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bonanza
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Loc: South Carolina
Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #80226 - 09/06/07 08:00 AM

500,

We are really picking nits now

All actions are designed to be well above the strenght needed. It's the high stress mechanical parts like hammers and ejectors that separate the brilliant designers from the pedestrian. Take the Perazi O/U skeet shotguns. They are million round actions. With my pre-war firearms, I'm not worried about the bores, but the internals. A typical barrel will begin to wear out at about 2000 rounds. I doubt the action/ejectors will last past 2000 rounds. Take a Merkel or Chapuis on the other hand and it will probably go 5000 rounds.

Blair

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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: bonanza]
      #80230 - 09/06/07 08:31 AM

Guys, I hate to be dampening anyone's procession, but the going rate for ANY H&H hammerless in very good condition today is going to be far more than $40,000. The ones in the 30s have been altered or rebarreled, rechambered to odd calibers not used in a British double (45/70) or total rats. Hell, the price of ANY sidelock from a better British maker these days even in the medium calibers -- assuming not rebarreled and assuming a good factory reblue and re-cased (not a home redo) from Rigby, WR, Cogswell, Jeffery, etc is going to start at the $26,000 that was mentioned here in the US. Decent H&Hs are bringing $50,000 and up, and yes, some are not selling but most are. Watch the sites that list them, and watch them disapper once they are sold.
\
It is easy to say somethning is overpriced, and you may be right, but the market is what they can be sold for, 'overpriced' or not. And if these are real world selling prices, then they are not overpriced by any definition other than some of us may not want to pay the prices being asked.

"Doubles are hot" according to several of my friends who are dealers in the US that I know and respect. Prices reflect that 'heat.' Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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bonanza
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Posts: 2335
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: dnovo]
      #80240 - 09/06/07 11:01 AM

I see you specifically mentioned sidelock. Well, no kidding. A side lock large bore H&H, Purdey, Rigby, WR, etc. are quite rare to begin with.

Here is my thought on high dollar guns. When we start talking this class of rifle, either your a loaded and can afford them, but as an investor the liquidity of a $50,000 rifle is highly depended or what you have. You better hope you got it right when you purchases it.

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500Nitro
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: bonanza]
      #80242 - 09/06/07 12:46 PM

Quote:


Here is my thought on high dollar guns. When we start talking this class of rifle, either your a loaded and can afford them, but as an investor the liquidity of a $50,000 rifle is highly depended or what you have. You better hope you got it right when you purchases it.




bonanza

Once you start talking $30 - 40,000+, the people who are buying these guns are generally well off - and it's not a case of the $, it's a case of "is the gun what they want".

I've sold a few guns in the $40,000 - 90,000 range and that has been what I have found.

People who says "shit, that's overpriced" or "that's alot", well the guns aren't aimed at them so it's no point marketing them to them (and I certainly don't even bother letting some people know a certain gun is on the market regardless of how much they want one".

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Anonymous
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #80245 - 09/06/07 02:40 PM



Once you start talking $30 - 40,000+, the people who are buying these guns are generally well off - and it's not a case of the $, it's a case of "is the gun what they want".

I've sold a few guns in the $40,000 - 90,000 range and that has been what I have found.

People who says "shit, that's overpriced" or "that's alot", well the guns aren't aimed at them so it's no point marketing them to them (and I certainly don't even bother letting some people know a certain gun is on the market regardless of how much they want one".



500nitro

AMEN! I scratch my head constantly at all these grandstand hi grade DR pricing wizards on this site. Well said and so true!!

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dnovo
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Posts: 490
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: ]
      #80261 - 09/06/07 09:59 PM

H&H = Sidelock, with a handful of exceptions, and that is why I mentioned sidelocks in my pricing comments. I also find that 'name' doubles of the more 'mundane' configurations are also hot, albeit not priced like a sidelock, except perhaps for the WR droplocks.

On the other hand, the collecting types have yet to pick up on many European doubles and they can still be had quite reasonably. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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577express
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Reged: 18/02/07
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: ]
      #80266 - 10/06/07 12:44 AM

Quote:



Once you start talking $30 - 40,000+, the people who are buying these guns are generally well off - and it's not a case of the $, it's a case of "is the gun what they want".

I've sold a few guns in the $40,000 - 90,000 range and that has been what I have found.

People who says "shit, that's overpriced" or "that's alot", well the guns aren't aimed at them so it's no point marketing them to them (and I certainly don't even bother letting some people know a certain gun is on the market regardless of how much they want one".



