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Buchsemann
.333 member

Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA

Not sure about what to think about this one
#233623 - 06/08/13 01:41 PM

Anybody else notice this? I know it's Belgian and chambered for what the seller said is the .303 Savage (seems odd), perhaps not the most sought after cup of meat, but it's also a pre-WW2 high condition ejector DR. I'm thinking somebody got a good deal, that is of course unless I'm missing something? Is this a case of a nice DR flying under the radar again and only two noticed? Seems it wasn't that long ago that a Westley Richards .375 with 16" barrels slipped by a few of us as well. Should I be saying "Dang!" again? I know, it's not a WR but still.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=355924734

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Buchsemann]
#233624 - 06/08/13 01:46 PM

Yes, I would say slipped under the radar.

That gun is almost a dead ringer for a mates Simpson 318WR.

For 3k, 303 Savage so not that difficult to load for,
my oath it was worth it.

Just my HO

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#233625 - 06/08/13 02:14 PM

I think it is a 1949 date code.

Somebody can correct me if I am wrong.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233626 - 06/08/13 02:19 PM

A light double for $3,000.

Great pig gun here in Aus and even a Buffalo / Scrub Bull / Deer gun if you got it shooting well with back up.

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Nordmann
.300 member

Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#233630 - 06/08/13 04:21 PM

Would make a nice lamp stand, but admit it was cheap.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233631 - 06/08/13 04:30 PM

Nordmann

Not everyone wants or can afford a Holland, Purdey.

That gun there is a perfect, cheap Pig / Scrub gun for Aus
and probably deer gun for the UK / US.

I'd buy it, only because my mate had a 318WR by Simpson that was a ripper hunting gun and it would mean we could go on a
double 318WR hunt instead of one double in 318WR and one bolt gun in 318WR.

Sometimes there is more to double rifles than H&H, Purdey, Rigby etc !!!

Edited by 500Nitro (06/08/13 05:18 PM)

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Nordmann
.300 member

Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#233633 - 06/08/13 04:58 PM

So your saying I can't have my own opinion now?

It's certainly not perfect, hence the price!

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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Claydog
.375 member

Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 934
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233634 - 06/08/13 05:02 PM

I would buy it because it would nice handy hunting rifle. Would be difficult to convert to a useable lamp stand.

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39343
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Claydog]
#233639 - 06/08/13 06:36 PM

Assuming there is nothing substantially wrong with it, someone got a real bargain on a double hunting rifle. A price from about ten to twenty years ago.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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CptCurl
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: NitroX]
#233649 - 06/08/13 09:21 PM

I feel sure in a week or two when he has it in hand we will hear a full report from Buckstix about his new toy.

I'm really surprised it would be chambered in .303 Savage. I guess the seller knows, but wouldn't it be wonderful if it turns out to be .303 Brit.? Mistakes like that are not impossible. The stamp clearly says .303, but what else it says is left to question. If I had bought that rifle I wouldn't run out and buy .303 Savage dies until I confirmed the chamber. I am particularly fond of doubles chambered in .303 Brit.

Buckstix, what say ye? Congratulations, man! It looks like the double rifle bug has you by the ear.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233650 - 06/08/13 09:25 PM

It looks like a pretty good build, with ejectors and a hidden third fastener. The Belgians have made some good double rifles.

Admittedly not a Purdey or Holland, but at $3k there's a lot of rifle there to play with.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233651 - 06/08/13 09:27 PM

500N,

You shoot buffalo with a .30-30 (equivalent)?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233655 - 06/08/13 10:28 PM

If it is a .303 brit what a bargain !

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Mike_Bailey
.400 member

Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233656 - 06/08/13 10:38 PM

Quote:

Would make a nice lamp stand, but admit it was cheap.

Nordmann, unless it has something seriously wrong with it how can you say that ? That would make a great monteria gun and a good allround rifle out to 150 yds or so if you can use irons at that range and priced at GBP equiv 2k !! Lamp stand indeed ?! I like nice guns as much as the next man but my favourite shotgun is a Model 12 winchester pump built in 1949 and as long as I´m alive it won´t be going anywhere, best, Mike

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Nordmann
.300 member

Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#233658 - 07/08/13 12:08 AM

"my favourite shotgun is a Model 12 winchester pump built in 1949"

Well Mike, mine is my 28 gauge 0/U Boss & Co made 1920, so I guess we are not on the same page. I could never get excited about a mass produced gun made by a company that cant even get the screws to line up.

I understand that to someone the cheap Belgian rifle would perhaps be the best gun in the world, but its not for me, sorry. Furthermore I don't particularly like that caliber, its hard to get and Im not a reloader.

It has nothing to do with the price because I wouldn't want to own it for $1000!

The next time I get offered something like this perhaps I should send you the details, and let you fill up your gun case.

Best
James

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233661 - 07/08/13 01:45 AM

Quote:

500N,
You shoot buffalo with a .30-30 (equivalent)?
Curl

Curl

If it was in my hands at the time and nothing else was available, yes, but only because I know I could.

As a choice I would not take it out after buffalo but if i was hunting pigs only and came across one, yes.

Some people do use the odd 30-30, I wouldn't if new but
knowing I could slip a bullet or two exactly where I wanted,
then yes I would.

Would be nice to have back up though

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3536
Loc: Colorado

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233666 - 07/08/13 02:26 AM

Quote:

I could never get excited about a mass produced gun made by a company that cant even get the screws to line up.

So, I guess Winchesters, Henrys and Colts which outsell Hollands, Purdeys and Boss in price and volume don't excite you? Guess you are not as much a salesman as I thought!

JUST STIRRING THE POT!

I am LESS excited in this gun as I am in best British guns but can still recognize a good deal.

