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NitroSteel
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Reged: 06/04/04
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Loc: Georgia, USA

Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double?
#233464 - 04/08/13 11:41 AM

I looked at one of these guns in Georgia (USA) today. I've not been able to find another of these anywhere on the internet for a review or a price comparison. Does anyone have experience with these guns? The sticker price was $25000, but it was offered to me at 18000 (new). I can post a link to this particular gun through an online gun site - if that is not a problem here.

I was initially looking at a Heym 88b PH in the same price range, but didn't know how this compared. I don't want to pay to much, or end up with something that is undesirable.

Please let me know what you think. Any other suggestions?

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233465 - 04/08/13 12:01 PM

Is this your first Double ???????

Is this it ?

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Zanardini-Oxford-470NE.cfm?gun_id=100248178

Light for a 470

Looks like a European gun.

Any proof marks which would tell you where it was made ?

I think for the money you could get one of the makers guns like Heym, Merkel and others, Searcy etc.

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233466 - 04/08/13 12:21 PM

Yes, this would be my first double Yes that's it. It was made in Italy.

I didn't like the way the metal was fit to the wood (not that it wasn't the way it was intended - I just didn't like it as much as some of the others I've seen- you can see it in the pic's). Loved everything else about it - color case hardening, engraving, balance, feel, look, handling, etc.

I've handled the Merkels and liked them, handled a bunch of old English guns - liked most of them. Didn't like the Kreigoff or the Blaser. Read so much good about Heym, most it seems prefer this one over the Merkel. Haven't handled a Heym or a Searcy. It sounds like the early Searcy's maybe weren't up to par (correct me where I'm wrong - please). Don't want to screw up and buy something at a "deal" and regret it. Love the look of the new Searcy's and am not opposed to the Merkel's (less money out of pocket is good...). Not sure that I know enough about what to look for in the English guns to avoid disaster.

How are the Searcy rifles? New versus used/older Searcy? There are alot of used Searcy's floating around it seems.

I'm all ears. Thank you for your help.

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233468 - 04/08/13 01:20 PM

Don't know enough about Searcy's to know but plenty of AR rave about them so they must be good. He makes some superb stuff.

The gun you were looking at, the Wood to metal fit, it's because of the style of raised wood close to the metal
which creates a shadow in the photos.

Some gunmakers like it that way, I prefer slightly raised like the English do it but not that much.

I would have a look and get hold of a Heym and hold one.
There is another make I can't think of ATM.

Re English guns and what to look for, ask like you did here, it's the only way to learn unless you have someone on tap to provide advice.

Also, are you only after a 470 or not sure ?

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NitroX
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233472 - 04/08/13 03:29 PM

One of the biggest claims of the benefits of a Searcy is often that it is easy to send back for repairs or fix ups. One has to keep asking why so many Searcy guns need to be sent back for repairs!!!!????

Lots floating around for sale second hand for good reasons.

Lots of promoters of Searcy's on the net. He allegedly gave some away or hefty discounts in the past to get the "exposure".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroX]
#233473 - 04/08/13 03:40 PM

NitroX

I don't think Searcy's go back any more than any other makes
from what we see on this forum and others.

I think people would say.

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Nordmann
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233476 - 04/08/13 04:45 PM

"I've not been able to find another of these anywhere on the internet for a review or a price comparison"

That looks like a fairly early gun.

MAPIZ do still make that exact model today, its still called "the Oxford"

http://www.zanardini.com/ita/fucile_oxford.htm

Suggest you call them and ask for their price list.

Edited by Nordmann (04/08/13 04:54 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Nordmann]
#233477 - 04/08/13 04:59 PM

It doesn't say whether it has Ejectors or Extractors.

Any idea ?

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233480 - 04/08/13 08:46 PM

Nitrosteel, IMO, too light for a .470 and for the money you are talking you can find a Heym, just my thoughts, as NitroX says I have heard too many "going for repairs" about a certain US manufacturer, best, Mike p.s. if you can get used to the cocking lever on the Kreighoff(and a lot of profesionals in SA have), I think it is a lot of gun for the money. I bought one as a gift for my PH in .500 some years ago, he carries it everywhere

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233481 - 04/08/13 08:57 PM

It was an ejector gun and it was brand new. He said they (owner and the guy I spoke with) went to the guy's shop in Italy and picked out the wood blanks and basically had the gun built (2 identical). Both guns were in Thomasville, GA. He said it was a great gun and told me I could go look at a Heym in AL (named a store that had them in stock). He said he preferred the Italian gun over the German ones. He was very nice, professional and not down on any brand. - I just Have to KNOW what I'm getting. 18k is alot to me.

