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Marrakai
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Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion....
      #12288 - 23/03/04 11:55 PM

There have been several threads lately, here and on other forums, discussing the preferred calibres or chamberings for newly-constructed double rifles. Of course the various .400s, .450/.458s, and .470/.500s are all viable options, and a range of even bigger wild-cats is fast becoming popular with the modern big-bore fan. Amongst all this, there is one cartridge which has been largely overlooked, ignored by contemporary gun-writers, and scorned by the magnum snobs. It is however a simply marvellous chambering, a prime candidate for the modern double or big-bore single, and a genuine practical alternative to the shoulder-crunching muzzle-blasters at the upper end of the big-bore range. Since acquiring an example myself not long ago, it is fast becoming one of my favourites. It is....

the .577 x 2 3/4 Light Nitro!

Points in its favour are numerous IMHO. Here's how I see it:

This will come as a surprise to most, however even at the lowest MV, it shoots ABSOLUTELY FLAT at practical big-game hunting distances. Despite its big round nose, the Woodleigh 650-grain soft-point still manages a .32 BC. Sighted dead-on at around 90 yards, the trajectory never deviates more than ONE INCH from the line of sight out to 100 yards and slightly beyond. The drop at 150 yds, a practical maximum, is only 6 inches. Just point and shoot!




With the new Woodleigh 650-grain FMJ solids, penetration is simply unbelievable. These projectiles may look stubby, but they still boast a Sectional Density of .27, and the heavy steel jacket simply will not deform. Even with hardened lead and black-powder, the likes of Samuel Baker regularly raked big buffalo bulls 'from stem to stern' with identical ballistics more than a century ago.

The rifles can be made to weigh a comfortable 10 to 11 pounds, no heavier than standard .400 to .470 doubles, and are quite comfortable to carry and shoot. They can be regulated for any load between 1650 and 1950 fps, depending on the owner's recoil tolerance and energy requirements. There is no factory ammunition, so they will always be a reloading concern, hence no chance of a mix-up. Top-quality components are readily available.

Even at a low 1665 fps MV, the Taylor Knock-Out factor is still a whopping 90 values, ranging up over 105 for the higher velocities!

Only for big elephants could this cartridge be considered marginal, but how many double-rifle aficionados these days are genuinely likely to seek conclusions with jumbo? For everything else on earth, the .577 Light Nitro is perfectly adequate, and satisfyingly overkill for most! Regarding the 'Gee Whiz' factor at the local club, it is STILL a .577 Nitro, but without the enormous weight and recoil which robs the shooter of much of the pleasure he should be getting from his new toy. A well-made .577 Light Nitro double is an absolute joy to shoot!

Although Craig Boddington comprehensively canned this cartridge in his 'Safari Rifles', ("velocity is low and energy just 5,500 ftlbs (huh!?!) ...the 650-grain bullet does not stack up."), 'Pondoro' Taylor gave it a pretty good wrap in 'African Rifles and Cartridges'. Speaking of the 75-grain Cordite load:

"Using the solid hard lead bullet I have killed elephant and buffalo, but of course, only with heart and lung shots. If I was concentrating on tiger or man-eating lion, I shouldn't hesitate: I would almost certainly have a double .577 built to handle the modern .577/75/650 load."

...and although he lacked personal experience with the 90-grain load:

"Theoretically, it should be a very effective weapon for close-range work, (and) with modern steels could be built very light for a weapon of that power."

We now have better bullets, better brass, and better barrel steel than ever before. If I were to commission a new rifle like the Searcy tomorrow, I would unhesitatingly specify an 11-pound .577 x 2 3/4 Light Nitro regulated for the 650-grain bullet at 1850 fps, and it would give me great pleasure to wear it out on our local buffalo population! (...with the odd African excursion if finances permit!)

