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duckbuster
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Reged: 17/10/08
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Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice?
      #128511 - 02/03/09 11:36 AM

Hello, I'm relatively new to the forum.

I just bought a Mannlicher Schoenauer in .270, I believe it's a Model 1958. It does not have a scope mount and, of course, MSs present their own special challenge in mounting a scope. The seller, who seems quite knowledgeable, recommended either a Redfield two piece mount or a Griffin & Howe side mount. Before I start drilling new holes in the carbine, I thought I'd tap into your experience and ask for your comments and suggestions.

Also, do any of you have any recommendations of .270 loads that perform particularly well in an MS? I've had a MS M72 for 30 years and it is a legitimate MOA rifle. Can I expect that level of accuracy from the "new" one?

Thanks.

Tom


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GG375
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: duckbuster]
      #128523 - 02/03/09 05:45 PM

Hi

If the rifle is in good original condition I would spend the $$ and go for a claw mount. EAW make them. They are not cheap but are correct for a MS. Just my opinion.

Cheers.

GG


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: GG375]
      #128532 - 02/03/09 08:13 PM

Duckbuster, I am currently getting a 1930 Greek military carbine made into a custom rifle by
a gunsmith in the USA. I had the same questions as you. I also wanted the option to use an aperture sight, the gunsmith reccomends the claw mount suggested by GG375 above so thats the way I am going
best,
Mike


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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: GG375]
      #128533 - 02/03/09 08:18 PM

please do not put a redfield or anything remotly similar on this classic piece. a MS deserves good care and affection not defiling and pointless drilling, when you can have a set of claw mounts from eaw or recknagle.
remember the value on your rifle will go upwards if you get it done right, as it will plummet if done wrong.

wellcome to NE we will look forward to hearing more from you and hopefully seeing some pictures, if you have problems with posting pictures, dont hessitate to ask for help by PM or othervice.

best regards

peter


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: peter]
      #128545 - 02/03/09 11:56 PM

Peter, if I do go with the claw mounts I won't have to have the front ring encircling
the optic bell on the scope will I ? I have a horror of that when I see it unless the scope
is a 20mm when it looks the same as a normal mount. Do you know what I mean ? sorry,
difficult to put into words ??!! best, Mike


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duckbuster
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #128547 - 03/03/09 12:18 AM

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Do you have any information on the availability of the EAW or Recknagle claw mounts in the midwest, USA? Is there any way of buying these things without engaging in international commerce?

Mike, where are you attaching an aperture sight?

The rifle is still shown here: http://mannlicherschoenauer.com/used_guns.htm ; complete with its art deco stock.

Again, thanks for your interest and comments.

Tom


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peter
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: duckbuster]
      #128552 - 03/03/09 01:07 AM

mike

no, you dont need those large okular rings, most claw mounts are just like your standard rings, but with feet.

it will be good.

best

peter


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xausa
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: duckbuster]
      #128555 - 03/03/09 02:46 AM

New England Custom Gun Service furnishes and fits Recknagel mounts. www.newenglandcustomgun.com

That said, my personal preference is for the Griffin & Howe mount.

Because the scope in a claw mount has to be tipped forward when removing it from the rear base, the front ring must be fitted close to the front end of the scope. With a scope featuring an enlarged objective, the ring has to fit over the objective, which means that the scope tube has to be mounted high enough to clear the objective, the ring and the base. If the front base is mounted on the receiver ring, then the rear of the scope projects further to the rear than necessary (or safe, in the case of heavy recoil).

With a G&H mount, the rings are on the main tube of the scope, behind the enlarged objective. Because the top part of the mount can be adjusted to slide off either to the front or to the rear, the scope with an enlarged objective can be mounted almost as low as one with a straight tube. The objective does not have to clear the receiver ring when removing the scope.

My MS carbine has a Unertl Hawk 4X scope mounted with a G&H side mount, and I could not be more pleased with it.