No, I'm not stuck on 470 N.E. and I've never actually shot a double rifle. I do shoot A LOT though. I do want to get one that is a common caliber - though I plan to reload for it and probably cast the bullets also. I was thinking initially 470 or 500. I'd thought about a 450/400 - which I know would be adequate for most things this gun will acfually do (get fondled and sit in my gun safe 99% of the time). I will do my best to shoot lots of North American big game with it, but am not sure I will ever end up in Africa. Something about dropping huge cartridges in the chamber and closing the vault is just awesome. Really want either the 470 or 500, but would consider others at the right price. No, I can't justify the larger ones...

He had a Cogwell and Harrison in 500 n.e. for 20k. It felt nice, had great fit and finish and I didn't see any cracks or marks on the screws (we never talked serious about price on it). It was made in 1919 (listed on the same site that someone brought out). He suggested I not get a 500 n.e. as a first double. There were lots of english doubles there, but they quickly got out of my price range.

I'm almost positive I want ejectors, don't think I'll settle on a gun without them (try to correct me if I'm wrong). I guess fill me in more on calibers, Searcy's and what to watch for on English doubles. As I said - I'm listening. You can see I've been lurking here quietly years...

Nitrosteel

--------------------
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John Wayne

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233482 - 04/08/13 09:00 PM

One thing to consider is when you come to sell it, will it be easy to sell ?

Sticking as you are with a common calibre will help.

Sticking with a known name / gun is even better and
the gun in your OP is not a gun that will be easy to
move if needed to in a hurry.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233483 - 04/08/13 09:08 PM

As 500Nitro says, if you buy an Italian or Spanish double rifle and need to sell it, it will be harder. If you can get someone to completely check that Cogswell and it is good that is a fine rifle. There is no difference in felt recoil between a .470 and a .500 IF the gun fits and is the right weight and you hold it properly IMO, my .470 seemed to hit me harder than my .500 but the .500 was made for me, best, Mike

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#233484 - 04/08/13 09:24 PM

Mike

Thanks for that. I was going to say the same thing about the Coggie but forgot.

At least well worth looking at and likely to be a Webley and the correct weight !

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#233487 - 04/08/13 09:50 PM

How could I get someone to check the Cogswell (who)? It is within an hour of my house, but I don't know any reasonably qualified gunsmith around here. I don't even like to get my o/u shotguns worked on locally...

You confirmed what I was thinking about this gun, there is no real basis to justify a price for me to later sell this (Zanardini) gun - would be different if it were 1 of 20 that I owned and I was madly in love with it.

I've got to get my hands on a Heym and a Searcy. Will do more research on a Searcy - really like the looks/style. I feel there is no doubt that the Heym is more esteemed (may very be where I settle), but doesn't quite (maybe) have the style of the Searcy - just based on pic's. Also, if I can find a local expert -outside of the shop trying to sell me one, that will help with culling through rifles. On the other hand how trustworthy is a shop typically that is trying to sell these guns?

I may have gotten a bad opinion - but once many years ago on a hunting trip in CO - on the way home, we stopped by a store near/at an airport. I didn't get a good feel that the opinions on guns I asked about were unbiased - not a good experience for me. Maybe I formed a premature opinion, but there I was told not to consider a Merkel and how great another French made gun was. I was rubbed the wrong way (maybe it was just me), many of you probably know the shop and the gun maker I am speaking of. Should I consider "shopping" at this store, or have others had the same experience? If this is a nice place to shop/get advice please tell me and I will try to wash this bad experience from my mind. There appears to be a lot of nice guns there...

Not trying to bash any maker or shop, just trying to make sure I am listening to the facts and unbiased opinions.

Thank ya'll again.

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233490 - 04/08/13 10:02 PM

Verney Caron )I think that's how you spell it)
is another name to look at.

Also Chapuis.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233491 - 04/08/13 10:04 PM

Nitro

Having a nice lot of guns doesn't mean anything.

If they are over priced, they sit there as a lot
seem to do.

Have a look at the Champlins web site.

He seems to price right and move a few.

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pondoro62
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233492 - 04/08/13 10:07 PM

Nitro Steel...I would strongly suggest that you check out the C&G .500 NE, if you can see yourself coping with such a heavy rifle...what an elephant rifle..!

I have looked for a heavy double for years.....I dislike all the german doubles except the Heym (to expensive for me..)