*************************

I realise I will now be branded an eccentric at best (guilty as charged!), however I am not trying to start any arguments or 'pissing contests' with this post. It is simply an attempt to rectify the decades of unjustified neglect suffered by this marvellous cartridge, whose day may finally have come, and perhaps to stimulate a tiny seed of interest in the minds of those who may be contemplating a new double in the near future. The full-nitro.577 is quite simply too much gun for fun at the range or regular practice in the woods, but the Light Nitro version might just be today's perfect big-bore!


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: Marrakai]
      #12298 - 24/03/04 02:04 AM

Tony

Well written post. Your argument is good news to me. I very much hope to emulate your "fat boy" (or "fat lady") with a fattie of my own. (If only the bloody shotgun would arrive !!)

"the trajectory never deviates more than ONE INCH from the line of sight out to 100 yards and slightly beyond"


Wow, especially as a .577 covers 60% of that difference anyway!

So you went for a velocity of about 1650 fps (650 grains) for recoil comfort reasons? Do you think a Greener Empire could take an 1850 fps regulation load?


Mate, I hope to catch up for a beer or two around plus or minus the beginning of August (hunting the first week of Auguist and also hunting another week either before or after that - not set yet). I would very much like to fondle your "fat lady" just to put "4seventy's" mind at rest that it will balance nicely.

Any chance of a shot? Maybe a "fat lady" is too much for me.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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mickey
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: NitroX]
      #12308 - 24/03/04 05:41 AM

Tony

Great post. As the owner of a 577 3 3/4 750 and the former owner of a 577 2 3/4 650 Alex Henry (boy was that a mistake to sell) I applaud you.

My rifle is loaded to 1800 and produces a bit over 5200 ft/lbs. It is a wonder with about the same recoil as a 470. I have never loaded any rifle down but after reading some of these last post am considering it.

I think the 650 is a better choice but at the time the bullets were for BP and not worth much.

Here is a picture of an Alex Martin that is owned by a friend in RSA. He has shot thirty some Elephants with it and over 500 Cape Buffalo in Rhodesia in the 70's cropping. It is for sale but I don't know the price.



Bye the way, IMHO, if Boddington knew half as much about Doubles as he claims he would know twice as much as he does.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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475Guy
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: Marrakai]
      #12312 - 24/03/04 07:05 AM

Marrakai, just out of curiosity, will your thumper handle heavier bullets and still regulate? Will you be able to get decent velocity with the heavier bullet using your shorter barrels?

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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ThomasEdwards
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: mickey]
      #12317 - 24/03/04 07:41 AM

...i reckon that would make c.b. a 'one quarter' guy...

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nopride2
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: 475Guy]
      #12349 - 24/03/04 02:40 PM

There are a lot of 650 grain 577s reproofed for 750 grain loads. You are now shooting an eleven pound rifle that should weigh 14 pounds. The result is, they kick so hard, they knock your eyes out of focus for about a half a second.
50 rounds of this, and it lowers your IQ by 20 points. I only fired a few rounds, so I'm only slightly stupider.

Dave


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mickey
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: nopride2]
      #12351 - 24/03/04 02:54 PM

Nopride2

I disagree. I have a 577 3" also and there is substantial difference between it (at 2050fps) and the 2 3/4 at (1800fps). I would say the 2 3/4 is very close to the 470. Mine is originally chambered for the 750 grain bullet.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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mickey
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: Marrakai]
      #12352 - 24/03/04 02:57 PM

Marrakai

Can you run your program on the 650 at 1950 and the 750 at 1800?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Marrakai
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: NitroX]
      #12381 - 25/03/04 12:00 AM

Wow, thanks for all the positive responses guys. I just love this cartridge! NitroX, we'll definitely do something when you come up here in July/August. A trip to the range is a given, burning nitro by the bucket-full is always enjoyable!

Regarding maximum loads in the Greener, I am fairly conservative when it comes to wrapping my left hand around several tons of hot gas a few inches in front of my face! I believe the previous owner of this rifle was a bit more 'cavalier', I intend to winkle his highest loads out of him over a shiraz next time he visits from the UK.

