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heers68
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G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte
      #132216 - 14/04/09 03:00 AM

Here is a little Bockbuchsflinte I own marked only "G. Wilcke Stuttgart" (ANY info or experience with this maker/seller much needed!) 16ga. over 7x57R.
Anson and Deeley action,claw mounts with B. Nickel 4x scope, Does'nt have date code on chamber,so not sure of age. ANY guesses on age and why would be appreciated!
Just a pleasure to handle with minty bores and horn all around. Love to hear comments and oppinions! Kevin.





























Edited by CptCurl (26/08/10 08:05 PM)


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450_366
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #132228 - 14/04/09 05:28 AM

Could you take some photos on the watertable and under the barrels?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: 450_366]
      #132231 - 14/04/09 05:55 AM

THANKS for looking Andreas. Here are some pics of about all the markings other than "Eagle and Nitro" on the left side of the shotgun chamber.Hard to read weakly stamped lettering on chambers is "Krupp Stahl" look forward to your response..Kevin.

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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #132232 - 14/04/09 06:00 AM

Sorry , here are pictures...



Edited by CptCurl (31/07/10 08:31 PM)


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Buchsemann
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: 450_366]
      #132237 - 14/04/09 06:23 AM

Kevin,

That is certainly a nice BBF you have there. My first guess as to the date of manufacture would be mid to late twenties but the high relief vine work (love it) immediately around the top and sides of the breech as well as the underside of the receiver has me thinking it could be earlier. The guns that I have with fluted grip caps are earlier pieces but that could be coincidence. A few more pictures per Andreas's suggestion may help to dial things in a little better for you. Nice, very nice!

Regards,

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #132238 - 14/04/09 06:34 AM

THANKS Marcus! Have you seen my new pics above? When did the BBF come out? I have some early (teens) J.P.Sauer Katalogs and they dont have any BBF's listed! How about the 7x57R,when did it emerge? Schrote chamber may have been modified previous to my having the gun but it is right at 70mm. Love to hear comments on above markings,I hope I am missing some good clue! Kevin.

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Buchsemann
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #132240 - 14/04/09 06:42 AM

Kevin,

Timing is everything. I just hit submit and your pictures showed up. I see you have those same two squares with the "K" inside that has been bugging me for a while now. Dietrich Apel of the GGCA (German Gun Collectors Association) may be featuring that stamping in one of the upcoming journals; one of those "history detectives" kind of things. I also see that it's post 1912 from the "St.m.G. 12 gr" on the barrel. Is that script inspector mark an "EF" or an "EK", I can't make it out very well?

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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450_366
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #132241 - 14/04/09 06:48 AM

See if you cant find the letters GM somewere on the action, it looks wery much like an Merkel 157. If so it would have been built between 1916-1924.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Buchsemann
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #132242 - 14/04/09 06:51 AM

Kevin,

I'm sorry to mislead you in any way by referring to your gun as a "BBF". It is in reference to your gun being a "Bockbuchsflinte". I'll stay away from acronyms. These German guns can be a piece of work when it comes to identifying marks. You have a good start by having a maker’s name. I have a lot of German gun catalogs from the day but no G. Wilcke. Are you a member of the GGCA? Some of those guys have a boatload of knowledge that can make your day at times.

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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Buchsemann
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #132245 - 14/04/09 07:04 AM

Kevin,

There is a chance that G. Wilcke was a distributor such as Eblin, also of Stuttgart. I believe I ran into another Wilcke several years back but I didn't buy it for one reason or another. Again, the GGCA may be able to help you more. Dietrich has said one of the members is pretty good with information on dealers of the day but he hasn't volunteered the gentleman's identity as yet. Send you inquiries to: jaeger@valley.net.

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #132249 - 14/04/09 07:11 AM

Marcus, No problems! I understood the "BBF" as the acronym. I just havent seen any advertised previous to the 20's.(in my small world!) I have emailed back and forth with Mr. Apel and he feels that G.Wilcke in Stuttgart was a disributer. I have an identicle down to the engraving drawing of this gun for sale in a Max Knoll 1925 katalog,but was he just another distributer? And for how many years was this gun available? I think that mark is "SK" or "EK"? I would like to know what those"k's" on the squares are too!

Andreas, I will look for that "GM" but I don't think it is there. Kevin.


