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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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4seventyModerator
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Manchester Whitworths
      #55789 - 26/04/06 10:48 AM

Some here will know that for a while now I have been looking into the origins of the Whitworth Express Rifles.
Much has been said here and on other forums regarding what features prove whether a Whitworth was assembled in England or somewhere else.

Ok, what I've learned will drop a huge bomb on much of what has been said in the past regarding Manchester built Whitworths!
I have known about this for quite some time now but have refrained from posting the details as I can tell you it will truely upset the apple cart if I do.

So I'll let you guys decide weather you really want to know the facts on this.
Many will be in for a shock!
What should I do?
To post or not to post, it's your call.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55791 - 26/04/06 11:04 AM

For the sake of heaven post it. Ignorance is a deplorable state.

Curl



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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Raff
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55795 - 26/04/06 11:56 AM

Post it!

Raff

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luv2safari
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55803 - 26/04/06 01:25 PM

We all knew you were just a tease...

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tinker
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55804 - 26/04/06 01:49 PM

Drop the hammer!


--Tinker

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k80
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: tinker]
      #55806 - 26/04/06 02:12 PM

Do it. It wont effect the way
mine shoots.


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luv2safari
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55809 - 26/04/06 02:49 PM

The barreled actions were all East European made, and just dropped into stocks in Manchester...???

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mikeh416RigbyAdministrator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55819 - 26/04/06 05:56 PM

Fill us in with the details, please.

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DoubleD
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #55823 - 26/04/06 08:20 PM

You mean the Zastava's made in Yugoslavia? Good guns! Didn't you know?

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Charles_Helm
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55835 - 27/04/06 02:02 AM

Seems pointless to gather the info only for your own amusement. Post away.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55837 - 27/04/06 02:25 AM

Quite coy, quite coy, quite coy. . .

I don't even own a Whitworth and never have, but I'm waiting with great anticipation to see this secret revealed.

So far nobody has asked you to keep your secret!

Sounds like palace intrigue. . .

By the way, Al, I still vividly remember the thread in which you unequivocally stated you were through with bolts and from henceforth would only use double rifles. I'll dig that thread up if you don't come clean on this secret!!!

I might just dig it up anyway. It's been in the back of my mind lately. I feel there should be strict enforcement of such solemn vows.

Regards,
Curl




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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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4seventyModerator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: CptCurl]
      #55871 - 27/04/06 09:12 AM

In reply to:

By the way, Al, I still vividly remember the thread in which you unequivocally stated you were through with bolts and from henceforth would only use double rifles. I'll dig that thread up if you don't come clean on this secret!!!

I might just dig it up anyway. It's been in the back of my mind lately. I feel there should be strict enforcement of such solemn vows.






Yes yes ok all right then.
Actually I have been true to my word and have only be using doubles up to this point anyway.
The Whitworth I bought remains unfired for now but that will change as soon as I can mount up a Lo Swing and Leupold.
Sometimes in my job I require a scoped big bore and while I own a couple of big doubles neither are scoped and it would not be a simple matter to change that.
Curl,
You know I'm still crazy for doubles and I don't think that will ever change but the easiest way to a scoped big bore for me is the Whitworth-Lo Swing-Leupold combo.

I seem to recall another doubles member getting sidetracked by a Farky a little while back!!

OK Whitworth story coming in the next day or so.
Gotta go to work now.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55878 - 27/04/06 11:37 AM

Well the Farky went back, but I guess you kept the Whitworth Yugoslavian Mauser (pretending to be quite British, you know).

"Back in 2000 I made a decision to try and continue my shooting by using double rifles only, and to gradually sell off my bolt action rifles."

By the way, I found that thread where you swore them off. Don't know whether to put it back to the forum now or hold it in reserve. I think I'll wait and see.

"I've just bought another double which I'd been trying to track down for about 10 years or so and now that I have it I have doubles in suitable calibers to handle all my shooting needs, I hope!"

How can we be sure you have been true to your word? I'll bet you have shot that Whitworth Yoooooooooogo booooolt guuuun!!!!! Maybe even shot it at gaaaaaame!!!