Timed screws are simply an indicator of time spent on the gun, not the skill of the maker. They are purely cosmetic and not difficult to do - just take time.
The screws on this gun look like they are in time anyway. Not sure what you are referring to.

There are many aspects of a best gun which add zero to its longevity or its accuracy. It is very possible that this gun shoots as well as any other double. I wouldn't doubt it a bit.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (07/08/13 02:29 AM)

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oldcolonel
.224 member

Reged: 11/04/13
Posts: 30
Loc: Kansas

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Huvius]
#233672 - 07/08/13 04:02 AM

Wow, potentially awesome gun for the money,

I have long been a big fan of Belgian guns as being great guns and undervalued in the market

Edited by oldcolonel (08/08/13 09:20 AM)

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39343
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: oldcolonel]
#233683 - 07/08/13 05:50 AM

With people many times claiming a double rifle is out of reach of the common man, worth keeping a record of this good buy. IMO. Sold for just over $3000 as the auction bid price.

Fabrique D'Armes Unies de Liege S.Ame .303 Savage

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1136
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233687 - 07/08/13 06:06 AM

Hello Nerdmann,

I think you are correct, Holland and Holland is a much better choice. Only hard part was drilling through the side locks for the electrical cord. They kept falling out so I finally glued them in place with epoxy, making sure that the screws were lined up.

I'm thinking about making a matching lamp with a Boss & Co 20 gauge. They are plentiful.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:20 PM)

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Buchsemann
.333 member

Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: NitroX]
#233688 - 07/08/13 06:07 AM

Buckstix,

Did you manage to snag this one as well? Running with Curl's hunch I logged into Gunbroker and noticed the buyer was "b......x"; sure could be you I guess. If so, you must have a horse-shoe up your tail. Your purchase of the Westley Richards .375 with the 16" barrels was a spot of luck, when the rest of us seemed to have missed it, and now this nicely priced (as it turned out) toy. The seller seems to have had the date of production wrong so who knows, maybe he has the chambering incorrect as well and you have yourself a .303 British; such would make a nice cherry on top of your new purchase. It's still a lucky find if it is indeed a .303 Savage. Do let us know what a chamber cast tells you.

Mark

PS - I haven't run out of fingers as yet but let's see: Fraser 9.3X74R, Lefauxcheau 8mm Lebel, Westley Richards .375 Flanged, William Richards .577 BPE, Stendebach 8X57JR and now a Belgian .303 "Something"; all in the last year or so. Have I forgotten any? I think most will agree that you have a pretty severe case of "Doublerifleitis"; not that there is anything wrong with that of course

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by Buchseman (07/08/13 06:09 AM)

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Claydog
.375 member

Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 934
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233689 - 07/08/13 06:08 AM

I wondered where the chord would go, well done, would love to see one on a purdey.

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Buchsemann
.333 member

Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Claydog]
#233690 - 07/08/13 06:13 AM

Ah Buckstix, I hit "OK Submit" a tad after you showed up. So there it is, you did buy it. Good for you.

Nice lamp BTW.

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Buchsemann]
#233692 - 07/08/13 06:17 AM

"If so, you must have a horse-shoe up your tail. Your purchase of the Westley Richards .375 with the 16" barrels was a spot of luck, when the rest of us seemed to have missed it, and now this nicely priced (as it turned out) toy."

No, I reckon application and dogged pursuit.

I have been looking for a specific product in a specific size sine January to replace one's that have worn out over the last 5 years. Be buggered if I could find any at a reasonable price. In the interim, in Jan I purchased an alternative to tied the person over.

I just kept looking every week or two on the net, especially world wide and last week I found a pair, size 14, thought they would do so purchased them for mate and had them sent off.

Over the moon is an understatement ! So much so, I got on the case again and managed to track down a few more pairs at a cheaper price so bought those (discontinued product so it was a case of buy now or lose them).

Relate that to Doubles, I think you need to keep abreast of what turns up on NE, AR, GunsInternational, GunsAmerica, GunBroker every week if you are to find these little gems.

And obviously buckstix does and good luck to him.

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1136
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: NitroX]
#233696 - 07/08/13 06:24 AM

Hello Nitrox,

Well, an unexpected acquisition to say the least. I actually found it by accident while searching for info on my Stenda-Werke 8x57R. So, I tagged it with a minimal bid just to track how high it would go, never thinking I would actually get it so cheap.

I'll give a detailed hands-on review later this week or early next. I'm thinking that since the seller got the date wrong, (1949 not prewar) maybe the caliber is wrong also. I'm crossing my fingers that maybe, just maybe, its 303 British. How cool would that be? Anyone every heard of a 303"S" being some kind of British loading?

Everyone help me by crossing your fingers too. ? ? ? ?

But, it is likely going to be a 303 Savage. Back in the 1920's the 303 Savage cartridge had a big following in the eastern United States for moose. (I don't agree) Its been around since the 1899 Savage lever action hit the market, and the heavier 190g factory loading did a fair number on big game with properly placed bullets. I think mostly due to good penetration, not energy.

I found this reference while searching the internet. I think this catalog listing is from the 1940's or 50's under the FAUL brand name "Centaure".

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:20 PM)

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233697 - 07/08/13 06:37 AM

Well done buckstix.

What is that, two light / medium calibre double rifles
for under $6000 or $7000 ?

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#233698 - 07/08/13 06:44 AM

Quote:

I tagged it with a minimal bid just to track how high it would go, never thinking I would actually get it so cheap.

So you do that too? It's surprising to get a notice you have bought something when days later you scarcely remember bidding! I've had it happen several times - some to the good; some not so good.