Finally I had a strike of luck and bought a very nice old english double, a Midland Gun Co. in .475x3 1/4, a lovely balanced rifle at 11 lbs +, luckily it is like it was made for me....for USD 6500,-

A rifle in an oddball calibre from a rather unknown maker, but still a great rifle on the Webley action, dolls head extention.

The bargains are still out there....and british vintage rifles hold their value..

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NitroSteel
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Posts: 50
Loc: Georgia, USA

Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233493 - 04/08/13 10:09 PM

That's exactly what i'm getting at:

Champlin's "IS" a nice/fair place to do business and get honest advice/opinions?

if so, cool I will look harder at his guns/site again. Let me know.

Thank you,

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233494 - 04/08/13 10:10 PM

Yes, from what I hear, honest opinions and a fair price.

He moves guns, doesn't sit on them.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233495 - 04/08/13 10:11 PM

Nitrosteel, if you want I can call a friend at Holland and Holland NY tommorow, if you can get the Cogswell on consignment for 10 days or so, you can send it there, they will give you a complete appraisal, check regulation with modern ammo and then you can decide, I would take a good Cogswell over any double rifle made in the US (no offense to anyone on the forum), best, Mike

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#233496 - 04/08/13 10:12 PM

So would I.

A good Coggie, especially if a Webley if all good,
excellent option.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233497 - 04/08/13 10:14 PM

I gather this is the Cogswell 500

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Cogswell-Harrison-500-Nitro-Express.cfm?gun_id=100186158

Just having a look at it now.

Will come back with thoughts.

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233498 - 04/08/13 10:17 PM

Yes, Pondoro. An elephant rifle is what I am wanting (though I'll probably never hunt elephant). How can I know what the fair/great price is on the Cogswell?

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

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CptCurl
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233499 - 04/08/13 10:23 PM

Quote:

I gather this is the Cogswell 500

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Cogswell-Harrison-500-Nitro-Express.cfm?gun_id=100186158

Just having a look at it now.

Will come back with thoughts.

That looks to be a .500BPE to me. Old style fences, light stock with steel buttplate, 9.25 lbs.

I don't think the C&H in this link was built as a .500NE.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233500 - 04/08/13 10:24 PM

First things, for a $20,000 gun he takes lousy photos.
I would expect more effort from someone trying to sell something in that price range - or any price range for that matter, especially with today's easy to use digital cameras.

1. I'd like to see the proof marks on that gun before you do anything.

I just have a sneaking suspicion it may be a Black Powder gun or Nitro for Black powder gun that has been re proofed for 500 Nitro.

Weight 9.25 is light for a 500 Nitro and from that era,
very light. I have had 3 of them and none of them were anywhere near that weight, more like 11 lbs or more.

The stock is also way to light for a 500 Nitro,
my 3 x 500 Nitro's have stocks built like brick
shit houses, thick in the wrist and in the butts.
Again, looks like a BP gun to me.

So that is my initial observation. I may be wrong on
my assumption but the US is notorious for re chambering and / or re proofing guns so they are more "sellable" due to the calibre etc.

You said you didn't know what to look for in English guns so I am being overly cautious in highlighting possible issues to look for.

Finally, the guys descriptions of both guns leaves a fair bit to be desired. I would expect more from someone trying to sell guns at that level, plus the fact he dropped $7,000 off the first gun, to me that says he was hoping some dope would walk in and buy it at that price.

And then when you came along, he thought here is an opportunity to move it on at cost so gave a big discount.

Just my HO, I would be interested in anyone else's thoughts
re any of what I have written above.

Edited by 500Nitro (04/08/13 10:25 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233501 - 04/08/13 10:28 PM

NitroSteel

CptCurl was typing while I was typing.

The fact that both of us said the same thing,
forget the Coggie for the reasons stated.

He is either mis representing the gun (it has not been
re proofed) or it has been re proofed from a BP gun which
at that weight it will kick the shot out of you and
put you off shooting it.

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CptCurl
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: CptCurl]
#233502 - 04/08/13 10:29 PM

To the OP:

You are going to make a heck of a mistake if you buy a .470NE or .500NE for your first double rifle.

Only if you are used to shooting some real stompers in your bolt guns will you want to tackle such a large caliber.

If you intend to buy a double rifle for shooting you should consider a medium bore rifle. An excellent choice would be a 9.3x74R in a nice double. It's plenty for any North American game and won't beat you up like the calibers you are interested in.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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NitroX
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233503 - 04/08/13 10:39 PM

Quote:

NitroX

I don't think Searcy's go back any more than any other makes
from what we see on this forum and others.

I think people would say.

Well not what a couple of previous owners have said. As I said "previous". One was sent back three times.