"A bolt rifle is usually much easier and less time consuming to strip, clean and oil than a double.
Anyway I have found a way of overcoming these issues and am looking forward to giving total commitment to my doubles!"

Repeat after me, "I will not back-slide."

Cheers,
Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bulldog563
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55968 - 28/04/06 11:24 AM

Come on.... Lets hear it!

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4seventyModerator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: bulldog563]
      #55976 - 28/04/06 12:51 PM

Ok.
First off, regarding which was made where, I am not trying to suggest that one Whitworth Express Rifle is better than the other.
The reason for posting is merely to try and provide a very easy way to determine whether a Whit was put together in Britain or not.

If a Whitworth Express Rifle has the following.......

1...Whitworth banner on top of front receiver
2...Second recoil lug attached to barrel
3...Front and rear sights attached with screws
4...Serial No in the 200,000 up range
5...Rear bridge date stamp RH side in the 80's ie xx8x
6...V with a what looks like a crown above it on RH side of action and barrel

..........there is a good chance that it was NOT assembled in England!

**********************************************************

If on the other hand a Whitworth Express Rifle has....

1...Nothing on top of front receiver
2...No second recoil lug
3...Front and rear sights attached by SOLDERING
4...Serial No in the 100,000 range
5...Rear bridge date stamp RH side in the 70's ie xx7x

There is a good chance that it WAS assembled in England!

***********************************************************

So how do you tell for sure?
Easy, a Whitworth Express rifle put together in pommieland will have to have been proofed there and will be stamped accordingly.
It is often said that the so called Crown over V stamp shown on some of these rifles is an English proof mark and that this shows the rifle to have been put tgether in Britain.
This is NOT correct.
That Crown over V, if that's what it actually is, does not in any way prove that a rifle has undergone proofing in Britain.
Also that "CROWN" on many Whitworth rifles is so poorly stamped that it often appears more like a 5 pointed star than a crown making it a possible star over V.
Crown or star, it doesn't matter, that type of stamp is NOWHERE near what the true British proof stampings should look like on a rifle put together there.

Here is what the proof stampings should look like, or be very similar to, according to the British Proof Laws at that time.

First, the stamp of the proof house involved will be shown ,and to date all Pommie built Whitworth Express Rifle stampings I've seen were done at Birmingham.

Second, the cartridge chambering will be identified along with a pressure rating in Tons per square inch.

Therefore a Manchester Whitworth Express in, for example .458 Win Mag will show.



CROWN over BNP on both barrel and action
and
.458" 2.50"
19.5 TONS PER Square inch.
Note that the word "square" is not written but instead represented by a four sided "box", and 'inch' is shown as ".
Note 2 The cartridge and pressure stampings on many Whitworth Express rifles are located on the underside of the barrel and require the removal of the stock to be seen.



So there are the basics on identifying a Whitworth that has had some sort of assembly in Britain.

A Whitworth Express Rifle which does not show the complete set of proof stampings as listed above has NOT BEEN PROOFED in England and therefore cannot have been put together there.

Most Whitworth Expresses I have seen offered for sale on the net are NOT Manchester rifles.

I could write many pages on these rifles and their differences, but this will do for a starter anyway.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #55977 - 28/04/06 01:04 PM

Ok Al, now that you have finally sorted this out, do I get to take Mickey's .369 Purdey home with me? That's all I really care about right now. Can't think of anything else.

Regards,

Curl



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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DUGABOY1
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #56027 - 29/04/06 04:43 AM

4seventy assuming everything you posted is true, and I have no way of knowing it isn't, I have just one question, I would like you to answer! Why are all my Whtiworth rifles stamped " Whitworth, Manchester, England", and the marks on the barrel and action are indeed a crown over "V" ? The reason I ask this question is, the USA has a rule in the import law that requires products imported into the USA, have the country of origin perminantly affixed to the product. In the case of the Whitworth, the CZ is affixed to the action, along with the Whitworth, Manchester address, and the importer Interarms. The other rifles imported by interarms only have the CZ, and the importers marks on them. To me, this follows the import laws for the USA, but I can't say for other countries.

