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470NEBD
.275 member

Reged: 17/11/05
Posts: 57
Loc: ks usa

Searcy double
#44076 - 16/12/05 04:56 AM

Can anyone direct me to a good photo of a new model searcy PH,or delux. As posted recently I have handled a old Searcy feild model the stock was terrible and I would like to handle a new model. I like the Merkle, but would buy a Searcy felt like the merkle I would rather go with the Searcy think buying a gun a custom gun from someone close is a good idea I own several custom handguns,though I have never had to much trouble with them its just nice to know were the custom gun dealer lives ...... Thanks in advance

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bulldog563
.400 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Searcy double [Re: 470NEBD]
#44081 - 16/12/05 06:32 AM

Go to his website;

http://www.searcyent.com/new_deluxe.htm

That link is the deluxe. You can easily get to the PH from there.

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bulldog563
.400 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Searcy double [Re: 470NEBD]
#44082 - 16/12/05 06:33 AM

Also I would go to either SCI or DSC. Lots of DR's there to handle and feel out.

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clark7781
.375 member

Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA

Re: Searcy double [Re: 470NEBD]
#44086 - 16/12/05 07:16 AM

470:

I have a Merkel in .500 NE and I can tell you wihtout a doubt that the Merkel is going to be "slimmer" than most other DR you'll find in SIMILAR calibers. The action is smaller and so is the wrist of the stock.

Also, an interesting note is that a Merkel in .470 NE weighs more than a .500 NE! At the DRSS hunt, we compared a .470 and .500 next to each other and they are identical. Even the barrels are the same size - the .470 had more meat on the walls of the barrels because the bullet diameter is smaller - this, we estimated, made the .470 weigh more.

At least this is from the limited experience that I have with DR.

I can tell you this much though, if you want your stock shaved to be more streamlines, I know that Butch did it for someone who posts on another forum.

Bottom line - you get a custom gun from Butch for a few grand more than an off the shelf Merkel.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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Grizzly
.333 member

Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Searcy double [Re: bulldog563]
#44087 - 16/12/05 07:16 AM

Here's one of his "Presidential Grade" Rifles

http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.CFPage?appID=36&viewMode=list&catID=43&direction=DESC&gunid=1096&mode=viewGun

or

BassProFineGuns

Butch can make 'em purdy.....

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SCI Life Member
DSC Life Member
DRSS Member

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kino
.224 member

Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 16
Loc: Utah USA

Re: Searcy double [Re: Grizzly]
#44094 - 16/12/05 09:22 AM

That pres. grade was posted on AR. Butch himself replied that it is a gun built about 10yrs ago and his guns have evolved since then. I wouldn't call that a fair representation of what he builds now.
This one is probably more accurate.
cabelas

Edited by kino (16/12/05 09:27 AM)

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Searcy double [Re: kino]
#44099 - 16/12/05 10:49 AM

In reply to:

That pres. grade was posted on AR. Butch himself replied that it is a gun built about 10yrs ago and his guns have evolved since then. I wouldn't call that a fair representation of what he builds now.

That's good. That is some of the worst engraving I've ever seen on a rifle.

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Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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banzaibird
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/05
Posts: 358
Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Searcy double [Re: mickey]
#44100 - 16/12/05 11:04 AM

The scroll work was nice. The animals are a different story though.

BB

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Searcy double [Re: banzaibird]
#44104 - 16/12/05 12:07 PM

You're right, the scroll is okay. The animals make it look worse than it is.

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Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Grizzly
.333 member

Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: Searcy double [Re: banzaibird]
#44106 - 16/12/05 12:32 PM

I loved the wood work. All in all, by fit and finish, a beautiful rifle. The engraving not so good. Animals are kind of Salvador Dali (the guy with the melting clocks), done by an untouchable veneering with tin foil on meth.

Butch now has a great engraver. But my plan would be to get the best wood, hunt with it during a season, and pick my own engraver to do the work off season.

Note though, engraving is difficult with stainless. You will pay for the tools the engraver uses, since he will wear out a new batch of tools on stainless engraving.

I will engrave naked nubile maidens for free, so long as the model is available during the grueling engraving period.

Seriously, if you do want a future engraving, tell the maker. They need to make things a tad thicker. I've done this with wood but not with metal. If you get a flush mount with a straight lock, you cannot properly engrave. You etch. Looks OK, but it's not engraving.

A very good to excellent engraver will double the cost of a rifle. It is art.

For me, hunting is different. It is an art, not art. I am pretty enough. I don't need "pretty" when I need deadly.

Performance over looks. That's where Butch shines. He will measure you 12 days to Subday (he does not do inseam) and you will get a thumper that you can absorb.

I want fully functional, but I want a nice piece of wood. All of my rifles are like that - beautiful wood, minor scrol, but deadly accurate.

"Give me accuracy, or give me Death". Grizzly, 2005.

All those that quote me, please attribute the quote to me.

