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NitroXAdministrator
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Which .416 For Africa?
      #369693 - 01/10/22 02:32 AM

Which .416 For Africa?

Updated: Jun 12, 2020


https://www.bullet-behavior.com/amp/which-416-for-africa

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Ripp
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: NitroX]
      #369703 - 01/10/22 11:32 AM

There are more than the 416 Rem?? When did that happen??

I know Rigby is the kingpin here..BUT as I stated on FB, I have taken a lot of game with the Rem..IF I go back it will be that caliber again..

IMHO, it outperforms both the 375H&H and 458Win Mag..

Nearly as flat and more penetration.. much better ko value than the 375.. per my experience..

375H&H is a very good caliber no doubt..but, does better in my mind as a plains game caliber to use when hunting in DG country such as Zim or Cameroon.

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DarylS
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Ripp]
      #369704 - 01/10/22 12:08 PM

.416 Taylor, .416 Rem., .416 Rigby, .416 Ruger.
For me, it would be the Taylor or Rem., I think.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: DarylS]
      #369711 - 01/10/22 04:08 PM

I only skimmed the article.

I wanted a Chatfield-Taylor .416 once upon a time in a takedown Winchester M70. Along with 7 mm RembMag and .338 Win Mag barrels.

Was going to get Brian Harre of NZ to make it for me. An outfitter whonwas getting into gunmzking. Later made Mauser 98 actions.

Ot interested in modern pretenders. Only the .416 Rigby if a bolt action.

But I would go for a .500/416 Nitro Express or a .416 Rigby No.2 Rimmed. The criteria would be which has the longevity. Which would have supplies? .500 brass could be used for the .500/416. And which has more street appeal?

Unless a lotto win happens, no rising b bite side by side. But a Valet/Tikka U/O set of DR barrels might be possible. Self regulation barrels and qd scope or qd red dot!

A 450 gr .416 at say 2100 to 2200 fps? Penetrate and results similar to a .458 480 gr.

No need for any .416 bolt action if one already has a .404 Jeffery. Even more traditional.

I didn't read the article. All of them do the same job. All will have the same results at the animal end. It just depends on whether one likes classic traditional choices or likes the flash new pretender wannabe copies!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Ripp]
      #369712 - 01/10/22 04:23 PM

Quote:



375H&H is a very good caliber no doubt..but, does better in my mind as a plains game caliber to use when hunting in DG country such as Zim or Cameroon.




Untold thousands of safari hunters experience probably disagrees.

As for the .416 being an all-rounder including on plains game, I wonder how the average safari client fares on accurate plains game with .416 recoil? Clients bragging expert tales are often are far different from their PHs experience with the same. Those missed kudu at 30 yards evaporate! I think the recoil of a .416 for plains game shots is too much for the average whitetail stand hunter. The reason the .375 shines as an all-rounder. Recoil is still stout but milder. As for buffalo, guys like Harry Manners shot thousands of buffalo with a .375 in Mozambique. For close thick cover hunting I'd turn to a .450 or bigger in a double rifle anyway.

They all do the job. Only the law prevents the good old buffalo killing .318 WR also being used.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Rule303
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: NitroX]
      #369750 - 02/10/22 09:55 AM

All in all, I think a good article fairly written. I do agree that if Rem had of loaded to Rigby performance or slightly under the 416 Rem would be more widely used in Africa and could certainly be used in a slimer rifle than the Rigby requires. That is to get 4 or 5 in a double stack mag.

The main reasons I went with the 416 Rigby were, Cartridge availability in Africa, more so than the 416 Rem. I could get an affordable - for me - rifle which I could not with the 404J.

To me the Rigby has a fair bit of recoil and the Rem a bit less. If you can handle the recoil, there is no reason either can not be used to 400 mts on plains game if the shooter is capable.

The 416 Ruger ran into overpressure issues when it first can out, this because they were trying to match Rigby performance. Turns out if your happy with 2250 fps and not 2400 fps then the Ruger is fine and from what I can tell by reading the 2250fps MV does the job very well.


