Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
      #373331 - 20/01/23 11:20 PM

Easily explained by rifle makers using 30 inch barrels in test rifles.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
      #373343 - 21/01/23 05:11 AM

Quote:

It is interesting the Rigby literature claim of 3000'/sec for their .275HV in the Rigby Mauser Model #2 rifle. Perhaps a bit of "artistic license" as to the claimed muzzle velocity?

Other sources like John Taylor give a speed of 2750'/sec and Cartridges of the World attributed 2800'/sec.

Certainly the average hunter/shooter back in the day did not have access to any kind of chronograph, but hey, catalog speed sounded good and maybe led to spirited campfire debate?

One of these days I may be lucky enough to come across a vintage box of Kynoch .275 HV ammo and I will certainly sacrifice 3 rounds to my LabRadar chronograph and my original 1936 Rigby "Sighted For High Velocity .275 Bore Cartridge" rifle.

Personally, given the powders available in the 1920's & 1930's, I'm betting closer to the 2750-2800 number…..

- Mike




Or even slightly lower, 2,700fps to 2,750fps tops.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1412
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #373344 - 21/01/23 05:32 AM

Quote:

Easily explained by rifle makers using 30 inch barrels in test rifles.



I think Mauser possibly used 28" test barrels (~71 centimeters), Brits certainly used 30" sometimes more, not that it makes a great deal of difference.
Perhaps kuduae will pop in and give a definitive answer?

At any rate my 1936 Rigby Mauser has an action that is Mauser serial number #1123 from 1899 production so I'm not inclined to experiment with trying to attain the "advertised" 3000'/sec.
Shoots "to the sights" at ~2775'-2800'/sec with 140 grain Nosler Partition's. (or close enough with the iron sights and my old eyes)
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1412
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #373345 - 21/01/23 05:37 AM

Quote:

Easily explained by rifle makers using 30 inch barrels in test rifles.



I think Mauser possibly used 28" test barrels (~71 centimeters), Brits certainly used 30" sometimes more, not that it makes a great deal of difference.
Perhaps kuduae will pop in and give a definitive answer?

At any rate my 1936 Rigby Mauser has an action that is Mauser serial number #1123 from 1899 production so I'm not inclined to experiment with trying to attain the "advertised" 3000'/sec.
Shoots "to the sights" at ~2775'-2800'/sec with 140 grain Nosler Partition's. (or close enough with the iron sights and my tired eyes)
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
      #373379 - 21/01/23 08:37 PM

Personally I'm not a velocity fanatic. Most of my handholds, I picked for accuracy not the highest velocity. Usually the sweet spot is achieved several loads before too high pressure starts to appear.

I wonder if some handloaders sacrifice accuracy for higher velocities.

If one wanted great velocity, different choices than a 7x57, 7x64 etc. A 7 mm STW perhaps? I believe there is a 7mm Nosler?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1770
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #373380 - 21/01/23 11:36 PM

As 3DogMike asked for it:
Rigby indeed advertised the 3000 fps muzzle velocity of their 140 gr load in the early 1900s. At that time the “measuring” of bullet velocities was still in it’s infancy. Up to after WW2 there were no electronical devices, only mechanical ones. The gold standard was the Le Boulenge’s falling rod apparatus, but even that required a lot of guesswork and was very expensive. The readout was for an average over longer, more than 10 meter distances only and required calculations for the velocity at the muzzle. So cataloged velocities were usually guessed at and rounded up.
As Rigby had their cartridges loaded by Kynoch, a look at the Kynoch tables may help. In their 1925 catalog Kynoch listed the 7 mm (.276) Mauser Rifle 140 gr pointed bullet load with 43 gr smokeless at 2800 fps, no barrel length given.
An undated ca. 1930 ICI/Kynoch catalog gives these loads:
.275 Rimless (Rigby): 140 gr bullet, 43 gr. N.C., 2750 fps from 28” barrel, pressure 18 tons/sq.in.
7 mm (.276) Mauser: 140 gr bullet, 48 gr. N.C., 2900 fps from 29“ barrel, 18.5 tons/sq.in.
7 mm Rigby Magnum: 140 gr bullet, 40 gr N.C., 2675 fps from 29.5” barrel, 17 tons/sq.in. (maybe Rigby’s rimmed version?)
The .275 Rigby is listed with a lower velocity and pressure than the 7x57 Mauser. A bit confusing, but it matches the now CIP maximum pressures, 3900 bar for the 7x57 and only 3200 bar for the .275 H.V. Rigby.
Comparable German 1930s 7x57 loads were:
DWM: 139 gr bullet, 49 gr R2 powder, 2697 fps, 2800 atm, 26” barrel
RWS: 139 gr bullet, 49.5 gr R2, 2776 fps, 2850 atm pressure, 26” barrel
So the .275 Rigby 140 gr “High Velocity” load is a far cry from a “hot loaded 7x57”. I would expect 2600 to 2700 fps from a 24” barrel.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
      #373383 - 22/01/23 01:45 AM

