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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark

10bore shoot
#147865 - 14/12/09 02:00 AM

I finally had some time to go shoot.

My first smokeless loads in the borerifle. I started( in my eager) at 100 meters but no shots hit the target...I had to go closer and tried with 50 meters.

The rifle was( me really) putting all shots too much to the left, but the height was fine. I was aiming at 6 O`clock between the black and white.

Load was 60 grain BlueDot 3 feltwads and no nitrowads for this time. Next load will be with nitrocard/wad. Winchester 209 primer. RMC 3.25" case.
Bullet was NEI 945 grain. The bullet is .03 subbored.

All in all I was satisfied. I know I have some loaddevelopment ahead.
Recoil was about like a .416Rigby/.458 WCF mag.. A load one could shoot all day.

Merry x.mas and Happy new year to all on the board

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: rigbymauser]
#147879 - 14/12/09 04:13 AM

Sweet Rifle!

Do you mean to say that your roundball are .030" (30/1000") under size compared to the groove diameter?
Was that roundball or a conical?

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: rigbymauser]
#147883 - 14/12/09 04:17 AM

With the listed weight the bullet has to be a conical. You might want to try a roundball sized at or slightly larger than groove diameter. What black powders are available to you?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: tinker]
#147884 - 14/12/09 04:18 AM

Quote:

Sweet Rifle!

Do you mean to say that your roundball are .030" (30/1000") under size compared to the groove diameter?
Was that roundball or a conical?

Cheers
Tinker

It was/is conicals I have. The rifles bore is .793cal, but the bulletmold is casting .790cal..so it is ofcouse .003 subcalibered and not .030cal( type error).

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: gatsby]
#147885 - 14/12/09 04:19 AM

Oh yes - NEI mould...

Got so excited with the photos I got ahead of myself there!

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: tinker]
#147886 - 14/12/09 04:20 AM

If the bore is .793", what is the groove diameter?
The reason I ask is that in shooting a handful of different 16-bore double rifles I've found that undersize projectiles don't tend to give best accuracy -- and they don't tend to 'bump up' to groove diameter.

I have found best accuracy with roundball, and at a few thousandths of an inch oversize.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: gatsby]
#147888 - 14/12/09 04:26 AM

Quote:

With the listed weight the bullet has to be a conical. You might want to try a roundball sized at or slightly larger than groove diameter. What black powders are available to you?

WE have swiss blackpowder. There is a significant less recoil in smokelessloads vs blackpowder.
A thing I have not experienced, but only read about is..The brass doesn`t need to resized. I tried to put in a bullet in the oncefired cases. The bullet still has to be pressed hard down. No expansion at the casemouth at all. The oncefired brass slips perfectly down into the barrels again.

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: tinker]
#147889 - 14/12/09 04:32 AM

Quote:

If the bore is .793", what is the groove diameter?

Cheers
Tinker

The rifling is shallow metford rifing. I haven`t measured the rifling yet, but it could easly be around .789-.787. standard grooveheight on the metford was only .002-003".

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: rigbymauser]
#147891 - 14/12/09 04:51 AM

I think we may be confusing terms, since groove diameter is necessarily greater than bore diameter, and you have it less (.793" versus .789-.787").

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: xausa]
#147892 - 14/12/09 04:58 AM

I think I get it.

Is this the same rifle/bullet seen in these photos?

Have you recovered a bullet from that dirt hillside?

My guess is that you won't see full engraving of that bullet.
Would you consider a simple paper-patching and sizing of the bullets you have there?

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: tinker]
#147895 - 14/12/09 05:30 AM

Hey Tinker.

The bullet on the picture is a 11oo grain .775cal I bought from NEI before gettig the rifle.
The bullet(new) looks like a flatpointed .45colt bullet.

I may have to get a bulletmold that do a .793-4caliber, but getting NEI that was so close, was the only option that was avaiable.
Yes...the rifle is the same as in the picture in your post.

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: rigbymauser]
#147896 - 14/12/09 05:37 AM

Got it.

You could easily have that mould set up in a 4-jaw lathe chuck and bore it up to a bit over size -- then make simple (push through) dies for sizing and lubing.