This one looks to the good.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1136
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Buchsemann]
#233703 - 07/08/13 07:46 AM

Hello Buchseman,

Quote:

PS - I haven't run out of fingers as yet but let's see: Fraser 9.3X74R, Lefauxcheau 8mm Lebel, Westley Richards .375 Flanged, William Richards .577 BPE, Stendebach 8X57JR and now a Belgian .303 "Something"; all in the last year or so. Have I forgotten any? I think most will agree that you have a pretty severe case of "Doublerifleitis"; not that there is anything wrong with that of course.

Well, you are close. My sickness with "Doublerifleitis" is much worse than you can imagine. It really does have me seeing double.

First, in December of 2012 I got my first double rifle, a Dan'l Fraser 9.3x74R. A wonderful trade deal- no cash. This one must have infected me, and caused my illness.

Second, in February I got the Cute little Lefaucheux 8mm Lebel. Lots of Fun.

Third, in March came a Baikal 45-70 that worked to pass the time while waiting for the other 2 doubles to cool. (I sold the Baikal to a Northern Wisconsin Hunter in April. He wanted a Bear gun.)

Forth, in May I got a brand new Sabatti. Why in the world would the Italians make a 9.3x74R that weighed only 6 pounds 15 ounces? (2 SHOTS ... & GONE THE NEXT DAY)

Fifth, in June I got the Westley Richards 375-2-1/2" Flanged with the 16" barrels. I was really lucky, and I love this one. I've got over a hundred rounds through it, and it makes me smile every time it barks.

Sixth, in June I also got a minty Pedersolli 45-70. Its nice and heavy and very accurate, and again it helps to pass the time while waiting for the other doubles to cool off.

Seventh, in July I got the William Richards 577-500 bpe. That one was actually kinda in the works when the WR showed up unexpectedly. As much as I really wasn't going to buy it, I just couldn't justify passing on this really nice 577-500 hammer double, that also came with over $1200 worth of accessories, "and" was a "trade" deal that required very little cash outlay. I'm learning "paper-patch" now. Thanks Roscoe.

Eighth, in late July I bought the "Special" Stenda-Werke 8x57R as a tribute to my Special Dad. He would have liked this one.

Ninth, and now in August, this nifty little Belgium 303 Savage comes along. Very much unexpected, kinda like a "seizure" in my sickness. A "twitch" and it was mine. I can't wait to see it.

So, with 2 having gone away, that leaves me with only 7 doubles now. Based on that, I think I'm slowly getting better. I've promised myself that 7 is my lucky number. So, no more, and then I will be cured!

However, I must tell you all, about this strange disease. The real symptoms of my disease, come from a "micro-bladder" problem. I drink a lot of water every night before I go to bed. I wake up 2 or 3 times in the night and have to "pee", and I always have a hard time going back to sleep. So, I leave my computer on all night and I scan the internet for a half hour or so, until I get tired. Then I go back to bed, until I have to pee again. I do that 2 or 3 times a night, every night, every day, seven days a week, month after month. And THAT'S, how I find my deals. Scanning the internet in the wee hours of the morning.

Peeing a lot, can be very rewarding.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:21 PM)

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233704 - 07/08/13 07:53 AM

Well, not bad going, three really great pick ups in that lot IMHO.

I have the same problem !

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Buchsemann
.333 member

Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 439
Loc: Wisconsin, USA

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#233706 - 07/08/13 08:23 AM

So, not so much a horse-shoe up your tail or "... application and dogged pursuit" but more the drinking of lots of water before you go to bed and leaving the computer on all night. Interesting, I'll have to give that a go; what I have been doing certainly hasn't been working all that well, at least not lately.

Cheers!

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

Edited by Buchseman (07/08/13 08:24 AM)

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39343
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Buchsemann]
#233716 - 07/08/13 07:04 PM

Jesus Buckstix,

You are going to be lighting up your whole house with all those excellent lampstands!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1136
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: NitroX]
#233806 - 08/08/13 10:51 PM

Hello,

I've been sitting here waiting for the 303 Belgium double to arrive, and it started me thinking. As far as resale value goes, would it be more valuable as a 303 British, or a 303 Savage.

I've been hoping that it might be a 303 British, but then I started thinking that the 303 Savage would be a lot more rare. I easily found loaded ammo, dies, and brass for the 303 Savage without any problem. And, if you can't find brass, 30-40 Krag brass can be reformed with ease.

Factory data from the 1940's for the 303 Savage has a 190 grain bullet traveling just under 2000 fps. All cartridges of that era were strictly for hunting. Today's loadings use 170 & 180 grain hunting bullets. With the 303 Savage being a true .308 dia. there are literally dozens of jacketed and lead bullets to choose from for hand loading.

Factory data from the 1940's for the 303 British however is much different, with very little hunting ammo available at that time. What little I could find, listed a 215 grain bullet traveled at 1850 - 2050 fps. Not all that superior, "in the day". And although there are many more .312 bullets to choose from today for hand loading, there are far fewer choices than .308 dia. bullets.

So what do you guys think? Should I keep hoping for a .303 British, or, would the 303 Savage be neater?

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:23 PM)

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233807 - 08/08/13 11:06 PM

IMHO, more valuable as a 303 British.

Rarity doesn't always equate to higher value.

You might find someone who has a fetish over 303 Sav
but to most, at least with 303 British you might be
able to use Factory ammo.

And dies, cases etc are much more readily available.

Just my HO.

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joelblack
.275 member

Reged: 05/06/12
Posts: 61
Loc: WI, USA

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#233811 - 09/08/13 12:25 AM

Definitely .303 British. There must be something strange in our Wisconsin water. I have the same disease.

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Nordmann
.300 member

Reged: 05/07/13
Posts: 166
Loc: Denmark

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: joelblack]
#233814 - 09/08/13 01:35 AM

I would be hoping that it gets lost in shipping!

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5275
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: joelblack]
#233815 - 09/08/13 01:35 AM

I think the rifle would have more resale value as a Brit. There's something really nice about a double chambered in .303 British. Definitely a classic.

Americans didn't have any tradition of double barreled rifles. Until this thread I had never heard nor even dreamed of a double rifle chambered in .303 Savage. However, I have seen and handled various English double rifles chambered in .30-30, and even a greater number chambered in .32-40.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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buckstix
.400 member

Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1136
Loc: Whitetail Country

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233824 - 09/08/13 04:27 AM

Well hello Nerdmann,

Quote:

"..I would be hoping that it gets lost in shipping!.."

Not a surprising comment from you. Others will surely take note of your contribution to this discussion.

Hello Joel,

Quote:

Definitely .303 British. There must be something strange in our Wisconsin water. I have the same disease.

Well, we'll have to wait and see. And, YES, I believe its something in the water. I live in Winnebago County, near lake Winnebago. The name "Winnebago" is an Indian name, and I think it is sometimes translated as: "Wantum Heap Many Doubles", or something similar.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233828 - 09/08/13 05:27 AM

Quote:

I would be hoping that it gets lost in shipping!

Are you breathing rarefied air or something ?

How about coming down to sea level and
what 99% of the population uses.

H&H's, Purdey's, Boss's, WR's have a place but
sometimes it is nice to just own and hunt with
a gun that you don't spend 75% of the time out
bush worrying about scratching.

Edited by 500Nitro (09/08/13 05:47 AM)

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233829 - 09/08/13 05:33 AM

"However, I must tell you all, about this strange disease. The real symptoms of my disease, come from a "micro-bladder" problem. I drink a lot of water every night before I go to bed. I wake up 2 or 3 times in the night and have to "pee", and I always have a hard time going back to sleep. So, I leave my computer on all night and I scan the internet for a half hour or so, until I get tired. Then I go back to bed, until I have to pee again. I do that 2 or 3 times a night, every night, every day, seven days a week, month after month. And THAT'S, how I find my deals. Scanning the internet in the wee hours of the morning."
________________

Ross Seyfried says something similar, so during his 3:00 a.m. "thinking sessions," he comes up with wonderful solutions to particular gun/rifle problems he is having at the time. Wonderfully, I have recently been experiencing the same thing; funny as it sounds, just like magic, a key word or two pops in my mind during these "thinking sessions," solving gun/rifle issues I have been trying to solve for a very long time. Give it a try---works for me, and a lot less expensive than surfing internet gun sites!

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: doubleriflejack]
#233831 - 09/08/13 06:22 AM

500Nitro keep taking the pills, and cool your jets, it was actually a joke.

But now you mention it I don't think you would need to spend 75% of your time worrying about scratching it in the bush, although you would need to spend 95% of your time worrying about if it functioned properly in a critical situation. click, click!

There is a fundamental reason why was cheap. So please stop trying to make it into something it isn't.

And buckstix, if you like collecting boat anchors thats fine by me. I gave my opinion, if you don't like it fine, ignore it. Hope you get your bladder problem sorted so you can get some sleep. Seems sleep deprivation causes stress and bad judgement!

Best Nordmann

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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buckstix
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#233834 - 09/08/13 07:11 AM

Hello Nerdmann,

Quote:

"..I gave my opinion, if you don't like it fine, ignore it.."

Yes, I will. Best thing you've said so far.

Hello 500Nitro,

Bravo! Thank you! We think a lot alike.

Well, it didn't get lost in shipping. I've got it in hand.

Its got: beautiful fine engraving, a hinged front trigger, ejectors, bushed firing pins, hidden third-bite, gold inlay "S" safety, mint bores, 100% of its original case color, and 100% of its original deep blue finish. The wood has a few bumps from neighbors in the gun cabinet. It has wonderful balance, good sites, and its "tight" as a bank vault. .............. and ............ "ITS UNFIRED".

And by the way, did I mention that the serial number is "2".

I did some investigating and found that it came from an estate where the heirs said it was never used. They said their Dad inherited it from a brother that passed away unexpectedly in the early 1950's. He was from up in New England - New Hampshire, Vermont, or Maine area, they weren't sure. They said it was NEW when their Dad got it, and he never fired it, just kept it in the gun cabinet, for years. When their Dad passed, their Mom left it in the gun cabinet, for many more years. When Mom passed, it got sold with the other estate items.

Here it is shown (bottom) for size comparison with my 20ga side-lock (top) and my 28ga box-lock. (middle)

The frame size is actually a lot smaller than my 20ga., and a little smaller than my 28ga. Its narrow, light, dainty, and swings like a soft breeze.

I took a lot of random pictures. Take a look below.

I personally would have passed on the carved stock. I think its a Caribou, or a trophy Elk. Not sure. Although its very nicely done, its not something I especially like. I don't believe in carving stocks on hunting rifles. Decorative carving should be reserved for German Schuetzen rifles. ...... however .........,

I'll learn to live with the carving, because someday, I might want to make it into a lamp!

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:24 PM)

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CptCurl
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233835 - 09/08/13 07:21 AM

So what the heck caliber is it??????????

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233836 - 09/08/13 07:22 AM

Faaaarrrrrkkkkkk, that is in far better nick than I thought
it was. You got a bargain.

I see it has a bit of a hidden third bite, interesting.

What about the chamber / Caliber ?

Have you tried a 303 case in it ?