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dons
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #132252 - 14/04/09 07:25 AM

My ref. book lists Max Knoll, Suhl, Thuringia as a maker of fine double 16 gauge shotguns. Unfortunately, his dates of operation are unknown.

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Buchsemann
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: dons]
      #132256 - 14/04/09 08:08 AM

Kevin,

As to the two squares with the letter "K" inside, Dietrich said he has seen them before but couldn't recall right off what he saw them on. He last said he was still digging into it. I owe him a better picture of the stamp using a white grease pencil to show them better for his "history detectives" column. Also, a fellow NE member HBO1 wrote:

"I have a mauser sporter and 12 gauge sxs with the same stamp. I have seen the stamp on half a dozen other guns and believe it is stamp for krupp barrels, although I don't have any direct evidence. All of the guns I have seen with this Krupp stamp are pre-WWI and probably pre-1912. Some of the German afficiados on doublegunshop.com might have a few more details."

That is all I have for now. I will let you know if I hear anything more.

Marcus

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #132261 - 14/04/09 08:33 AM

THANKS to all!

Andreas, Do you have a picture of or a link to a Merkel 157?? Would like to see this gun very much! Kevin.


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #132267 - 14/04/09 09:48 AM

Dons, Thought you and others here might enjoy seeing some pages of the Max Knoll Katalog with this gun in it....

Edited by CptCurl (31/07/10 08:32 PM)


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450_366
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #132283 - 14/04/09 04:40 PM

This is what i came up with, not the best but see if its similar to your gun.





--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by CptCurl (31/07/10 08:33 PM)


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: 450_366]
      #132311 - 14/04/09 10:22 PM

Andreas, I think that looks VERY similar! A&D action with same cocking indicators,and very similar look around the shot chamber. Could be the same reciever just cosmeticly altered.VERY interesting! Was thier any info as to the date of manufacture on that gun? That also looks like a 12ga.? Kevin.

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dale
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #132500 - 16/04/09 01:21 PM

Kevin,

Are you familar with the phrase, "lust in my heart" :^)


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HuviusModerator
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: dale]
      #132506 - 16/04/09 02:18 PM

What a knockout!
I am admittedly an anglophile when it comes to guns, but I could easily see a combo such as this sneaking into my collection!
Very nice.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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450_366
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #132521 - 16/04/09 05:45 PM

Quote:

Andreas, I think that looks VERY similar! A&D action with same cocking indicators,and very similar look around the shot chamber. Could be the same reciever just cosmeticly altered.VERY interesting! Was thier any info as to the date of manufacture on that gun? That also looks like a 12ga.? Kevin.




I think its a 12/9,3x72r, GM sold them between 1916-1924, but you will probably find earlyer and older that have been sold thru others. Thats the thing with German guns, if you take 1000 guns with odd names, probably 995 out of them are build by one of the merkels.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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450_366
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #132854 - 20/04/09 03:23 PM

Quote:

Kevin,

Timing is everything. I just hit submit and your pictures showed up. I see you have those same two squares with the "K" inside that has been bugging me for a while now. Dietrich Apel of the GGCA (German Gun Collectors Association) may be featuring that stamping in one of the upcoming journals; one of those "history detectives" kind of things. I also see that it's post 1912 from the "St.m.G. 12 gr" on the barrel. Is that script inspector mark an "EF" or an "EK", I can't make it out very well?

Marcus




Look if the square is actually a squared G, then it stands for Gebruder Kelber a barrelmaker from suhl.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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ellenbr
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: 450_366]
      #141966 - 13/09/09 01:29 PM

Kevin:

Have you let GGCA( www.germanguns.com ) borrow the Max Knoll Catalogue with his trademark in order to make copies? I think they offer somewhere around 10 copies for the lending.


1st let’s get Max Knoll out of the way. At some point I’m sure he was in the Journeyman program and obtained his brief with a fine example and by paying for his master party. There had to be at least one master gunsmith at each firm, so if Max Knoll opened his business in 1887 and consider the average/typical age of a master gunsmith was 24 years, then he was probably born in the early 1860s. He looks to have made the transition from gunmaker to firearms merchant pretty quick as by 1890, or between 1887 & 1890, he was at the reins or held a substantial stake in Leue(Heinrich who lost an eye and designed/made cross-over longarms w/ W.W. Greener) & Timpe(J.F.), who began in 1860. So from this I would say Knoll rode on Leue’s coat-tails and Leue rode on his uncle Heinrich Barella’s coat-tails. Max Knoll had some 10 Belgian patents from circa 1900 up till WWI. The only reason he had an address in Suhl was to source components, guns in the white or completed firearms. Post WWI, I seriously doubt if any German maker made the firearms they peddled and I contend that the whole of Germany sourced the Suhl/Zella-Mehlis area. So the model shown in Knoll’s 1925 catalogue was sourced from Suhl.

