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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
12 ga round ball?
      #90245 - 01/12/07 07:56 AM

Hello Folks,
In 1991 my father passed away and left me his L.C. Smith 12 ga double shotgun. It was made in 1949. I've always cared for the gun as a treasure, but lately have been thinking about shooting it more. It has 30" modified and full choke barrels. If I were to load some round-ball ammo, what diameter balls should I use? Would lubricated patches lessen the chance of damage to the chokes? Is this a bad idea for a gun that is priceless (to me)? Thanks for your help.

Take care, Tom


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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: Tatume]
      #90297 - 01/12/07 07:01 PM

Tatume,
I would just enjoy the gun as made, a shotgun, and leave slug and/ball shooting to guns with barrels specifically designed for that use. I inherited Uncle Ray's (on my wife's side of the family) LC Smith, a 1910 vintage field gun with beautful damascus barrels and bushed strikers. I promised my Fatherinlaw to keep the gun in the family and I will. I intend to use it as Uncle Ray did, on his North Dakota farm, on pheasent. LC's are nice old American guns, I would love to see a photo of yours.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (01/12/07 07:03 PM)


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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: gatsby]
      #90398 - 03/12/07 06:55 AM

Gatsby,

I would be happy to take some photos of Dad's LC Smith, but I don't think I can post them. If I understand correctly, I would need a website to which I post the photos, and then link them to this forum. I don't have such a website.

Take care, Tom


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: Tatume]
      #90417 - 03/12/07 12:00 PM

It would not be wise to shoot a round ball through a full choke gun. If you sized it to pass through the choke barrel it proberbly would be very erratic through the MC barrel. Vice versa it could damage the choke section of the barrel.

Regards


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Yogi000
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: Bramble]
      #90469 - 04/12/07 05:56 AM

Tatume---

Daryl has done some excellent work with round ball loads. I suggest you read some of his many posts on the subject.

I really like double barrel slug guns so I am prejudice and will almost always say you should try slugs! hahaha

It sounds like a really nice gun and since it is yours and since you want to consider shooting slugs with it SO you CAN use it MORE, I don't see anything wrong with investigating this choice.

My own experience is you can shoot round balls effectively by sizing the RB smaller than the bores or the chokes and using a variety of materials as a "patch", or using a shotcup placed upside down in the hull with the concave bowl holding the round ball. Obviously, for a full choked tube, you should measure the actual diameter before doing anything(!) Theoretically the full choke will measure .694 diameter.

With that said, I would think you might be able to use a .690 round ball and as long as it is smaller than the actual numbers you get when you measure the chokes, then the shot cup will act as a carrier to center the slug in either barrel and it will shoot out of the IC and the full choke. I would start with off-the-shelf round balls because they are pure lead and softer to minimize potential of damage...

I recently cut the barrels on a side by side and then shot slugs from it. The left barrel hit consistently at point of aim (hurray!). The right barrel hit slightly left of point of aim. There may be a bure on the right barrel so after I do a light sanding job I intend to shoot it again and hopefully it is not the barrel itself being off... however even at that, as long as I know where the right barrel will hit at various distances I am good to hunt with this gun.

Obviously on your 1949 gun I would start with---and most likely stay---on the LOW powder side of any load formula. Low is about 10% under what the published load might be for a regular load recommendation. You don't want to go TOO low, either!

I would talk with guys who shoot slugs from smooth bores. That includes the gunsmith you should take this gun to to check it out thoroughly before you attempt shooting slugs through it. Not all gunsmiths are created equal...

