of this type of rifle/gun.
Lovely engineering & artistry rolled into one neat package!
Love this stuff
Cheers
93x64mm


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: hold for me [Re: 93x64mm]
      #247497 - 17/05/14 01:43 PM

to get the barrels out you have to unloose the little screw on on the left side behind the pin that hold the barrel



if the screw is out you can push the pin to the right side and the barrels come free





serial number: No. 4969. C.1
the C(?) is maybe for Caliber written with a C and not with a K as Kaliber in modern german

in "Der Waffenschmied No.45" you see Drillings in the 3400-3500 number range without proof so make before 1891. if you remember that v.Dreyse reach the 20000 in the 1880s its clear that it had a much bigger circulation. but Dreyse was one of the biggest military rifle maker then build up with government money.





eagle and U with crown proof so made in the 1890s




S and BERN on the damascus barrels, right barrel have the E in BERN back to front
I think its the stamp of the barrel maker




serial number and CP under the barrel
CP could be Collath Patent?







the barrels are inside like a mirror

I have seen worse so not bad for damascus black powder

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (17/05/14 01:46 PM)


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #247498 - 17/05/14 02:05 PM

It looks so nice!

I'd shoot it for sure, would likely ignore the top strap.
Really great looking gun.






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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BB416
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Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #247501 - 17/05/14 05:51 PM

She's a beauty!! Congratulations on owning a lovely piece of history

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lancaster
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Re: hold for me [Re: BB416]
      #247507 - 17/05/14 09:49 PM

the original TESCO shotgun cartridge is a paper cartridge with "Schlußspiegel". the german Spiegel means not mirror but sabot like in "Treibspiegel" and is a lightly conical massive end piece. this conical end was pressed into the conical chamber for obturation.
the primer have a steel pin inside driven into the needle fire pill by a common firing pin. so its a missing link between the needle fire and the center fire cartridge. to give the thin paper cartridge more strength it have a second high base most time black lacquered steel.

this illustration from 1873 show the cartridge that was developt in the 1860s



beside of Dreyse was Teschner Collath the only firm with a complete proprietary shotgun cartridge family. this happen in the 1860s when the muzzle loader gun was still predominant and the pin fire cartridge was brand new.
TESCO named the caliber by numbers where No. 0 was the biggest( close to 10 ga) and No. 8 was the smallest( 28 bore)
please dont ask where No. 2 is, nobody knows


most common is No.1 , 3 and 4 what is more or less 12 ga, 14 ga and 16 ga
no surprise! you will find for every Collath cartridge a CF shotgun shell that will fit into the chamber.



the Collath gun will fire common center fire primer without problems and Tesco start probably in the 1890s to make the TESCO shotgun cartridge with this primer also.



"Für das Ausland..."
- "for foreign countrys where its maybe a problem to get our own shotgun cartridges we make our guns fore the common center fire cartridges on special order"



the "Diana" cartridge wit another base but the TESCO primer




Teschner Collath 12 and 16 ga paper shells




this shotgun cartridges are rare on the collector market today! I found only 4 paper shells in my box.
from left to right:
12ga. Gevelot pin fire, old Schönebeck 12ga BP, new 12 ga Gamebore BP, old style Tesco No 1 BP shell with Gevelot primer( up to the 1990s the most used center fire primer in europe), a No 3 BP shell with Tesco primer, a No.4 Nitro shell for a center fire primer similar to the moder 209 shotgun primer and No. 4 Nitro shell without the second black steel base for gevelot primer




why BP and Nitro shell? for some time it was popular to distinguish BP and Nitro shotshells by green and red paper. something that survive in the little RWS "Alarmpatrone" blank cartridge loaded with green paper shells for black powder up to now.




my gun is a No.1





a 12 magtech and a 12 ga. Schönebeck shell fired in the gun




magtech brass have a thin rim and the primer try to leave the pocket



12/70mm long shell, 12 ga Magtech brass( only 63mm long) and the 12 ga Schönebeck cut down to 65 mm


70mm long shell in the right barrel and 65 mm long in the left barrel




when looking into old stock I found 400 unfired but primed( Gevelot primer) 70mm long Schönebeck shells. they may be over 20 years old now because the 209 primer came then in common use. cut the shells on a buzzsaw what need a little bit over 30 minutes for this 400 pieces. you need the sharpest saw blade you can get for this work. there were also 400 -500 76mm or 3" long unfired paper shells I forgot but they were store away for the things to come.


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (17/05/14 10:38 PM)


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tinker
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Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #247508 - 17/05/14 10:40 PM

A couple strikes on the magtech thin brass rim will allow it to headspace properly.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: hold for me [Re: tinker]
      #247509 - 17/05/14 10:54 PM

Another, later Collath gun: As it is signed „W.Collath Söhne, Frankfurt a.d. Oder” + the “TESCO” trademark, it was made post-1906, the death of Wilhelm Collath. First made as a s/s 20 gauge 2 ½ “ shotgun, post-1912 Nitro proof, serial # 21310.


A short time later G.Teschner & Co., W.Collath Söhne, fitted interchangeable combination or cape gun barrels, originally in 20 2 ½ “ and 6.5x70R, a very slim “pencil” cartridge. In 1930 the rifle barrel was rebored, rechambered and reproofed to take the slightly fatter 7x72R Brenneke cartridge.

The breech shows the additional 1897, DRGM 128479, “Collath Kammerverschluss” = chamber lockup, two discs integral with the breech face going into the rear ends of the chambers.

The combination barrels are mounted with (now) a 4x Hensoldt scope on Collath’s own 1902 slide on scope mount, DRGM 176777.


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: hold for me [Re: kuduae]
      #247513 - 18/05/14 12:04 AM

S and BERN on the damascus barrels, right barrel have the E in BERN back to front
I think its the stamp of the barrel maker

"BERN" most likely stands for A. Bernard, Liege, Belgium, who in 1855 patented a novel, improved damascus pattern, named for him "Bernard Damast". Most high grade damascus Barrels were imported in the rough from Belgium, where they were pattern welded by many specialzed smithes in villages around Liege. Rough damascus barrels were marked by the smithes as to pattern, as the figuring only becomes visible on finishing.


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: hold for me [Re: tinker]
      #247516 - 18/05/14 03:45 AM

with a serial number over 20000 in 1912-1914 it fits excellent in my own theory that Teschner Collath had the most productive time between 1894 and 1914. this were very optimistic twenty years of the biggest boom the world have seen till then. something that is forgotten because of the great war now.

to bad its not a 6,5x70R anymore, I like the pencil cartridge because its a little bit strange. the 7x72R was not realy a big improvement or is it possible to load this cartridge legal for big game under the german hunting law?
its allways astonishing how many Tesco Drillings you see, probably more than guns. it could not be only guns were scrapped so they must have made a lot of Drillings before the war



Quote:

A couple strikes on the magtech thin brass rim will allow it to headspace properly.




think I will stay with paper shells, 400 are more than enough and I have more once fired paper and plastic shells on stock. to be honest I have used plastic shells with BP in the past also for old guns.
its true that I hate this stuff but with truck loads on my clay target range its hard to resist.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (18/05/14 04:57 AM)


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lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: hold for me [Re: lancaster]
      #247517 - 18/05/14 05:12 AM

nice drilling in 16/70 and 9,3x80R http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=4951002

WARNING when ever you read 12 ga or 16 ga its probably a No.1 or No.4
16/70 looks like the gun was rechambered some times

serial number 15998


































--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (18/05/14 05:12 AM)


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