If I buy a German, French or English rifle, the ability to send it back for repairs easily isn't even a thought. Other than the fact anyone should be offering good follow up service if needed as with any quality supplier.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroX]
#233504 - 04/08/13 10:41 PM

John

OK, thanks

NitroSteel.

Agree with what CptCurl says.

Go a medium bore, you will enjoy it a lot more.

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NitroX
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: CptCurl]
#233505 - 04/08/13 10:44 PM

Quote:

To the OP:

You are going to make a heck of a mistake if you buy a .470NE or .500NE for your first double rifle.

Only if you are used to shooting some real stompers in your bolt guns will you want to tackle such a large caliber.

If you intend to buy a double rifle for shooting you should consider a medium bore rifle. An excellent choice would be a 9.3x74R in a nice double. It's plenty for any North American game and won't beat you up like the calibers you are interested in.

Curl

I think most first time double rifle buyers do buy a stopper calibre DR. .470's are probably the most popular.

The choice needs to be matched to the desired use. A lot of buyers buy them in anticipation of an African trip and if buffalo and the like are the menu it is very appropriate.

If hunting North America, a .375 Flanged Magnum, a .400 or the 9.3x74R are all excellent medium calibre choices.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroX]
#233506 - 04/08/13 10:45 PM

Point taken on the Cogswell. Good call.

Point taken on the 470 and 500, but I am used to shooting "stompers" in bolt guns and plan to stick to the original plan on big african calibers. Though it is only really justified - because that's what I want. Surely we have all been there...

Thank you,

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233507 - 04/08/13 10:48 PM

Barrels 28" ?? Weight completely wrong ??? nitrosteel, hold off, with 20k USD to spend you can find something nice, I do the odd bit of research for Holts in the UK,(http://www.holtsauctioneers.com/) I think you will find something a lot better for the money, a 9.25lb .500 will kick the living sh** out of you, rgds, Mike

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#233509 - 04/08/13 10:55 PM

NitroSteel

At least try to look at this as an option

Chapuis 470 for $11,000 and from someone who knows what DR's are and would probably let you shoot it beforehand.

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=2419

Still looking for others.

Edited by 500Nitro (04/08/13 10:56 PM)

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CptCurl
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
#233510 - 04/08/13 10:56 PM

For a first double in .470 or .500NE you should strongly consider a Merkel from the used market. They are excellent rifles and great value for the money. You should find one for less than $10k and quite possibly less than $8k.

I have a Merkel .500NE, which by number is the third they produced in that caliber. Drive up to Virginia and you can shoot it.

Move up the ladder with your subsequent double rifles. The money you will save on the Merkel is a good start for your second double.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: CptCurl]
#233511 - 04/08/13 10:59 PM

Here is a Heym on the same web site

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=2424

Although worth contacting the guy who sells Heyms in the US
as he has trade ins all the time as well as new Heyms.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233512 - 04/08/13 11:03 PM

The guy who sells Heym in the US had this for sale a while ago.

VC / Verney-Carron (Demas Artisan) AZUR XA 500 NE

A gently used "as new" Verney Caron 500 NE with only a minor handling mark or two on the wood.
Automatic Ejectors, fixed (non-articulated) front trigger. File-cut top rib with one standing, and two folding leaves.
23.5" Mono-Block barrels, with barrel-mounted front swivel (no swivel on buttstock) and Reckagel flip-over night sight.
Pancake cheekpiece and palm swell grip. Anson push-button forend release forend.
14 & 7/8" LOP | 10 pounds, 4 ounces
$13,500.00
$12,500.00 + Shipping and Insurance.

Not a bad gun for the price !!!

I think it is still for sale !

Edited by 500Nitro (04/08/13 11:04 PM)

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NitroX
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233517 - 05/08/13 12:32 AM

Quote:

The guy who sells Heym in the US had this for sale a while ago.

VC / Verney-Carron (Demas Artisan) AZUR XA 500 NE

A gently used "as new" Verney Caron 500 NE with only a minor handling mark or two on the wood.
Automatic Ejectors, fixed (non-articulated) front trigger. File-cut top rib with one standing, and two folding leaves.
23.5" Mono-Block barrels, with barrel-mounted front swivel (no swivel on buttstock) and Reckagel flip-over night sight.
Pancake cheekpiece and palm swell grip. Anson push-button forend release forend.
14 & 7/8" LOP | 10 pounds, 4 ounces
$13,500.00
$12,500.00 + Shipping and Insurance.

Not a bad gun for the price !!!

I think it is still for sale !