I have found in my years of slug experimentation that shotgunners are divided into very different schools: (1)some are adamant that all shotguns are for best for shot only and are not really for slugs, (2)some would not recommend shooting slugs from doubles because doubles are not made for that, and then (3)there is the school who have shot slugs from doubles successfully--- They are always working on ways to shoot slugs from another side by side! (that's the school Daryl and I belong to! hahaha)

From 410 to 10 gauge doubles I think side by sides can be great slug shooters! It funny too---every guy I have talked with who has pulled an old double barrle out and tried shooting slugs with it has beenm amazed at the surprising accuracy. Theya lmost always say---it shot better than i thought or better than anyone told me it would.
I hunt white tail with a side by side 12 gauge... every hunter out there has said --- " Are you sure about that thing? It seems like the wrong gun to me."... hahahaha. The deer "this thing" has taken apparently haven't listened to the sage advise I've gotten! hahaha


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: Yogi000]
      #90598 - 05/12/07 05:36 AM

Quote:

Daryl has done some excellent work with round ball loads. I suggest you read some of his many posts on the subject.




Actually, I was hoping Daryl_S would weigh in on the subject. I started to say so in the posting, then thought better of it, as I don't want other people to think I'm not interested in their thoughts too. Oh well.

Take care, Tom


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Yogi000
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: Tatume]
      #90618 - 05/12/07 08:30 AM

Tatume---

Actually, what I am planning to do with my recent 12 gauge double barrel acquisition may be of benefit here---

I bought a 50 year old Russell Arms side by side with 18 inch long barrels with modified and full chokes that was most recently used as a very successful cowboy shooter. The gun has spent most of its life shooting low brass.

I am investigating the concept of loading up lower charged slugs for this. The plan is to use light slugs that weigh 7/8 oz or less (maybe even 5/8 oz which is still a 275 grain projectile!) and marry this with a lower dram charge, similar to a recipe used for cowboy shooting. They generally shoot 1 oz of #6 shot. I plan to use a patch and/or 12 gauge plastic carriage to hold the slug centered in the tubes similar in approach to the Sabot carrier.

As a fall back option I "may" actually use 20 gauge slugs and center those in the 12 gauge plastic carriers.

The defining moments will be after my gunsmith thoroughly checks the gun out and gives me the okay or thumbs down and the actually measured diameters of the bores and muzzles, along the length of the chokes. I have found that the actual measurements of chokes varies wildy and one marked modified measures IC and a full choke measures at a modified.

The actual numbers mean everything.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26668
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: Yogi000]
      #90622 - 05/12/07 09:40 AM

You're doing fine Yogi000. I'm glad you're having success with my methods or suggestions.
: The shot/cup base is excellent in holding the ball centred, seated cup-up underneath the ball - spot-on.
: 40 points of choke which is the old designation for standard full choke brings the full choke diameter to .689" from .729". Many full choke shotguns measure an even .690", while .702" is improved modified, .715" Modified, etc.
: Lyman and now Lee both have .690" round ball moulds due to this normal full choke size. Lyman even has loading data in their shotshell manuals for loading this .690" ball and other projectiles too, along with wad recommendations and different hulls and primers being used.
: Any side by side can be made to shoot accurately with round balls, however, one tube might not shoot in line with the other. You absoltuely need sights, a front and a rear that give a good sight picture. Once one has one tube shooting perfectly, great groups, in line with the rib, etc, tweeking that load can sometimes bring the other tube in. Juggling loads (if you are capable and understand what you are up to) can be effective in regulating the loads so the barrels shoot together.
: Use of the cup underneath the ball, holds it in the centre as it travels down the bore due to the "G" force of accelleration. It matters not if the bore is modified, full or cylinder. The ball is held centred. My double allowed me roughly 10" at 100 meters, 2 lefts and 2 rights, using a .684" ball at 1,550fps in it's cylinder bored .725" tubes. It was tight for a 12, while many today are way oversize. With a modern gun that is 'back-bored' to, say, .735", be aware that Lyman sells a .735" mould that casts around 600gr. in WW metal. I don't know if the doubles are 'bck-bored' or if that's only in pumps and autos. Lyman also sells, or used to sell a .715" mould. Currently, they have a .690", like Lee, for loading ball loads in 12 bore shells for an gauge shotgun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26668
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: DarylS]
      #91012 - 09/12/07 07:14 AM

