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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120701 - 09/12/08 11:44 AM

Goex. Just do a google search for4 GOEX black powder and you can find sources who sell it online. getting it locally at shops in NY is about hopeless. I buy 25 pounds at a time. Yet I am going through it at a rapid pace.

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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120707 - 09/12/08 12:43 PM

Thanks Yogi. Found it. A couple of guys down at my range use Swiss as well so I will try a bit of both and see what generates best results. Thx

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DarylS
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120733 - 09/12/08 04:57 PM

bill- Swiss is considerably more expensive, but you get what you paid for, in terms of an almost duplicate in speed and pressure to original loads. GOEX runs about 20% behind Swiss - that is, it takes about 20% more GOEX to match the ballistics of Swiss.
: In the cannon you're having build, I'd just use GOEX. To me, Swiss is for regulating a favourite BP double express rifle or for competition with BP Ctg. guns, not for making smoke. I seem to be able to hit the winner's circle often enough using GOEX in my flinter so don't feel comprimized using the cheaper 'stuff'. For use in my Sharps though, I'd sure like to glean a few pounds of Swiss.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120763 - 10/12/08 02:50 AM

Sounds good, thx guys. Yeah checked some prices last night and swiss is costly! Especially at 200 - 400 grains per shot not that i will be shooting many ;-).

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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120857 - 11/12/08 02:55 AM

Bill---As you stated a while back in this theard your 4 bore gun you view as a 30-50 yard gun, thus, GOEX will be quite satisfcatory for your needs. I use GOEX now and can make ragged holes at 50 yards with my 54 caliber muzzleloader using IRON sites with regularity. You just can't get better than that as far as I am concerned. GOEX is good powder.

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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120858 - 11/12/08 03:00 AM

Thanks Yogi - thats exactly what I am going to use. Appreciate the advice.

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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120862 - 11/12/08 03:32 AM

I am deer hunting now with my 54 cal black powder muzzleloader. Too bad I can't seem to get out much this year but it is more than enough caliber for white tail. Mine likes 90 grains of 3F Goex.

I do intend to get out as well with my blunderbuss and a 4 bore round ball, but need to get a little more practice time in before I would hunt with it. During hunting season it is a major event to opt for practice with a new shooter INSTEAD of getting in the woods to hunt.


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120868 - 11/12/08 04:31 AM

Enjoy the day and good luck out there! I am sitting in my office in NYC as we speak and would trade places with you in a nanosecond...

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DarylS
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120953 - 12/12/08 03:31 AM

As to accuracy with the smoothbore

- The larger the ball, the longer will usually be it's usefull accuracy range. This is a general statement. Few 12 bore flintlock shooters I've observed display such accuracy. Shinking from the 'manifestation of the charge' being the main reason (flinching). Of course, the best accuracy obtainable with a smoothbore is caused by the same reasons as in a rifle. Accuracy is in direct relation to it's charge and manner of loading, ie: diameter of ball, thickness of patch, lubricant used and powder charge developed to show that gun's best results.

In testing we've easily made many diagrams (groups) of 5 or more shots at 25 yards with 20 bore smoothbores, that run 1" in diameter - this with only the blade front sight- usually a small, low silver 'turtle' sight and using the 'hump' of the tang as the rear sight indicator. Some smoothbore shooters use the tang screw as an rear indicator for centre, but with my aging eyes that is invisible. For me, the top flat has to be sufficient.

Many smoothbores seem to have a habit of sending downrange, the odd 'flyer' - way out of the group. Whatever causes this is anyone's guess - perhaps something to do with weak patch combinations, too thin for consistancy. Using what we've learned about smoothbore accuracy, I've been able, with one particular 20 bore smoothbore, to make a 5 shot diagram of 3" at 50 yards. This is not common accuracy as most shooters will not be able to load the powder, ball/patch combination we've found necessary to procure such accuracy. My brothers/ 1728 Bess, with it's .774" bore and using a .740" ball along with a .030" denim patch, have been able to reduce this to 2 1/2" at 50 yards, but sending a 600gr. ball downrange with 100gr. 2F GOEX quickly becomes tiring shot off a bench. This particular 'Bess' dispatched a moose at 100 yards range - perfect hit ending up under the hide on the off side. 1 step and it was over. Simple math shows this gun's favourite and accurate load combination measures .800", therefore requiring .026" compression (.013" per side) to fit into the bore. There are not many shooters who load this tightly with rifles, let alone smoothbores. We find it loads easy. Many don't. The muzzle's gentle radiused crown allows such loading. A short starter is necessary. No, they didn't use short starters way back when - they didn't have the accuracy we have today, either.