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DarylS
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Rule303]
      #369753 - 02/10/22 10:19 AM

Interesting about the pressures.
John Whooters got 2,400fps with IMR4320 in his .416 Taylor with 400gr. Colorado Custom copper/lead bullets(I think) & a nice Zim. buffalo.
A Barnes TSX in 350gr. would do the trick today and easily get 2,400fps or more, seems to me.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: NitroX]
      #369760 - 02/10/22 11:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:



375H&H is a very good caliber no doubt..but, does better in my mind as a plains game caliber to use when hunting in DG country such as Zim or Cameroon.




Untold thousands of safari hunters experience probably disagrees.

As for the .416 being an all-rounder including on plains game, I wonder how the average safari client fares on accurate plains game with .416 recoil? Clients bragging expert tales are often are far different from their PHs experience with the same. Those missed kudu at 30 yards evaporate! I think the recoil of a .416 for plains game shots is too much for the average whitetail stand hunter. The reason the .375 shines as an all-rounder. Recoil is still stout but milder. As for buffalo, guys like Harry Manners shot thousands of buffalo with a .375 in Mozambique. For close thick cover hunting I'd turn to a .450 or bigger in a double rifle anyway.

They all do the job. Only the law prevents the good old buffalo killing .318 WR also being used.




I am not saying the 375 doesnt work..I AM saying the 416 does it considerably better. Per my experience on buffalo and other large game.

My first trip to Zim, my plains game rifle was a 300 RUM, the 180 Accubonds were blowing up on game, so ..for the next 20 days all I used was my 416 from Duiker to buffalo, it worked perfectly..used 400gr A-Frames..roughly2400fps.. same for solids, 400gr Barnes Solids.. Shot game from 50 yards to 265 (bushbuck)..

I really don't find the recoil of my 416 Rem to be bad at all.. 375 is certainly less, but I stand by my statement that in my experience .375 makes a perfect PG rifle in DG areas.. Your going to wish you had a 375 vs a .270 in your hand when you get charged by a tunskless in the dark sneaking into a blind.. YES, that did happen..Twice.. not both tuskless..

The 375 killed everything I shot while in Cameroon.. However the effect on game when getting hit with a 416 vs 375 is visible to the naked eye.. I've taken a min of 50 head of game with my 416. Not a ton but enough to see a trend forming. If it doesnt drop immediately, its very quickly thereafter.. My experience from PG to ele to cape buffalo...




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458Win
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Ripp]
      #369826 - 04/10/22 03:18 PM

Hornady Factory loads for the 416 Ruger match the original 416 Rigby ballistics and seriously beat the original 450/400 and 404 Jeffery rounds. All of which earned Sterling reputations !

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Rule303
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: 458Win]
      #369828 - 04/10/22 08:10 PM

Quote:

Hornady Factory loads for the 416 Ruger match the original 416 Rigby ballistics and seriously beat the original 450/400 and 404 Jeffery rounds. All of which earned Sterling reputations !




And they had over pressure problems with that load. When reduced to 2250fps MV they had a good reliable product. Mind you, some say the original 416 Rigby loads may well have been around the 2200 to 2300 fps MV.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: 458Win]
      #369829 - 04/10/22 08:33 PM

Quote:

Hornady Factory loads for the 416 Ruger match the original 416 Rigby ballistics and seriously beat the original 450/400 and 404 Jeffery rounds. All of which earned Sterling reputations !




The original 450/400 was 2050 fps I think with a 400 gr. The original .404 was about 2150 fps or there abouts. Seemed acceptable back in the day.

Now the .404 reaches 2300 to 2400 fps.

All these cartridges have very similar performance. From 2100 to 2400 fps and even up to 2600 fps I believe with 400 gr bullets.

Myself 2350 fps plus or minus is fine.

What speeds are people getting with 450 gr projectiles, .416 or .423?