Looks like a good deal from Chris Sells.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233518 - 05/08/13 12:46 AM

Quote:

The guy who sells Heym in the US had this for sale a while ago.

VC / Verney-Carron (Demas Artisan) AZUR XA 500 NE

A gently used "as new" Verney Caron 500 NE with only a minor handling mark or two on the wood.
Automatic Ejectors, fixed (non-articulated) front trigger. File-cut top rib with one standing, and two folding leaves.
23.5" Mono-Block barrels, with barrel-mounted front swivel (no swivel on buttstock) and Reckagel flip-over night sight.
Pancake cheekpiece and palm swell grip. Anson push-button forend release forend.
14 & 7/8" LOP | 10 pounds, 4 ounces
$13,500.00
$12,500.00 + Shipping and Insurance.

Not a bad gun for the price !!!

I think it is still for sale !

I'm sure other people have had different results, but I can tell you that I fired a VC .500NE and found it to be the hardest kicking rifle I have ever experienced. The stock obviously didn't fit me and gave me a good belt to the face as well as the shoulder. It made my Merkel .500NE feel like a love tap. The owner of that rifle agreed, and he traded off the rifle not long after that shooting session.

The rifle advertised is not the same one I shot, so stock dimensions may be different. My comments may be entirely off-base as to this rifle.

I guess my point is, the larger the caliber, the more important is proper fit so the recoil can be handled. I didn't measure the dimensions and weight of the VC I shot. I also didn't pick it up to shoot it again! Two rounds were enough to satisfy me with that particular rifle. This statement comes from a guy (me) who has shot many hundreds of rounds through a Merkel .500NE.

Curl

--------------------
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NitroX
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: CptCurl]
#233522 - 05/08/13 01:12 AM

Buying a second hand V-C one gets what one is buying. If getting the L'atelier" model it is bespoke and made to measure.

I have a measurement card in my drawer from V-C, just in case.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroX]
#233524 - 05/08/13 01:42 AM

CptCurl has some very valid points here, fit is very important with doubles, as with all heavy rifles....if it does not fit you will never shoot it right..

I restocked my Brno 602 (.375H&H) recently and jeez what a difference it made....when I throw it to the shoulder the crosshairs are there immediatley....worked splendidly in Namibia in june..

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Nordmann
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233525 - 05/08/13 02:18 AM

"I will do my best to shoot lots of North American big game with it, but am not sure I will ever end up in Africa. Something about dropping huge cartridges in the chamber and closing the vault is just awesome"

A .470 or .500 N might be too big for the majority of North American big game.

Perhaps you may want to consider something smaller, for example a .375 H&H magnum as an all rounder. You can shoot every animal on earth with a .375 without ever being over- and only rarely undergunned.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Nordmann]
#233532 - 05/08/13 03:10 AM

That Chapuis on Chamlins website.

When I first posted that link I actually put a comment
"if the stock fits you" because I know damn well it wouldn't fit me.

So fully agree with posters above, fit is very important.

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Huvius
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233545 - 05/08/13 06:13 AM

Osprey has a nice honest William Evans 450/400 at $20K.
If you can stretch your budget a bit, you may be surprised at your options.
The biggest double I have ever shot myself is a 470 and the recoil was robust but not unmanageable. About on par with my 425 Westley but it does have a steel butt.
You may want to consider a 450/400 or as Nordmann suggests, a .375 simply because with a 470 or 500 you will be overgunned for anything but big brown bears in NA, and it is a big step up in the recoil department. Remember, if the recoil is objectionable, you may have a hard time developing a lighter load which regulates satisfactorily.
It would be a shame to get into a first double and not fully enjoy the experience. I bet a medium double would be perfect for the hunting you plan for and there is always the option of moving up to the bigger rifle if you find doubles to your liking...and lets face it, who doesn't want another double rifle?

--------------------
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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Huvius]
#233546 - 05/08/13 06:22 AM

"If you can stretch your budget a bit, you may be surprised at your options."

After having a look around, I don't think he needs to stretch his budget, I think he could well come under $20k.

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233549 - 05/08/13 06:45 AM

I'm not at all opposed to a 450/400. I personally love the looks of the William Evans that Huvius mentioned. It is a bit out of budget, but perhaps do-able. I didn't realize that a nice/original/old rifle could be had for that price. Is the price on that rifle less than what I am used seeing due to the slightly less popular caliber?

Had not looked at Osprey at all either - never heard of them.

Thank you,

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233550 - 05/08/13 06:56 AM

Nitro

"I'm not at all opposed to a 450/400. I personally love the looks of the William Evans that Huvius mentioned. It is a bit out of budget, but perhaps do-able."

