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buckstix
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Loc: Whitetail Country
Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info
      #220366 - 27/11/12 09:46 PM

Hello All,

I'm hoping someone can help me. I've been offered a cased Dan'l Fraser Double Rifle in 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R. It was cased with a few accessories. I don't have access to the rifle right now, and have only basic memory information based on my last seeing the rifle 4 weeks ago.

I do recall seeing the 2-line original Caliber and Cordite loading data stamped on the bottom of each barrel. And, in between the caliber and load data was stamped the 9.3x74R caliber and then after the Cordite data, it had the 9.3 loading. All the stampings were professional "one-line" stamped and not "single-letter" stamped.

Would this indicate that the conversion was done by a larger retailer / builder as opposed to a basement gunsmith?

I can't recall the type of the action or barrels, etc. But it was marked Fraser. I've never owned a double rifle of any kind so I really don't know what to look for before buying. Any information or guidance as to what detailes I should look for would be appreciated.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
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Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220367 - 27/11/12 10:26 PM


"All the stampings were professional "one-line" stamped and not "single-letter" stamped.

Would this indicate that the conversion was done by a larger retailer / builder as opposed to a basement gunsmith?"


Not really.

IF the conversion was done in an EU country or a country where guns have to be proofed (as opposed to the US), then
it should have reproof marks or symbols on it - as well as the info you said is already stamped on it.

Each country uses different symbols for proofing so no point is listing them all. If UK done, it should have the new load in Lbs per Squ Inch or something like that.

A photo of the barrel flats would be best - would take 2 minutes to sort it out.


Re calibre conversions, not a problem if done correctly.

A lot of Rigby's were done in the 70's and 80's to 9.3 and 375 Flanged Magnum. I have one.
Can't think of the guy who did it but he now builds Doubles under the Jeffrey name and used to under the Rugby name.


If the conversion was done in the US, I would like to know who. If someone like JJ at Champlin Arms, all well and good.

I am sure others will be along with more advice.

Can you get a photo ?

or a link to the gun if on a web site ?

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1145
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #220369 - 27/11/12 10:36 PM

Thanks for the reply,

Sorry, no photos. I can only go by memory. I'm going to be seeing the rifle in person again on Thursday, and was hoping to get some pointers to look for when I get my hands on it again. I don't seem to recall that the 9.3 stamping had any reference to Lbs or even a "load". I think one line had "9.3 x 74R" and another line had a only a "bullet weight".

I will look for other countries proof marks, I'm very familiar with most from my collecting European cartridge revolvers.

When you say not a problem with "caliber conversion" if done properly, would you know how this affects value?

Are there different kinds of Fraser actions on double rifles that I should look for?

Thanks for your help.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220370 - 27/11/12 10:42 PM



Value
It would have slightly decreased value compared to
100% original.


If you are going to see it, can you take a photo ?
Do you have a mobile phone ?

Fraser actions - like any english maker, they will or did make what was ordered by the customer.

Fraser did have a style though. Suggest do a google search or look on guns international, Champlin Arms etc.

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1145
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #220372 - 27/11/12 11:03 PM

Hello 500Nitro,

Thank you.

When you say slightly decreased value compared to 100% original, would you say, 10%, 15%, 20%, ?

I've been searching the net for the last week but can find very little info on Fraser Double rifles except for the few with "very big" price tags. I'd like to see different action types if they made them. Side-lock, Box-lock, etc.

I will likely buy (or trade for) the Fraser Double this coming weekend, but I don't like to go in totally blind. I'm just not familuar at all with doubles, but think I might get a "deal" on this one since its been altered from original. I think Fraser is a good name, correct?

I recall that the leather trunk case did not have a "Fraser" label inside the cover, and that the label name was British, perhaps being that of a retailer. Maybe this is who did the conversion to 9.3.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1375
Loc: Alaska
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220373 - 27/11/12 11:14 PM

I'd want to shoot it to make sure it was regulated.

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1145
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: casper50]
      #220374 - 27/11/12 11:23 PM

Hello casper50,

Shooting won't be an option on this deal. This is going to be pretty much, a cut & dried, "look-at-it" and "get-it" - kind of deal. A real crap-shoot on my part. Just trying to dot the I's and cross the T's.