maybe kynoch download the .275 rigby for the use in hot climate

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #373384 - 22/01/23 01:47 AM

Quote:

Personally I'm not a velocity fanatic. Most of my handholds, I picked for accuracy not the highest velocity. Usually the sweet spot is achieved several loads before too high pressure starts to appear.

I wonder if some handloaders sacrifice accuracy for higher velocities.

If one wanted great velocity, different choices than a 7x57, 7x64 etc. A 7 mm STW perhaps? I believe there is a 7mm Nosler?




classic would be 7 mm SE vom Hofe

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1412
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #373385 - 22/01/23 02:16 AM

kuduae,
Exactly what I was looking for. Many thanks for posting the info.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1770
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
      #373386 - 22/01/23 02:54 AM

Quote:

classic would be 7 mm SE vom Hofe



Another cartridge that never achieved the ballistics advertised by the inventor, 170 gr at 3294 fps, from any existing rifle barrel when shot over a modern chronograph. 2950 fps from a 26” barrel was the maximum achieved by the DEVA with pressure tested handloads.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
      #373387 - 22/01/23 06:16 AM

because they don't had the original 5780 mm long test barrel

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #373394 - 22/01/23 08:42 AM

My 22" #1 7x57 ran the 140's at 2,940fps and shot 1/2" at 100 meters. 3 shot groups. The 4th shot would run an inch higher than the 'group', usually.
My 23.4" BRNO 7x57 ran 160gr. TSX's at 2,700fps, just over 1/2" for 3 shot groups at 100 meters. It was also quite consistent.
Just saying.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1770
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #373410 - 22/01/23 11:46 PM

Quote:

because they don't had the original 5780 mm long test barrel



The DEVA has and used the original 26" DWM test barrel Gehmann used when he developed his proprietary cartridge and loads in the 1950s. When they checked a recent 7x66 SE factory load (post-DWM, 1980s) supplied by Gehmann (owner of the vom Hofe trademark), they got merely 3068 fps instead of the 3445 fps advertised by Gehmann on the package label. Pressure was just a modest 3050 bar instead of the CIP maximum 4400 bar.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: kuduae]
      #373414 - 23/01/23 04:59 AM

5,780mm - yeah - funny. 19 feet(rounded)

4,400 bar or 63,817psi - more of a modern pressure limit.
3050 bar, or 44,237 psi is quite low and explains the low vel.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: lancaster]
      #373416 - 23/01/23 05:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Personally I'm not a velocity fanatic. Most of my handholds, I picked for accuracy not the highest velocity. Usually the sweet spot is achieved several loads before too high pressure starts to appear.

I wonder if some handloaders sacrifice accuracy for higher velocities.

If one wanted great velocity, different choices than a 7x57, 7x64 etc. A 7 mm STW perhaps? I believe there is a 7mm Nosler?




classic would be 7 mm SE vom Hofe




I agree 100%.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1412
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #373491 - 26/01/23 12:49 PM

Right then; for those of you that are interested, my restoration gunsmith/importer/good friend Steve Bertram www.bertramandco.com has come up with some original ".275 Bore Rigby Special High Velocity Rifle" cartridges.
When I get out of our "deep freeze' Winter here I will take my .275 Rigby Mauser out and test fire 3 shots over the LabRadar to tentatively settle the question of no kidding ".275 HV for Rigby" muzzle velocity in real life.