I thought you had a budget of $20k ?

That gun is just under $20k ASKING price so within your budget
or did I miss something ?

And that's before you get any discount.

BTW, I think that is a nie classic gun but looks like an Extractor, not an ejector which I think you said you want.

The calibre is very popular.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233555 - 05/08/13 09:31 AM

This must be one of the quickest threads on NE.

It took off like a rocket with everyone chiming in
and got to 2 pages in short order !!!

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Nordmann
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233556 - 05/08/13 10:17 AM

Yeah.. thread took off like a rocket... everyone is trying hard to spend the guys money!

Take your time Nitrosteel...& Consider:

Any rifle more powerful than a .375 H&H Magnum is getting into the overkill area for North American dangerous game, and even for the great bears. No hunter pursuing dangerous game (especially a self proclaimed novice like you) should saddle himself with a rifle so much more powerful than required that it induces flinching or reduces the chances of accurate bullet placement.

Bullet placement is the key to killing power and a .375 H&H magnum in a vital spot will drop the biggest Kodiak brown bear in Alaska.

You say that there is something about dropping huge cartridges in the chamber and closing the vault is just awesome, and I can relate somewhat to that, but..dropping a 450/400 slug into the gut of a bear because of a flinch is an invitation to disaster. A gut shot bear is an angry bear. Every hunter owes it to himself, the game animal, and innocent bystanders to use a rifle in a caliber that he can consistently shoot accurately.

You say that the rifle you buy "will get fondled and sit in my gun safe 99% of the time".

For that reason buy an original gun with nice engraving, lots of case color and blue, attractive wood, a contemporary look and a nice original case...something you can really enjoy looking at and fondling, and something you can sell down the road because the chances are you will want to trade up to a sidelock one day.

You seem to have given this matter some serious thought, so my advice is spend the extra time to go shoot a few different big bore rifles at the range, find a caliber which you consider comfortable to shoot and then buy the best conditioned rifle in that caliber you can afford.

As Thomas Jefferson once wrote to George Washington: “One loves to possess arms.”

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Nordmann]
#233557 - 05/08/13 10:57 AM

My "budget" was 18k, but $20k is do-able.

I've spent an aweful lot of time shooting a 375 h&h. One customized pre-64 win model 70 that just fits perfectly, recoil is really not bad and shoots like a dream. The other is a Ruger #1 right off the shelf. Oh Lordy what a difference. That thing makes me think a little bit. Also shoot a model 70 338 win mag a good bit. One of my "kings of recoil" is a 6 pound Kimber 325 wsm (mountain rifle). It is borderline aweful - a really fast hard kick that puts the scope in your face, but I shoot it very well - it takes concentration, but I have shot 4 inch groups at 400 yards with it and 1.5" groups at 200. This thing uses about 65 grains of reloader 17. Thats alot of powder in a little bitty gun.

What I'm saying is - I have some medium sized magnum rifles and can shoot them at least decently. I want a big one. Needed? Absolutely not. I'll never argue that... I doubt I can be talked out of it and do realize yall are trying to talk some sense into me. I'll sign a waiver if ya'll will keep giving me advice - hehehe. I really appreciate all of the input. I am learning all the time. I do need to catch up with some folks and try a few guns before I buy.

Oh yeah, and I have seen an angry bear in Canada that was shot WELL... I'll never forget that. Can't imagine how a poorly shot bear could act.

I don't think I've ever posted anywhere that gave me this much input so quickly. I REALLY appreciate it. Thank ya'll for talking me out of this particular Italian gun and giving me the heads up on the Cogswell.

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233558 - 05/08/13 11:02 AM

Is it stupid to want ejectors? I guess this a topic all of it's own, but I pretty much decided that years ago. I could probably be swayed on this with a bit of good argument.

Thanks again.

Nitrosteel

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233559 - 05/08/13 11:07 AM

Ejectors

If you want them, get them.

Wait for the gun that has them unless
one really really takes your fancy.

They are nice but not essential as with practice
you can be almost as fast with extractors.

BTW, Need of caliber doesn't come into it, it's want !!! LOL

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NitroSteel
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233560 - 05/08/13 11:22 AM

That Evans at Osprey really has me drooling...

I don't know why, but that's been near the top of my list for years, right there with Jeffery.

--------------------
"Life is hard. It's even harder if you're stupid."