Edited by 500Nitro (09/08/13 07:23 AM)

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CptCurl
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233837 - 09/08/13 07:23 AM

By the way, that disease is rampant in Alleghany County. Wish I could get a cure.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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kuduae
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233838 - 09/08/13 07:27 AM

Nordmann, does a double rifle made by the Birmingham guntrade gain reliability just because it was send by Pople & Sons to London and sold there as a second grade "Holland & Holland"? Or a Liege, Belgium made dr because it was sold in London as a W.J.Jeffery? Granted, the Liege guntrade made lots of cheap guns for the colonial and mail-order market, but they also made numbers of very nice and reliable guns for the upper end of the market. Fabriques d'armes unies de Liege S.A. was a cooperative of many small gunmakers and served both ends of the market. Up to the 1960s they offered their "Centaure" Colt Navy copies, very much sought after now by muzzleloader shooters because of their quality which is even better than Colt's 1860s. IMHO fools buy guns for the "name", knowing men rate guns by their inherent quality. Even the "name" British makers sold common junk, especially during the hard post-WW2 years. Recently I refused an offer to buy an original Rigby .275 bolt action for a mere Euro 500.-. Though it had the posh Rigby engraving it was built postwar on an ex-military 98k action with a clumsy stock, definitely not to the maker's pre-war standards. Well, the Mauser, Oberndorf factory was no more… And I remember a Holland & Holland .375 rifle of the same period. An Enfield P14 action, light alloy magazine box, checkering cut lopsided…
IMHO here we have a classic example of a gun not seen by a lot of fools because it has no "Name" and is advertized chambered for a pipsqueak obsolete cartridge. A rifle made by the same men, only say in .450-400 and inscribed with the Jeffery, London address would certainly have attracted many more bidders.
From the photos I rate this dr well above average boxlock dr quality, be them made in Birmingham, Liege, Suhl or elsewhere. Just look at the scroll-back action body and how it is stocked to the fences. I have never seen such a boxlock before. It takes a very skilled stocker to head up such a stock.

--------------------
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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: kuduae]
#233839 - 09/08/13 07:39 AM

Nordmann's comments remind me of a WR Boxlock, Extractor in 500/465 I have. Short barreled job, border engraving only,
very little CCH hardening left.

Yet everybody who sees or handles it loves it, numerous
people have said that one gun could be used around the world.

It's been dropped, rained on, scratched but do I worry,
no, not at all.

Does it look pretty ? No
Is it a "best" gun ? No
Is it well made ? Yes
Does it work all the time ? Yes

I would put this 303 gun in the same ball park
but for a "light" double.

I would be proud to own, shoot and hunt with it !!!

Edited by 500Nitro (09/08/13 07:41 AM)

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buckstix
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233840 - 09/08/13 07:40 AM

Hello Curl,

Quote:

"... So what the heck caliber is it?????????? ..."

Oh, I forgot to mention, the New England brother was an avid "Savage" collector.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233841 - 09/08/13 07:44 AM

So 303 Savage.

Anyway, GREAT pick up, well done !!!

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CptCurl
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233842 - 09/08/13 07:49 AM

My dad wasn't much of a hunter, but he could shoot what he aimed at. The rifle he used was a Savage 99 (or ita predecessor) chambered in. 303 Savage.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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DarylS
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233844 - 09/08/13 08:18 AM

190gr. @ 1,960fps, wasn't it?
just a guess

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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buckstix
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: DarylS]
#233846 - 09/08/13 08:26 AM

Hello Daryl_S,

Quote:

".. 190gr. @ 1,960fps, wasn't it? just a guess.."

Yes, that's about right. According to writer Chuck Hawks ... "Standard American factory loads for the .303 Savage drove a round nose 190 grain bullet at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1980 fps and muzzle energy of 1650 ft. lbs. The 200 yard figures were 1440 fps and 875 ft. lbs. The midrange trajectory (maximum rise) of this load was 1.3" over 100 yards, 6.2" over 200 yards"

I've been doing some research on the 303 Savage and I'm finding some very interesting info. Invented in 1895 for the model 1895 which was later improved to the 1899 with minor changes.

It seems that in the very early, early loading, Savage loaded an "over-bore" sized .311 bullet for the rifle which had a .308 bore in order to increase the pressures of the cartridge, thereby giving higher velocities. Pressures / Velocities that were not obtainable in a small capacity case using the powders of the day. Only sometime later, with the advent of better powders, was the bullet dia. reduced to .308 dia.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Buchsemann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233847 - 09/08/13 08:28 AM

WOW! My jaw dropped on my keyboard.

Anyway, it appears that over these last several days a shit load of planets aligned quite nicely for a certain someone.

Tell me; look out your window and let me know if you see formations of flying pigs passing over your neighborhood as well.

Your recent purchase is certainly an example to all of us that "things" can happen, ... nice things.

All silliness aside, congratulations and enjoy!

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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Claydog
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Buchsemann]
#233849 - 09/08/13 08:38 AM

Agree, congratulations on the purchase and good to hear of someone having a win.

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buckstix
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Claydog]
#233856 - 09/08/13 10:54 AM

Thank you Claydog,

I thought that perhaps this little double was built under the the Centaure brand by FAUL, but those guns all seem to have had the Centaure logo or the Centaure name stamp.

This little double rifle has a stamp on the underside of each barrel, nearest the breech, that looks like a "Chicken-Head" with its mouth open. Does anyone know what this logo means?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:25 PM)

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livinus
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Loc: belgium

Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233859 - 09/08/13 11:20 AM

Made by a consortium of Liege gunmakers, it's a good quality (for Liege) double rifle. For some reason they made them in 303 savage also (for the American market?)
The cosmetics are a bit off, but the mechanics are top quality for sure. A good deal, but on the Belgian market you can find better quality guns for less money.
Greetings,
Livinus

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: livinus]
#233860 - 09/08/13 11:30 AM

Isn't it interesting how the Beglian market made quite a lot of guns for the English market in odd or English calibres.

303 Savage, 318 WR and many more.

Either someone in England saw an opportunity and went over
and organised it or vice versa.

It would be interesting to know which way round it occurred
and how many different guns were made and what calibres.

The only guns I have never liked in DR's have been
Cogswell and Harrison 375 2 1/2 which I think were
made there as well. No engraving at all on most.

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Sville
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233866 - 09/08/13 06:52 PM

Its the trade mark of Jean Falla. Made barrels of very good quality. I have the same trade mark on my DR. /Staffan

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233869 - 09/08/13 07:37 PM

Ok...have to admit it looks much better in the latest pics, than it did in the original auction listing.

Might have to eat some humble pie and say that it looks like a fairly well made gun and good value for money. Far to good for a lamp stand! Still not keen on the caliber though, but thats something else, and a cheek piece might have been a better investment than that carving on the stock.

Please note* some of my comments were actually meant to be a wind up, but it seems that although the American language was directly influenced by the English language... the humor is def not the same!

buckstiffy I wish you the best of luck with it, and if you do ever decide to make a lamp stand out of it, please make sure you fit a 3 pin UK plug!

Best
James

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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buckstix
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Sville]
#233873 - 09/08/13 08:25 PM

Hello Nordmann,

Quote:

"...Might have to eat some humble pie and say that it looks like a fairly well made gun and good value for money..."
.
.

"...Far to good for a lamp stand!..."

Oh sure ... now you tell me ? ? ?

Quote:

"...Still not keen on the caliber though, but thats something else, and a cheek piece might have been a better investment than that carving on the stock..."

Yes Nordmann, I agree. The caliber is very, very unusual for a double rifle. But since I already had a 577/500 on the large side, and a 8mm Lebel on the small side, (with 8x57R, 9.3x74R, .375, 45-70 in the middle) a double rifle with a smaller 30 cal. cartridge, will fit nicely into my collection, and will be a lot of fun to play with.

As for the stock carving, I agree. I would have preferred a "plain stock" with some nice figured grain instead. But, I'll learn to like it. In my opinion, stock carving should be reserved for "happy" Schuetzen rifles, like found on my Burgsmuller 8.15x47R.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:26 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233876 - 09/08/13 09:21 PM

Hello Sville,

Yes, thank you. That's it! - Jean Falla,

A reference on "Littlegun.be" indicates:

"...Jean FALLA was a manufacturer of weapons and manufacturer of barrels in Liege Street New Bonne, 35. He used in particular the trade mark and engraved with the serrated roller “head of eagle - Acier comprimé CAP JF” It acted of a steel high strength allowing the manufacture of extra-light barrels..."

And, thank you Kuduae,

for this information,

"...That mark is indeed the mark of the barrel maker Jean Falla for Cockerill compressed steel. ...I found this ad in the Gadisseur & Druart book..."

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:26 PM)

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kuduae
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233877 - 09/08/13 10:07 PM

This double rifle is even better than I thought! When I typed the post above I had only the crappy auction photos to look at. Regarding the "light" .303 Savage chambering: elsewhere on this forum there is a thread by a member, contemplating to have a double rifle in .30-30 built by Chapuis, iirc. The only advantage over this Belgian dr would be the ready availability of factory fodder. The French maker will be pressed hard to achieve the quality and handling of this humble Belgian rifle. And, having such a special order rifle made will set the future owner back several times as much as buckstix paid for this rifle.
IMHO the distracting stock carving was custom added after the rifle arrived in America, as it shows a caribou. Stock carvings were rarely done in Liege. A cheekpiece is completely unnecessary on such a light rifle. Personally, I have no use for cheekpieces anyhow, as my face touches only an area about one inch wide on the comb, except on very thick cheekpieces like those on Schützenrifle stocks, clumsy looking on a hunting gun.
Jean Falla, Liege, was a barrelmaker who used several marks to denote different steels they used. The eagle's head denoted compressed steel by the Belgian Cockerill steelworks near Liege. Here is an ad from the interwar years:

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:27 PM)

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A10ACN
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: kuduae]
#233888 - 10/08/13 12:53 AM

First- nice rifle! GREAT buy! Enjoy!

Second- nothing wrong with 303 Sav. Nice cartridge. Don't make it what it ain't (303 Brit). With all the calibers you own, I think you will be quite pleased with this- if the rifle shoots, which there is no indication it will not, thanks to quality construction, fine barrels, and great condition.

Third- Enjoy!

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kuduae
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233908 - 10/08/13 04:55 AM

Nordmann:

Quote:

So your saying I can't have my own opinion now?
It's certainly not perfect, hence the price!

Bargains are possible, even on internet auctions. You must only know more about guns than the seller and much more than the fools that look for "names" only. I reposted a lesser bargain than Buckstix' here:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=233903&an=0&page=0#Post233903

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: kuduae]
#233909 - 10/08/13 05:21 AM

kuduae...I do buy guns off the net or at auctions almost every week, but I am not in the habit of advertising how much I paid for them on a forum, because that would defeat the object of business. I tend to look for names first, then condition, then caliber, then price, whats included in the package and finally the location. normally in that order.

So if that makes me a fool by your reckoning I'm not too bothered!

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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kuduae
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233912 - 10/08/13 06:03 AM

Nordmann, apparently you are acting as a dealer. I am no dealer, so I have no object of business to disturb. If you look for "names" first, that may be ok for your business, but you will miss many unsung masters, especially Suhl ones. Or, have you ever looked for Schmidt & Habermann, Christoph Friedrich Triebel, Edgar Strempel or Stephan Heym? These were some of the real gunmakers who made the guns bearing more famous names like Brenneke, Barella and Nagel & Menz.

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: kuduae]
#233913 - 10/08/13 06:08 AM

Nordmann

"but I am not in the habit of advertising how much I paid for them on a forum, because that would defeat the object of business. "

1 person, in Germany, posting a post on a forum from Australia.

IF he was to sell it, a PUBLIC record already exists on what he paid for it and not only that, a record that is much more likely to be found by a buyer than what he posts on here.

So I really don't think it is an issue for him.

For you, yes, I understand but the Public auction site
still exists for any guns you purchased.

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: kuduae]
#233914 - 10/08/13 06:10 AM

Kuduae, they are "off my piste" sorry, but each to his own, and there are certainly some fabulous German /European guns, and the best of all in my arena today are Hartmann & Weiss. Only German gun I currently own is a model 87 Mauser carbine in 9.5 x 60 R black powder. I think, from what you say, you will appreciate that.

http://www.jamesedition.com/lifestyle-co...l-mauser-638869

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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CptCurl
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233920 - 10/08/13 06:53 AM

Quote:

Only German gun I currently own is a model 87 Mauser carbine in 9.5 x 60 R black powder. I think, from what you say, you will appreciate that.

http://www.jamesedition.com/lifestyle-co...l-mauser-638869

Wow! That is a masterpiece! I would love to see and handle that rifle. Marvelous!

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233921 - 10/08/13 06:56 AM

500Nitro

Usually buying directly for a client, on their instructions in exchange for a fee, so not to resell retail.

But ..you are right, buying anything at auction is a problem because the prices become common knowledge.

However it doesn't affect some things

Last month, at an auction at Sotheby's in London, a rare Nasrid "ear dagger" from fifteenth century Spain sold for Au3.7 million ($6million). It was reportedly bought by the Doha Museum of Islamic Art. The weapon, named for the two circular "ears" on its handle, fetched the top price during London's Islamic Art Week. Yet six months earlier, the dagger was sold for a far more modest price of e1/4210,000 ($290,000) at Czerny's auction house in Italy.

Nice profit in 6 months $5,710,000! Especially when it was said to be a FAKE!

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233922 - 10/08/13 06:58 AM

Yes, I remember the thread on that dagger.

Well, you know auctions, it's for the buyer to do the research. You buy it, your problem !!!

(Although I gather that this rule doesn't apply to art !)

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#233923 - 10/08/13 07:01 AM

Hi Roscoe, Yep that Mauser is fab. Best one in existence! And even better in the hand than in the photo.
Will mail you when I get the full documentation/factory letters from H&H on the .375. Been running around. Best .James

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233930 - 10/08/13 07:33 AM

Nordmann

Here is an example.

To you, that Mauser is fab, to be it is an over embellished
bolt action, even if it is very finely made and rare.

On the other hand, I can, and do, appreciate all of the
nice H&H's et al you post.

As someone at H&H said once, rarity does not equate to "best" and I'll add doesn't always equate to value,
even if they are interesting.

To some, the MS posted above or the Belgian Boxlock
are master pieces to people who like that type of firearm.

It's all relative.

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#233931 - 10/08/13 07:57 AM

500Nitro ...what are you talking about..you lost me ...best is best my friend. Your explanation is wasted on me!

You have Best, Worst and everything in between!

That 87 Mauser is FABULOUS, without doubt the best example in existence and has a provenance to match, but apparently according to you I am the only person who believes that!

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233932 - 10/08/13 08:03 AM

To you (and Curl) it might be fabulous, best and everything else but that doesn't mean I like it.

And as I said before, a personal opinion can be different
from a critique !!!

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kuduae
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#233933 - 10/08/13 08:53 AM

500Nitro, sorry, but you are wrong here. All my guns are registered, but only as to type, make, caliber and serial number. So I have no problem telling serial numbers. Prices I paid are not registered. Further, the registration files are not "public". Only licensing authorities, police, state attornies and judges have access. As I have no financial or business interests I feel free to publish prices I paid too. F.i. in 1992 I paid the big sum of Deutsche Mark 168.- (about $ 110.-) for some "noble junk", a sidelock 12 bore side by side in really sorry state, made by Purdey, London in 1883, but that's another story.

As a German upgrade German gun dealer once said: "each gun is worth as much as the next guy who thinks, he cannot live without it, is willing to pay."

Nordmann, that M87 Mauser leaves me cold. IMHO it is simply an overdecorated, technically common gun. It reminds me of several gold, silver and gem sprinkled rifles seen at IWAs in recent years. These were made by/for Blaser on common R93 actions for sale to Worthy Oriental Gentlemen. (BTW, I grow pimples from touching Blaser guns.) I am more interested in aspects that make a gun safe, reliable, elegant, easy handling, durable and accurate. Engraving may be the frosting on the cake, but only if not overdone.

Regardless of "value" I would like to own and use that "noname" FAUL Belgian double rifle, the objective of this thread Buckstix bought inadvertedly, more than that M87, despite the fact that the .303 Savage is marginal at best for legal "big game" use here in Germany (2000 joule minimum energy at 100 meters).

To each his own!(originally Friedrich II, king of Prussia) or "de gustibus non est disputandum" (Latin: No use discussing taste)

Edited by kuduae (10/08/13 09:53 AM)

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: kuduae]
#233934 - 10/08/13 10:00 AM

"To you (and Curl) it might be fabulous, best and everything else but that doesn't mean I like it."

I love it, and I am sure there is someone out there (other than Curl) who also has fabulous taste and or unlimited funds who loves it as well. Im thinking Russian Oligarch or Middle Eastern Oil Sheik. Would look nice in the office on a $500M yacht. Best thing is almost anyone can own it off license and if the ships motor burns out they could always use it as a paddle!

Best
Nord.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233939 - 10/08/13 11:32 AM

"Russian Oligarch or Middle Eastern Oil Sheik."

Ah yes, they do have some uses.

Not liking it myself doesn't mean I wouldn't do what you are doing.

Personal guns are one thing, guns for sale are another.

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buckstix
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#233943 - 10/08/13 01:30 PM

Quote:

"...Best thing is almost anyone can own it off license and if the ships motor burns out they could always use it as a paddle!..."

or ...... they could make it into a lamp.

Unlike Nordmann with his fancy M87, ... "I" will be "shooting" my little noname FAUL Belgium 303 Savage Double Rifle. I'll let you all know how it shoots.

A very knowledgeable gunman once said; "If you don't shoot it, it ain't worth owning." (H.S.)

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#233950 - 10/08/13 06:50 PM

waiting in anticipation to hear the results Buckstix. All good fun.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#234346 - 16/08/13 10:37 PM

Hello All,

I've had a bit of a delay in shooting. I had some surgery done and the doctor says I need to wait 6 weeks before I can shoot. That was 3 weeks ago, so I think I'll give it a go this weekend.

Mean time, I've cased the little beauty in a "toe-under" case that shows the right side of the stock with the delicate carving.

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:28 PM)

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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#234350 - 17/08/13 12:42 AM

Very nice!

I hope your surgery went well and that you have a full and speedy recovery.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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Nordmann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: CptCurl]
#234351 - 17/08/13 01:05 AM

doctor says I need to wait 6 weeks before I can shoot. That was 3 weeks ago, so I think I'll give it a go this weekend.

That makes perfect sense!

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Nordmann]
#234353 - 17/08/13 03:26 AM

buckstix

Looks good.

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buckstix
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#234428 - 18/08/13 10:43 PM

Hello,

Apparently the 303 Savage cartridge had a reputation as a "one-shot" killer of Caribou, as shown in this early 1900's advertisement
for the model 1899 rifle.

This might explain the stock carving.

Surprisingly, another period ad deemed the diminutive cartridge was also suitable for Grizzly.

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:29 PM)

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Buchsemann
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#234431 - 19/08/13 12:54 AM

Nice find and a fun little rifle for sure. I'm looking forward to seeing how it shoots.

It's clear that you move quickly on seemingly all things gun related, and I'm guessing other issues as well, but it sounds like your doctor wants you to behave yourself when it comes to shooting after your surgery. Granted, if the doctor of which you mention is a podiatrist and your surgery was the removal of a bunion I wouldn't see some time on the bench as a big deal. The little Belgian beauty can wait a little longer; a few more weeks is nothing in comparison to the years it has waited already. Just say'n.

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden

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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Buchsemann]
#234434 - 19/08/13 02:55 AM

In "Firearms of the American West 1865 - 1896" there is a picture of 2 hunters with one of more grizzlies - the hunters have earliest version of the 1899 Savage - the 94 or perhaps 1895 - in .303 Savage.
Regardless of the actual rifle model, the picture is in the book.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Igorrock
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: DarylS]
#234439 - 19/08/13 06:16 AM

I´m not familiar with .303 Savage and it´s killing power but in 1950´s and -60´s some local famous bearhunters here in Finland used to shoot their bears with 6,5x52R aka .25-35 Win. It was very popular caliber in those times and VALMET made their first combo in this caliber with 16/70. IMO the placement of the shot is more inportant than the power...

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: Igorrock]
#234440 - 19/08/13 06:25 AM

Agree re "the placement of the shot is more inportant than the power..."

A small calibre, and in those days 303 of any sort was looked on as more than capable would have been used for anything just
like in Aus when 303 was used extensively for Buffalo.

Of course I very much doubt that the people in the early days
tried to do what the people in this video tried to do.

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buckstix
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#234442 - 19/08/13 07:48 AM

Well,

Although the Doctor said I should wait 6 - 8 weeks before shooting, I know he must have been talking about bigger calibers, not a 303 Savage. So, I figure 3 weeks and 5 days is long enough to wait, and I headed to the range. When I was finished shooting, my face was sore from the ear-muffs, not from the recoil. (I'm going to try the 8x57R next.)

I'm sure this 303 Double was originally regulated with 190g silver-tip factory ammo. All I had for testing was 2 boxes of generic "white box" custom loads with 170g Flat Point bullets. Once I make all this ammo into "empty brass", I'll reload with proper 190g bullets at the factory velocity of 1980 fps, the velocity of the day.

Here below are the first 6 shots fired in this rifle since it was made in 1949. Although I'm sure the rifle is capable of better groups, with the proper bullet weight, all 6 shots would have hit the heart of a Grizzly or Moose at 50 yards. Note that the barrels have crossed, likely due to the lighter bullets.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 11:29 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#234444 - 19/08/13 08:11 AM

Well done.

It looks like you pulled L3 so if you take that out of the group, I think you have an even better group.

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buckstix
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: 500Nitro]
#234446 - 19/08/13 08:26 AM

Hello 500Nitro,

With my aging eyes, I'm happy if I can just keep all the shots on the paper. Lucky for me I'm aiming at Deer, not Squirrels.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Ash
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Re: Not sure about what to think about this one [Re: buckstix]
#240565 - 13/01/14 10:39 PM

"deer, not squirrels".

Sounds like you need a .22 Hornet double!

--------------------
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