Due to some mail I've received, I've decided to re-print some of the loads suggested in a book I have. These loads are actually higher in powder charge than what I used, but not by much. Different wad columns and weights of wads causes increased pressure. Much depends on what wad column a person is using.
: Combinations of wad columns can also be used, but always start low and proceed cautiously.
: I suggest, if you use an undersized ball and if it's properly loaded, it will never touch the barrel's walls and therefore, won't lead. I will remain spherical for better accuracy and will not have flat spots that promotes spining in fight. For such a ball, you could use a AA-type wad, petals cut off, with just the base of another similar wad, sitting on top, cup-up cradling the ball. This will hold the ball in the centre of the bore and help accurate shooting.
: If one uses a plastic wad or any plastic seal, cup down on the powder, start low with the powder charges. If you change any component, start low first. Changing any component can and will change the pressure produced. Be smart, start low.
; Roll crimpers are available from Lyman - use a drill press. Everyone has one of those, eh.
; Fold crimps develope more pressure than roll crimps as they are more difficult to open and pressure has to build more to open them.
: Note that in a choked gun, you MUST use a ball no larger than the smallest diamter of the bore or it might peen out the choke or split the muzzle. This is why Lyman used only u to .690" balls as that is the nominal size of a 12 bore full choke. Extra full is probably even tighter - I wouldn't even shoot balls through one of those.

;#1/. - Fed Plastic Hunting hull - - Win 209 primer 33.5gr. 4756,- BPGS, 1/2" fiber wad - BRENNEKE slug FOLDED crimp - 1,457fps at only 9,800LUP. That's a powerful load. I would start testing at 28.0gr. and go up slowly, chronographing and recording the results as to placement on paper and group sizes.
;2/. - same basic load with a roll crimp, but 36.0gr. 4756 - 1,508fps. 10,500LUP
;#3/. - Fed Plastic Hunting Hull - WW 209 primer - 33.0 gr. Unique Remington #R12L - 2, 20 ga. Butler 1/8" card wads inside,-.662" round ball (16 bore ball about 440gr.)ROLL Crimp - 1,531fps. 8,800LUP
;#4/. - Fed Plastic Hunting Hull - - WW209 - 30.0gr. Unique - Fed #12S4 - 2, 20 bore 1/8" cards inside wad, .662" ball fold crimp -9,900LUP
: #5 - Fed Plastic Hunting Hull - WW209 - 40.0gr. 4756 - Win WAA12 petals removed, - 1/2" fibre wad, - .125" card wad - .690" ball Fold crimp - 1,538fps - ROLL Crimp - 10,200LUP. Note the big powder charge - reduce to 30.0gr. if using a second base wad cup for ball guidance. a .690" ball will rattle down a .730" bore and be innaccurate with this load. They are counting on a choke to straighten out the ball.
: #6- same wads as #5, but FOLD crimp 'same' pressure with 1,456fps and 36.0gr. 4756.
: #7 - WW Comp/formed Hull- WW209 - 37.0gr. 4756 - WAA12 petals removed - 2, .125 cards, .690" ball, ROLL crimp - 1,534fps, 10,400 LUP
; #7 - same hull, primer 32.5gr. 4756 -same wads, FOLD crimp, 1,428fps, 10,100LUP. Note very minor pressure drop and 106 fps lower velocity. The only diference in the laoding is the crimp. Now, you may be able to load up to 33, 34 or 35gr.with the folded crimp and gain back the lost velocity with only a bit increased pressure but maybe not. Your gun will tell you, if you speak the langage.
; The maximun allowable pressure is the same as a modern 3 dram, 1-1/8oz. trap load, or 3-1/2" 2 oz. goose load or 2 3/4" 1-1/4 oz. field load - they all develope the same pressure and thus your handloads too should be held below 11,500LUP which is normal maximum pressure of all shotshells and to what they are all loaded by factories
: Depending on hull used, wad column used, projectile and crimp form, the powder charges with 4756 ranged from a low of 27.0gr. to a high of 42.0gr., and pretty much producing idential pressure with the same projectiles. The only differnce was the hull and sometimes the primer. So - one must be careful and ALWAYS start low.
; I suggest using this data for an 'idea' of what your 12 bore is capable of.
: When I started shooting balls from my 12 double, I started with known, low pressure, fairly low velocity, loads form a shotshell book using 1-1/4 ounce shot loads with 7625 and 4756 powder, but with the much lighter .684" round balls. This was a safe place to start and I reommend everyone similarly as well, unless you DUPLICATE the loads noted, exactly, with no deviation whatsoever.
; Today, if starting out anew, I'd get a .690" round ball mould from Lyman or Lee, probably Lyman and iron blocks rule. If a 1 ounce ball suits you as all you want it for is deer or black bear, buy a .662" mould and you can use wads without cutting off the petals, just by putting filler cards inside to take up space - that is all wads do - take up space and seal gas pressure behind. The petals will pretty much centre the ball in the bore.
: Hope this helps. You really all should buy the Lyman #2 shotshell book if it is still available, if not the #3 or #4, or whatever. I expect the newest one has ball and slug data too. If not, and if you have no shotshell handloading books, you need one for a place to start - as I did, using shot data, so buy the book anyway.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Otto
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Reged: 15/09/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: DarylS]
      #91081 - 10/12/07 02:12 AM