John Wayne

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Huvius
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233561 - 05/08/13 11:23 AM

I know what you mean about the No.1 in .375H&H.
Haven't shot mine for, oh... about twenty years...
Believe me, I am in no way attempting to talk you out of a 470 or 500! In fact, I have a 450 3-1/4 and a 500NE in the works... and they are both single shots!! And I am eyeballing a 475 No.2 (if I can talk the missus out of wanting a new house...). None of which I need or am too likely to use against dangerous game. Just want them for much the same reason as you do.
So, carry on... but please let us all know what you end up going for and how everything works out.

As an aside, there are some very decent and knowledgeable gents here on NE. None of which (in my own experience) would mind one bit giving you some help with deciding what may be just the right gun for you and then working up a proper load for whatever rifle you do end up getting.
You never know, now that you have your feelers out, something just right may just fall into your lap.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Huvius]
#233562 - 05/08/13 11:29 AM

Nitro

That Evans is a Webley PHV 1 Action, long bar (the bar where the barrels rest).

That action and the Webley Screw Grip are considered the best actions around, or some of the best.

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Huvius
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#233563 - 05/08/13 11:43 AM

Quote:

That Evans at Osprey really has me drooling...

I don't know why, but that's been near the top of my list for years, right there with Jeffery.

Now that I really look at that Evans, it does look a little rough in places. Right side, clean...left side, not so much...
I do like the Webley PHV1 action though. Total classic!
www.martiniandhagngunmakers.com has a couple 470s but neither is a screwgrip action. They are out there...keep looking!

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Huvius]
#233564 - 05/08/13 12:08 PM

Huvius

I see what you mean but it looks minor to me.

Looks like it has rested in it's case when damp
and got a little bit of pitting on it.

Nothing major and maybe a good negotiating point.

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CptCurl
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#233597 - 05/08/13 09:38 PM

I just looked at Osprey's site. The Evans looks pretty good other than the cosmetic pitting on the left side. The bores are described as near perfect. The price is pretty good and seems to account for the pitting. I would want to make double sure the action is tight on the face as the Webley actions aren't the easiest to rejoint. The pin is not replaceable.

He's not showing the barrel flats and doesn't say if it is chambered for the 3" or the 3.25" case. My guess would be 3.25", but that's just an (un)educated guess. The 3" Jeffery case is now considered the "modern" one, but the 3.25" case is just as good and is the "original" .450/.400 NE. I've never owned a 3" example, but have 3 rifles in the 3.25" configuration.

The weight is perfect.

Extractors, not ejectors. But that's not a bad thing. It actually saves some money on the rifle and keeps you from chasing your brass all over the place.

The original maker's case is a plus.

There's a lot of value there. I can think of a couple of sites where the price of this gun would be $5k to $10k higher. Assuming there is a little room to negotiate, a great deal can be had on this rifle.

This rifle could be a fine entry into the ownership of double rifles. It won't be your last!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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470evans
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: CptCurl]
#233617 - 06/08/13 09:17 AM

The Evans is a much better investment in the long run and I love the caliber.

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Wes350
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 470evans]
#234318 - 16/08/13 05:14 AM

I'll be the dissenting voice when it comes to the Zanardini 9lbs 6oz Double being too light for a .470...

Plenty of .458 win mags were made and used in that weight range.

Fit is everything though...

They are local to you, if you otherwise like the gun it would be worth seeing if they will let you run a 5 pack of ammo through it at a local range if you spring for the ammo, to see if it fits you good enough to handle the recoil.

For a potential 18K sale I don't see how they could say no...

.

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doubleriflenut
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: NitroSteel]
#235873 - 21/09/13 01:52 AM

The weight is very light for a 470! This is something I have seen occurring in the past few years. I would like to see the weight at 10 1/2 ponds and up. My Rigby 470 weighed 11.2 pounds and was a pleasure to shoot!

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doubleriflenut
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#235875 - 21/09/13 02:09 AM

George Caswell, the owner of Champlin, is a great guy to work with. He knows his stuff and backs up the guns he sells! A few years back he sold a 465 H&H and the gun blew up when the buyer was shooting the rifle! Luckily, the owner was not injured but the rifle was ruined. George sent him a check for the full amount he paid for the rifle. That does not generally happen.

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500Nitro
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: doubleriflenut]
#235876 - 21/09/13 02:33 AM

I know someone who has a 9lb 470, it is light to carry
but you know it has gone off when it goes off.

Anyone on the "light side" would know it for sure.