That course would get you quickly and very inexpensively on the track to properly sized bullets.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: tinker]
#147899 - 14/12/09 05:56 AM

I know a good toolmaker that can do an enlargement of the mold cavaties, That will be the next approach here between x-mas & newyear.

Next time I`LL add nitrowads...then change the charge...then use a different bulletlube..etc. One change at the time only to get a good grasp of the situaton. Then in the end..hopefully all shots will sit within handspread at 70 yards or so. Good enough for me. Minute of buffaloheart..

I don`t know how much a change in primer can alter a borerifles accuracy...but I doubt is much if anything at all. The BlueDot burned clean. No unburned powder were present. The brass looks very clean inside too.
The 60 grain BlueDot load were taken from an artical in 1996 GunDigest.

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: rigbymauser]
#147907 - 14/12/09 07:02 AM

I agree with you on the "one step at a time" approach to fiddling with the load.
Getting the bullets to fit properly is a very good place to start - that's so long as you're getting good ignition, which you say isn't a problem.

That 60gr Blue Dot should give similar energy to about an 8-1/2 dram load.
Is that what you're looking to do?

Black powder is the easiest to ignite.
Pretty much anything will light black powder.
If your primers are setting the Blue Dot off, good for you!

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: tinker]
#147908 - 14/12/09 07:13 AM

Quote:

I agree with you on the "one step at a time" approach to fiddling with the load.
Getting the bullets to fit properly is a very good place to start - that's so long as you're getting good ignition, which you say isn't a problem.

That 60gr Blue Dot should give similar energy to about an 8-1/2 dram load.
Is that what you're looking to do?

Black powder is the easiest to ignite.
Pretty much anything will light black powder.
If your primers are setting the Blue Dot off, good for you!

Cheers
Tinker

As regarding velocity ,power and regulation I will primary go for reguation. If the velocity is "only" 14ooFt/sec its fine..solong it regulat flush with the sights. This rifle of mine is regulated for a full 10 dram, which indicate we have a regulating velocity between 1500-1600 Ft/sec in my book. However bullet weight is not stated anywhere. I have seen 10 bore paradox rifle regulated with bulletweighs from 875grain to 935grains. My rifle a fully rifled, and I suspect the originally bulletweight may have been up to a 1000 grain + . The twist is 1:51.
I will next time load some blackpowder rounds too, to see how well that does.( I`LL shoot them last in the session)

Edited by rigbymauser (14/12/09 07:14 AM)

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Raff
.300 member

Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: rigbymauser]
#147910 - 14/12/09 07:39 AM

rigbymauser;
As a point of reference for you, here is my most
accurate load for my WC Scott 10 bore rifle.
RMC turned brass cases, 2 7/8" long.
Winchester 209 primers
215 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 FG black powder
700 grain soft lead round ball.
Two.070" Hard over powder wads and a lubed felt wad to bring
the ball up to the case mouth. Light crimp to hold the ball
in place.
1410 Ft./Sec. (430 M/S) Chronograph measured at 15 ft. (3+ Meters)
This shoots to the sights on my rifle.

That is simply a great looking rifle you have. Very nice!
Any plans to use it on a hunt?
Hope this helps
Raff

--------------------
.

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: Raff]
#147919 - 14/12/09 09:41 AM

Raff-

Is your rifle marked for an 8-dram load?
Have you found that black powder typically gets you the best accuracy?

Rigbymauser-

Have fun with that thing.
Raff is right, it's a beauty!

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Raff
.300 member

Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: tinker]
#147927 - 14/12/09 11:09 AM

Tinker;
Mine is marked on the barrel flats as an 8 dr.
If you load much over that the accuracy goes right down
drain.
We need to find a Double Rifle shoot to meet at one of these
days. I would really like to see your Westly 16.
Good Hunting
Raff

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gatsby
.375 member

Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: Raff]
#147932 - 14/12/09 12:31 PM

RM,
If you believe your gun to be a 10 drammer 60gr of Bluedot is light but increase with caution. I use 60gr in my 8 dram guns

Raff,
I am also located in SoCal and shoot at West End.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: gatsby]
#147944 - 14/12/09 03:04 PM

Raff-

I'm still in the wicked dance called 'getting the hell out of California'.
In the theme of 'one thing at a time' I will have to hold back any scheduling of bore-rifle hootinanny until I have a new zip-code.
Once that chapter's written I'll get on this and some other long-neglected calendar marks!