Thanks

--------------------
SCI Life Member
DSC Life Member
DRSS Member

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Peterb
.333 member

Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288

Re: Searcy double [Re: 470NEBD]
#44107 - 16/12/05 12:32 PM

470 Nitro plus extra set of 12 Ga barrels. Upgraded wood, cased. $14,800.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Searcy double [Re: Grizzly]
#44108 - 16/12/05 12:48 PM

What is that at the top of the floorplate? Is that supposed to be a buffalo or Darth Vader? I have to disagree, the scroll is pretty cheesy too. And whose idea was it to put an american classic cheekpiece on a double rifle? Yuck.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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kino
.224 member

Reged: 05/10/05
Posts: 16
Loc: Utah USA

Re: Searcy double [Re: mickey]
#44109 - 16/12/05 12:56 PM

I had thought about a game scene for the Deluxe I have on order with Butch, but changed my mind after looking at many examples. I've only found one I like what do you guys think of the Buffalo?
cabelas
It's a bit out of my price range.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Searcy double [Re: kino]
#44114 - 16/12/05 01:40 PM

The Westley is nice - very tastefully done. Decent buff. Game scene with scroll is lovely as long as the game scene is good - and it rarely is. I prefer just good fine scroll. Bold scroll lacks finesse unless it is properly shaded.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bulldog563
.400 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Searcy double [Re: kino]
#44117 - 16/12/05 02:20 PM

How is this bolt 30 grand?

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun_inventory/inventory/buda/fine_rifle/25792026_conco_mauser.jsp

Very Nice Westley.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Searcy double [Re: bulldog563]
#44120 - 16/12/05 02:30 PM

The gold kills it for me.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bulldog563
.400 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44121 - 16/12/05 02:44 PM

I don't think there is anything wrong with putting an american classic cheekpiece on an American Double. Just a matter of personal preference.

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bulldog563
.400 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44127 - 16/12/05 03:12 PM

Do most of you guys not like the American Classic cheekpeice? If you don't like it is it because it isn't "traditional" or because you don't like how it looks/feels?

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Searcy double [Re: bulldog563]
#44128 - 16/12/05 03:25 PM

Both. Doesn't belong on a double rifle.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bulldog563
.400 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44133 - 16/12/05 03:46 PM

Are the two main cheekpeice styles found on DR's the American Classic and the Pancake? Are there any others I should consider on a new DR being built? Pics would be good.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Searcy double [Re: bulldog563]
#44138 - 16/12/05 04:10 PM

The two main types of cheekpieces found on double rifles are the beaded pancake and none.

I don't know when this American Classic abortion began to creep into the continental DRs, but I've even seen a few new British guns with 'em. That's like replacing the hood ornament on a new Mercedes with steer horns. It's leprosy for double rifles. Best cure for it is a belt sander.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44139 - 16/12/05 04:21 PM

It took 100 years to perfect the Double rifle and now Americans come along and think they can improve it in 5 more. Next thing will be skip line checkering and a Monte Carlo Cheekpiece.

Oh wait D’Schulnigg already did that.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Searcy double [Re: mickey]
#44140 - 16/12/05 04:29 PM

No Mick, the next thing will be a farking G & H Sidemount welded to the left barrel.

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bulldog563
.400 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: Searcy double [Re: 470NEBD]
#44141 - 16/12/05 06:02 PM

There are a few pictures better pics of the PH here;

http://www.drake.net/html/vintage4.html

Not sure when it was made but I think its what your looking for.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44146 - 16/12/05 06:50 PM

Mickey

"It took 100 years to perfect the Double rifle and now Americans come along and
think they can improve it in 5 more. Next thing will be skip line checkering and
a Monte Carlo Cheekpiece."

Coming from an American, I like the above and other comments.

A bit like rechambering to 45/70 !!!

Next it will be TRU GLO sights on an English double.

500 Nitro

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: Searcy double [Re: 500Nitro]
#44153 - 17/12/05 12:24 AM

No, that's the Blaser.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44155 - 17/12/05 01:22 AM

400NE,

I am finally glad to hear somebody call a spade a spade.

Searcy may make a useable double. I don't know, as I have never owned or shot one.

One thing I do know is that of all the Searcys I have seen in person and of all the photos I have seen of Searcy DR's, I have never seen one I could take home and hold dear.

Frankly, I can't understand all the fuss and puffing about Searcy DR's. Let's face it, he's not the modern day James Purdey, and he never will be.

Sorry if I stepped on some toes. Maybe too much coffee this morning. Just my opinions, everybody is entitled to his own. That's what keeps this big ball spinning.

Regards,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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Chasseur
.375 member

Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!

Re: Searcy double [Re: 500Nitro]
#44157 - 17/12/05 01:26 AM

"It took 100 years to perfect the Double rifle and now Americans come along and
think they can improve it in 5 more. Next thing will be skip line checkering and
a Monte Carlo Cheekpiece."

And a "short-fat-super mag" chambering, with a huge Sightron scope, synthetic thumb-hole stock, attachment for a Harris bipod... what elese am I missing?

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In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: Searcy double [Re: Chasseur]
#44159 - 17/12/05 02:22 AM

It needs to be a Dale Earnhart edition.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
#44160 - 17/12/05 02:58 AM

Curl:

I agree entirely. However, you know we're making a lot of people mad at us. To be fair though, as I've said here before, Searcy rifles have improved dramatically over the years. Butch himself has stated that his rifles have "evolved" and I'm all for that. I hear he has a new variant coming up, and I look forward to seeing it. It seems that maybe his rifles are still evolving, so there is hope yet.