PS: On page 193 of 13th addtion of GUN TRADER'S GUIDE in regard to the

[b"]WHITWORTH EXPRESS RIFLE,AFRICAN SERIES .........................$450

Mauser-type bolt action. Calibers: 375 H&H Mag, 458 Win Mag, three shot magazine, 24 inch barrel. Weight: about 8 pounds. 3-leaf express open rear sight,ramp front sight with hood. English-style stock of European walnut,with cheekpiece, black foreend tip, checkered pistol grip, and forearm, recoil pad, QD swivels. Made from 1974 to date, by Whitworth Rifle Co., England."


On page 192 of this same book, regarding all the other Zastava actioned rifles imported by Interarms: The following Mark X rifles are manufactured by ZAVODI CRVENA ZASTAVA, ( CZ) Belgrade, Ugoslavia!

The Mark X Alaskan 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag

The Mark X sporting rifle 22-250, 243, 25-06, 270, 7x57, 7mm RM, 308 Win, 30-06,and 300 Win Mag.

The Mark X Cavalier....Same as above

The Mark X Continental Mannkicher carbine 270,7x57, 308, 30-06

The Mark X Marquis Mannlicher carbine

The Interarms Mark X Viscount

The whitworth issue is one that sorely needs verification, and it is welcome, no matter how it turns out, as long as there is some backing for the data!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #56047 - 29/04/06 06:24 PM

Mac,
None of those things you mention provide any proof that the rifle was put together in Britain.

The proof is in the proofs!

If the rifle does not have a full set of correct British proof marks then it is highly unlikely that it was ever put together in Manchester.

The true Manchester Whitworths do have those correct proofs.

Crown over V could have been put there by anyone.
The poms have not used that mark for a long time.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #56053 - 29/04/06 09:05 PM

The London "view" mark, crown over V, was obsoleted under the 1954 rules of proof, which were effective 2/1/55.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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4seventyModerator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #56055 - 29/04/06 09:31 PM

That is true, and the Whitworth Express rifles didn't appear until almost 20 years after that date.

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k80
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #56086 - 30/04/06 12:03 PM

My rifle marked CZ,Manchester, Interarms
is marked with a date code of 0175. It is
not marked Mark X, or Witworth, only a
Interarms plastic but plate.
The proof marks are a 5 point star over
N, rTb, and one I can not make out in an
oval. I could find no others.
The tang of the receiver is plainly marked
on the left hand side under the stock
made in Yugoslavia. The only mark on
the barrel is 30-06.
The rifle is a FN copy that is well fit, with
a great outside finish for the price range,
nice wood, and shoots good. What more
could you ask for?
Except it for what it is.



--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #56119 - 01/05/06 02:11 AM

To be moved to the Mauser discussion forums soon.

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4seventyModerator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #56401 - 04/05/06 06:58 PM

In reply to:

The whitworth issue is one that sorely needs verification, and it is welcome, no matter how it turns out, as long as there is some backing for the data!




Very true.

The "data" is VERY clearly backed up, in that it was put there by the Birmingham Proof House, on all true Manchester Whitworth Express rifles!

It's a bit like a poker hand, a FULL SET of authentic proof marks beats a crown (or star) over V anytime.



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mikeh416RigbyAdministrator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: 4seventy]
      #56545 - 06/05/06 11:36 PM

Alan, thanks for the great information. You really did your homework on this. As you said, the proof is in the proofs.

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4seventyModerator
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Re: Manchester Whitworths [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #57585 - 22/05/06 11:12 PM

There is an "unfired" .375 H&H Whitworth Express for sale at Champlins at the moment for anyone wanting one.
A very late production rifle with three hundred thousand serial number, cross pin type floorplate release, front swivel in the wood, screwed on sight base, Whitworth banner on receiver, etc.
I doubt though, that anyone will find many true British proofs on that one!


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