I've found references to Fraser doubles selling for $17,000 up to $65,000. I'm trying to determine the features that affect value.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3537
Loc: Colorado
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220379 - 28/11/12 01:05 AM

Buckstix, unless you are getting into this gun very reasonably, I would do your best to get the seller to agree to a three day inspection period. That way, you could shoot it over the weekend and get a better idea of what you are dealing with. A double that won't regulate can be a very frustrating exercise and being your first, could put you off doubles completely.
One positive is that the 9.3X74R is not too different from the original 360 ballistically. You may find that the Fraser is bored for a slightly bigger bullet than the .366" bullet of the 9.3. Maybe .368" but I am not sure if this will have much effect in shooting it.

Take a good look at the bores. That is one area that can hurt value - bad bores.
Fraser made doubles in different grades and on different actions as 500Nitro says and yes, Daniel Fraser rifles in best grade are as good as any so if bought right, you probably aren't going out on a limb too badly.
A Fraser in 9.3X74R would be a very usable rifle here in the states.
Good luck! Keep us posted.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
Posts: 1145
Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: Huvius]
      #220384 - 28/11/12 01:42 AM

Thank you Huvius,

As mentioned, shooting is not an option. This will be a "fast" transaction and a "gamble" for me. Like most people, I'm looking for a "big strike" for a "modest" investment.

Is there anything that I can look for to determine what grade this might be? Features that would be more valuable or desirable. Like, ejectors vs extractors - Side-lock vs Box-lock - etc.

I really have no clue about Fraser.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220388 - 28/11/12 02:12 AM


"Is there anything that I can look for to determine what grade this might be? Features that would be more valuable or desirable. Like, ejectors vs extractors - Side-lock vs Box-lock - etc.

I really have no clue about Fraser. "


Most people are the same, Frasers are really hard to work on
value wise IMHO (well for me).


By the way, what are they asing $$$ wise, we can at least say if you are in the ball park or way over the top.


Ejectors worth more.
Sidelock worth more than boxlock.
(Just remember that Fraser made best boxlocks - if that can be done !!! - and so his best is still up there even if a boxlock.
Engraving adds value
Condition adds value


"As mentioned, shooting is not an option. This will be a "fast" transaction and a "gamble" for me."

I don't like the above, especially for the first time buyer.
Experienced but maybe, we might take the risk.


Don't want to deter you but I am surprised they won't let you shoot it ? Do they know something they are not saying ?

Have they shot it ?


Back in 4 hours to look at the answers.

.

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StephenCoker
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Reged: 01/12/11
Posts: 140
Loc: AR, United States of America
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #220389 - 28/11/12 02:44 AM

Both .500Nitro and Huvius offer sound advice - especially, since we're flying blind on this one. Bore condition on any double rifle is paramount in valuation, and may be more relevant to valuation than a conversion itself. The decrease in valuation due to conversion is subjective, but I'd guess 20%. That's strictly a swag on my part and would depend on other characteristics of the rifle, the case, and accessories (bullet moulds, a Davidson telescopic site in Fraser mounts, etc.). I like my Fraser's, and I'm an avid shooter and hunter, not just a collector. I use my Scottish rifles regularly in the field. Even so, a cartridge conversion would certainly prompt me to offer considerably less. Best of luck!

--------------------
www.stephencokerandco.com
Uniquely superlative rifles in the Scottish tradition.

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casper50
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Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1375
Loc: Alaska
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #220390 - 28/11/12 02:46 AM

As mentioned, doubles that won't regulate are trouble. Double trouble = money, lots of money sometimes. If you can't get a solid "it will regulate with a __" group at __yards" or at least a 3 day inspection I'd pass. Do you know how many people have been burned trying to make a "big strike" for a little money? Lots more than have made the big strike.

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
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Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #220391 - 28/11/12 02:54 AM

Quote:

By the way, what are they asing $$$ wise, we can at least say if you are in the ball park or way over the top.



The seller has it priced at 17K USD but that is mute since he has expressed an interest in a couple of my items. I have far, far, less than that invested in my items.

Quote:

"As mentioned, shooting is not an option. This will be a "fast" transaction and a "gamble" for me." .............................................................................

I don't like the above, especially for the first time buyer.
Experienced but maybe, we might take the risk.

Don't want to deter you but I am surprised they won't let you shoot it ? Do they know something they are not saying ?

Have they shot it ?



The seller is very trustworthy and I have done trades with him before, ... and this one just recently.

see: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=299688#Post299688

I see this as possibly yet another opportunity for me, so I'm trying to get a fast education on Frasers. The last deal with the Alex Henry was a real "windfall" for me.