I have nothing against gunmakers, new or old, trying their hand in the double rifle game and I wish all of them well. What frustrates me is that, every time a new model comes out, it appears that the gunmaker has either never seen a double rifle before, or suffers from the egotistical delusion that they can "improve" perfection. Mick is dead right, the British not only developed them, they polished the ball endlessly and perfected the formula. That achievement is the primary reason for the demand for double rifles today, a fact clearly evident in the changes in the market for pre-war British DRs over the last 15 years. Even among the British, there WERE differences in the proprietary formulae, but they were pretty subtle. There's only so much running room for stylistic interpretation before you wreck the geometry and end up with a boat oar. I'm not singling out Searcy here, I wish the folks at Merkel, Chapuis, Heym, Krieghoff, AND Searcy would pick up a good quality British rifle and LOOK AT IT!

(Note to self: That oughtta piss 'em off!)

Chasseur:

You missed one. A beavertail fore-end the size of an Amazon freight canoe - ala the large bore Chapuis.

-----------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Peterb
.333 member

Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288

Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44163 - 17/12/05 03:14 AM

You forget that the improvement of the double rifle CONTINUES. Butch is using better materials than the old Brits had. They are simplly TOO HEAVY. Thay are about two pounds heavier than they should be. Theirs cannot shoot monolthic solids. The Brit gunmakers are no longer gunmakers but clothiers. The big names are owned by fashion companies. Their shotguns are very nice but I am personally not interested in a $50,000 shotgun or a $100,000 double rifle than cannot shoot modern bullets and is two pounds heavier than it should be. I'll take a Searcy over anything out there.

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Peterb
.333 member

Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288

Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44165 - 17/12/05 03:23 AM

Those miserable little oval Brit cheekpieces are so butt-Ugly, it is unbelieveable. God only knows who came up with that.

Overall, it is only logical that is is America that is improving the double rifle. The Brits are great on double shotguns, but they are simply pathetic on rifles. For a real rifle you need either American or Germanic touch. The Brits never wanted to trust their own people with rifles (other than rook rifles) and do not understand rifles. The pre-WW1 German military 98's were smoother than any of the 98's that the Brits "customized". For real rifles, go American or German.

Now a double rifle with a Ferlack cheekpiece would realy be the final evolution of the double rifle.

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Chasseur
.375 member

Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!

Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44168 - 17/12/05 03:33 AM

In reply to:

You missed one. A beavertail fore-end the size of an Amazon freight canoe - ala the large bore Chapuis.

Damn you're right, and the single trigger so it looks just like a Winchester 21

You're right though, thats one of things that really bother me about Chapuis, that damn beavertail... Those little ends also have a tendency to crack.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli

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clark7781
.375 member

Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA

Re: Searcy double [Re: Chasseur]
#44169 - 17/12/05 03:44 AM

Chasseur:

Is it officially Dr. Chasseur now?

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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Chasseur
.375 member

Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!

Re: Searcy double [Re: clark7781]
#44170 - 17/12/05 04:04 AM

Nahh... I still got to do the defense this spring, but the tenure track job is in the bag! With graduate students to boot!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
#44171 - 17/12/05 04:14 AM

CptCurl,

For once we diverge in opinion in some ways.

I agree that you can't "take hem home and hold them dear" and that
he's not the Modern James Purdey BUT this is where the problem
lies - Comparing Searcy's and Merkles to English guns.

As you know I have a few English DR's which are dear to me, but I also have
2 Merkels and a Sarqueta. I like them but they are not dear to me.

IMHO, I call them my THRASH guns, the ones I would take into a deep
swamp, not too worried if they get a few knocks and dents.

Merkel, Searcy et al should be looked at as good, solid working guns
and not compared AT ALL to English guns.

I think the reason people rave about Searcy is that he just does a damn
good job of putting together a good, solid, reliable DG DR at a price
that people can afford.

If you look at some of the heavyweight shotguns that have been produced in the past
in the US, Hell, for an American what Searcy makes is not bad !!! (in jest guys)

At least he doesn't want to put a traditional English gun name (Rigby) on a
CNC Machined piece of metal out of Europe and expect us to believe
it's in the same league as before.

However a Searcy does satisfy the "Made in America" syndrome.
(for Peterb's benefit !!!)

500 Nitro

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470NEBD
.275 member

Reged: 17/11/05
Posts: 57
Loc: ks usa

Re: Searcy double [Re: bulldog563]
#44173 - 17/12/05 04:18 AM

Thanks! "Bulldog" that is a better pic,the wood is better but it still looks like a brick of wood. If Searcy is going up a Grand, and the wait. I think the merkle is better value I think all the DR's out there are good to an extent, they were designed to stop dangerous animals. As for the engraving I want to shoot the gun not drool over it. As stated before the engraving I have seen has not been very good.

"Another thing", off the the "post" how many rounds do you guys have through you DR. The last Merkle I handled was tight could hardly get the action open, I would imagine it will losen up with rounds through it, but this thin was tight I thought I was not pushing the leaver far enough.