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: gatsby]
#147951 - 14/12/09 05:31 PM

Quote:

RM,
If you believe your gun to be a 10 drammer 60gr or Bluedot is light but increase with caution. I use 60gr in my 8 dram guns

Raff,
I am also located in SoCal and shoot at West End.

The barrels are marked "8-10 drams". I know using the BlueDot has to a be delicate matter. .1/2grain only in increasements. Using 10 drams of Swiss 1.5 gives me 1745 Ft/sec with a tephlon wrapped 900 grain bullet.
What kind of 10bore is your gun? Rifling etc?

Edited by rigbymauser (14/12/09 06:45 PM)

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Raff
.300 member

Reged: 12/01/04
Posts: 182
Loc: Texas

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: rigbymauser]
#148002 - 15/12/09 10:48 AM

rigbymauser:
Mine is very much like yours except that yours is much
nicer than mine. Mine is fully rifled, Jones underlever
with back action hammers. Built for the 8 dram load and
probably only set up for a round ball. It will shoot a 900 gr.
short conical, but a 700 gr. round ball works much better.
This rifle is easily cleaned with a garden hose down the
breech, so I just don't have the desire to experiment with
smokeless in it.

gatsby; I do not know where "West End" is. I have heard
of it, but I shoot at Rainbow (just south of Temecula.
Where is your range?
We need to get together for a shoot. Maybe tinker will
come. (are you listening John?)
Good Hunting
Raff

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: Raff]
#148006 - 15/12/09 11:50 AM

I'm listening!
There is further load development work to do with that WR too (also the Purdey, and some cartridge-case experiments I want to do with the Mahillon).
On Black Powder cleanup, I'm definitely with you on that point.
There's a lot of surface area on a SxS bore-rifle, why complicate matters with caustic solvents!!?

RigbyMauser-

Have you checked for movement of the bullet in the second barrel cartridge after firing the first?
Just curious -- those point-crimps are Victorian-Cool!

We need a U-Tube update of your shooting exploits with that 10-bore.
Get cracking!

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: Raff]
#148056 - 16/12/09 01:22 AM

Hey Raff.

What is your twistratio?.

I could makeup some 900 grain conicals for you in .775cal. You shall know that using smokeless powder like BlueDot create less chamberpressure than blackpowder. If you are using strong brass like from RCM, I wouldn`t worry at all using BlueDot. The funny thing about the blackpowderloads is when someone wants to try to emty the "magazine" of your doublerifle..Recoil hahahaha.
Please post a picture of your double when time permits so

When I shot my double for the first time I was using BP loads, cleaning was with regular dishwash sulpher, and the barrels were mirrorbright afterwards. Smokeless loads are just easier, but I do enjoy the blackpowder too. It is simply a joy to unleash full charge BP + 900 grain lead. One really gets understand what power these borerifles are producing.

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rigbymauser
.400 member

Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark

Re: 10bore shoot [Re: tinker]
#148057 - 16/12/09 01:26 AM

Quote:

I'm listening!

RigbyMauser-

Have you checked for movement of the bullet in the second barrel cartridge after firing the first?
Just curious -- those point-crimps are Victorian-Cool!

We need a U-Tube update of your shooting exploits with that 10-bore.
Get cracking!

Cheers
Tinker

No..I haven`t checked for movement of bullet..Maybe I should have really..However, the bullets are sitting very very tight + they pointcrimped as you have noticed. The point squeeses on the bulletdriveband
Its a simple tool I have had made up to reproduce the victorian style crimp..picture will follow later. I have thought of UTube...when I have a good load + some Ol` TVs to blast, I`LL tube it...hahaha

Cheers JR

Edited by rigbymauser (16/12/09 01:37 AM)

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