I’ve also seen several Krupp tubes with the a pair of stamps of “K” in a rotated “square”. I don’t know if it is a quality stamp within the steel type or what. I've been chasing G. Wilcke Hof-Büchsenmacher of Stuttgart for some time and think by the time this longarm was made that he was long retired or was a firearms merchant with a small repair shop. At some point he was a master gunsmith in more than likely 2 facets of gunmaking. If I recall correctly, I’ve seen some of his examples like a 10/12 two barrel set from the 1870s or early 1880s, so he was in business for some time and his heirs and assigns continued the business solely on his name as was typical of many of the makers. Several of the post WWI(or during) & prior to 1924 Wilcke examples I’ve seen were made by the aide of the “E.K.” craftsman. For now I guess the tubes to have been made/assembled or both by Emil Klett, whose family in the mid 19th century had at least one craftsman listed for each of the individual tasks necessary to furnish a completed firearm. There were at least ½ dozen master gunsmiths in the group, which were included in the baker’s dozen or so involved in arms production. But trade directories list Emil Klett as being active in the early to mid 1920s and if the combo longarm was made during WWI, the craftsman could have been one of the following:
Emil Kerner, Sr. or Ernst Kerner, and of course there may be others. The frame easily could have been sourced from Merkel, but I think it came from Greifelt & Company as it looks like a Model 96, with the horn triggerbow but I don’t see a cartridge trap in the butt. There was a Model 94 but along with Krupp steel tubes, it had a metal triggerbow. Simson is another possibility for the frame and August Schüler had a similar offering as a Model 26 but I bet he sourced Greifelt or Simson.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: ellenbr]
      #142203 - 18/09/09 12:19 AM

Raimey, WOW great info! THANKS! Do you have pics or catalog pics of the Greifelts you speak of? Could you post them if you do? Or of the Simpson? Appreciate the VERY informative post! Kevin.

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Buchsemann
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #142236 - 18/09/09 08:16 AM

Raimey,

That is some great information, thank you!

I currently produce a 1925 Greifelt catalog and can easily send PDFs of pages 54 through 57 to those interested. These pages note the Model 94 and 96 as well as the other Bockbuchsflintes offered at the time.

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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ellenbr
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #142240 - 18/09/09 09:30 AM

Thanks fellas. I'm attempting to compose info on as many Austrian/Bohemian/German makers as possible and post them via a web-page possibly with pics of the examples. I can take a few images of the Schuler or Simson and add them. Also, the G. Wilcke 2 barrel set was 8/10 not 10/12 and one or both were sourced from Belgium. 8 bore tubes are not common.

Buchsenman; your unknown maker drilling was probably made by Emil Funk. I have some info but just haven't had time to post it yet.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: ellenbr]
      #142386 - 20/09/09 12:05 PM

Buchsenman, love to see those pages. How can we do this? Kevin.

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Buchsemann
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #142794 - 28/09/09 01:42 AM

Just PM me and I'll attach them in a response.

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #142856 - 29/09/09 09:26 AM

PM sent....

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Buchsemann
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #142915 - 30/09/09 08:06 AM

heers68,

I replied to your PM, did you get it? I'm not sure how to attach the PDFs to a PM so you might have to PM me again with an e-mail address that I can send them to and yes, I'm new at this stuff.

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: Buchsemann]
      #165292 - 31/07/10 06:35 AM



ATTENTION KUDUAE!!! Bringing this one of mine back up becouse I have been very impressed indeed with Kuduae's knowledge of the early German proof marks and guns from this period in general! Still wondering the year of production of this BBF and any idea's on maker or makers involved in building this gun?? ANY info appreciated and please feel free to ask for more info or pictures from me! THANKS! Kevin.


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #166645 - 23/08/10 06:17 AM

BTTT...Kuduae??

