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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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Mike_McGuire
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Origins of the Double Rifle??
      #73696 - 12/03/07 03:49 PM

I was discussing the origins of the double rifle with a mate of mine today, but we have no idea as to whether our ideas are correct..or even close

We were thinking that the idea of two barrels originated as a method to get a repeater, probably from muzzle loading days. As time moved on and the repeater became available those repeaters were not able to handle the very large cartridges.

The value of the double rifle as a DG gun was not part of the original design but rather something that became obvious at a later date, that is, when being compared to bolt actions.

Mike


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Origins of the Double Rifle?? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #73798 - 14/03/07 05:54 AM

Quote:

I was discussing the origins of the double rifle with a mate of mine today, but we have no idea as to whether our ideas are correct..or even close

We were thinking that the idea of two barrels originated as a method to get a repeater, probably from muzzle loading days.




Most think the muzzle loading double shotgun, was first, but IMO, that is backwards! I believe it is more likely that the first doubles were smooth bore muskets, that were primarily intended for ball, than shot, though both were used. It is more likely the double muskets were loaded and carried with ball, than with shot, because you would have need of a second quick shot for large animals than you would with birds, or small game, and the ball would act as protection against enemies better than shot! One of the first double RIFLES was an American thing in the form of a swivel barreled flint lock RIFLE, used in the colonies for hunting, and protection frm Indians. Many of the shotguns of that time were single barrels.



Quote:

As time moved on and the repeater became available those repeaters were not able to handle the very large cartridges.

The value of the double rifle as a DG gun was not part of the original design but rather something that became obvious at a later date, that is, when being compared to bolt actions.





I think the double rifle came along long before the repeaters, and by the time the Percussion cap took over from the flintlock, most double rifles were no longer seen much, because of the speed of loading, and the comparitively long range of the long rifles. War weapons were still smooth bore till around the civil war in the colonies, and the big single shots had gone to the cape of good hope settlers in Africa, and india. These were very large bore guns, for very large animals in Africa, and in the colonies, we didn't need any thing other than a rifle that would kill a moose, or bear, and that could usually be done at longer range, so the single barrels cought hold here in the states, while The Britts started to buils double rifle, for the INDIA, and AFRICA holdings, where very large dangerous aniimals, and spear yealding locals were a worry!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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unspellable
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Re: Origins of the Double Rifle?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #73906 - 15/03/07 10:02 AM

The double rifle long predates the shotgun in any form. There are many examples of flintlock double rifles while the true shotgun did not appear until the percussion lock.

Prior to the percussion lock there were “fowlers”, smooth bored guns used for ducks and the like. The technique was to hide in a blind and shoot at sitting ducks. The pan flash gave warning to the birds and precluded effective wing shooting. The guns had long barrels, were heavy and unbalanced since handling was not an important consideration.

With the advent of the percussion lock wing shooting became practical and the true shotgun was developed with its balance and fast handling qualities.

As for single barrel vs double barrel, it was mostly a matter of money. The British (or Continental) hunter was likely to be well heeled and able to pay for the double. Here in America, the common man was doing the bulk of the hunting and the single barrel fit the bill. The double shotgun appeared to some extent because they are inherently cheaper in the lower grades than a regulated double rifle. Almost all the American made muzzle loading double rifles I have seen were turn barrels whch are not usually considered to be a true double rifle.

There is a miss-perception that the double rifle was developed only for big game. They were developed for all classes of shooting from rooks to elephants. The “Express Rifle” was originally developed for deer sized game, not big game. It was not suitable for big game until after the advent of smokeless by which time the term “express” had lost its original meaning and was only an ad copy writer’s term any way. Prior to, and during the advent of the “express rifle” only black powder was available and big game rifles got their horse power from VERY large bores rather than express velocities.

The turn bolt rifle first appeared as a military weapon and the spread into the sporting field. It’s true the turn bolt cannot handle the cartridge length the double can and it was not until the wide spread use of smokeless that the turn bolt could pack enough horse power into the limited case length to compete in the big game field. (Big game meaning the kind that might turn the tables, deer are "buck", not big game.)

BTW: The term “express rifle” originally meant a breech loading rifle firing a very large charge of black powder behind a light for caliber bullet to produce velocities in of 1700 fps or more. The bullets were typically fitted with wings to fit deep two or four groove rifling to prevent stripping. They were often of 0.50 caliber or so, and with the light bullet, were in the deer sized game class.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Origins of the Double Rifle?? [Re: unspellable]
      #73928 - 15/03/07 02:32 PM

Quote:

Very well written, and informative. Lots of good info in that post, though some pritty wide gaps in the time lines.

Speaking of the Express rifles not being for dangerous game,I have one of these made in 1892, a Westley Richards,black powder, 500/450#1 Express, and it was made specially, for red deer hunting!


That the early muzzle loader doubles were deer rifles, as well, is true in the UK, and Europe, but in the Colonies most people had only one gun for everything, from protecting the home, to hunting, and for fighting Indians. Same with the settlers on the Cape of Good Hope, Even the flint lock swivel barreled doubles, used here, were not made in the UK, or Europe, but most made in little gun shops all over the WILDERNESS, as everything west of the eastern shore colonies, was called.