Thank you all, for your imput's

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Searcy double [Re: 470NEBD]
#44174 - 17/12/05 04:21 AM

470NEBD

The merkel's take a bit of loosening up - I have put over
100 rounds though my 375 and it is still a bit tight but
loosening up

500 Nitro

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clark7781
.375 member

Reged: 28/10/04
Posts: 612
Loc: Fairfax County, Virginia, USA

Re: Searcy double [Re: 500Nitro]
#44176 - 17/12/05 04:25 AM

In reply to:

I think the reason people rave about Searcy is that he just does a damn good job of putting together a good, solid, reliable DG DR at a price that people can afford.

500Nitro, and I may add that his customer service is hard to beat, something not often found today.

Something breaks on his guns ten years from now, he'll fix it for the cost of shipping.

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44178 - 17/12/05 04:51 AM

In reply to:

Poster: Peterb
Subject: Re: Searcy double

You forget that the improvement of the double rifle CONTINUES. Butch is using better materials than the old Brits had. They are simply TOO HEAVY. They are about two pounds heavier than they should be. Theirs cannot shoot monolithic solids. The Brit gunmakers are no longer gunmakers but clothiers. The big names are owned by fashion companies. Their shotguns are very nice but I am personally not interested in a $50,000 shotgun or a $100,000 double rifle than cannot shoot modern bullets and is two pounds heavier than it should be. I'll take a Searcy over anything out there.

Peter

I need to take exception to some of your points. While Searcy is using better steel than the old Brit rifles the new Brit and Euro rifles all use comparable steel to Searcy.

I find that the Searcy are the heavier rifles in caliber, not the Brit rifles. I think it comes from using the same size action for all calibers instead of the size that best fits. There is also a lot of extra metal on Searcy rifles. Is it because of the reliance on only two locking lugs?

Why would it matter if a rifle can shoot a monolithic solid? What exactly is so great about them? What is wrong with the old tried and true bullets that have been in use for 100 years? Are they not any good?

Until Tyra Banks or Coco Channel start filing barrel flats and timing ejectors who owns the companies is irrelevant. It is the workers who determine the quality. By the way, who is it that owns Winchester/Browning now?

Searcy rifles have come along way since he screwed barrels into Jap Browning actions. They get better feeling and slimmer every time he modifies them. In a few more adaptions he might get to the point where they point and feel like an extension instead of a protuberance.

Of course at that point they will no longer be the entry level tool they are now but be a mid to high priced weapon and people will be touting the next guy to come along and make a cheap and serviceable rifle.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44181 - 17/12/05 05:09 AM

Peter Hiatt:

"You forget that the improvement of the double rifle CONTINUES."

No, it doesn't, at least not in the way you're thinking. It does only in subtle ways. Rizzini's new take on intercepting sears is outstanding for example. Krieghoff's and Blaser's safey/kickspanner is a serious retrograde movement.

"Butch is using better materials than the old Brits had."

So is everyone else, including the British. This old steel/new steel issue, as it applies to DRs, is a red herring. The materials that the old Brits used was plenty good enough. These guns have stood the test of time. I've seen a great many that were worn out only because the they'd been shot so much that the barrels were shot out, yet they were still in great shape otherwise and still locked up tight as a rat-trap. Given proper maintenance and correct ammo, they're nothing if not durable, and it takes no more abuse to damage a new gun than it does an old one. I recently handled a fairly new Chapuis DR that was off face. Not much use evident, but you could stick a dime between the barrels and the breech face and the barrels were no longer square to the face. I can't remember having seen a pre-war British rifle as fucked up as that one was. The "modern" steel didn't do it a bit of good. The limiting factor of a double gun isn't so much the steel as it is the design and how well the mating surfaces are fit. No drop-down-barrel action will take much pressure or neglect and building it out of the newest vacuum-arc remelting m-effing son-of-a-bitching steel isn't going to change that much.

"They are simply TOO HEAVY. They are about two pounds heavier than they should be."

Some of the British rifles were too heavy, and some were too light. Cabela's has a Jeffery .450/.400 that is 11 pounds 6 ounces (way too heavy) and Champlin's recently had a Holland .577 full Nitro that was only 2 ounces heavier (way too light). Overall, they averaged out just right. Most Brit .470s ran around 10.5 to 11 pounds, so you think a .470 shouldn't weight more than 9 pounds? My .400 weighs 10 pounds, so you think it shouldn't weigh more than 8? Nothing personal, Peter, but that's just nuts.

"Theirs cannot shoot monolithic solids."

Never had any desire to shoot one of those. Woodleigh solids sure seem to work well for everyone I know. Sure, you can run up the wall thickness and get away with it for a while, but bull barrels kill the geometry and you don't have a double rifle anymore - because is doesn't handle like one anymore. Of course, if the "new" steels made so much difference, this wouldn't be necessary. This is precisely my criticism of some of the new doubles, particularly Searcy, Merkel, and Krieghoff.
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44184 - 17/12/05 05:34 AM

Peter:

Interesting that you seem to take the "American" viewpoint, as we certainly seem to agree about the Winchester 21. I just think that the Searcy is the rifle version.

