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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Bill_Cooley
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Reged: 14/12/06
Posts: 197
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Huvius]
      #111559 - 11/08/08 11:23 AM

I agree with 400NitroExpress and JPK. JPK can you believe that.
I didn't catch weather it was a new built (bespoke)rifle or a used or off the rack rifle. The problem is it dosen't fit.
Bill

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #111566 - 11/08/08 12:17 PM

So to prevent this meltdown at the worst possible moment
one should--

1)Make sure all ammo goes kerplunk fully into EACH double chamber
2)Make sure the chambers are clean and free of anything to impair cartridges
3)Make sure the action closes and the action lever closes fullly without impairment(could there have been a component of grease/grit affecting this new guns follower/lever?)
3)Make sure the rifle fits--Work on proper grip and shoulder mounting technique until it becomes instinctive
4)Shoot, open,load, and close the double at speed.

Anything else for a Double man to practice and carry away from this mishap? I really don't want to have to worry about things like this--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #111569 - 11/08/08 12:45 PM

Quote:

I agree with 400NitroExpress and JPK. JPK can you believe that.
I didn't catch weather it was a new built (bespoke)rifle or a used or off the rack rifle. The problem is it dosen't fit.
Bill



It is a new, off the rack rifle.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #111677 - 13/08/08 05:46 AM

Sorry, but been reading this thread and i realy doesent get it.

I cant understand how a round even if it increadeble overloaded could open the locks and then leave the gun intact?
Was it the first or the second barrel that opened the gun?
Was realy an unfired round ejected from the rifle as stated above?

If it was the second barrel that opened the gun, could he have pushed the leaver on the first one and not noticing it fired the second barrel?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: 450_366]
      #111719 - 13/08/08 12:42 PM

Quote:

Sorry, but been reading this thread and i realy doesent get it.

I cant understand how a round even if it increadeble overloaded could open the locks and then leave the gun intact?
Was it the first or the second barrel that opened the gun?
Was realy an unfired round ejected from the rifle as stated above?

If it was the second barrel that opened the gun, could he have pushed the leaver on the first one and not noticing it fired the second barrel?



The action opened upon the first round being fired, and it ejected the unfired round back into his face.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #111765 - 13/08/08 11:58 PM

Quote:




The action opened upon the first round being fired, and it ejected the unfired round back into his face.



So the fired round did stick to the chamber walls as the pressure was already out of the barrel. But if it ejected the unfired round was the rear trigger pulled at the same time as the lever was pushed to open????
But why didnt the fired round eject, did it stick to the walls that hard or was it possible to take it out by hand?
It sound as to many thing did go wrong at the same time, and as i understand the rifle is fine now
or at least as one can see by looking.

If this realy is done by bad technic as others state i realy realy want to see that technic

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: 450_366]
      #111779 - 14/08/08 08:12 AM

I have no experience with DRs......

MTBW....I have known 12 bore shotguns with buck shot or slug to do this. These examples are from India where ammo was difficult to get hold of & the reloading techniques were not standard. In the 3 or 4 cases I am aware of such opening of the breach with a shot, the plastic case was crimped very hard but the shots or slug was a bit loose in the case & the front wad was pushed down. In other words - when the trigger was pulled and the primer was ignited, the shot moved & then came up suddenly against the hard crimp before it moved again. This resulted in a pressure spike & the breach opened up. This was also known to happen with Shakthiman ammo (made by a private company with political clout).

Regarding the Chapuis rifle in this thread - I am still not clear if it was reloaded ammo & if the ammo was crimped.

The fact that there was case separation confirms that pressures were too high for what ever reason - high powder charge, tight throat, hard crimp, etc.....My guess is that the thumb lever might not have been moved at all & the action opened up as a result of the excess pressure. I would send the rifle back to the maker & have it checked with the same lot of ammo.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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450_366
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #111855 - 15/08/08 07:22 AM

Does enyone now if this gun also is build with the extractor on the barrels and only one lug? As some of the lower grade small caliber rifles.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #111863 - 15/08/08 09:14 AM

Quote:

I agree with 400NitroExpress and JPK. JPK can you believe that.
I didn't catch weather it was a new built (bespoke)rifle or a used or off the rack rifle. The problem is it dosen't fit.
Bill



Bill,

I am going to mark this down in my calendar for future reference, just to remind myself that unlikely doesn't mean impossible!!!