For example, look at this MS which is fitted with claw mount rings appropriate for an enlarged objective scope, and note how much higher above the iron sight line of sight the rear ring is.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/981468442/Gun...cope_Mounts.htm

Then look at this straight tube scope, and notice how far back the ocular lens has to be to allow the scope to tip off.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/942163449/Gun...3x62_Mauser.htm

Finally look at the same rifle with the G&H mount. Actually, the scope could have been mounted even lower and further forward. With my scope, both rings are fitted behind the windage and elevation knobs.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/961627541/Gun...56_Premier.htm#


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duckbuster
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: xausa]
      #128580 - 03/03/09 06:07 AM

XAUSA,

Does the G&H mount require drilling new holes? Did you have the mount installed by G&H?

Are you near Nashville?

Thanks.


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freischuetz
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: duckbuster]
      #128584 - 03/03/09 06:49 AM

Hi

Why don’t you solder the bases on no need to drill and if you want to take the of all you have to do heat the up and remove the Bases

Look also at the EAW ( www.eaw.de ) mounts you can get from them swing of and claw mounts for any scope and gun combination. I got original soft soldered claw mounts on mine with a 1.5 x 6 Diavari no problem with removing or fitting, for very long scopes use a front mount which fits on the front bell and goes on the barrel (camber)

Claw mounts holds zero every time and take of or fitting takes 5 seconds!

Cheers

--------------------
Time is your treasure use it wisely you can never replace it


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xausa
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: duckbuster]
      #128587 - 03/03/09 07:13 AM

The G&H mount base is installed with three screws and two tapered dowel pins, which require drilling new holes. I just had one installed by G&H, although the one on my MS was on it when I bought it (likewise a .270, which I have since converted to 9.3X62).

The G&H mount is strictly a matter of taste for most people, some swear by it, some at it, mainly because of the additional holes. My thought about the holes is that at least they are not on the receiver ring, where they obscure the lettering. When you remove the scope from the base, the top of the receiver is left entirely clear and unobstructed and the return to zero is in my experience 100%.

Fitting a G&H mount will in general lower the resale value of a rifle, because they are unusual and the average buyer knows nothing about them and their advantages. I own several rifles built by G&H in the '30's, and the mounts are just as firmly attached now as on the day they were fitted.

I live about 120 miles west of Nashville, but usually am in Nashville several time a month.


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DuggaBoy
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: xausa]
      #128688 - 04/03/09 06:14 AM

DuckBuster,

In general , the recognized MS models 1900, 1903, 1905, 1908, 1910, 1924, HV, 1950, 1952,GK, NO, 1956, Magnum, 1960 MC(debated) MCA, (and of course the 1903/14/24/30 etc Greek military)

If your gun has a Monte Carlo stock you most likely have a 1956 or an MCA. The top of the front ring should indicate the model. The year of production (58) should be on the side of the barrel shank.Some European delivered guns occasionally would have stamped "Styer 1958" in small letters though not generally considered a model, only a year of production.

All MCA's and most 1956's were pre-drilled for Redfield bases. Most in this vintage also had removable receiver side plates for the G&H.(take it out of the stock and look)

The Redfield (current avg about$300) works fine and looks decent,though I do prefer a claw mount, but if it is not there ,the cost in placing one can be painful(yes, I got the T shirt)

The G&H works well as do other sidemounts.

There have been numerous mounting systems over the years, several different claws. Springer, Jaegers, Pachmyar, Stith, Williams, Leupold, Buehler, EAW, Recknagle ,etc,etc, I have owned 17 different MS rifles and carbines with 11 different mount types.

All of my guns have been good shooters with 2 being sub-MOA.

Do what works for you and you can afford ,the use the gun for a couple more generations ( I'm still shooting original 1903, 1910 etc)

DuggaBoy


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xausa
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: DuggaBoy]
      #128701 - 04/03/09 08:36 AM

Oh, and yes, the Redfield type bases are available here:

http://msbases.wattswalnut.com

I have a set like this on my converted Greek military and they seem to work fine.