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Re: Searcy double [Re: 470NEBD]
#44189 - 17/12/05 06:20 AM

470NEBD:

Yeah, all of the rifles under discussion are good to an extent and should give good mechanical service. In this price range, I wish they would leave the engraving off and spend the money on better metalwork and fit/finish.

The Merkel is as good as any in its price range. They don't seem to have any accuracy issues. The new guns are reliably extremely stiff. A couple hundred rounds getting used to it should do the trick.

Good quality double rifles will stay on face indefinitely with correct ammo and lubrication. If you horse it, they'll all loosen up quick. I've had well over 1000 rounds through both of mine and both are still dead on face with great bores. Both are pre-war English, the newest was 65 years old when I got it. I have no idea how many rounds they'd had through 'em before they came to me.
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44190 - 17/12/05 06:25 AM

400NE,

I thoroughly agree with the statement you made just after my last post. The fact is, Searcy has improved his product dramatically over the past 15 to 20 years.

And certainly the world is a better place, and we are all enriched somewhat by his effort. To my knowledge he is the only maker of DR's in the Americas (aside from an occasional special project by Tony Galazan).

The point you made about effort to improve on a design that was perfected by the Brits is a point everyone should read carefully and take to heart. It is just that concept that separates me from my friends who tout Parker, L.C. Smith, Ithica, and Winchester shotguns. My thought in that context is, "At a time when the quintessential design had been placed before the world for all to see, why did those makers take it upon themselves to re-invent the wheel, and do a poor job of it?"

If I am not mistaken, and correct me if I am wrong, Tony Galazan's just announced "RBL" shotgun will be the first general production A&D shotgun to be produced in the Americas. Bravo! After more than a century America has come to recognise a great design.

As I understand, Searcy employs the A&D design, for which he ought to be commended, but as you say, his lines and style are atrocious. Now granted, he can't afford to have an actioner spend 50 to 100 hours filing the contours of his actions. But the Brits didn't have CNC. On proper machinery he can spit out an action so close to finished that it requires very little handwork. Why doesn't he do it?

Likewise, the stock. The Brits didn't have pantographs, to my knowledge. A computer controlled machine can spit out a stock with proper lines, ready for final fit and finish. So why the funky lines?

I'm not here to piss anybody off, and I generally hold my tongue when the Searcy choir is performing. But there is another side to all the gratuitous accolades.

500Nitro,

You said you thought we had reached a point of disagreement. Not so. I carefully read your post and find nothing in it I would take issue with.

And finally, from inside my glass house let me say that yes, I do have some ugly DR's and I do have some I consider "beaters" or "trash guns." I do hold those to a lower standard than a best Brit rifle, and own them for different reasons and purposes. But at the end of the day, given the choice between a Searcy and a current production Merkel 140-2, I'll take the Merkel. I think it is a better gun, and it is several thousand dollars less, to boot.

Others will differ. I am not trying to impose my thoughts and opinion on anybody. Just stating what's on my mind. We are all blessed to be fascinated by double rifles, no matter who the maker may be.

Best,
Curl

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bulldog563
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
#44207 - 17/12/05 09:17 AM

I agree with you guys that the brit guns have better fit and finish but after all they should...They cost 4 times as much. The day I can afford a Holland Royal in a decent caliber or a Purdey or Richards I will get one but until then I will have my Searcy. I just think that it is very difficult to compare British DR's to American because they are like apples and oranges. Personally I think Searcy's are great and the reason they get labeled as "clubby" or "a block of wood" etc is because most of the Searcy's people see are examples from early in his career where they haven't eveloved to the point they are now. From what I have seen most of the people who have a newer Searcy don't want to sell it and the people with the older ones want to sell them to buy a new one. Granted I don't have nearly as much experience as most on this forum but I would much rather give my money to someone like Butch who stands behind his work 100%, Works out of my state, Is constantly improving his level of work and models in his line and builds one heck of a DR for the money. If you think they are too heavy or have too much wood there is no doubt that he would try to fix this for your rifle. I just don't see anywhere near his level of commitment in most all of the comparable companies. This is not to say I wouldn't give my money to the Brits but I would just have to give them so much more of it it doensn't make sense to me at the moment. By the way I think this is a great thread.

Edit;
Also don't get me wrong...I love british doubles and hopefully one day I can be fortunate enough to own one. Also I agree with you guys on most points I just think it is hard to compare the two fairly. A Holland is a Holland and a Searcy is a Searcy. Yes they are both doubles but they are completely different.

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Edited by bulldog563 (17/12/05 10:39 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
#44212 - 17/12/05 09:30 AM

Curl

It's going to be a very interesting dinner in Las Vegas !!!

I'm glad someone else replied to Peterb as I think I might
have started WWIII.

Peterb - don't throw stones in glass houses or someone might
start comparing US Clubs (er sorry, Shotguns) to others and
it wouldn't make US Shotguns smell of roses.

500 Nitro

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CptCurl
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 500Nitro]
#44219 - 17/12/05 10:19 AM

500,

Yeah, it's going to be a fine dinner.