I have never tried the heavier bullet in this gun. It always amuses me that the 750gr bullet is widely acclaimed for its penetration, whereas the 650gr bullet is roundly condemned for poor penetration when it is only 13.3% lighter!! Admittedly, the early 650-grainers were usually very soft for use in older BP guns, but the current range of Woodleighs includes both BP and Nitro 650s, as well as a superb steel-jacketed solid. The solid is a definite no-no in old BP guns of course, it would probably smooth out all the rifling with the first shot in those old barrels!

Mickey, you can download the Point-Blank ballistic software for free and check any load you like!

http://www.huntingnut.com/pointblank.html

Meanwhile, your wish is my command!






--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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mickey
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: Marrakai]
      #12387 - 25/03/04 02:23 AM

Neat Program, thanks.

I see that according to Taylors formula my 9.3 x 74R is good for Cape Buffalo to 500 yards. I'll deal with the 48" bullet drop with a 'New' Mil Dot reticle and adjustable turrets.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: Marrakai]
      #12388 - 25/03/04 02:57 AM

Marrakai

Great. You may have read as I BS a lot I have sourced a Greener Empire, probably for too many $$$ but .... Anyway it went missing for two weeks and I was getting worried I was being gazumped but no it turned up in the gunshop as it was there all along. So maybe later this week I will see if I purchased a mongrel or a pedigree.

In any case once the authorities do the their paper shuffling routines I will see if it will kill a few ducks before it goes to a smith to be put under the knife.


Maybe I will like it as a shotgun too much ....


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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4seventy
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: NitroX]
      #12406 - 25/03/04 08:46 AM

In reply to:

I would very much like to fondle your "fat lady" just to put "4seventy's" mind at rest that it will balance nicely.




Nice to see you're paying attention!
You can handle lots of doubles and most will feel pretty good in the feel and ballance and fit department.
Then one day you pick one up that just feels so right that you can't believe how magic it really is!
Once this happens, all other doubles you handle will be judged against this "magic" one.
I started fondling doubles in the early eighty's but the "magic" one for me didn't come along untill the late ninety's!
Since then I've been a little harder to please when it comes to buying a double that I intend to shoot a lot.


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500grains
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: 4seventy]
      #12410 - 25/03/04 11:44 AM

For me, the primary purpose of a double rifle is to shoot elephant. Therefore penetration is a very serious concern.

I would use a .577 x 2 3/4" on buffalo with good quality solids if I could choose my shot carefully. However, 1650 fps is quite marginal velocity to achieve good penetration, especially when pushing a bullet with a large cross sectional area, and with a sectional density below 0.300.

It would be a lot of fun to use a .577 x 2 3/4" on plains game such as zebra, kudu, eland and giraffe. On lion and leopard, I am sure it could kill quite effectively. However, I suspect there would be times when this cartridge would be less than optimal for elephant, hippo, buffalo and rhino because of the penetration needed on those animals. Consequently, the value of .577 x 2 3/4" vintage rifles is typically a quarter to a third that of a 577 x 3" of the same maker in equivalent condition.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: 500grains]
      #12411 - 25/03/04 11:55 AM

I note "Cartridges of the World" lumps the .577 2 3/4", 3" and 3 1/4" NE's all in the same batch. Does this mean the all deliver similar performance and velocities (750 gr /2050 fps) or is it just laziness in the books cartridge descriptions?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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500grains
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: NitroX]
      #12414 - 25/03/04 12:04 PM

Cartridges of the World is replete with technical and factual errors. I suspect that lumping them all together was a combination of laziness and ignorance on the part of the author. The 577 x 2 3/4" was considered a fine tiger gun for India, but the fellows planning on hunting elephant in Africa took the 3".