JPK

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JPK
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Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: JPK]
      #111865 - 15/08/08 09:25 AM

Adding to my previous post, since the 470 headspaces on the rim, one could check the headspace of the chamber by dropping in a case and laying a straight edge across the breech end of the chamber. The case head should be just flush. If it sticks out the rifle will not close properly and if it is sunken then there is ahead space issue.

JPK

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #111868 - 15/08/08 10:16 AM

Quote:

I have no experience with DRs......


My guess is that the thumb lever might not have been moved at all & the action opened up as a result of the excess pressure. I would send the rifle back to the maker & have it checked with the same lot of ammo.



With respect. If the action was locked at the point of fireing then it is impossible for the rifle to open from excessive pressure without substancial structural damage to the action and lumps.

It is far more likley that the action was only held by the tip of the bolt either because of foreign matter or rim thickness or just simple stiffness being new and unfamilier. On firing it opened, this alone would allow the case to move suficiently to streach and seperate. An unsuported case, even a low pressure one, will seperate, the brass will not stand it if not suported by a chamber.
As a matter of habit I thumb the lever to the left to check bolting if time permits on loading and periodicaly on a stalk. But then I am a two paper bag man.

Quote The fact that there was case separation confirms that pressures were too high for what ever reason - high powder charge, tight throat, hard crimp, etc.....Quote

As above, that is not necessaraly so.

Regards

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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
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Loc: New Zealand
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Bramble]
      #111890 - 15/08/08 03:27 PM

Thanks Bramble - I stand corrected. Yes I agree that the stiff action could have been marginally closed (not locked) & hence it opened on firing & stretched / separated the case.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #112067 - 18/08/08 11:43 AM

First off we need more info on this happening to decide the cause definitively! However I see several clues that nobody has mentioned yet. First, the only way the loaded side can be EJECTED, is if that barrel was fired! The shooter's thumb being on top near the top lever is another clue that would only open the action if the action was not fully closed, and it seems from the discription, the left barrel was the one fired. This would exasorbate the movement of the top lever to the right, because of the barrel riseing up, and to the leftpushing the lever closer to the thumb. The action opening during early combustion, could posibly allow the chamber pressure to blow the case, because of the preliminary opening of the action. With this happening, the fireing pin on the unfired chamber being slightly out of line with the primer, failed to fire that barrel too, luckily, but relaxed the tumbler, releasing the ejector. This could be why the loaded round was ejected, with out actually being fired.

The owner of this rifle seems to be in the dark where double rifle use is concerned, and if the pull is too long, then the stock needs to be shortened, and someone needs to show him how to hold a double rifle. The other thing I'd look at is the ammo! As 400 said, there are many well known handloaders who know absolutely nothing about loading for a double rifle. Nobody has said what bullets were loaded in this ammo, but I'd almost bet it was monolithic solids, and if so, this could be another contributeing factor, with the rifle not well closed, and the excess pressure developed by the monolithic solids could have contributed to this gang bang!

In any event, someone with some double rifle smarts needs to look this rifle, and ammo over!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #112074 - 18/08/08 02:19 PM

Quote:

First, the only way the loaded side can be EJECTED, is if that barrel was fired!



Well, in theory yes, but when a DR opens by itself when fired, who knows.
It may also depend on the type of ejector system used.

One thing that I've had on my mind that has not been mentioned yet in this thread is.....

For a cartridge to be ejected into the shooters face, below the eye, that double rifle sure was in a strange position!
If the barrels were to hinge open during firing, and the rifle butt is still at the shoulder, surely any ejected case would not be travelling anywhere near in line with the shooters eye, but would come out way higher!

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Loc: GB
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: 4seventy]
      #112081 - 18/08/08 07:17 PM

Thats what I thought Alan, where was the rifle ???? best, Mike

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ChrisPer
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Reged: 12/05/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Australia
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #112082 - 18/08/08 07:20 PM

This is the part that bothers me: much of our knowledge is speculation and assumption. We need to commission an incident investigation, and conduct tests.

I volunteer for the camera.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Scary Moment - What Happened? [Re: ChrisPer]
      #113512 - 04/09/08 05:10 AM

What happend with the gun, did it do it again?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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