A little titter about shape and style means nothing among friends.

Like I said before, We are all blessed to be fascinated by double rifles, no matter who the maker may be.

How can you be angry about somebody who passionately defends a double rifle? Let's bash the fuckers who drag around semi's!

Curl

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
#44221 - 17/12/05 10:29 AM

Curl:

"Let's bash the fuckers who drag around semi's."

Nah. Go for the bolt cranker trash.

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Peterb
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44239 - 17/12/05 01:43 PM

The new Purdeys and H&H's I have seen are two pounds heavier than the equal in a Searcy (470). I once had an 8 pound 458 which fit me well and was a pussy to shoot. The 470 is quite equal in energy and I would prefer one of that weight. In the mean time, I'll accept the 9 1/2 pounds I currently have. Anyone who needs a 12 pound 470 or 500 is simply a sissy.

Yes, the Mod 21 is butt-ugly and handles like a sow Superglued to a snow shovel. Of course, it is a copy of a Brit shotgun.

American shotguns were, for the most part, hell bent for stout. That is because it was not the Colt or Winchester which won the West, but the shotgun. They were used for upland game, waterfowl (very few punt guns in the American West), deer with slugs or shot, and Indians and neer do wells. The 10 Ga was usually the gauge of choice. One delicate lil lady home alone found only a door between her and the most famous Californian bandito of the time (some Mexican guy). So she shot both barrels through the door and killed the bad guy AND his horse and was reloading to get the rest of the gang as they hit the leather and got out of there. Colt shotgun if I heard right. Brit authorities would probably arrest her now (if they survived). Later LCS & Fox & Parker, etc came out with game guns like the Brits. The Lefever had a great design with a screw to automatically tighten the action (Brit gunsmith's disliked this as they lost gunsmithing money). The LC had the greatest and simplest design to keep guns from getting loose. Anyone ever seen ANY loose LC?

That petite lil English cheekpiece belongs only on a pimp's gun. It is simply butt-ugly.

As for Butch making the only DR in the US, there is also "Rigby" and the Hoenig TRUE Round Action. I think the Searcy has nice lines and handling. It has the "clam shell" strengthener which allows a lighter gun. The engraving was not to my liking but with a minor upgrade, it is fine.

The Chapuis is French. Let us not try to expect much of it. The French copy no one and no one copies the French.

Purdey uses a Hoenig machine for stocks. When someone wants a hand done job, it is often sent to Trevallion.

I'm no fun at dinners or around the campfire because I am not opinionated enough.

Perhaps someone can explain to me how the Germans can come up the odd and dangerous cocking devices on the Krieghoff and S-2. Did they hire French designers?

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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44243 - 17/12/05 02:01 PM

Peterb

"As for Butch making the only DR in the US, there is also "Rigby" "

Why do you include "Rigby" ? I thought everyone agreed these were
Merkel actions so wouldn't you call them European ?

I think MEXICAN RIGBY is the the name I heard that best suits the
Rigby's sold in the US now.

Just my HO

500 Nitro

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44244 - 17/12/05 02:02 PM

--------------------------------------------------------

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Peterb
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 500Nitro]
#44246 - 17/12/05 02:13 PM

500Nitro, it is true that "Rigby" uses the 20 Ga Merkel shotgun action for their DRs, but they use real American Pac-Nor barrels and real Kaleefornian walnut.

Edited by Peterb (18/12/05 11:51 AM)

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mickey
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44249 - 17/12/05 02:32 PM

There is the 'Norseman' from Havre Mt. that use Berretta actions.

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Chasseur
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44251 - 17/12/05 03:04 PM

In reply to:

The French copy no one and no one copies the French.

I suppose:

(1) Wingshooting: 17th Century, Charles II when in exile in France picked it up and brought it back to England.

(2) The break/breech loading action (Pauly in 1811, though he was Swiss he was in Napoleon's army

, then Lefaucheux, 1828-35)

(3) The central percussion cartridge (1829, Roux, Picheron, Robert, Pottet)

(4) The rimfire cartridge (1845, Flobert)

(5) the Minie bullet (Claude Minie, 1847), and many others don't count...

Good thing no one copied the French and we still run arround with muzzle loading caplocks

Actually I'd take my Chapuis (or a Demas) over a Searcy any day. Though 400 is right, I'd love it better if they got rid of that damn beavertail...

No worries Peter all in good fun.

--------------------
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Edited by Chasseur (17/12/05 03:07 PM)

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Peterb
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Chasseur]
#44253 - 17/12/05 03:07 PM

Chas, I agree with you completely. The French haven't had a good gun idea since 1847.

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Chasseur
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44254 - 17/12/05 03:09 PM

In reply to:

Chas, I agree with you completely. The French haven't had a good gun idea since 1847.

Not bad old bean!

However, my original point is very valid there was significant copying from the French by your admission before 1847 or else where did all this wonderful technology for those American clubs, er uh, shotguns and rifles come from?

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Edited by Chasseur (17/12/05 03:13 PM)

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bulldog563
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Chasseur]
#44257 - 17/12/05 03:31 PM

500, Mexican Rigby is right. Those things aren't nearly worth the price they are currently being sold (or not sold) for. It really is a shame.