500nitro

AMEN! I scratch my head constantly at all these grandstand hi grade DR pricing wizards on this site. Well said and so true!!





A double amen really!!!!!

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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: dnovo]
      #80275 - 10/06/07 05:41 AM

Quote:

H&H = Sidelock, with a handful of exceptions, and that is why I mentioned sidelocks in my pricing comments. I also find that 'name' doubles of the more 'mundane' configurations are also hot, albeit not priced like a sidelock, except perhaps for the WR droplocks.

On the other hand, the collecting types have yet to pick up on many European doubles and they can still be had quite reasonably. Dave




Dave

And certainly nothing wrong with "some" of the Europea doubles.

The knack is to be ahead of the pack !

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500Nitro
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 577express]
      #80276 - 10/06/07 05:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:



Once you start talking $30 - 40,000+, the people who are buying these guns are generally well off - and it's not a case of the $, it's a case of "is the gun what they want".

I've sold a few guns in the $40,000 - 90,000 range and that has been what I have found.

People who says "shit, that's overpriced" or "that's alot", well the guns aren't aimed at them so it's no point marketing them to them (and I certainly don't even bother letting some people know a certain gun is on the market regardless of how much they want one".



500nitro

AMEN! I scratch my head constantly at all these grandstand hi grade DR pricing wizards on this site. Well said and so true!!




A double amen really!!!!!




577 and Sinner


Thanks

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400NitroExpress
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Posts: 1154
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: ]
      #80373 - 12/06/07 03:55 AM

Quote:

I guess you win a browine button then, it should look cute on your hunting sweater.



My last two posts were in response to a question from 577 Express, not you. I gave him an honest answer based on experience and observation. You are free to debate the issue from an informed position, or you can make snide remarks from ignorance. It appears that you're only capable of the latter.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: dnovo]
      #80376 - 12/06/07 04:16 AM

Quote:

Guys, I hate to be dampening anyone's procession, but the going rate for ANY H&H hammerless in very good condition today is going to be far more than $40,000.



That simply isn't true. Would a boxlock Holland DR have a FMV of $40,000? A Dominion? Of course not.

BassProshops has had a Dominion .465 for sale for the better part of two years. It's a decent refurbish (including re-colorhardening) of a fairly early .465 (SN19077), and has nice bores. I looked at it 18 months ago when they wanted $49,999 for it. They couldn't sell it for that. They finally sold it a few weeks ago for $14,000 less. Christie's just sold a nice original Dominion .465 for $26,000. Where is this "far more than $40,000" coming from? It certainly isn't reality.

George Caswell, who has been active in the pre-war British DR market longer than anyone I know, says a nice .465 Dominion should bring $30,000 to $32,000, and that nice Royals in that caliber will start $20,000 higher. In my observation, he's right. The .375s will bring less.

A "working gun" like the Dominion isn't a "best", nor did the maker ever represent it as such. There is a big difference in price.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Edited by 400NitroExpress (12/06/07 04:18 AM)

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Anonymous
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #80377 - 12/06/07 04:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I guess you win a browine button then, it should look cute on your hunting sweater.



My last two posts were in response to a question from 577 Express, not you. I gave him an honest answer based on experience and observation. You are free to debate the issue from an informed position, or you can make snide remarks from ignorance. It appears that you're only capable of the latter.




Not to bitch to much, but you quoted me too with your vast experience DR pricing babble LAST TIME. This thread is now RIP.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: ]
      #80382 - 12/06/07 04:56 AM

Quote:

Not to bitch to much, but you quoted me too with your vast experience DR pricing babble LAST TIME, & It's pretty obviuos you don't know much about hi end double rifles BTW. This thread is now RIP.



I've quoted you only with respect to your insult, nothing else. You obviously have a reading comprehension problem.

As for your expertise, you can't even tell the difference between an early teens Dominion and one from the '30s, as you demonstrated above. Typical pretender gaffe.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #80386 - 12/06/07 05:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Not to bitch to much, but you quoted me too with your vast experience DR pricing babble LAST TIME, & It's pretty obviuos you don't know much about hi end double rifles BTW. This thread is now RIP.



I've quoted you only with respect to your insult, nothing else. You obviously have a reading comprehension problem.

As for your expertise, you can't even tell the difference between an early teens Dominion and one from the '30s, as you demonstrated above. Typical pretender gaffe.