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duckbuster
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: xausa]
      #128721 - 04/03/09 01:07 PM

Well, this is helpful and I appreciate it very much. Clearly I've got to do some research and make some decisions.

freischuetz, it never occurred to me that you could attach-and-remove by using solder. I'm such a prisoner of my experience -- Winchesters, Sakos, etc., make mounting a scope so easy that I've really given it too little thought.

DuggaBoy, looking at the rifle (okay, it's a carbine) it's a self proclaimed Mod. 1956, apparently manufactured in 1957, and has two holes drilled on the left side to the rear. It's bore appears to be new (as does this rifle as a whole, but I particulary prize a clean bore).

xausa, thank you for providing all of the references. I've known relatively few actual users of the G&H side mount, but all that I know have been positive about it. I asked about Nashville because my daughter and her family live there, and I'm there three or four times a year.

And to all, thank your for your interest -- I've got some great hunting and shooting buddies, but the MSs don't resonate with them as they do with me. I'm a shooter and a hunter rather than a collector, but this purchase scratches a fifty year old itch and is arguably the first rifle I've bought because of what it is, rather than why I need it. But, it'll be at the range this weekend and likely to be in the field this fall. This will be fun, pricy, but fun.

Again, thanks.

Tom


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: duckbuster]
      #128739 - 04/03/09 08:01 PM

I tell you what Tom, they certainly shoot !! The one I acquired had a "rusted pitted bore" but my
gunsmith tried it out, see the following article,


http://www.chuckhawks.com/compared_mini-14_m-s_carbine.htm

and it still shot a group 30% smaller than the new Ruger !!! I reckon yours with a good bore will be a cracker, best, Mike


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duckbuster
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #129009 - 08/03/09 02:04 PM

Well, I've made no progress in selecting a scope mount for it, but I did take the MS to the range today. I started with a hyper-technical selection of cartridges -- the cheapest .270s Cabela's sells (Federal 150 gr which seems to be heavy for caliber).

Here are a are a few observations:

(1) the excessively carved stock, which is discordant to my eye, is actually a good fit for me, and, it turns out, that the white spacers don't really detract from accuracy;

(2) I got 2 inch groups from a bench rest, centered about 2 inches high at 100 yards -- I expect to shrink that group by 50% with a scope (65 year old eyes) -- and 3 inch groups at 50 yards shooting off hand;

(3) the double set trigger is a hoot -- I haven't used one of these in 20 years and I've never hunted with one (what are your experiences hunting with them?).

Anyway, it's a shooter and a keeper. I will have to put a scope on it; I've got no chance of picking up the iron sights in poor light.

Edited by duckbuster (08/03/09 02:06 PM)


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malco
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: duckbuster]
      #137106 - 11/06/09 02:14 AM

Hello sir--How's your scope-mounting going? I didn't realize until now that nobody ever responded about hunting with set-triggers, so I'll comment based on my own experience. I've killed maybe 8 different animals with two different set-trigger rifles, one a 1924 Mannlicher with original double-set outfit and the other a modern CZ 550 with single-set. The first time I took something with the MS, I have to admit the gun went off before I wanted it to--I was prone alongside a clump of sage, the animal broadside at a hundred yards or so. I lined up the sights, set the trigger, went to shift my elbow a little and BANG--shocked like a crossed wire.

Fortunately the sights were still lined up. The prongbuck dropped like a stone, flopped around for maybe five seconds and died. But this was a sobering illustration of several critical things, chief among them Jeff Cooper's Rule 3--Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. That was the first time I've had a gun "go off by itself," and I fully intend that it's the last time as well. I've since conditioned myself to stay way off the trigger--even in bitter cold, or after high exertion, or when sighting on a really good buck. That first mishap increased my objectivity by a huge margin, even in the heat of the moment.