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nopride2
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: mickey]
      #12428 - 25/03/04 02:49 PM

Mickey

My point is, an 11 pound rifle built for the 650 grain load, reproved and firing a 750 grain bullet at 2000 FPS. Not pleasant to shoot.

Dave


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mickey
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: nopride2]
      #12429 - 25/03/04 03:27 PM

Dave

You can't get 2000 fps with a 750 grain bullet out of a 2 3/4" case. If you could jam in enough powder the pressure would be so high that it would never pass proof.

I know of one fellow shooting 750 grain bullets out of his 650 rifle. He says it is accurate although at close range it is more likely to be just accurate enough.

My 750 grain only shoots at 1800fps while my 3" shoots at 2050.

Bye the way my 3" is a 10.5 lb. rifle and you are right, it is a real handful. Actually both hands full. I would rather it was like that though than to pack an additional 4 lbs around in 100 degree heat.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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Marrakai
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: 4seventy]
      #12453 - 26/03/04 12:33 AM

4seventy:
NitroX's first double is a 24-inch barrelled Jeffery, so I don't think he need look any further for 'magic' handling qualities! Its all downhill from there!
..............

When I passed the comment that the .577 x 2 3/4 is a cartridge whose day may finally have come, I had in mind two important factors which render all the old rhetoric obsolete. They are:

1. Newly made doubles (like the Searcy), with modern steel, made to the customer's weight and power requirements. We are no longer bound to 1650 fps like the old 'nitro-for-black' loadings, or a specific factory load, anything up to 1950 fps (or more?!) can be regulated by the manufacturer on demand.

2. The two new Woodleigh bullets (Catalogue Nos. 3A and 4A). Never before (to my knowledge) has a 650-grain bonded-core bullet been offered with the thick jacket , and if Kynoch ever made a steel-jacketed solid in 650-grain with a reinforced nose, they are too rare to shoot today. With these new bullets, the old penetration prejudices simply no longer hold.

These new rifles and bullets extend the usefulness of the .577 Light Nitro way beyond that ever envisaged by the British gun trade a century ago. Over 5,000 ftlbs of ME, with bonded-core softs or steel-jacketed solids, has definitely moved this cartridge up from the realm of a 'good tiger/lion gun' to a versatile modern big-bore and perhaps the perfect buffalo gun. For the 99.99% of us who will never pull the trigger on an elephant or rhino, I reckon this chambering is worth very serious consideration!


Woodleigh 650-grain .577 Weldcores recovered from buffalo:
Left: CatNo.5 (for BP), Right: CatNo.3A (for Nitro)



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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4seventy
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: Marrakai]
      #12569 - 27/03/04 08:42 AM

Marrakai,
Yes, I have no doubt at all that the cartridge in question loaded with those Woodleighs will make a very impressive buff killer.
The point I was trying to make is that some shotgun to double conversions handle very well while others don't.
That old 444 would be a classic example on how something can resemble a double rifle but handle like a double decker bus!
I'm just a bit wary on building guns from scratch as you often never know what they will handle like untill the job is completed.


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docEE
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: 4seventy]
      #12749 - 29/03/04 09:19 AM

When I'm doing recoil calculations in my spare time, I will need some powder weights for these beasts. How many grains of powder in the .577 x 2-3/4" vs the full-length version?

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475Guy
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: docEE]
      #12754 - 29/03/04 11:28 AM

I believe that Mick has posted 132gr 4831 w/650 gr bullet in the 2 3/4" and 140 gr 4831 w/750 gr bullet in the 3" .

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Edited by 475Guy (29/03/04 03:45 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: 475Guy]
      #12757 - 29/03/04 01:32 PM

Use the search function

Reloading for doubles ... forum

6 months

keyword 577

It brings up several entries.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Marrakai
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: mickey]
      #12772 - 29/03/04 08:32 PM

Mickey:
If you would like the Woodleigh Bullet data to be available to Point-Blank on your computer, download the following file from my area. Best to temporarily re-name your existing copy of Bullets.txt in case the formatting stuffs up or something, then save the downloaded file as Bullets.txt into the same directory. The file still has a couple of blanks for BC and SD, I think Woodleigh published the wrong numbers on their web-site so I left them out for now.