Daryl, Great stuff for throwbacks like us determined to conquer the cast round ball. I'm working with a Greener police gun rifled at 1 in 80" with .728 bore and .743 grooves. This barrel was nitro proofed at 1 1/2 oz so with the modern Martini action, I consider the gun "strong". My loads are put up in either 2 1/2" Cheddite plastic hulls or 2 1/2" CBC brass cases. My chamber is 2 1/2". I'm using either .662" balls cast of pure lead or .750" balls cast of #2 alloy. The .750 balls are shot either as cast or sized to .745" but all are lubed with Lee liquid alox. The .662 balls are shot in Gualandi 1225 wads. These wads have a very short cup and don't require any fillers. Plastic cases are fold crimped and brass cases have an over shot card with lots of Elmers glue to keep em together. Even the .750" balls rattle a bit in the brass cases so I use an inverted AA base to help center the ball. Results so far are stunningly successful. Accuracy with the "issue sights" at 50 yrds tends to be one ragged hole after 3 or 4 shots. I'm pondering how to improve the sights for work at longer ranges. I want to keep the sights low low so may end up making what I need. Your many posts on this subject have been so very useful. Do you have any idea what the rifled barrel does to the pressures listed with your load data? Thanks

Otto


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26668
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Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: Otto]
      #91086 - 10/12/07 04:09 AM

Any forcing of the ball to follow rifling will increase pressure a bit, even though velocity isn't retarded much if any. We've done tat test using .62 cal rifles and smoothbores wiht black powder - maybe that's why, but it has alwasy been said that smoothbores shot faster- not true all the time. I wouldn't worry at all with your Martini.
; Twist is perfect. I have a .745" mould that Jeff Tanner made for me, and it casts .742" in WW metal, perfect for your bore. Too bad it casts the ball my bro uses in his 1728 Bess.
: Great accuracy - great power - what more could a guy ask for?
; Have you googled express sigths yet? There might be something there that would be perfect.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Yogi000
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 265
Loc: New York, USA
Re: 12 ga round ball? [Re: DarylS]
      #91191 - 11/12/07 03:57 AM

I like the concept of the .662 round ball and leaving the petals ON on the shotcups! And starting with very low pressure loads... I wonder if they could be used in my Russell Arms, 12 gauge, hammer gun? It has Belgian twist barrels and is choked mod and full. I would only try very low powder loads but it would be great to be able to shoot slugs out of this side by side.

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