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500Nitro
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44259 - 17/12/05 03:33 PM

Peterb

I took my Merkel 470 and measured it against a scaled photo
of a "Rigby".

EVERY measurement was the same - pins etc so I find it unlikely
that someone made 2 actions the same in different locations.

I don't mind the Merkel DR's, after all, I have 2 of them however
I just don't like them being passed off as Rigby's.

Re "American Pac-Nor barrels and real Kaeeforian walnut"
I don't know and don't really care - I have 2 original Rigby's so
would never buy one anyway.

All in good fun !!!

500 Nitro

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Re: Searcy double [Re: Chasseur]
#44260 - 17/12/05 03:37 PM

Chas, you presume that those French ideas occured in a vacuum. In reality, many countries and companies were having similar ideas at the same time. What is obvious is that there have been very little French advancements in any area in well over a century. Little Belgium has been a gun giant in comparison. Since France became socialized, it has gotten even worse.

Chapuis is really on the lower end of DR quality. Personally, I wouldn't own one, but to each his own.

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500grains
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44270 - 17/12/05 04:20 PM

I have shot some Chapuis that shot well. But what of the story that Chapuis receivers are made from relatively soft steel and go off face easily? Does anyone know if that is true or hokum?

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Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44282 - 18/12/05 12:50 AM

400NE,

My confession,

I've got a few bolt guns!

(But that doesn't mean I'm a bad person.)

Curl

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Chasseur
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
#44283 - 18/12/05 12:58 AM

No worries Curly,

Here is my confession, not only do I own some bolt guns, but I also have one of those cheesy Remington 22 auto loaders with a plastic stock, and $40 Simmons scope... ahhhhh

--------------------
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Edited by Chasseur (18/12/05 04:54 AM)

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CptCurl
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Chasseur]
#44284 - 18/12/05 01:28 AM

Chasseur,

Damn, the next thing you'll say is that you are a pedophile!

Curl

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
#44288 - 18/12/05 03:18 AM

Curl:

Yeah, I have a few myself, I just try not to be seen with 'em.

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Re: Searcy double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#44294 - 18/12/05 04:58 AM

Geez, what's going on here? Is this some sort of encounter group? Is Doctor Phil in the house?

I don't want to read about your predilections toward Liberalisms and your efforts to mingle with the Hoi Polloi.

If you have a bolt action put it in the Bolt action section. An Autoloader?

Some things are best left in the closet.

Buck up men, hold your head up and Tally Ho. Stiff upper lip and Bully for Class Distinction.

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CptCurl
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Re: Searcy double [Re: mickey]
#44301 - 18/12/05 06:45 AM

Mick,

Confession is good for the soul. But I agree we have had enough of it, and it is time to "soldier on."

To the double rifles, men! Leave the bolts and semis for the unwashed masses.

Curl

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500Nitro
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Re: Searcy double [Re: mickey]
#44308 - 18/12/05 08:06 AM

Mickey

Very good indeed.

500 Nitro

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Peterb
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Re: Searcy double [Re: CptCurl]
#44331 - 18/12/05 11:50 AM

How does the bolt action double barrel rate?

PS: It is NOT French.

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500Nitro
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44341 - 18/12/05 02:08 PM

It depends.

If the idea originated or the gun was built in America
it would be great !!!

Made anywhere else and it's a monstrosity !!!

On a serious note, I wouldn't own one.

500 Nitro

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Peterb
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 500Nitro]
#44344 - 18/12/05 03:14 PM

Hear, hear.

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500grains
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Re: Searcy double [Re: Peterb]
#44356 - 19/12/05 12:30 AM

Peterb, suppposedly the bolt action double blew up and blew some professional hunter's finger off a few years ago. I have handled one of the rifles and it is an excellent piece of craftsmanship. But it is a push feed.

Then again, so are all SxS double rifles.

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Peterb
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 500grains]
#44367 - 19/12/05 06:58 AM

German design but musta been made in France.

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bonanza
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Re: Searcy double [Re: 500grains]
#44410 - 20/12/05 03:27 AM

Well,

I have a Merkel in that "horrible" high pressure .375 and a chapuis 470 with it's "soft" heat treated receiver, so if either will come off face I'll be first to know!

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bonanza
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For Peterb [Re: Peterb]
#44559 - 22/12/05 01:03 AM

Peter,

You comment that "the Chapuis is on the lower end of DR quality", do you mind elaborating?

--------------------

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Peterb
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Re: For Peterb [Re: bonanza]
#44579 - 22/12/05 04:47 AM

There are about 3 echelons of DRs. There are the smaller calibers like 45-70 in guns like Pedersoli which are available in lower prices. Then there are the very high end guns like Purdey & H&H quality which are often over $100,000. Then there are the medium quality guns like Searcy, Merkel, Heym, Rigby, Blaser, Chapuis, etc. Of this medium quality, I disliked the Blaser due to the funky and potentially dangerous double cocking system. Otherwise it felt good although the bullet holder is kinda funky, too. As far as general quality goes, the Chapuis looked and felt more like it belonged with the lower echelon guns. I haven't seen a new Rigby close up so cannot comment on that one. However, as it uses a Merkel action, I don't see why it is double the price of a Merkel.