Enjoy...!

http://www.hotkey.net.au/~orrs/Bullets.txt

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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470Rigby
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: NitroX]
      #12890 - 01/04/04 11:49 PM

Nitro –Why settle on the .577 x 23/4 inch case, thus putting yourself in a straight jacket pressure-wise because of it’s lower powder capacity?

Since Bertram Brass sells 31/4 inch cases, why not go a step further than 3 inches, and utilize the extra case capacity to further minimise pressure if there is a concern about action strength. Alternatively, if the Greener action will handle it, the longer case may allow use of the more effective 750 grain pill and/or higher velocities than is possible out of the 23/4 inch case?

The 31/4 inch case length was used in both Black Powder and Full Nitro loads, but became obsolete very early on; the Nitro round loosing out to the 3 inch, perhaps because the rifles of the day were “built from the ground up” to handle it?

The Black Powder round was quite a rare – examples are harder to find than rifles chambered for it. I once had a Jeffery boxlock in this chambering (to this day I regret selling it!), and I have seen two others, a boxlock and a Jones underlever hammer gun – also Jeffery’s! Perhaps this cartridge was a Jeffery development? If so, this would be counter to Wal Winfer’s theory that .577 was one bore size that Jeffery didn’t work on (see British Single Shot Rifles, Vol 3, pp 213). All three guns had Black Powder proof markings, but before 1925 when Nitro Proof became mandatory, it was not unknown for guns built to “full nitro” proportions to carry Black Powder proof marks. Curiously, none of these Jeffery’s regulated with 650 grain pills, but all shot with 750 grainers, perhaps adding further weight to the possibility that they were in fact, Nitro rifles?

I developed duplex nitro/black loads with 750 grain lubed cast lead projectiles for my rifle that came close to duplicating the ballistics of the “full nitro” .577 x 3 in round, with very acceptable pressures. Jacketed pills would give even lower pressures, as would full nitro loads.

Another avenue to achieving better .577 calibre ballistics via larger case capacity might be the 577 Rewa – essentially a necked down 600 Nitro. This round was designed by Holland & Holland in the late 1920’s for the Maharaja of Rewa, who was disappointed with the performance of the 600 Nitro, and wanted the improved penetration of the .577 projectile.

When building a .577 double rifle on a 12 bore action, available chamber wall thickness (dictated by standing breech dimensions) would determine which case type would be appropriate. Personally, if this was my project, I would get hold of one of the Spanish Zabala 10 bore shotguns, and work with that!

Remember, you always have the option of easing back on the throttle if you want lighter loads for range practice or lighter game!


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Marrakai
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Re: Best Double Rifle Chambering? An opinion.... [Re: 470Rigby]
      #12941 - 02/04/04 06:52 PM

470Rigby:
A couple of very good points there, however I would be worried that some fool would eventually load a 3-inch full-nitro load into the long chamber and blast the whole deal to rags! Much less risk with the 2 3/4 inch chamber.

Quote:
"I developed duplex nitro/black loads with 750 grain lubed cast lead projectiles .... Jacketed pills would give even lower pressures, as would full nitro loads."

Fair dinkum? Jacketed projectiles give lower pressures than lead? Never having tested them, I always thought it would be the other way 'round. You sure 'bout this? A published source would help convince me....

I looked very closely at the Zabala 10-bore. They are a lighter action than the Greener 'Empire', the weight is simply a load of lead in the stock. The 10-bore Zabala is about 3mm NARROWER across the standing breech than a 12-bore 'Empire'. Surprised me too! Not bad value as a cheap 10-bore shottie though, the last lot were under a grand new.







--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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