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kuduae
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #166651 - 23/08/10 07:20 AM

Sorry, heers68, but I have nothing to add, except, perhaps, your Wilke gun was certainly made and proofed in Suhl, not Zella - Mehlis, as the word NITRO is in block letters, not script. So it may have been made up by anyone in Suhl. Raimey ellenbr already told you about the possibilities. The problem is: No German gunmaker ever said: "Sorry, we don't offer such a thing." If a customer asked for a special gun, he would say:"Of course we will build that gun for you." Then he would farm out work and buy in parts or even the complete gun, even from his competitor next door, and sign it as his own product. Well the EK stamp looks like a barrelmaker, so it may be one of the Kelber dynasty.
It is impossible to pinpoint a model or maker from such details as a horn trigger guard or caartridge magzine in the buttstock, as these were essentially special order additions that could be added or left off at the whim of the customer.

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.


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heers68
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: kuduae]
      #166652 - 23/08/10 07:38 AM

THANKS for your input Kuduae. Do you think 1920's or 30's? I really love the gun though and admire the early German guns very much! Kevin Reddinger.

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ellenbr
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: heers68]
      #166665 - 23/08/10 12:55 PM

Kevin:
It was made in Suhl between 1912 & 1923. Until yet have we been able to make a somewhat accurate guesstatement or stab and the "K" in the rhombus or rotated square. Like Mark posted, Mr. Dietrich Apel has seen the stamp before and possibly has the answer penned away somewhere. But I think we can narrow the tubeset knitter to being of the Kelber klan or the Klett klan. I think Erich Kelber to be the son of Wilhelm Kelber but I don't think he was active when your example was made. Emil Klett looks to have been active just after WWI and he stems from a long and wide family of gunmakers. He'd be my guess, but that's all it is a guess. To whom the "EK" belongs is yet to be defined, but who ever he was he put a large effort in tube knitting as his initials are found on many examples. Your longarm somewhat resembles a Merkel but not fully. They usually subed their tube work to the boys Kelber. Any other worn marks near the forend lug or on the frame may help narrow the field. Wilcke pretty much was a firearms merchant but also had to be a master gunsmith or employ a mastergun smith. The smart gunsmith who became businessmen migrated to being a firearms merchant because that was where the money was. The other master craftsmen continued in their craft and while being experts in their field became subcontractors to the trade. Wilcke may have been a wholesaler who sourced the components and then subcontracted the work. Who knows, but we are continually digging for answers in a pool that is somewhat dingy and has a lot of sand in it that keeps pouring back upon you. The main thing to remember is that there were families of craftsmen who performed specific tasks and for generations they appear to do the same thing. Gunmaking families intermarried developing sourcing lines in addition to, or along the same lines, as economic sourcing lines. Your puzzle is somewhat simple compared to some of the examples that have surfaced.

My definition of early would be from the 1870s. But of course almost all would be hammerguns. Now there's an addiction that's difficult to overcome.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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450_366
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: ellenbr]
      #166674 - 23/08/10 03:33 PM

Quote:

Kevin:
Until yet have we been able to make a somewhat accurate guesstatement or stab and the "K" in the rhombus or rotated square. Like Mark posted, Mr. Dietrich Apel has seen the stamp before and possibly has the answer penned away somewhere.




The rhomb is a actually a square G and it stands for Gebruder Kelbe, if i remember right.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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ellenbr
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Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: 450_366]
      #166691 - 23/08/10 09:16 PM

Andreas:
It could be as Rudolf Kelber is the only Kelber missing during this period to my knowledge. But for the Brothers Kelber the rhombus was more of a "G". Also why would both Louis & Wilhelm Kelber both have their own forge type stamps? You will see Louis Kelber's mark of a jagged encircled "K" in pairs while Wilhelm Kelber's mark of a "K" encircled by a "W" is seen a single. Like the Belgians in having a registered trademark steel stamp, like "Krupp Stahl", I believe each German tubemaker may be identified by the trademark/steel recipe and also at the end of something akin to say "Krupp Fluss Stahl" there will be a bullet and then typically there's a letter, sometimes "J", and then another mark.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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gpsb
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Reged: 17/03/08
Posts: 65
Loc: NJ
Re: G. Wilcke Bockbuchsflinte [Re: ellenbr]
      #168327 - 24/09/10 01:03 AM

Beautiful weapon.

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