Those rifles were used for everything, and foweling pieces were definetly in evidence, and most rifles larger than 50 cal were smooth bore BALL/SHOT GUNS,And there many examples S/S flintlock double shotguns, but I've never seen a ventage s/s flintlock double rifle, made in the us, or UK. The swivel barreled RIFLES were swivels because nobody had discovered that regulation was necessary yet, for a rifle, and in a shotgun it didn't matter that much.


The barrels were simply swiveled to the top,on the rifles, so it's seperate sights could be used. When Tennessee was the wild forntier, there was a thriveing gun business for Pennsilvania made long rifles, of which about 1 in 40 were flintlock swivel barreld double rifles. That second barrel was a life saver in a conflict with Indians, or a Grzzley. Once the percussion cap took over, the doubles were just about a thing of the past, in the US. Shortly after the Britts started building double rifles for hunting, of what they had there, and none of it was dangerous, and there were no Indians to fight. The Brittish army had always use large bore smooth bored muskets for war fare, and that didn't change, but the stagg hunters wanted small, light, fast handleing rifles for the deer, and the double simply made sense.





Edited by DUGABOY1 (15/03/07 02:38 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Origins of the Double Rifle?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #74104 - 18/03/07 03:57 AM

The great advantages of having a "repeater" over a single barrelled rifle are so obvious, before the invention of true "repeater" rifles.

As has been said above many early DRs were in medium sized calibres for medium sized game.

With more modern bolt action (and other) designs in smaller and medium calibres offering multiple shots, the DR in heavy calibres came into its own where the second shot being instantly available became more important for dangerous game hunting. The reason they are again growing in popularity today with 'relatively' cheaper modern made DRs available to the average 'heeled' hunter.

Still haven't been replaced as an ideal for close fast hunting of running game, with the balance of a shotgun, or for closer action on dangerous game.

JMOs.

Great thread and comments in the thread above.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Mike_McGuire
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Reged: 11/06/05
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Re: Origins of the Double Rifle?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #74135 - 18/03/07 08:52 PM

Fellows,

Thanks for posting the info

Mike


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oupa
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Re: Origins of the Double Rifle?? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #74246 - 21/03/07 01:33 PM

I remember a series of magazine articles many years ago on the guns of the (American) pioneers. The writer pointed out that most of the ML shotguns had the muzzles cut at a very slight angle from center to outward edge. It was surmised this was to facilitate something akin to "regulating" the guns for use with balls. Many of these people moving west with only those belongings fitting in a wagon (or less!) didn't have room for various guns even if they were affordable or available. Hence they choose a double shotgun offering two shots without reloading and could use shot or ball.

The number of different guns shown with documented history to the trek west seemed to endorse this idea. I sure wish I had those magazines today for reference but if this was true it's sure the idea had been around long before then.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Origins of the Double Rifle?? [Re: NitroX]
      #74379 - 23/03/07 03:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The great advantages of having a "repeater" over a single barrelled rifle are so obvious, before the invention of true "repeater" rifles.

As has been said above many early DRs were in medium sized calibres for medium sized game.

With more modern bolt action (and other) designs in smaller and medium calibres offering multiple shots, the DR in heavy calibres came into its own where the second shot being instantly available became more important for dangerous game hunting. The reason they are again growing in popularity today with 'relatively' cheaper modern made DRs available to the average 'heeled' hunter.

Still haven't been replaced as an ideal for close fast hunting of running game, with the balance of a shotgun, or for closer action on dangerous game.

JMOs.

Great thread and comments in the thread above.




All true, and in fact the calibers we consider as medium size today were considered small bore at the turn of the 20th century, and that included cartridges up to and including 500 caliber. Aas NitroX, says the double rifle was a God send to hunters in driven boar, and deer hunts, as was the double shotgun, for driven birds. Many people bought the double rifles like the 500/450#1 express, in pairs, and use loders to re-load for them on these driven hunts. Fire two rounds, trade rifles, fire two more, trade again! Talk about a repeater! I'm lucky enough to have a Westley Richards S/S hammerless double rifle, sold out of the London store in 1892, and chambered for the 500/450#1 express, with selective ejectors, and rifled with Newton rifleing that almost looks worn out, but was designed for paper patch lead 300 gr bullets.
That little rifle shoots very well, and is a real wild boar rifle, for our abundant Russian wild boar, and deer populations! Fun rifles all!

Mac >>>===(x)===>

DRSS





--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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vigillinus
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Re: Origins of the Double Rifle?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #74971 - 29/03/07 06:09 PM

I have two German double flint rifles, a SxS and an O&U, two barrels, two lock. Both about 1770 and about .65. European swivel breech double rifles show up from time to time - they did not originate in America - and in fact the Austrians had a swivel breech FL military musket, I don't recall right now whether both barrels were rifled or only one. Contrary to what one of the posts stated, double FL shotguns were used for flying birds and Joseph Manton was famous for making upland bird double flinters. A Manton double FL would be an interesting bird gun even now, they are beautifully balanced. The Brits made double FL rifles too but far fewer of them than the Germans ... but the Brits were not much as rifle shooters anyway until they began to get into India and Africa.

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