God that's funny "pretender"! I have yet to see one of your $50k guns posted on this site.

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577express
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Reged: 18/02/07
Posts: 67
Loc: U.S.
Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #80390 - 12/06/07 06:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Not to bitch to much, but you quoted me too with your vast experience DR pricing babble LAST TIME, & It's pretty obviuos you don't know much about hi end double rifles BTW. This thread is now RIP.



I've quoted you only with respect to your insult, nothing else. You obviously have a reading comprehension problem.

As for your expertise, you can't even tell the difference between an early teens Dominion and one from the '30s, as you demonstrated above. Typical pretender gaffe.



400nitro
your being quite foolish exchanging blows here. imho "sinner" is one of the largest buyers/collectors in the world of double rifles and hi grade shotguns i know because i have bought from him. he supplies many of the big gunshops around the world with his guns. can you say ooops? these forums can get you in trouble sometimes proceed with caution. if you knew his real name you would poop yourself dry.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 577express]
      #80393 - 12/06/07 06:28 AM

Quote:

400nitro
your being quite foolish exchanging blows here.



Hey, he attacked me, not the other way round.

Quote:

can you say ooops?



No need to.

Quote:

these forums can get you in trouble sometimes proceed with caution.



That'll be the day.

Quote:

if you knew his real name you would poop yourself dry.



I know who he is. Money can't buy knowledge. He can't engage in a debate here from an informed position because he doesn't have it, so he just hurls insults. He's also demonstrated that money can't buy class either.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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577express
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Reged: 18/02/07
Posts: 67
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #80395 - 12/06/07 06:57 AM





Hey, he attacked me, not the other way round.


-Wrong. He posted some references to some pricing questions I had and you started hurling quotes a 1/3 less accross the board. Thats just rude imho.

Quote:

these forums can get you in trouble sometimes proceed with caution.



That'll be the day.

-You really are being stupid now.

Quote:

if you knew his real name you would poop yourself dry.



I know who he is. Money can't buy knowledge. He can't engage in a debate here from an informed position because he doesn't have it, so he just hurls insults. He's also demonstrated that money can't buy class either.



-You do? I'm very surprised you would proceed then. Who are you and what gives you this amazing background in gun knowledge, just curious? Maybe I could learn from you? judging by the guns sinner purchases I would say he has plenty of class just no patients for BS artists.

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500Nitro
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 577express]
      #80397 - 12/06/07 07:15 AM


Guys,

Although after my rant the other day, this may come as
a bit of a joke but I can't see this going anywhere.


When it comes to pricing of DR's, ESPECIALLY OLDER English or Vintage DR's,

- everyone who wants one says they are too expessive
and as a result, never get into the market, at the same time pricing increases on a yearly basis.
- most of the buyers don't get into one as they are afraid of making a mistake !
- every buyer reckons the seller is asking too much / over the top.
- buyers always try to talk down te price of DR's - and then reaise when they become a seller what they have done !
- inexperienced buyers pick the shit out of guns other people are selling when they have no intention of buying it
and this can work both ways !
- a lot of DR's are sold "off market" so never get advertised, a quiet phone call, quick email etc etc
- those buyers who "crunch" the sellers and get known for it don't get offered guns when they come on the market and so end up missing out of alot of good buys.
- buyers of high end doubles generally do not let in known that they are a buyer and in the market - tending to conduct the business "on the quiet !

And IMHO, if you think it's priced too high, then the DR that is for sale is not aimed at you so don't wory about it.

Just my HO for today !

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 577express]
      #80402 - 12/06/07 07:34 AM

Quote:


Quote:

Hey, he attacked me, not the other way round.




-Wrong. He posted some references to some pricing questions I had and you started hurling quotes a 1/3 less accross the board. Thats just rude imho.



Not in the slightest. You posted a question here that I answered honestly, giving the recent trades I've seen. Sorry if some took it otherwise, but that isn't rude - it's just an observation of the trades I've seen. Anyone who finds that rude is easily offended. He chose to become rude, not me, and there was no need for that. If he disagreed, all he had to do was offer contradicting comparables, if he has them. That's what these boards are about. He resorted to snide remarks instead.

Quote:

Quote:

I know who he is. Money can't buy knowledge. He can't engage in a debate here from an informed position because he doesn't have it, so he just hurls insults. He's also demonstrated that money can't buy class either.