Part and parcel of this is practice, practice, practice. I try to punch as much paper as I can, not merely from the bench but offhand, seated position, standing with a rest, etc. Get your mind and your muscle memory fully conditioned to that feather-light trigger, and keep them that way.

Also, assuming you hunt in cold weather, figure out your gloves way in advance of hunting season. I watched a friend flub a really good chance on a huge muley buck because his gloved finger tripped his single-set before he intended to shoot. I've landed on either fingerless gloves or hinged mittens as my own solution, and haven't had a problem. Two years ago a killed a buck offhand on a brutally cold day with the Mannlicher, wearing said mittens.

The only other thing I can think of is to practice de-activating the set-trigger should the need arise in the field--I do this by pointing the gun at the ground, making sure the safety is on, and pulling the trigger. The other solution would be to lift the bolt out of battery and then pull the trigger.

Good luck with your rifle, and good luck in the field.
Best,
Malcolm


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nhdblfan
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: malco]
      #143305 - 08/10/09 01:43 AM

This has been a very good thread and I have been following it with great interest as I am getting ready to scope a 1903 I have (I was toying with another thread but thought there is lots of good info in this one):



Here are the pictures of the mount for it,not orginal to the gun but it will work( it says "-63B" on the rail.






What kind/brand scope and rings would you suggest I looks for?
Happy to provide better pictures and info of course.
Mnay thanks

Edited by nhdblfan (08/10/09 01:51 AM)


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FrankS
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: nhdblfan]
      #143383 - 09/10/09 05:31 PM

I might be wrong, but the 63B base shown if I remember correctly is the one used on the marlin 1894,1895, 336 variations of the marlin lever action rifles. Hope this helps. Frank

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xausa
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: nhdblfan]
      #143390 - 10/10/09 12:41 AM

Hard to tell from the photo, but what you have looks like a Weaver base which has been altered to fit the claw mount bases. Do Weaver rings fit it?

Impressive improvisation if it works.


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nhdblfan
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: xausa]
      #143393 - 10/10/09 01:20 AM

Hi,
and thank you both for the input.It does seem to be later gunsmith made up mount.I suspect the orginal mount and scope never made it into the duffle bag of the GI who liberated it.
I have not tried any bases but will order some.Would the Cross lock rings be a good way to go or should I just get some sure grip ones,and how high 1"? There is a windage adjustment on the rear of the mount.I will take some better close ups of it.
The slots in the base are 4 1/6 apart,so I should look at scopes where the ring will fit on the body section in that range then no?
thanks for the input
Dave


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Carpetsahib
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: nhdblfan]
      #143401 - 10/10/09 04:43 AM

If you wanted a really versatile scope mount, replace the Weaver base with a Picatinny rail. That would give you lots of options re. scopes, red-dot sights, whatever. The Picatinny rail will accept the same rings as the Weaver, only it provides a greater range of adjustments.

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darwinmauser
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #143593 - 13/10/09 06:25 PM

Quote:

If you wanted a really versatile scope mount, replace the Weaver base with a Picatinny rail. That would give you lots of options re. scopes, red-dot sights, whatever. The Picatinny rail will accept the same rings as the Weaver, only it provides a greater range of adjustments.





You don't think a picatinny rail would look just a tiny bit out of place on a classic Mannlicher ??


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Carpetsahib
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: darwinmauser]
      #143632 - 14/10/09 09:09 AM

No more so than a weaver rail.

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duckbuster
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Re: Any Mannlicher Schoenauer aficionados with advice? [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #144699 - 29/10/09 12:32 PM

Well, I've really enjoyed this thread and here's my status report. I used the MS this spring and summer at the range with iron sights, and then bought a Griffin & Howe mount and a Burris 3-9X scope . My MS had the removable receiver side plates for the G&H. I picked it up from my gunsmith this evening and I'll try it out on Saturday. I plan on opening Wisconsin's deer season with it on November 21.

Thanks for the help.

Tom


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