--------------------
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Ripp
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: 458Win]
      #369844 - 05/10/22 01:39 AM

Quote:

Hornady Factory loads for the 416 Ruger match the original 416 Rigby ballistics and seriously beat the original 450/400 and 404 Jeffery rounds. All of which earned Sterling reputations !




I always felt the original Ruger rifle that was produced in this caliber would have made a very good rifle for Alaska.. Hogue stock so moisture not an issue and a very good caliber for whatever you might bump into..

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93x64mm
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Ripp]
      #369855 - 05/10/22 07:29 AM

Hornady specify 2050fps for the 450/400 on their ammo box, chronographed at 1940fps in my 24" barrel, far short of that specified! (Unless they use a 28" test barrel?)
Only loaded Woodleigh's so far & these only to about 2010fps using 66gn of R15 seem to be the best compromise in my rifle.
This load would be ball park to what a load was 100 years ago in the 3" version, FAR short of the advertised loads - guess nothing has changed in 100+ years in the gun industry!
As to comparing this Savana queen to a modern .416 Rem load, it's well & truly left behind ballistically!
As to which one to take, it wouldn't really matter - all can do the job, I just wish I could get there!


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Ripp
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: NitroX]
      #369856 - 05/10/22 08:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hornady Factory loads for the 416 Ruger match the original 416 Rigby ballistics and seriously beat the original 450/400 and 404 Jeffery rounds. All of which earned Sterling reputations !




The original 450/400 was 2050 fps I think with a 400 gr. The original .404 was about 2150 fps or there abouts. Seemed acceptable back in the day.

Now the .404 reaches 2300 to 2400 fps.

All these cartridges have very similar performance. From 2100 to 2400 fps and even up to 2600 fps I believe with 400 gr bullets.

Myself 2350 fps plus or minus is fine.

What speeds are people getting with 450 gr projectiles, .416 or .423?




I never loaded 450's..only 400's ..never saw a need for it..my 400's were right at 2400- when chrono'd.. like 2412--2420.. Primers all looked good at that speed..no excessive pressures..

At that, the A-Frames blew through a big buff bull and killed another bull also on his off side.. it was a two for one Tuesday in Zimbabwe..

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Rule303
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Ripp]
      #369858 - 05/10/22 08:43 AM

Yes, as basically said by all, whatever the actual muzzle velocities were of these great calibre's they performed well. I would not knock any of them back. Ripp, I agree about the 416 Ruger for Alaska, also for hunting in any thick country in Africa.

I should add the original problems with the 416 Ruger were due to attempting to get the 2400fps in their short barrel guide gun not in a 24 to 26-inch barrel.


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DarylS
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Rule303]
      #369883 - 06/10/22 03:03 AM

I cannot "see" a carbine in that calibre. Rifles have 24" to 26" bls. to me.

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Daryl


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Ripp
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: DarylS]
      #369889 - 06/10/22 07:25 AM

Quote:

I cannot "see" a carbine in that calibre. Rifles have 24" to 26" bls. to me.




NOT in todays world it seems..

I hop on a lot of different gun manufacturers websites --not uncommon to see 20 and 22 " barels being the max length offered.. apparently with so many using a can which adds another 6-8" they become to unwieldy.. or so I was told..

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Ripp
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Ripp]
      #369890 - 06/10/22 07:27 AM

An added post from days gone by..

https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/the-gun-nuts/dangerous-game-rifles-the-roaring-forties/

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: DarylS]
      #369902 - 06/10/22 05:19 PM

Quote:

I cannot "see" a carbine in that calibre. Rifles have 24" to 26" bls. to me.




Double rifle! Shorter.

As for velocities I don't have a .416 so I just use the armchair expert knowledge method of regurgitation!

Real user actual muzzle velocity testing is usually more reliable.

Barrel length? I think a large capacity cartridge with a short barrel is a Billy silly. The cartridge should burn it's powder before the bullet exits the barrel. Use a smaller cartridge for a short barrel. Probably little loss of performance.