--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220392 - 28/11/12 03:07 AM


buckstix


The gun wouldn't be in Australia or sold by someone in Australia would it ?

Reason for asking is I know of a Daniel Fraser double converted to 9.3 that is for sale for US$17k.




OK re trade, understand now, at least you know who you are dealing with. That is different to some joe blo down the road trying to flog something.

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
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Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #220396 - 28/11/12 03:18 AM

No, I found that one in my internet searching. That one is suppose to be documented as converted by J. Rigby. This one has no such documentation and resides nearby where I live.

Is that one you mention for 17K in US dollars, or Austrailian dollars?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220398 - 28/11/12 03:51 AM



"Is that one you mention for 17K in US dollars, or Austrailian dollars?"


US dollars.

Also to consider, the seller is a personal friend
of mine and 3 things.

1. Everything he owns is top notch, top of the tree
in terms of condition etc.

2. That gun has it's history, is cased with accessories.

3. His prices haven't changed for 10 years, regardless
of the exchange rate. Reason being, he isn't that interested in selling so take the $17k with a pinch of salt.




Unless it is a top notch gun - and I would use the one discussed above as a comparison - then I would say $17k
is a bit much unless all good.


It's a pity I didn't have more time as I could have got a photo of the NEW re proof marks of the one above and you could use it to compare to the one you are looking at.

.

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buckstix
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Reged: 07/11/12
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Loc: Whitetail Country
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #220399 - 28/11/12 03:58 AM

Quote:

It's a pity I didn't have more time as I could have got a photo of the NEW re proof marks of the one above and you could use it to compare to the one you are looking at.



Yes, that would sure help me. Is there any chance he could send you a photo of the bottom of the barrels?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Huvius
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Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220400 - 28/11/12 05:40 AM

The way I see it, if you are comfortable doing the deal, then go ahead. Your Henry is certainly top notch IMO and if that is indicative of the quality your man is into, you probably don't have much to worry about.
That is what working a trade is all about and if you feel that you have the opportunity to get into something you otherwise couldn't, and come out ahead value wise, then go for it!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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500Nitro
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Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220402 - 28/11/12 06:18 AM

Quote:


Yes, that would sure help me. Is there any chance he could send you a photo of the bottom of the barrels?




I doubt it but I will ask.

I'll see if I have a photo of my Rigby barrels
as they will have similar. Probably done similar time
as well as he had racks of them (Doubles that had been rebored).

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gatsby
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Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #220407 - 28/11/12 07:25 AM

Sometimes you just have to roll the dice. You asked your questions seen the photos and done some comparisons. It is difficult to purchase a gun that is out of the country, always some degree of risk. Isn't that a bit of the fun?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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buckstix
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Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: gatsby]
      #220408 - 28/11/12 08:22 AM

Hello gatsby,

Yes, I understand that. I've been dealing in guns for over 45 years. But a little guidance goes a long way to help the odds.

I'm looking for those "little facts" that I can look for, to determine if this is the "lowest" quality or a "better" quality double rifle.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220409 - 28/11/12 08:30 AM


OK RE "I'm looking for those "little facts" that I can look for, to determine if this is the "lowest" quality or a "better" quality double rifle."


Boxlock

If the gun has a chequered side panel BEHIND the
edge of the boxlock action, an indicator of a higher grade.


More to follow.

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: buckstix]
      #220410 - 28/11/12 08:32 AM

I think I know your seller and have dealt with him before. He's a pretty solid guy. Something attracted you to this gun, what was it?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #220411 - 28/11/12 08:33 AM

This gun has them
http://www.gunsinternational.com/DANL-FRASER-BEST-SXS-RIFLE-450-400-3-1-4.cfm?gun_id=100288670


Also, see the carved fences.

and Stalking safety


On the other hand, just to confuse everything, this gun is also called "best" but doesn't have two of the above but it does have scalloped fences !!!

http://www.gunsinternational.com/DANIEL-FRASER-Best-Boxlock-Double-Rifle.cfm?gun_id=100222520

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500Nitro
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Re: Dan'l Fraser 400-360 converted to 9.3x74R - seeking info [Re: 500Nitro]
      #220412 - 28/11/12 08:34 AM



By the way, I like Frasers and a good Fraser
is still worth owning.

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