-You do? I'm very surprised you would proceed then. Who are you and what gives you this amazing background in gun knowledge, just curious? Maybe I could learn from you? judging by the guns sinner purchases I would say he has plenty of class just no patients for BS artists.



Gee, I guess Sinner's gurus must be the "experts" at Basspro. What a howl.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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dnovo
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #80405 - 12/06/07 08:37 AM

Geez, I'm sorry I opened this part of the thread! I shoot to relax and collect for the same reason. I am passionate about my guns, but recognize that this passion should be reined in when it starts to get personal. This thread has turned in that direction, and perhaps we should just agree to disagree?

I will, however, stand by my observation that H&H and Purdeys and a few other British "top" makers, especially post WWI, are priced in the stratosphere and out of proportion to other contemporary makers. That is not shocking to me since in many areas, you may pay for 'the name' and pay more than you would for another product equally well built or functional. I also agree that many top guns may sell 'off line' and not in auction or at a website. I have been collecting Sharps for many years and virtually all of the finest Sharps in top condition are sold by owners to other long-standing collectors or through dealers who have sold them to the seller and know other long-standing collectors who are a ready market. I have acquired several very nice doubles in this fashion, a call from another collector or a call from a dealer who gets a call from a client who wants to sell a rifle he bought from the dealer back and now asks him to find it 'a new home.'

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (12/06/07 08:40 AM)

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577express
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Reged: 18/02/07
Posts: 67
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #80406 - 12/06/07 08:57 AM





Gee, I guess Sinner's gurus must be the "experts" at Basspro. What a howl.



now your attacking basspro? what do they have to do with this? that doesn't even make any sence.

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577express
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: ]
      #80407 - 12/06/07 08:58 AM

Quote:

Holland & Holland – London. Dominion 500/465 Sidelock Ejector Double Rifle

Scarce H&H Dominion 500/465 Sidelock Ejector Double Rifle. 24” chopperlump ejector barrels with extended 3rd bite, quarter rib with 1 standing fixed blade and 2 folding, font ramped sight with flip up moon bead and hooded feature, gold cocking indicators, highly figured pistol grip stock with shadowed cheekpiece, grip cap, factory slings, 1” old English pad, 14 ¾” LOP, double triggers, splinter forend with push release, perfect bores, manufactured 1909, 10lbs. 4ozs.









umm getting back to what this website is all about, this is one fine rifle!

Edited by DRarchive (29/07/08 08:47 PM)

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gatsby
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 577express]
      #80408 - 12/06/07 09:25 AM

577,
If you don't want to discuss prices, don't bring it up in an open forum. I think you were the first one to mention pricing (and I think you have done it on another one of Sinners postings) and maybe that is a disservice to Sinner who may only have wanted to post his gun. Price is always a topic of conversation when I talk with other collectors but I wouldn't be the first to ask on an open forum nor object to differing opinions if it were brought up. Prices certainly aren't fixed and ultimately each individual gun has to judged on its own merits. I like spirited discussion but can do without the inflamatory adjectives. It is a nice Holland.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (12/06/07 09:44 AM)

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 577express]
      #80468 - 13/06/07 07:23 AM

Quote:





Gee, I guess Sinner's gurus must be the "experts" at Basspro. What a howl.



now your attacking basspro? what do they have to do with this? that doesn't even make any sence.



Maybe you should re-read the string. Sinner bought the rifle that he posted above from BassPro. It was on their web site until last Friday. Same rifle. I wrote down the serial number when I looked at it.

Sinner's gaffe of accusing me of quoting him when I was quoting you, among other things about this thread, is, I think, more than coincidence. It seems pretty straightforward that 577 Express and Sinner are the same person.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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577express
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Reged: 18/02/07
Posts: 67
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Re: Holland & Holland 500/465 Dominion Double Rifle [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #80474 - 13/06/07 08:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:





Gee, I guess Sinner's gurus must be the "experts" at Basspro. What a howl.



now your attacking basspro? what do they have to do with this? that doesn't even make any sence.



Maybe you should re-read the string. Sinner bought the rifle that he posted above from BassPro. It was on their web site until last Friday. Same rifle. I wrote down the serial number when I looked at it.

Sinner's gaffe of accusing me of quoting him when I was quoting you, among other things about this thread, is, I think, more than coincidence. It seems pretty straightforward that 577 Express and Sinner are the same person.



excuse me? I'm not sinner! Haha! what a goof! bother someone else would ya. and sinner if your out there please send me some guns to post quick!

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