I think a carbine length barrel (20 inch) with a .458 Win Mag makes more sense than most .416s.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Rod4861
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: NitroX]
      #369905 - 06/10/22 05:43 PM

I’ve never been to Africa and I haven’t even hunted with this rifle. Nor, have I chronographed any loads. But I reckon she ticks all the boxes for when it comes to selecting which.416 for Africa. It just has to be the Rigby.


https://youtu.be/SDgNGQtuvsQ


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Ripp]
      #369906 - 06/10/22 05:45 PM

Quote:

An added post from days gone by..

https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/the-gun-nuts/dangerous-game-rifles-the-roaring-forties/




Ripp, What muzzle velocity do you get from your .416 Rem with a 400 gr bullet?

General comments:
I note this article claims the same muzzle velocity for both the larger Rigby case as the smaller Remington case? Unlikely imo and not per most velocity claims. I thought it was the Rigby 2400 fps and the Rem 2200 to 2300 fps? Not much difference in field terms of course.

If the .416 Rem Mag uses a 8mm Rem Mag case which I thought was a magnum length case? Why then can a .416 Rem Mag, I believe, be made in a standard length action? Correct or incorrect? Maybe I am thinking of the .416 Chatfield-Taylor?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: NitroX]
      #369907 - 06/10/22 05:48 PM

Quote:



Ripp, What muzzle velocity do you get from your .416 Rem with a 400 gr bullet?






I see your earlier post:

Quote:

I never loaded 450's..only 400's ..never saw a need for it..my 400's were right at 2400- when chrono'd.. like 2412--2420.. Primers all looked good at that speed..no excessive pressures..





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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Ripp]
      #369908 - 06/10/22 06:00 PM

Quote:



I never loaded 450's..only 400's ..never saw a need for it..my 400's were right at 2400- when chrono'd.. like 2412--2420.. Primers all looked good at that speed..no excessive pressures..

At that, the A-Frames blew through a big buff bull and killed another bull also on his off side.. it was a two for one Tuesday in Zimbabwe..




More weight over the calibre plus bullet construction equals better penetration.

I like the idea of a matching 450 gr .423 SPRN and FMJ. For buffalo and especially elephant i.e. the FMJ.

I have to check the sectional densities of the 450 gr .423 versus the .458 480 gr or 500 gr. To see how they compare.

I hope I have some Woodleigh .422 450 grs. I bought a box load of bullets. Some of my order was supplied some wasnt. I never checked which were and which weren't. The order came through the SA BGRC and David Handyside as the dealer. Before the fire obviously! Of course now I wish I had never culled my order twice for $$$ reasons!!!

If the 450 gr can't reach say 2000 fps to preferably 2100 fps, maybe I'd stick with the 400 grs which should work very well anyway.

250 gr to 450 gr bullet range, very versatile.

--------------------
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: Rod4861]
      #369911 - 06/10/22 06:11 PM

Quote:

I’ve never been to Africa and I haven’t even hunted with this rifle. Nor, have I chronographed any loads. But I reckon she ticks all the boxes for when it comes to selecting which.416 for Africa. It just has to be the Rigby.


https://youtu.be/SDgNGQtuvsQ






--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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kuduae
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Re: Which .416 For Africa? [Re: NitroX]
      #369918 - 06/10/22 09:23 PM

Quote:

Hornady specify 2050fps for the 450/400 on their ammo box, chronographed at 1940fps in my 24" barrel, far short of that specified! (Unless they use a 28” test barrel



Go to the Kynamco website http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/cartridge%20collection.html
David Little loads the “modern Kynoch” cartridges to the original specifications, even using the original test barrels. They list all loads with the test barrel lengths.
.450/400 3 ¼”: 400 gr bullet at 2150 fps from a 26” test barrel
.450/400 3”: 400 gr bullet at 2125 fps from a 30”! test barrel
.404: 400 gr bullet at 2125 fps from a 28”! test barrel
.416 Rigby: 410 gr bullet at 2300 fps from a 26” test barrel
Don’t expect to get these advertised velocities from your real hunting rifle with a 22 – 24” barrel.


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