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gwh
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#235886 - 21/09/13 08:38 AM

Hi nitro steel, I was in your position at the start of the year. I regularly hunted with my 458 lott and my 375s but always wanted a double. I lashed out and bought a new merkel ejector 470. I have put 100 rounds through it so far and have it shooting very accurately and regulating well with my handloads. I had an aftermarket pad fitted and lengthened the stock slightly and am very happy with it now. Significantly more comfortable to shoot than my lott, the fit is everything. I would certainly support jumping into a 470. It is a big round but it is slow recoil and doesn't belt the snot out of you. I'm currently sitting at the airport with mine and about to fly north to give some water buffalo a touch up with it! If your not worried about the classic British styling, give the merkels a look, they are a well engineered rifle and have all the right features for a hunting double. Cheers Nathan

--------------------
Hunt hard, shoot straight

"I speak of Africa and golden joys; the joy of wandering through lonely lands; the joy of hunting the mighty and terrible lords of the wilderness, the cunning, the wary and the grim"

Theodore Roosevelt, Khartoum, 1910

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: 500Nitro]
#237395 - 02/11/13 01:25 PM

Quote:

NitroX

I don't think Searcy's go back any more than any other makes
from what we see on this forum and others.

I think people would say.

500NX, I've known Butch Searcy for some years and there is nothing wrong with his doubles. He simply will take one of his rifles back for adjustments or tuning even if you buy it second hand. He keeps records on all his rifles, as to measurements and loads for regulation. I can guarantee you that you will not find a double rifle that is better regulated than a Searcy. and if ANYTHING goes south on one of his rifles no matter how old it is he will fix it, unless someone else has worked on it! I know of one of his rifles that was bought used and used for testing loads that has over 7000 rounds through it and is still shooting to regulation and tight on face. It has had zero problems.

..............................................Mac!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Nordmann
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#237401 - 02/11/13 08:18 PM

Dugaboy1 - Quote: I can guarantee you that you will not find a double rifle that is better regulated than a Searcy.

Thats a hell of a statement!

I can't even guarantee that I will get up out of my bed tomorrow morning.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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CptCurl
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: Nordmann]
#237404 - 02/11/13 10:26 PM

Quote:

Dugaboy1 - Quote: I can guarantee you that you will not find a double rifle that is better regulated than a Searcy.

Thats a hell of a statement!

I can't even guarantee that I will get up out of my bed tomorrow morning.

Hyperbole, undoubtedly. But certainly a statement of great confidence.

I've neither fired nor owned a Searcy, so I can't compare; but I do know there are a lot of finely regulated doubles out there.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: CptCurl]
#237417 - 03/11/13 05:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Dugaboy1 - Quote: I can guarantee you that you will not find a double rifle that is better regulated than a Searcy.

Thats a hell of a statement!

I can't even guarantee that I will get up out of my bed tomorrow morning.

Hyperbole, undoubtedly. But certainly a statement of great confidence.

I've neither fired nor owned a Searcy, so I can't compare; but I do know there are a lot of finely regulated doubles out there.

Curl

Yes you are correct that is one hell of a statement, but true none the less!

I didn’t say that a B. Searcy double rifle was better regulated than the best. However what I am saying they are regulated as well as the best, and take a back seat to nobody’s double in that respect!

Butch will tell you himself, that his rifles were never meant to compete on the same level as makers like H&H, Purdy and many other well known names of quality double rifle makers. What he will tell you is his rifles will regulate as well as any of them, and work just as well if cared for properly, and if anything on one of his rifles goes south, he will fix it, even if you are the down the line owner of a second hand rifle. The one thing that will negate that warrantee is if the rifle has been sent to a gunsmith who buggered it.

If you call him on the phone about the regulation load of a used Searcy you have bought he will look it up and tell you on the phone. If that call is about something not working properly, he will ask you to send it to him so he can check it out, and fix it if needed! This is for life of the rifle, not the owner! All it will cost you is shipping!

I’d say that makes a B. Searcy worth considering!

Like CaptCurl, I’ve never owned a Searcy double but have shot several, and have friends who own them, for may years. The Searcy has, like any other product, improved over the years in over all fit and finish, but not in reliability which is top drawer, IMO!

............................................

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NitroX
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Re: Zanardini Oxford 470 N.E. double? [Re: DUGABOY1]
#237621 - 09/11/13 05:40 PM

Quote:

... I’ve never owned a Searcy double but have shot several, and have friends who own them, for may years. The Searcy has, like any other product, improved over the years in over all fit and finish, but not in reliability which is top drawer, IMO!

Especially when an owner is trying to offload his after having to return it at least three times for repairs ...

And yes that is a real example. Luckily the guy was in the USA so the benefit of "being able to return it to the factory for repairs" was a true benefit ....

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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