100 yards shooting with smoothbores for many, becomes a 'hail Mary shot'. Being able to hold 8" to 10" is a sometimes thing, yet I've done it with a ctg. shotgun and round balls, but rarely with smoothbore muzzleloaders and not for the lack of trying. On the other hand, I've seen smoothbore shooters at rendezvous who shoot nothing but their smoothbores (refrain from shooting rifles), who with their smoothbores, push rifle scores all the way out to 125 yards and generally post scores on steel silhouette targets that rival the rifle scores and as happened last year, trounce the rifle scores entirely for 1st and 2nd places. We who shoot mostly rifles, are grateful the scoring is kept separate - yet, those smooth shooters shot little ones, only 20 bores.

A smoothbore therefore and only with good management, can have an effective range of 100 yards, but to do so, usually requires that the shooter use nothing else, becoming proficient in it's feeding and knowing where to hold the 'eye' (rear sight) to make such close hitting possible. This is why most smoothbores fall from grace at much closer ranges - 45 to 75 yards being the normal maximums, depending on the expertise of the shooter. They are capable of better, but few will spend the time and powder to do this.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (12/12/08 03:41 AM)


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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120972 - 12/12/08 06:57 AM

Daryl---- Thanks. Very useful info.

And yes once again my friends the morale of the story is: Buy More Powder. Shoot More.


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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120973 - 12/12/08 07:01 AM

and shhhhhh, don't tell anyone, we just shot my 4 bore blunderbuss at work in the bacl Parking LOT! I let my administrative assistant (25 yr old female) and an RIT student who is with us between semesters shoot it loaded up with about 110 grains of Black Powder with just a CLOTH wad... hey we are within City limits guys, jeeez.... But needless to say everyone got a charge out of the flame that shot out of the front, the hallow BOOM, and the SMOKE!!! hahahaaaaaaaa... we will have more newbies hooked on big bores very soon, my friends. very soon....

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bigdog
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120987 - 12/12/08 09:44 AM

That away!! Get everyone involved. Its good for the gun business. Glad you had fun.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: bigdog]
      #120989 - 12/12/08 09:56 AM

Would love to go out in front of my office and give that a try yogi... in Midtown manhattan.. until of course the cops showed up

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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #121375 - 17/12/08 04:19 AM

Well, I just emailed Jeff Tanner again. The mould I ordered never got here because it was accidently shipped to my old pre-fire address. Most have been delivered to a big gapping hole in the ground. boohoo, and now is lost in US postal system.

Anyway, since the 1.025" round balls Bob sent to me worked well in my blunderbuss I asked Tanner to send me a 1.025" mould instead of a 1.0" mould since we have to start from scratch with my order for a mould.

I still need to weigh them to get the exact weight in grains of the solid lead 1.025" round balls.

I hope to shoot the round ball load soon again and see if I can handle 180+ grains of pure 2F Black Powder under that mammoth round ball.


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DarylS
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #121389 - 17/12/08 10:11 AM

Yogi000 - can you load a descent patch with that one - like about .025", maybe even heavier?

180gr. = 6.6 drams 2F = such a light load, Sir? 3F will kick more for your shooting pleasure.

Just kidding, I know your little 'canoe' gun is quite light. 'Little' is a sort of play-on-words.
yeah- should be fun.

We'd like to try one out on a grizzly, just to see how impressed he'd be.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #121400 - 17/12/08 02:36 PM

Have fun with that yogi! 1.025 ball in pure lead should be around 1580 grains or so I believe...

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bigdog
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #121404 - 17/12/08 04:46 PM

Should be right at 1750 grains for a 4 bore round ball. The naval ordinance 4 bore bullets are 2000 grains.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #121407 - 17/12/08 06:05 PM

Yogi, I just weighed the one 1.025 ball in the almost-wheel weight alloy I sent you that I have left and got 1563 grains (it was sized to 1.007"). I think most of them weighed 1570-1580 grains, as I wasn't too picky about getting perfect zero-wrinkle bullets. Close enough for our purposes, I figured.

I weighed 6 unsized pure lead 1.025" balls (with a sprue flat) and got a range of 1602-1608 with an average of 1605.