As soon as this is done I will certainly post the results.

Who wants to go in on a betting Calcutta as to actual average muzzle velocity? (just kidding, too hard to deliver a bottle of Single Malt to the winner)

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
      #373492 - 26/01/23 02:20 PM

Very well Mike

I look forward to the field report

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
      #373495 - 26/01/23 04:29 PM

Quote:

Right then; for those of you that are interested, my restoration gunsmith/importer/good friend Steve Bertram www.bertramandco.com has come up with some original ".275 Bore Rigby Special High Velocity Rifle" cartridges.
When I get out of our "deep freeze' Winter here I will take my .275 Rigby Mauser out and test fire 3 shots over the LabRadar to tentatively settle the question of no kidding ".275 HV for Rigby" muzzle velocity in real life.

As soon as this is done I will certainly post the results.

Who wants to go in on a betting Calcutta as to actual average muzzle velocity? (just kidding, too hard to deliver a bottle of Single Malt to the winner)

- Mike




My guess is a conservative 2650 fps MV. Before checking Kuduae's post above. After checking I see I am right on the the middle of an expected velocity range.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: NitroX]
      #373497 - 26/01/23 06:40 PM

Not sure a session with the chronograph will take into account a century of deterioration of those early powders, and the associated drop in velocity, but still an interesting exercise for sure.

I'll guess 2725 fps, just to pick a number!
...provided you warm them up under your armpit first, Mike!

Pretty sure my local bottle-shop will take your credit-card over the phone, too.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1412
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Marrakai]
      #373507 - 27/01/23 03:23 AM

Quote:

Not sure a session with the chronograph will take into account a century of deterioration of those early powders, and the associated drop in velocity, but still an interesting exercise for sure.

I'll guess 2725 fps, just to pick a number!
...provided you warm them up under your armpit first, Mike!

Pretty sure my local bottle-shop will take your credit-card over the phone, too.



Hi Tony,
Armpit eh? Considering it is -18°C this AM I believe that might get my attention!

As to the age of the ammo; yes, age could be a factor. “If” the box still has the Kynoch date code I will be able to narrow that down.
Since I have fired US made .30-06 from WWII and Korea era with normally expected results, I’m hoping the same if the ammo is later production.

Interesting experiment at any rate.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: 3DogMike]
      #373508 - 27/01/23 05:18 AM

Yes indeed, interesting "test".
2,695fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
eagle27
.400 member


Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1123
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: DarylS]
      #373509 - 27/01/23 08:18 AM

Yes would be interesting to date the Kynoch cartridges if the box is with them or Steve still has the original box.
Need both the date code and also if manufactured by ICI (Imperial Chemical Industries) or IMI (Imperial Metal Industries). Kynoch repeated their dating codes and knowing if ICI or IMI can narrow down to which dating period the codes apply. Information on the front of the box such as if loaded with cordite or nitrocellulose also helps identify if earlier or later loaded ammo.

I'm not going to hazard a guess at the velocity other than definitely under 3000fps, I'll wait for the proven results.

Info needed as in example below.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1808
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #373518 - 27/01/23 04:58 PM

Quote:



There is no mention of .275 Rigby in any of their catalogs - or by anyone else. The earliest reference is from an American gun writer in 1970.







Stoeger Catalog, 1939:




Full page image:



--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1808
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: sharps4590]
      #373520 - 27/01/23 05:05 PM

Quote:

It's more accurate than using "caliber" for "cartridge."




Absolutely.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39201
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: The .275 Rigby is a Fantasy Cartridge [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #373525 - 27/01/23 08:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:



There is no mention of .275 Rigby in any of their catalogs - or by anyone else. The earliest reference is from an American gun writer in 1970.







Stoeger Catalog, 1939:




Full page image:






Excellent post and some evidence.

Bloody Americans getting it wrong! Ha ha. Joke.

But this Stoegers Catalogue of 1939 shows some evidence of where the nomenclature came from.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 42 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 8560

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved