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While I appreciate all of the analogy of why a Lead Sled should be such a “no no” for double rifles, my experience just hasn't matched up with that. Now I don't load my Sled down in an effort to eliminate my 470's recoil, but when it comes to an attempt to determine a load that will really tighten up a shooting group, I think reduced recoil can be very helpful.
I have had no problems with the perils of cracked stocks, poor regulation, or a differential in shooting precision when stepping from the Sled to sticks. The gun shoots fine and consistently as far as I can tell, and the process of getting it to that point is much more pleasurable.

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Yeas reducing recoil cant be a bad thing, and nowone can tell me that it will affect the regulation.
If it could, a rifle built and fired by me at 75kg couldnt be fired accuratly from my friends shoulder as he is at 125kg. So if i add the deadweight of his upperbody to mine preferably at my right shoulder the recoil would be lesser, wouldnt it? Now how would i do that, he would probably miss his shoulder so lead foil wrapped around mine perhaps or even better a hotdog made of a innertube filled with shotgun pellets. And to stick it to by shoulder i would build a rest that allows me to place it infront of my shoulder and the stock against it. Also my left hand would rest on the it together with my elbows, and the whole thing should allow me to shoot standing up. And prefeably it could collapse into the boot of a car not beeing to heavy to carry. Damn, now i need to build a rest to see if i works.

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Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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While I appreciate all of the analogy of why a Lead Sled should be such a “no no” for double rifles, my experience just hasn't matched up with that. Now I don't load my Sled down in an effort to eliminate my 470's recoil, but when it comes to an attempt to determine a load that will really tighten up a shooting group, I think reduced recoil can be very helpful.
I have had no problems with the perils of cracked stocks, poor regulation, or a differential in shooting precision when stepping from the Sled to sticks. The gun shoots fine and consistently as far as I can tell, and the process of getting it to that point is much more pleasurable.

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Yeas reducing recoil cant be a bad thing, and nowone can tell me that it will affect the regulation.
If it could, a rifle built and fired by me at 75kg couldnt be fired accuratly from my friends shoulder as he is at 125kg. So if i add the deadweight of his upperbody to mine preferably at my right shoulder the recoil would be lesser, wouldnt it? Now how would i do that, he would probably miss his shoulder so lead foil wrapped around mine perhaps or even better a hotdog made of a innertube filled with shotgun pellets. And to stick it to by shoulder i would build a rest that allows me to place it infront of my shoulder and the stock against it. Also my left hand would rest on the it together with my elbows, and the whole thing should allow me to shoot standing up. And prefeably it could collapse into the boot of a car not beeing to heavy to carry. Damn, now i need to build a rest to see if i works.

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450_366 It isn't the weight that the rifle pushes against that causes the rifle to not shoot to it's regulation! It is the fact that the rifle is not allowed to recoil in it's normal dirrections for each barrel! By this I mean the rifle held in the hands, and placed against the shoulder, and fired is free to recoil in the dirrections it does when regulated by a human!

Contact with hard surfaces, causes the natural arch of the recoiling rifle to change, thous changing the POI on the target. The forestock resting dirrectly on the sand bag and fired will not give the same result as the forestock being held by the shooter's hand. The reason the LS is not good for use with a side by side double rifle is the rifle is not allowed to recoil UP, and to the SIDE, because the butt is jammed down into the fixture being held bottom, and both sides! This not only destroys the ability of the rifle to follow it's normal path of recoil, but places a strain on the wrist of the two piece stock.

You can rest the rifle on a sand bag up front, but your hand needs to be between the rifle, and the sand bag, and gripping the for barrels. Standing or sitting at a bench is OK, but the rifle should be held in the hands, and touching only the face, and shoulder, however the back of the forehand, and the elbows can be rested on the bench. It makes no difference if the bench is a standing, or sitting, as long as the rifle doesn't touch anything other that the shooters hands, face, and shoulder! The reason the factories use standing benches for the regulation is to reduce felt recoil for the shooter, who somtimes shoot 100 rounds per day with several different heavy recoiling rifles. However, you will never see a factory regulator resting a side by side double rifle dirrectly on a sand bag. I fail to see what is so hard to understand about that!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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The reason the LS is not good for use with a side by side double rifle is the rifle is not allowed to recoil UP, and to the SIDE, because the butt is jammed down into the fixture being held bottom, and both sides!

You can rest the rifle on a sand bag up front, but your hand needs to be between the rifle, and the sand bag, and gripping the for barrels. Standing or sitting at a bench is OK, but the rifle should be held in the hands, and touching only the face, and shoulder, however the back of the forehand, and the elbows can be rested on the bench. It makes no difference if the bench is a standing, or sitting, as long as the rifle doesn't touch anything other that the shooters hands, face, and shoulder! I fail to see what is so hard to understand about that!

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The reason the LS is not good for use with a side by side double rifle is the rifle is not allowed to recoil UP, and to the SIDE, because the butt is jammed down into the fixture being held bottom, and both sides!

You can rest the rifle on a sand bag up front, but your hand needs to be between the rifle, and the sand bag, and gripping the for barrels. Standing or sitting at a bench is OK, but the rifle should be held in the hands, and touching only the face, and shoulder, however the back of the forehand, and the elbows can be rested on the bench. It makes no difference if the bench is a standing, or sitting, as long as the rifle doesn't touch anything other that the shooters hands, face, and shoulder! I fail to see what is so hard to understand about that!

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Your thoughts on constricting barrel movement when it’s being fired certainly make sense, but knowing that the Lead Sled doesn’t do that, I’m thinking the condemnation might be a bit overblown.

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I never said the LS restricts the side recoil of the barrels, but if the hand is not holding the barrels, as if shooting off hand, the the side, and up recoil is exagerated, and the resting of the toe of the butt on anything, be it bag, or the bottom of the butt fixture of the lead sled, is detremental to a S/S double rifle's shooting to the regulation of the rifle! As long as you hold the foreend, the thing that is a problem with the side recoil is that it causes torque on the butt stock because of the sides of the LS's butt fixture restricts the side recoil enough to strain the weakest part of the butt stock, the wrist. I have one of the lead sleds, and with a bolt rifle it works fine, because the rifle only recoil up and back. Addtionally, if you shoot a heavy recoiling S/S double rifle off sticks, without holding the fore-end it will not regulate properly either! I have zero problem with the lead sled with an O/U double rifle, or any bolt/single shot rifle. However it is not designed to be used with a s/s double,especially for the regulating process, nor is any other mechanical rest, unless the rifle is held as if being shot off hand! You, or anyone else may do as it pleases you, the rifles used in that case are yours! My S/S doubles will not though!

People seem to think they can bypass the tried, and true method of regulation of a barrel set, by the use of some fixture, or jig, and it will not work, for anything other than getting a starting point, at close range. For the building of a barrel of sets for double rifles ,every short-cut, ever thought up, has been tried, and none will negate the old method. This is what 450_366 is attempting to do, and I say, lead sled, or jig, it simply does not not work well with S/S double rifles!

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The reason the LS is not good for use with a side by side double rifle is the rifle is not allowed to recoil UP, and to the SIDE, because the butt is jammed down into the fixture being held bottom, and both sides!

You can rest the rifle on a sand bag up front, but your hand needs to be between the rifle, and the sand bag, and gripping the for barrels. Standing or sitting at a bench is OK, but the rifle should be held in the hands, and touching only the face, and shoulder, however the back of the forehand, and the elbows can be rested on the bench. It makes no difference if the bench is a standing, or sitting, as long as the rifle doesn't touch anything other that the shooters hands, face, and shoulder! I fail to see what is so hard to understand about that!

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Your thoughts on constricting barrel movement when it’s being fired certainly make sense, but knowing that the Lead Sled doesn’t do that, I’m thinking the condemnation might be a bit overblown.

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I never said the LS restricts the side recoil of the barrels, but if the hand is not holding the barrels, as if shooting off hand, the the side, and up recoil is exagerated! As long as you hold the foreend, the thing that is a problem with the side recoil is that it causes torque on the butt stock because of the sides of the LS's butt fixture restricts the side recoil enough to strain the weakest part of the butt stock, the wrist. I have one of the lead sleds, and with a bolt rifle it works fine, because the rifle only recoil up and back. Addtionally, if you shoot a heavy recoiling S/S double rifle off sticks, without holding the fore-end it will not regulate properly either! I have zero problem with the lead sled with an O/U double rifle, or any bolt/single shot rifle. However it is not designed to be used with a s/s double,especially for the regulating process, nor is any other mechanical rest, unless the rifle is held as if being shot off hand! You, or anyone else may do as it pleases you, the rifles used in that case are yours! My S/S doubles will not though!

People seem to think they can bypass the tried, and true method of regulation of a barrel set, by the use of some fixture, or jig, and it will not work, for anything other than getting a starting point, at close range. For the building of a barrel of sets for double rifles ,every short-cut, ever thought up, has been tried, and none will negate the old method. This is what 450_366 is attempting to do, and I say, lead sled, or jig, it will not work!

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Hey, I only want to learn by my own mistakes.
And i never said that the rifle should rest on anything other than my hand and shoulder, i wasnt refering to the LS. Only that i would add weight to my shoulder, or actually between my shoulder and but. And that i cant see how it wasnt suppose to work.

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Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Hey, I only want to learn by my own mistakes.
And i never said that the rifle should rest on anything other than my hand and shoulder, i wasnt refering to the LS. Only that i would add weight to my shoulder, or actually between my shoulder and but. And that i cant see how it wasnt suppose to work.

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................And that makes sense! The same effect, as the lead sled, without the detremental aspects of the lead sled, can be had by useing a ruck sack with a long strap. Place the weight inside the bag, and place the bag on the bench, with the strap between you and the butt of the rifle. When the rifle is fired the recoil pulls the bag back with the rifle, and your shoulder. With the elbows rested on the bench, and the fore-hand resting on a sand bag holding the rifle as if shooting off hand, no strain is trasmitted to the rifle at all,and it is as free to recoil any way it wants, but still lessens the felt recoil for the shooter, and does nothing to interfere with the shooting to the rifle's regulation! It is the same prencible,as the lead sled, but leaves the butt of the rifle only touching the shoulder, not resting on the hard bottom of the butt slot in the lead sled. I've used this for years while performing the regulation of barrel sets on large chamberings like the 577NE, to reduce the recoil, without a problem. My regulation will consistantly place two shots out of each barrel for a four shot composite group that will stay on a standard playing card @ 50 yds, without crossing!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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All,

I have a lot of experience with the Led Sled. I have been using one for about 5 years and have fired thousands of rounds from it. I use it for magazine rifles, but have never tried my double from it.

I have fired everything from .223 to .458 Lott from the sled. I have seen no change of POI. I have never broken a stock. I have, however, broken some scope bases. there is no doubt that shooting from the sled increases stress on the gun, because it has no where else to go. I consider the sled an excellent tool for assesing the overall strength of a shooting system. If it can hold up on the sled, you have a good reliable kit that is ready to hunt!

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Myabe I'm just crazy but I have used a Lead Sled for years with a double rifle and for me it works just fine. Maybe it's because I don't overload the Sled with lead but only moderate the recoil, or maybe with some guns the concern about a completely unrestricted butt plate is more of an issue on paper than in reality, but from the experience of using a double rifle and a Lead Sled in a modest way, I just don't see the reason for this degree fear. My gun shoots great both on and off the Sled. Maybe my gun is a fluke, and maybe I'm whacko, but I just haven't had any problems and find the Sled very useful.

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