Despite heating the mold, high casting temp, etc, with my bottom pour pot it takes long enough to fill the mold that a few cold spots seem just about inevitable. On my to-do list is getting a second pot and drilling out the spout and making a larger rod to get a higher flow rate. I've tried using a laddle many times, but the results weren't better enough for the extra effort. By no means am I a casting expert, so I usually shoot for good enough rather than perfect bullets for my own practice.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #121417 - 18/12/08 02:27 AM

Bob---I am not sure i know what you mean by---"it was sized to 1.007". I thought the RB's you sent me were 1.025"?

I am concerned because I just changed my order to Tanner to make me a mold that went from a 1.0" ball to a 1.025" ball. I hope a 1.025" ball won't be too big again for my Blunderbuss.

And yes Daryl I hear you about 3F being a sharper kicker than 2F. I didn't post this here but I tried 3F against 2F in this blunderbuss and found the 3F to be quite "fascinating" on the recoil end at the same weight as the 2F.... hahahahaaaaaaaaaa

Edited by Yogi000 (18/12/08 02:30 AM)


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #121421 - 18/12/08 03:20 AM

Sorry about the confusion. The balls I sent you were all 1.025". The one that I weighed was one that had been sized down to 1.007" to use in my gun, leaving a little waist or shank on it. I think that was the reason it was a few grains light (1563 vs 1580 or so).

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #121424 - 18/12/08 04:23 AM

Whew. Thanks for the clarification. So, I think that would correlate to an good 1580 to 1600 grains for a 1.025"-ish RB.... hmmmm. I agree Daryl 6.6 drams is on the light side but the gun only weighs 8 pounds. I intend to chrono those loads soon. We've just had lousy weather here for playing with loads.

Playing with these big bores is a hoot.


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DarylS
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #121427 - 18/12/08 05:11 AM

Guys - 6 drams should be fun in an 8 pound 4 bore gun. My 14 bore rifle was 'fun' with 6 drams in a 9 pound gun with only a 482gr. ball. Not many black powder shooters would shoot it, let alone fire a second shot for those who did. I thought it was pleasant.

Swaging or sizing a ball will not reduce it's weight as the lead is pressed inside the ball rather than shaved off. Shaving will, of course, reduce it's weight.

For large balls the the filling hole in the mould must be large enough to allow very rapid filling of the mould. Most store-bought moulds have too-small holes for making 600 or 700gr. balls or bullets, let alone 1,500gr. ones.

A clean down-spout in a bottom pound is absolutely necessary for a fast fill for heavy balls or bullets. When clean, my Lee 20 pound pot pours plenty fast, but if the lead and the filling spout in the bottom aren't really clean, dross being pulled into the vent will quickly plug the hole to reduce flow a bit. No problem with small 500gr. bullets or balls but deadly for the really big ones. A dipper with enlarged hole will work well and most likely end up being specific to large bore guns. I would dipp the big ones myself.
I have a very large pot, actually only about 6" across and about 8" deep, that holds an enormous amount of lead. I poured my 50 pound river anchor in one go with it. I think the capacity is around 70 pounds. It is simply a section of pipe with a plate welded onto the bottom, then ground round. Any friends in a welding or muffler shop? Scrap metal yards will have pieces of pipe. Oxy-acetylene will work, but a stinger is faster and probably better. For fast melting jobs of large quantities of lead, I use bricks for a support and channel for the Tiger Torch attached to a 20 pound propane bottle. It will melt 60 pounds of WW in about 5 min. This is how I reduce WW for pouring into ingots. The tiger torch isn't necessary for casting as a camp stove will work - better is a camp stove with the regulator removed - but we won't go there. Mine melts a full - big pot in 20 min. That's propane at 16psi instead of 2 psi.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #121437 - 18/12/08 07:40 AM

Darn, I wish I could devote my time to big bore acquistion, molding round balls and cast boolits, load development and hunting---and to heck with this "work thingy". Wow, what a concept! I like it!

Oh wait, I am not independently wealthy nor do I have adequate unearned income to support such a life path.... oh well, looks like I'll have to squeeze this stuff in when I can within an embarrassingly light budget too.

6 drams of powder under a 1600 grain boolit is just too much fun guys. Sell all your peeshooters and get one of these guns.


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billeastern
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Loc: New York
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #121508 - 19/12/08 01:41 AM

Yogi I am with ya there... Too many guns to shoot too little time...

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Kaimiloa
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Reged: 12/03/09
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Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #130096 - 20/03/09 02:25 PM

Billeastern, I PM'd you. Other members, if you happen to know Bill, please let him know - he hasn't been on the Forum for several months.
Thanks and aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.


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