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bonanza
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Re: For Peterb [Re: Peterb]
#44585 - 22/12/05 05:43 AM

Peterb,

Thanks for replying. However, I’d like to comment on your reply. I’d say there are probably 4 tiers of DR price range:

1: 3-8k : pedersoli, and some over/unders
2: 8-12k : merkel, heym, searcy, etc.
3: 13-50k : vintage British
4: 150k+ : new British

Quality is very subjective term as it can mean many things to many people. However, in a $12,000 DR there are some objective tangible attributes of quality that are immutable, those being: high grade materials, close tolerances, excellent fit and finish, absolute reliability and most importantly, near perfect regulation. The subjective non-tangible attributes will be balance and feel.

In closely examining and shooting several DRs in the past year, personally I don’t think one can get better quality for the price than tier2 if you look at it objectively. Certainly, in form, some rifles are prettier than others, but not better quality.

I’ll agree that the Chapuis and Heym are priced on the high-end, but not by much. The bottom line is that you are not going to find a big bore double for less than 10k, regardless of its quality. Let’s face it, all the rifles in tier2 are mass produced, but you will get a real DR that will shoot a sub 3” group for the price of an used Ford and that is alright in my book.

--------------------

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"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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new_guy
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Re: For Peterb [Re: bonanza]
#44597 - 22/12/05 06:21 AM

I think you'll have to move Heym up one grade based on price.

The latest price for their basic 470 I've seen was right at $17K.

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JPK
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Re: For Peterb [Re: new_guy]
#44603 - 22/12/05 07:19 AM

I'm not argueing with your conclusions but pointing out that you left off a probably two catagories of Eropean makers. These would be Francotte, Thys, Dumoulin, Beretta WRT their 455, Peruguini/Visini and others on the upper end and the German makers and guild guns, I'd say split upper and middle market.

Thoughts?

JPK

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bonanza
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Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: For Peterb [Re: JPK]
#44607 - 22/12/05 08:39 AM

I agree. I totally forgot the boutique makers that are in the 20-50k range. I also deliberately ignored embellishments as that can really jack-up the price of a rifle without improving quality.

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Grizzly
.333 member

Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA

Re: For Peterb [Re: bonanza]
#44624 - 22/12/05 11:58 AM

Just my my opinion.

Yes, price range is near and dear to our hearts.

But I have been on a quest for functionality versus price. The exican Rigby" will be at least 20% more than the others. What is the sense in buying a name unless you can make a nice profit on it.

The ideal double has chopper lump barrels. Most of the newer versions are mono bloc. Many great rifles in mono bloc, but not the same fit as chopper lump.

Searcy makes all mono bloc, and chopper is a $4000 upgrade. That's right, $4000.

An "anti-doubling" device is a great feature. No two barrells at once. I don't mean to pick on Searcy, but that is an extra over $1000.

And a "Greener" lock is extra as well. The Greener provides a third "bite" on a double. And based on my research a third point of contact on a double is cheap insurance.

With all of that said, Searcy makes probably the best double righ now. It may be too heavy heavy, too ugly, or too American, but it is a shooter.

If you want a double that stays in the safe, there are a whole bunch of pretty double makers. If you want a shooter, do a functional comparison, and listen to people that use it in the field.

You will get many pros and cons. Common sense prevails. Think for yourself, and you will never be dissappointed.

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bulldog563
.400 member

Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California

Re: For Peterb [Re: Grizzly]
#44638 - 22/12/05 02:20 PM

Does the Greener Cross Bolt come standard on the higher level Searcy's (deluxe, sidelock, underlever etc.) or do you have to ask for it? If so how much extra? I assume you are talking about the PH because of the intercepting sears comment. Do you need the Greener Cross Bolt when you already have double purdey bolting?

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Peterb
.333 member

Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288

Re: For Peterb [Re: bulldog563]
#44646 - 22/12/05 04:17 PM

I would add guns like the Fanzoi and H&W to the top list, but I don't know if there is any difference between these maybe $40k guns from the Purdey/H&H guns at much higher. I still consider it a single group but don't care if others consider one or more groups. The Heym and Rigby are in the upper middle group in price. I really do not think the Rigby deserves being there. The Heym is rather high price in comparison to Merkel and Searcy, but it IS a very nice gun. A bit blocky but nice quality. My Russian friend who is very wise on the Euro guns says the Merkel quality has dropped over the last 5 years. I cannot comment on them other than I trust his judgement.

I really cannot understand the extra cocking mechanisms on the Blaser and Krieghoff. It is hard to imagine anything so dumb on a dgr.

On the comment that the Searcy is overly heavy...my 470 PH is 9 1/2 pounds. So that comment has no merit.

The Vegas show should provide a good example of many different doubles to examine.

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500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: For Peterb [Re: Peterb]
#44650 - 22/12/05 04:50 PM

The Fanzoj I have seen are nicer than current H&H IMO.

And that, like any other opinion, is likely to rankle someone.

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